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Thread: Edmonton Airports "Beer and Bull" Session

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    Default Edmonton Airports "Beer and Bull" Session

    Event: Edmonton Airports "Beer and Bull Session"
    Date: Thursday, Nov. 15, 2007
    Location: Pub 1905 (10525 Jasper Ave.)
    Time: 5:30 p.m. (17:30)


    Snacks and the first round on Edmonton Airports (for C2E members and lurkers).

    Why doesn't Edmonton have a Frankfurt flight yet? What are the the prospects for more air service to Europe and Asia?

    If you have a question about air service in Edmonton, this is a chance to ask Peter McCart, Vice-President, Marketing, Edmonton Airports and Carol Hutchins, Director, Air Service Development, (aka that woman from Toronto).

    Please PM me if you are going to attend (just in case the group gets too big and we have to change locales).

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    Crap...I have another committment
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    For those who can't make it, is it possible to submit questions to be posed?
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    The sesssion will be quite informal. So everyone should have a chance to get their questions answered.

    However, if you really want to send one in, I'll ensure it gets to Peter and Carol so they are prepared.

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    I think there's an informal boycott of Pub 1905 on right now.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I thought that was just Lindsey and Ian!

    Where else would be a good place downtown? Perhaps the upstairs of Sherlocks?

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    The Lux has a $2 martini happy hour every Thursday, but it may be a tad too loud and crowded for decent conversations.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Jim,

    Hold it where you want to hold it. The topic will bring people to the venue.
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    You bugger Jim.

    I will be on AC flying to LHR that evening (direct flight of course)!

    Any chance of making this a regular spot every few months?
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    ^ I am getting thirsty...

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    I think there's an informal boycott of Pub 1905 on right now.

    You mean not just me? Let's put it this way, hold this event anywhere else, I'll join in.

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    Well, if Amber Brewing Company is suppling some beer, how about a community hall then?
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    It's really a shame Molson's has shut down. The old log cabin would've been the perfect place.
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    We'll keep it at Pub 1905 and see how it goes.

    We'll try another location next time to attract the boycotters.

    I'm sure someone from the community will post a fine synopsis of the event on C2E for all to read and discuss.

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    I am in for Thursday!!

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    I can't attend, however, I wouldn't be able to attend as I will never spend one dime in that establishment given the way they have treated long time customers and staff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD
    I can't attend, however, I wouldn't be able to attend as I will never spend one dime in that establishment given the way they have treated long time customers and staff.
    Yep. No more chances with that place...too bad this is a good event.

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    Well it was a worthwhile event. There were about six representatives from Edmonton Airports in attendance, and we all had several chances for one on one chats with everyone from Peter and Jim to "the lady from Toronto", Carol.

    My impressions of the reps - - young, articulate, enthusiastic, knowledgeable, sharp, aggressive, progressive and more.

    After this session I feel YEG will move onward, upward, forward to
    the future. There are so many different problems that an airport
    encounters on the way to being one of the "biggies", but from what I heard, we've got a great bunch of people who are working hard to make YEG bigger and better.
    Fly Edmonton first. Support EIA

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    Thanks for the report. I would have liked to have been able to attend -- next time!

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    Tonight was definitely informational - thank you Jim, Peter, Debbie, Carol, Traci and I'm sorry, I believe I'm forgetting the name of one more lady that works with Peter (or perhaps I'm confused... too many new faces tonight). It's nice to see that everyone who attended from ERAA is so passionate about their job and it's appreciated that they would take time out of their lives to share that passion and their insight with us. Thank you.

    Peter, Traci - as always, you continue to impress me. Jim - sorry, I don't remember talking to you at the Fly-Edmonton 1st AGM but I'm glad we got a chance to chat tonight and I was really impressed with you as well. I can't wait for the next B&B so we can continue where we left off...

    Cheers!

    -- Leigh Anne

    PS. For those that missed out... you **REALLY** missed out. (-:

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    PS. For those that missed out... you **REALLY** missed out. (-:
    Sure make us feel worse than we already do!

    I am really happy to hear that it was such a worthwhile event...does not surprise me though!

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    How about a short summary for those who could not attend?

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    That was really fun. Maybe it was nice that only a handful showed up. Those who did, had an ear. I don't think there was any explosive "inside" news to share. The point the Airport is trying to make is that it is "work in progress" and yes, they get just as pi$$ed when a flight goes somewhere else and not here.

    Although they politely played down the "airline game" as fun, there is a real sense of competitiveness. The magnitude of the issues from foreign trade zones to just not knowing where Edmonton is to stereotypical views on us will be a constant battle.

    Peter McCart dived into the big global picture of how Canada is set up to do business or lack thereof and how Canada, not just Edmonton is missing a wonderful opportunity to play globally. I share a passion and a vision with Mr. Vanstone as I believe Port Alberta can be everything we expect. Thats one aspect.

    Ms. Carol Hutchins was fantastic to converse with. Toronto is the mass of the airline industry in Canada and contacts are easier to obtain. She is very confident that the wave is behind her and oddly enough mentioned airlines that are not in the rumor mix. Not quite her words but she feels "closer" to landing something.

    Jim Rudolph was excited about the opportunities. Growth, expansion and enjoys the rest of the regions airports for what they are and what they do for Edmonton. He plans on having more of these meetings in the near future.

    The Edmonton Airport Authority held an Infrastructure Coffee Break, they called it this morning. I invited myself. He he. Plans are "go" for the terminal expansion, looking towards a third and possibly a fourth runway if needed. The airport is nearing the final planning stages of a new administration tower that will be home to Nav Canada's new control tower cab. Hotel will break ground in the spring and take about a year and a half to complete. Construction costs and land issues have hampered the Marriott's plans.

    No big news. No real juicy inside rumours but a super way of meeting key airport big-wheels and offering some passive input. My grateful thanks to those who did come and to Jim for his gracious hospitality. Thanks again.

    PS ~ Doesn't mean we will be nice all the time though! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by aviationphoto
    She is very confident that the wave is behind her and oddly enough mentioned airlines that are not in the rumor mix. Not quite her words but she feels "closer" to landing something.
    So which airlines are not in the rumor mix? Let us know and we'll stop harping on Edmonton Airports trying to get them.

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    We will have another "Beer and Bull" session in late winter/early spring.

    By the way, Pub 1905 did a great job of serving us and the atmosphere was perfect for a little airport chat.

    We will change the venue for the next session and perhaps hold it in another part of the city.

    Thanks to the nine C2E members and lurkers who showed up. The passion and interest expressed on this forum and in sessions like we had tonight never ceases to amaze me.

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    I like the idea of perhaps holding it in another part of the city but if Pub 1905 did a good job why change the venue?

    Would have been there if I could have...next time for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044
    Quote Originally Posted by aviationphoto
    She is very confident that the wave is behind her and oddly enough mentioned airlines that are not in the rumor mix. Not quite her words but she feels "closer" to landing something.
    So which airlines are not in the rumor mix? Let us know and we'll stop harping on Edmonton Airports trying to get them.
    LOL. Everything would be out of context. So there's no point. No one was mentioned that is sitting on the doorstep. It was a case of pointing out airlines that have not used their freebies into Canada and making dialogue with those carriers about Edmonton. Thats as far as its gone.

    Even the marketing departments at airlines have to come back to HQ with some information as well. So its nice chit-chat from what I gathered. Somehow I knew that sentence would be jumped on. If there is someone out there with a spare aluminum tube, they kept those cards close to their chest tonight.

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    So what was their explanation regarding FRA and why we were left out?

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    I'm really sorry I was unable to make it to this session; I had another commitment. But I'll look forward to the next one, and I agree with DebraW: if Pub 1905 did a good job, why change the location?
    Almost always open to debate...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    So what was their explanation regarding FRA and why we were left out?
    There was no real explanation why Edmonton didn't get THIS Frankfurt flight. We had a quick talk and we could only speculate. It almost gets as foggy as "who shot Kennedy." Thats the airline business as a whole.

    The furball is in Calgary again and with the Vancouver Olympics over the horizon, airlines might be looking for alternates or supplements to YVR. There could be a billion reasons and if anyone really knew, it wouldn't make logical sense anyway. It never does.

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    And as LO 044 asked what airlines are potentially looking at YEG?I have heard Icelandair mentioned among airport ranks as the icelandics love to shop,but that would likely only be offered as seasonal charters...Damn I should have just went...

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    Peter told me that because the route to Asia is to the North, YEG is as close to that region as is YVR, so they are not giving up on trying to attract flights to and from that region.

    He also told me that we can expect ongoing construction for the next five years, and if double-digit growth continues, there could be construction for the next twenty years.

    He also said that YEG is often criticized for being so far out of the city. He said that it's starting to pay off, because in comparison YYC has no room for expansion, while there is plenty of available land at and surrounding YEG.

    Having met and chatted with Carol, it now makes sense to me that she works out of Toronto. She's close to airine offices and has quick access to Toronto, New York, Chicago, etc.
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    good to hear all went well...but things like "3rd or 4th" runway talk scare me considering how much capacity we have with 2.

    but all in all happy to hear it was well received and i look forward to getting to the next one should it be at a different local.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat
    (...)

    He also said that YEG is often criticized for being so far out of the city. He said that it's starting to pay off, because in comparison YYC has no room for expansion, while there is plenty of available land at and surrounding YEG.

    (...)
    Funny, how in hindsight that decision to place the noisemaker outside the city and give it room to grow paid off. Now if we only supported it from Day 1 and gave it the access it deserved...
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    good to hear all went well...but things like "3rd or 4th" runway talk scare me considering how much capacity we have with 2.

    but all in all happy to hear it was well received and i look forward to getting to the next one should it be at a different local.
    I was surprised with the 4th runway idea at first. But considering that parallel taxiways to move planes around each other vs. a short GA runway to keep it close to ramp 2, it made great sense. Don't take it as gospel, the EAA is thinking outside the box right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat
    (...)

    He also said that YEG is often criticized for being so far out of the city. He said that it's starting to pay off, because in comparison YYC has no room for expansion, while there is plenty of available land at and surrounding YEG.

    (...)
    Funny, how in hindsight that decision to place the noisemaker outside the city and give it room to grow paid off. Now if we only supported it from Day 1 and gave it the access it deserved...

    But if you look at the opposite point of view - if the airport were closer or in town the issue with the muni would have been non existant and we may have not been overtaken by Calgary in the 80s and 90s. Now we are playing catchup and may never catch Calgary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat
    Having met and chatted with Carol, it now makes sense to me that she works out of Toronto. She's close to airine offices and has quick access to Toronto, New York, Chicago, etc.
    I might buy that argument if YVR and YYC do the same thing. If not, then what the heck makes YEG unique such that it has to outsource to Toronto? So far, I don't buy it.

    I'd also like to know what other clients Carol has, if she's not exclusively YEG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252

    But if you look at the opposite point of view - if the airport were closer or in town the issue with the muni would have been non existant and we may have not been overtaken by Calgary in the 80s and 90s. Now we are playing catchup and may never catch Calgary.
    No sites closer were available. However, define closer when Edmonton itself wanted to rid itself of noise and provide a place for the airport to grow...and understanding that Namao was DND and the Americans don't like sharing...

    Distance is really tertiary in the airport debate. Choking off transit access and roadway access is the real issue....distance is the symptom of the problem of access. Remove the stop lights and volia, gain 10-12 minutes on a good day, 30 minutes on a bad day (congested Gateway vs free flowing)...

    Choke off Namao like YEG, same whine would result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat
    Having met and chatted with Carol, it now makes sense to me that she works out of Toronto. She's close to airine offices and has quick access to Toronto, New York, Chicago, etc.
    I might buy that argument if YVR and YYC do the same thing. If not, then what the heck makes YEG unique such that it has to outsource to Toronto? So far, I don't buy it.

    I'd also like to know what other clients Carol has, if she's not exclusively YEG.
    I guess they will have to defend themselves on this issue. The question I have is what does hurt to be Toronto? Why would the person have to be located in Edmonton? Carol says she is on the EAA payroll, not a consulting firm. The loyalty, trust and conflict of interest issues are your concern? I didn't get that vibe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aviationphoto
    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat
    Having met and chatted with Carol, it now makes sense to me that she works out of Toronto. She's close to airine offices and has quick access to Toronto, New York, Chicago, etc.
    I might buy that argument if YVR and YYC do the same thing. If not, then what the heck makes YEG unique such that it has to outsource to Toronto? So far, I don't buy it.

    I'd also like to know what other clients Carol has, if she's not exclusively YEG.
    I guess they will have to defend themselves on this issue. The question I have is what does hurt to be Toronto? Why would the person have to be located in Edmonton? Carol says she is on the EAA payroll, not a consulting firm. The loyalty, trust and conflict of interest issues are your concern? I didn't get that vibe.
    At the root of it, I would like to know how this job is (or is not) filled in comparison to other airports. If (IF) YEG's unique in this regard, and results are not forthcoming, might there be a correlation?
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    as much as we complain where YEG is...we will probably look back in about 10 yrs and say thank god....for all respects including noise and pollution....to access and size/development potential.

    However, until the AHD we had reason to complain....with AHD anywhere in the city realistically can be there in 30min or so...which is IMO the bar for travel time.

    We still need to work on public transportation with buses for now and future LRT by say 2015/2020...but we have to be realistic in that YVR and YYC dont have LRT (yet) and they are significantly more prone to it being viable.
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    The marketing system is intact locally as well. This isn't unique to business at all. Maybe sounds funny because it wasn't done before? It's going to take a couple of years to get this ball rolling. In a couple of years, I am sure the highend will review the process.

    Aviation is as slow as it wants to be. It took me a while to get that.

    The airport has to keep the plan rolling. Keep costs down and keep pounding the pavement. Historically, tranborder was aweful in Edmonton. Then America West came in, their competitors wanted nothing of it and wham, no ones complaining. This market is much bigger, so we need the America West of international travel.

    Air Canada closed the LHR hole for that very reason. British Airways and Virgin won't touch us now.. too small. They are the "bad guys" in that realm. Who else has that ability in Europe? Air France, KLM? Who will spur competition here. All it takes is one move.

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    I would like to know what her successes were over the past year?

    What routes, increases in metal etc. can be attributed to her actions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    I would like to know what her successes were over the past year?

    What routes, increases in metal etc. can be attributed to her actions?
    She just started!!!!!!!!!!!! Couple years!!

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    I know the ERAA doesn't have control over this, but I hope that the city of Edmonton starts to add lights to YEG soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    good to hear all went well...but things like "3rd or 4th" runway talk scare me considering how much capacity we have with 2.
    Agreed. A 4th runway? There isn't even a 3rd one yet. The current runways are adequate enough for YYC's operations. The fact that they are close to the terminal is a bonus. Many airlines will request certain runways at airports so their taxi time and fuel isn't being wasted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    But if you look at the opposite point of view - if the airport were closer or in town the issue with the muni would have been non existant and we may have not been overtaken by Calgary in the 80s and 90s. Now we are playing catchup and may never catch Calgary.
    Great point. I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    I might buy that argument if YVR and YYC do the same thing. If not, then what the heck makes YEG unique such that it has to outsource to Toronto? So far, I don't buy it. I'd also like to know what other clients Carol has, if she's not exclusively YEG.
    Again, great point. I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    We still need to work on public transportation with buses for now and future LRT by say 2015/2020...but we have to be realistic in that YVR and YYC dont have LRT (yet) and they are significantly more prone to it being viable.
    YVR has bus service and will have the Skytrain before the Olympic Games. YYC has bus service and can easily extend their LRT with not much in the way. They in fact have not extended their LRT line to YYC because it simply isn't viable. I don't know how we can even talk about the LRT to YEG. Take care of the right of ways first, keep them and then use them in 20 years. YEG has no bus service and would have to plow through new areas being built up to the south and deal with the County of Leduc to get the LRT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brentk
    I know the ERAA doesn't have control over this, but I hope that the city of Edmonton starts to add lights to YEG soon.
    I think that is a provincial responsibility at this time, isn't it?

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    Holy mackeral...tough crowd this morning. Should of came to the meeting!

    The 4th runway could be the 3rd or the 3rd could become the 4th or none at all. We wanted long term planning and we are getting it. By the time all this gets implemented, I hope to be wheel chair square dancing at the Old and Forgotten Seniors Home in Phoenix!

    Its like when my daughter doesn't like any ideas of where to have lunch but doesn't come up with her own suggestion, we still have no place to go eat yet. It feels like one of those senarios. Just driving around wasting gas.

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    I totally forgot about this meeting. If I was able to stop by, I would have reiterated fixing the signs leaving YEG and approaching the QE2 so that people know how to actually get to Edmonton.
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    I'm glad I went to that Beer and Bull session last night. Those people from ERAA were great, upbeat people to talk with. I did enjoy having a chat with Tracy Bednard, the PR person, partly as she was originally from GP.

    Sure I didn't hear anything earthshaking, but I think that a new corporate logo or something like that is expected in early 2008. The $1B expansion will be tied into this.

    As for what's going on with the Courtyard By Marriott...the reason for the delay is an ongoing disagreement between NavCan and the developer over developing the hotel site, I think. But this is expected to get cleared within a few months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aviationphoto
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    I would like to know what her successes were over the past year?

    What routes, increases in metal etc. can be attributed to her actions?
    She just started!!!!!!!!!!!! Couple years!!
    But I keep hearing this lady has great connections. She is not starting from square one.

    These people are great at Talking the Talk. Let's see them walk the walk.

    Results are what matter at the end of the day anyways.

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    If we get a new WOW flight to the moon, I will make sure we thank Carol for you. Give it a rest already.

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    It has been a tough crowd today because the expectations for YEG have been raised so high and we are not seeing tangible results.

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    Oops darn windoze computers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    It has been a tough crowd today because the expectations for YEG have been raised so high and we are not seeing tangible results.
    Did anyone ask any of the really direct, pointed questions, or was this a t-ball event? If the latter, then what was the point?
    [email protected][email protected]: the 5th Horseman of the Apocalypse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    It has been a tough crowd today because the expectations for YEG have been raised so high and we are not seeing tangible results.
    In some ways we have built our own expectations because someone else is having a better birthday party. It is going well. Next year, the airport is about to TRIPLE since the low days of '94. Everytime I look out my window, I am amazed every day. To me one more flight per day with 230 seats to Frankfurt equals two Westjet 737's. Overall, it means very little. I want an Apple iPhone but I can't have that just yet either. (They don't sell the iPhone in Canada yet and yes, I am mad at Steve Jobs for that.) But I will get one and so will Edmonton get a Frankfurt flight... just won't be this Christmas!!! Can we end this now??

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    On that note I think I need a cold beer.

    Thanks for the interesting conversation and to those who attended the meeting and provided updates

    I hope to attend next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeK
    Sure I didn't hear anything earthshaking.
    The problem with this meet and greet thing is that most if not all people attending are us, on C2E and SSP. We already know a lot about the airport and airline industry in terms of flights, development, etc. I'm sure someone on here will say that unless you work for EIA, there is so much you don't know so comments shouldn't be made. But this is why we ask these questions. Does it really hurt for EIA to say we talked with Lufthansa and they declined to get us service? This is the type of news we would like to hear instead of we are confident of getting some new service with some airline at some point in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeK
    As for what's going on with the Courtyard By Marriott...the reason for the delay is an ongoing disagreement between NavCan and the developer over developing the hotel site, I think. But this is expected to get cleared within a few months.
    Mike did you get this info from one of the EIA reps? If so, this is the best and only news given so far from this meeting that is a headline. Unleast we know about the delay and why it's happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeK
    In some ways we have built our own expectations because someone else is having a better birthday party. It is going well. Next year, the airport is about to TRIPLE since the low days of '94. Everytime I look out my window, I am amazed every day. To me one more flight per day with 230 seats to Frankfurt equals two Westjet 737's. Overall, it means very little.
    No, it means a lot.

    First, if another airline takes the step of giving us international service. Other airlines will take notice and perhaps might look at YEG as a profitable international destination. Many major airlines are shifting away from local routes to international routes where more money can be made on account of no low-cost competition.

    Second, an extra flight to Winnipeg for example on a WJ 737 will mean nothing in terms of passenger numbers connecting through YYC. If you get a flight to FRA, much less people will fly through YYC when compared to an extra flight to Abbotsford, Winnipeg or Saskatoon being added.

    Third, our expectations are not out of this world. Look at YOW's international service compared to ours. Look at YOW's passenger numbers and proximity to other major airports compared to ours yet look at YOW's international destinations compared to ours.

    Everyone appreciates the people working at EIA but we would like to hear more substance on some of these issues because i believe we're not the typical Edmontonian watching the TV and seeing that Port Alberta will be great. We would like maybe a timeline and some info about who is interested (CN or CP) or who isn't interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeK
    Sure I didn't hear anything earthshaking.
    The problem with this meet and greet thing is that most if not all people attending are us, on C2E and SSP. We already know a lot about the airport and airline industry in terms of flights, development, etc. I'm sure someone on here will say that unless you work for EIA, there is so much you don't know so comments shouldn't be made. But this is why we ask these questions. Does it really hurt for EIA to say we talked with Lufthansa and they declined to get us service? This is the type of news we would like to hear instead of we are confident of getting some new service with some airline at some point in time.
    I'm telling it like it is. They never mentioned explicitly anything really juicy or anything with a Wow factor in the session. I'm already very, very aware there's probably a lot of info that they can't divulge right away for various reasons before they do official announcements and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeK
    As for what's going on with the Courtyard By Marriott...the reason for the delay is an ongoing disagreement between NavCan and the developer over developing the hotel site, I think. But this is expected to get cleared within a few months.
    Mike did you get this info from one of the EIA reps? If so, this is the best and only news given so far from this meeting that is a headline. Unleast we know about the delay and why it's happening.
    Yes, that's what I was told by Traci. Very reassuring bit of info.

    The third quote you posted was actually Aviationphoto's, not mine.

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    Don't get me wrong, a Lufthansa A330 would be nice to see around here. If the Airport had its way they would all be here. Its not their decision because they ultimately do not own the aircraft. I am sorry, you will never get an answer on this. It will never come. Buy tickets, fly airplanes that is the best way to get a carrier's attention.

    The answer regarding the Marriott is here twice and yes unless you phone the Marriott yourself, that's your answer.

    There's no one answer to anything here. Believe me. It has a big, big, big picture, lots of history and many charactors. If you really want to help us out, find an unemployed friend and ask him/her to apply for a job at one of these fine establishments here at the airport. We could use the help!!

    Its a big show out here but a wee bit short of actors. Many of your dreams are locked up in labour shortages. Lets fix that first.

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    My synopsis. The Guinness was great . Cool but not too cold, nice thick head and taste? Something to die for. Thanks Jim.
    I had a nice long chat with Carol and as has been mentioned before on this thread no one has a real explanation for LH's decsion to go to Calgary. As for AC to reiterate the obvious they have no plan to upgrade service to YEG unless they have to for threatened or real competition. Nothing personal just their business model of hub and spoke and we ain't a hub. So we have to look for another suitor and Carol was saying that there are many low cost carriers in Europe who are interested. Wouldn't say who but there again who wants to announce an engagement to world only to get stood up at the alter again. That would make everyone on this web site a little frosty again. Either way it probably will not be a legacy carrier.
    YEG has to improve its regional connections in order to make it attractive to an international carrier. Who knows but maybe that is why LH went to YYC because of all those connections that AC provides.
    Perception. Carol's major job function is to change people's percetion of Edmonton if they know of our existance at all. She has to hit them with all the statistics to show why they should be investing in YEG. It is a tough job because the people who do know of the oil sands think of Calgary. We are barely on the radar. Who knew?
    We are not completely out of the picture with Zoom but if they do come back into this market it won't be Gatwick.
    As for port Alberta the guys seem very optimistic but having lived here for so many years I think it is going to come down to a political decision for special status or federal funds. I just hope they have their political ducks in a row.

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    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Did anyone ask any of the really direct, pointed questions, or was this a t-ball event? If the latter, then what was the point?
    Yes, there were really direct, pointed questions asked. And there were direct, pointed answers given.

    With respect to why Edmonton isn't getting flights, Peter is well on top of the many variables that can go into an airline's scheduling choices. In my opinion, he's well positioned to do the job he's responsible to do. Carol is a benefit as well and it does help that she's in Toronto - Edmonton needs to be seen as a bigger player and if she's based there, it does improve ERAA's profile. I think it's a fantastic strategic move. When you spread out your people like that, you also hear more of "what's going on" out there - rather than just limit yourself to what you hear locally. No better place in Canada than Toronto for that...

    One thing I've wondered about is the contribution ERAA's corporate image and the City of Edmonton's overall image plays in the lack of willingness to give Edmonton flights. In 2008, ERAA is planning on doing some rebranding - the marketing department is working on changing the corporate image - and I think everything will start together - but everything takes time - that's the nature of change.

    There are so many factors that are contributing to what's happening (or rather not happening here)... the potential is there. And I'll say this - I think the LAST thing that's really important in this whole game right now is numbers - because Edmonton has them - and they've got a good business case (or they should have because I can see why they should have). So it's time to start looking at the other variables in the equation - things that may have been overlooked. Quite frankly, in my opinion, if an airline has a route that's going to make money, they'll find a way to bring another aircraft into their fleet - so the question is, what's holding them back THEN?

    Edmonton has potential - but it's going to take having the right people in the right places at the right time. And the power of positive helps to drive that initiative...

    My advice? Stop being disappointed when something doesn't happen - look for the opportunity out there that may be bigger than the one that didn't materialize. Stay focused, stay positive - and know that you're one of the big players - not the little guy looking for a hand-out. Perception is reality - and an airline that perceives Edmonton as unworthy of doing business with, just may be willing to turn down a solid business case. Have you ever not wanted to do something for someone that made sense to do, but you didn't want to do it for them because you didn't like them?

    I was asked last night why I've stayed off the C2E forums. It's because they're negative. Negativity doesn't contribute to anything and it doesn't build. Things at ERAA *ARE* headed in the right direction. Give them a chance - even if that means a couple of years more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    I was asked last night why I've stayed off the C2E forums. It's because they're negative. Negativity doesn't contribute to anything and it doesn't build. Things at ERAA *ARE* headed in the right direction. Give them a chance - even if that means a couple of years more.
    LeighAnne,

    I hope you will reconsider contributing to the C2E forum as not all threads are negative. I will point out a couple "I love Edmonton because..." and "How do you make Edmonton a better place to live?"

    My personal mandate is to make C2E as welcoming and positive for EVERYONE and I repeatably make it clear that C2E is the sum of ALL of our community.

    Welcome and hope to see you contributing again soon!

    Cheers,


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    I think a lot of what causes disappointment are those on this board who keep selling us false expectations. Whether it is rumours of upcoming nonstops to Asia and Europe or all these wonderful new office towers in our downtown, I'm at a point where I am tuning out unless there's a spade in the ground or an official announcement.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Sonic Death Monkey: I was once told the best way to have a happy relationship is to not have any expectations. No expectations - no disappointment.

    The fact of the matter is the world is a dynamic place with many variables - and they can change on a moment's notice. A number of years ago I was hired to manage two teams - one in Calgary, one in Edmonton. Then suddenly I was asked to take on six teams in the two cities. Then that was paired down to five. And this was all in a matter of three months. Business is like that - and a good business is one that can change on a dime and adapt to the changing dynamics of their business.

    If you would have asked me two days ago how I felt about ERAA, I would have been pessimistic. I've been studying airport management and operations, and ERAA for the past five years. I had great hopes when Reg Milley came on board - he had the vision that was needed - he saw what could be done - but there just hasn't been the progress that should have been made materializing, but after getting a chance to talk to some of the key players again last night, once again I'm optomistic and I think ERAA's starting to put together a team that has the potential to find the right combination to unlock that potential.

    Whenever I don't get something I really want - there's two things I think back to. 1. As the dying professor said, "Walls are there to make us realize how much we really want something." And 2. Usually something bigger and better is just around the corner - the trick is to keeping that door open so when it arrives, you're ready to walk through. You can't stay so stuck focused on the past you're not ready or able to move into the future.

    DebraW: Thanks for the welcome. I truly only lurk here and there on C2E and I don't see everything that goes on here. I was wondering why you changed your alias. Somehow I stumbled onto the post by Scott McKeen. He has a point - but it's too bad it got lost in the poor choice for a subject (as I've indicated previously, I'm not a big fan of PDN's (public displays of negativity). I do think however though, in today's internet age, there is some need for privacy...

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    I am a little disappointed that nothing of real substance was communicated. It would appear that this pub meeting was a PR exercise to build support while tempering expectations. EAA already has the support of most on this forum and other forums - so there is no need to build this support. I suspect the real motivation was to temper expectations for new flights - possibly providing some relief to the marketing group. What are the goals for new flight destinations in order of priority. EAA muses about Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc. - but what are the real priorities? How will we measure EAA success if there are no clearly defined priority as in #1, #2 and #3?

    When I read the preceding posts - all I got was a feeling of EAA saying little and outlining no clear objectives. The thought that we should give EAA "a few years" and or "don't be critical" or that posters are negative for asking just what is the next priority and asking what the status of that is rather short sighted. I for one have expectations - and I will not temper them.

    From previous poster: "I was once told the best way to have a happy relationship is to not have any expectations. No expectations - no disappointment." Really? Thankfully EAA are very accountable to the publics it serves. To expect nothing from EAA would of course result in no dissapointments. Bartender!! another pint of Guinness please!!

    *Where is FRA, AMS, CDG, etc?
    *Why is ZOOM flying YVR-YYC-CDG when Edmonton is home to a MUCH larger Francophone population, Faculte St. Jean etc? Why not YVR-YEG-CDG?
    *Did EAA talk subsidies to airlines to launch new services?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker
    I am a little disappointed that nothing of real substance was communicated. It would appear that this pub meeting was a PR exercise to build support while tempering expectations.

    <snip>

    EAA muses about Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc. - but what are the real priorities? How will we measure EAA success if there are no clearly defined priority as in #1, #2 and #3?

    When I read the preceding posts - all I got was a feeling of EAA saying little and outlining no clear objectives. The thought that we should give EAA "a few years" and or "don't be critical" or that posters are negative for asking just what is the next priority and asking what the status of that is rather short sighted. I for one have expectations - and I will not temper them.

    From previous poster: "I was once told the best way to have a happy relationship is to not have any expectations. No expectations - no disappointment." Really? Thankfully EAA are very accountable to the publics it serves. To expect nothing from EAA would of course result in no dissapointments. Bartender!! another pint of Guinness please!!

    *Where is FRA, AMS, CDG, etc?
    *Why is ZOOM flying YVR-YYC-CDG when Edmonton is home to a MUCH larger Francophone population, Faculte St. Jean etc? Why not YVR-YEG-CDG?
    *Did EAA talk subsidies to airlines to launch new services?
    For a moment, let's liken ERAA to NAIT because I think they're good analogies. If you look at NAIT today, companies are jumping on the bandwagon with new programs to help train future employees for the workplace. There are partnerships with all sorts of large corporations being formed today. Ten years ago you didn't see that at NAIT. Corporations weren't interested in partnerships like they are today and NAIT's reputation was as "the place where you could go if you didn't have good academic skills". And the quality of instruction at NAIT in some Departments was extremely poor. In the program I took, it was a Network Management program - there were no computers, no network equipment, no software, often not even a classroom available for us... nor was there an instructor that knew the material. And when I was an instructor there, I was told by my Program Head that I couldn't mark written essays using the rubric I had developed because it included a subjective component. Could I use an objective marking scheme, perhaps giving students a mark for every third time they used the word "the"? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find those same standards in NAIT today. Everything at NAIT has changed, and the updating of the corporate logo is just one more step in changing NAIT's image - but it took ten years to do it. I see a lot of the same leadership skills and leadership style in Reg as I se in Dr. Sam Shaw over at NAIT. Change is not a fast process and it's one where you can be discouraged easily when you expect results over night.

    Reg is just a few years into ERAA - and it will take a long time to change the perception of YEG and Edmonton. It's something that predates the formation of ERAA and it's something that won't change over night - as much as people here would like that to change. In my opinion, that's why despite having the numbers, despite having the good business case, airlines are still reluctant to do business in Edmonton.

    Why did we not get Franfurt? Peter's explanation was quite involved and sorry, I didn't take notes but I'll do my best to summarize what Peter said and I'll throw in a little of my own interpretation into the mix too.

    Remember the big WestJet brew-ha-ha where WestJet was hacked into Air Canada's flight operations data? WestJet tried to use that information to set up routes that would take away customers from Air Canada. If an airline can take customers away from another airline, it has the opportunity to financially damage its competition. If you can do enough damage, you can force your competition into bankruptcy. Someone's got to be there to pick up those passengers.

    There's a limited number of aircraft available out there and those aircraft have to be deployed against whatever corporate priorities airlines set. Whether it's trying to crush the competition, or trying to get the market cornered on the Asia routes, those are limiting factors in what an airline can do with its fleet. Asia is the number one factor, according to Peter, that North American routes as a whole have to compete with.

    Did EAA talk subsidies to airlines to launch new services? I think Peter said ERAA's been making "very attractive offers" to airlines to start up service. But I would think all airports do that. Airports are not one to turn away business - they're always in expansion mode.

    I for one would like to see people stop throwing their arms up in the air in frustration every time something doesn't materialize, because it doesn't help to get to the end-goal of getting those flights. Edmonton as a whole needs to change its image - it needs to promote itself as a big time player - not the little guy that always whines about what Calgary gets and I think right now that's how Edmonton has defined itself. The City Centre airport issue hurt us - not because of the dual airport issue, but because of the fact that we're a city in constant conflict - we don't appear to be corporate minded going after business. Take downtown for example. How many people are complaining about Stationlands? What about the brewhaha over what's happening on the Heritage Mall site? Or Wal*Mart's 97th Street/161 Avenue proposal? The funding of the downtown YMCA? As a corporation I'd be frustrated to do business here because it seems that no matter what, someone's going to complain about something for some reason. Does a corporation want to bring proposals to Edmonton when constant conflict seems to be the norm?

    Edmonton needs to look at why it's lost so many head offices. When City Centre was turned over to ATCO Frontec, it's my understanding that in the deal, Frontec agreed not to move its head office from Edmonton. Uhm... guess where its head office went shortly after Frontec took over the airport? Why are businesses more interested in doing business in Calgary than here? Why are airlines more interested in doing business in Calgary than here? Edmonton is not perceived as a business city. Edmonton is not perceived as a friendly city. We need to change that - because Edmonton is better than that image. And change starts with you and me.

    That's why I've stated an optomistic approach without expectations is what's needed here. Every time there's a disappointment, there's a loss of momentum and everybody looks for someone to blame. It stops the process from moving forward and it stops progress from being made. Think about the Oilers for a minute. Do you think it does the team any good when the city rags on the team for being so lousy after each loss? Do you think the Oilers perform better when everyone thinks their failures? Do you think the Oilers enjoy playing in Edmonton when it appears the whole city is ready to lynch the team? Are we helping the team when we chip away at team members' belief in themselves? Perhaps when we do that, we too are partially responsible for the team's losses. You can't win when you don't believe in yourself.

    I don't think there's a group of people out there that can do any better than the team that ERAA currently has working on flight expansion at YEG. They're facing challenges that only time and commitment to changing perceptions will overcome. I found Peter very positive and I think airlines will respond positively in kind - but it'll take time. The YEG slide began in the 1980's but it's probably always been dogged with a negative perception since its original inception because of its tie-in with Mirabel and that's a lot of history to overcome. We need to support Peter and his team in that - to help keep his momentum going. If we can't keep Peter on an up-note, flights are just not going to happen.

    The bottom line is, is it's Edmonton's choice. Is it going to define itself as a corporate player, or as the city that's in Calgary's shadow?


    DISCLAIMER: The views expressed here are solely my own and may not be reflective of those of ERAA or those named above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    "...more"
    YES!

    Perhaps because I have been in Edmonton for so long and have witnessed many changes (some good some not so good) or ... whatever the reason one thing I know for sure is that NOTHING ever happens if you do nothing.

    Simple premise but something that is often overlooked in these days of not wanting to misstep and increased accountability/scrutiny.

    Fortunately the ERAA is not giving up and is demonstrating that they are willing to take chances and make changes.

    PR exercise? Perhaps, but what is wrong with that?

    PR = Public Relations which is what the ERAA should be doing (and is), I say thank you and good on them.

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    For those of you who are so indignant that other people did not ask the questions you wanted asked, all I can say is you should have been there. I had a great time and when I left I felt very upbeat. The session was for the exchange of information for the people who were there. So next time you can ask your own questions, if you come.

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    ^ Good reply and advice. I could not be there this time (I was very ill this week) but will go next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco
    For those of you who are so indignant that other people did not ask the questions you wanted asked, all I can say is you should have been there. I had a great time and when I left I felt very upbeat. The session was for the exchange of information for the people who were there. So next time you can ask your own questions, if you come.
    I got back today from vacation. That said - even if I was here - what difference should it make in getting information from EAA? In addition, why should I have to go to a PUB to get what...er public information? The last public session EAA held a few months back (if I recall correctly) was not well advertised and as a result was poorly attended (is what I read). However, I will attend the next public session if it is advertised and if I am available.

    Perhaps EAA can provide a quarterly newsletter?. If there are pubic meetings (and the one at PUB 1905 was if it was paid for by EAA), perhaps minutes are taken and should be available without a FOIP request? (actually a question for JimR).

    For the molly coddlers who are advocating the "do nothing, have no expectations and have faith" approach, EAA is a major corporation serving an ever demanding public and need not hide behind your skirts.

    So what is the business plan for new air routes? Does it actually exist on paper? (another question for JimR)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DebraW
    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    I was asked last night why I've stayed off the C2E forums. It's because they're negative. Negativity doesn't contribute to anything and it doesn't build. Things at ERAA *ARE* headed in the right direction. Give them a chance - even if that means a couple of years more.
    LeighAnne,

    I hope you will reconsider contributing to the C2E forum as not all threads are negative. I will point out a couple "I love Edmonton because..." and "How do you make Edmonton a better place to live?"

    (...)
    Welcome and hope to see you contributing again soon!

    Cheers,

    Hello LeighAnne!

    Welcome to C2E...and especially from the land of the lurking!

    I must ask, is it negativity you see, or:
    • Impatience with the market being hot, yet the lack of progress in key areas?
    • Disgust with study after study after study after plan after planning to study the latest plan that is a study of the plan that planned the study of 1953?
    • Anger after seeing Edmonton get its butt handed to it time after time after time for nothing else but political backroom crap - even after huge efforts from great people like the folks at the ERAA.
    • Witnessing insanity time and time again when in other areas, incompetence gets fired.



    I too find things getting a bit negative here at times, but C2E is an open forum meant to not be a marketing glossy or even worse, a nauseating "booster club". There needs to be honest and open discussion because things ARE broken here, but the vast majority of posters believe in Edmonton so much that they really want to see it succeed. Patience is wearing thin though...

    I really want people like you to contribute. We need people like you to contribute. There needs to be balance, and sometimes, a reminder of patience.

    Thank you for jumping in here. Really. Thank you. Please post more.
    President and CEO - Airshow.

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    RichardS: Thank you for the warm and friendly greeting.

    To answer your question, it IS negativity that I see. And we are very much in control of generating that negativity.

    Lack of progress, study after study with no results, political backroom crap, insanity time and time again... they all stem from the same problem. The problem is, is that in our impatience to see results, we hire the wrong people - the people that don't have the answers or the knowledge to get the job done, and then we wonder where the results are?

    My employment background for the past 18 years has been information technology. Time and time again I see I.T. consultants brought into an organzation who don't have a clue what they're doing. Since most end-users don't know enough to know their information technology environment is a disaster waiting to happen, the fact that their systems support is incompetent is often only made clear when a crisis occurs. I've seen legal environments where there was no security on the corporate network - anyone could get any information they wanted. That might not be much of a problem except that when the organization is large, it's possible lawyers may represent opposing sides and there should be firewalls in place to protect the integrity of the information provided by each side. I've seen environments where server backups have NEVER run properly and of course that fact was discovered when an undocumented Microsoft feature caused the entire operating system to wipe out all installed applications. Reinstalling the software was a simple enough procedure, but no one was kind enough to document the AppleTalk share points or just what software had been installed on the server. What should have taken two or three hours to restore instead took days...

    The bottom line is, is often people are too quick to act. Now I don't like study after study either - and if you're finding that, then odds are you don't have knowledgable people in place that either conducted the study, or that are able to interpret the study. Or worse yet - you have a dynamic environment with little consistency in who's running the operation. Anyone here work for the Provincial Government? Who's been through a reorganization lately? Anyone here work for the Federal Government? How many positions are staffed only through temps in an effort to cut down the number of FTE's on paper? You've got room for temps, but not FTE's. And every time a new temp is brought in to the organization, you have that learning curve for that employee to go through again. Consistency breeds familiarity - and if you're lucky, cognizance and competence.

    So what's the solution? Oddly enough, it's to slow down. It's to not be hasty - and it's to restore education in the workplace. The first thing that usually gets cut from any budget is training - but if people don't know enough to hire the right people - to know that the people they're hiring actually KNOW what they're talking about, they're going to hire the wrong people and they're going to get unpredictable and often undesirable results.

    It's a societal problem. We're a quick fix society. We're a society that would like to take the easy route whenever possible. Unfortunately, many things that are worthwhile don't come unless there's a great deal of effort behind it. Just tell anyone trying to lose fat that... The multi-billion dollar diet industry is built on just that - people wanting the quick fix without putting in the effort - or the education to understand what works, what doesn't, and what needs to be done. Same thing in business. Same thing in life...

    Are things broken here? Is C2E a nauseating 'booster club'? Perception is reality, isn't it? So... what would you like to perceive today?

  74. #74
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    Wow, LeighAnne you are good. I think you are well thought and communicate very effectively.

    I agree with you on all your points however there is a razors edge difference for some people between negativity and critical comments.

    As well I think it naive that the polical backrooms are not influencing a few things. I know for a fact that the provincial government moved out Imperial Oil and Shell and a few of the other majors who were in Edmonton in the name of diversification. But that is old news but my point is that I still think that on some level it is still happening in whatever form...hint: the actions of Rod Love...

    As a booster of the Edmontons International airport I travel the direct flights and also partake in the not so much advertised hobby of aviaion viewing. Please give me that big hill just east of the terminal and south of the parking lot for a view park. It has a great view of the runway and the terminal.

    Thanks.

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker
    I am a little disappointed that nothing of real substance was communicated. It would appear that this pub meeting was a PR exercise to build support while tempering expectations.

    <snip>

    EAA muses about Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc. - but what are the real priorities? How will we measure EAA success if there are no clearly defined priority as in #1, #2 and #3?

    When I read the preceding posts - all I got was a feeling of EAA saying little and outlining no clear objectives. The thought that we should give EAA "a few years" and or "don't be critical" or that posters are negative for asking just what is the next priority and asking what the status of that is rather short sighted. I for one have expectations - and I will not temper them.

    From previous poster: "I was once told the best way to have a happy relationship is to not have any expectations. No expectations - no disappointment." Really? Thankfully EAA are very accountable to the publics it serves. To expect nothing from EAA would of course result in no dissapointments. Bartender!! another pint of Guinness please!!

    *Where is FRA, AMS, CDG, etc?
    *Why is ZOOM flying YVR-YYC-CDG when Edmonton is home to a MUCH larger Francophone population, Faculte St. Jean etc? Why not YVR-YEG-CDG?
    *Did EAA talk subsidies to airlines to launch new services?
    For a moment, let's liken ERAA to NAIT because I think they're good analogies. If you look at NAIT today, companies are jumping on the bandwagon with new programs to help train future employees for the workplace. There are partnerships with all sorts of large corporations being formed today. Ten years ago you didn't see that at NAIT. Corporations weren't interested in partnerships like they are today and NAIT's reputation was as "the place where you could go if you didn't have good academic skills". And the quality of instruction at NAIT in some Departments was extremely poor. In the program I took, it was a Network Management program - there were no computers, no network equipment, no software, often not even a classroom available for us... nor was there an instructor that knew the material. And when I was an instructor there, I was told by my Program Head that I couldn't mark written essays using the rubric I had developed because it included a subjective component. Could I use an objective marking scheme, perhaps giving students a mark for every third time they used the word "the"? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find those same standards in NAIT today. Everything at NAIT has changed, and the updating of the corporate logo is just one more step in changing NAIT's image - but it took ten years to do it. I see a lot of the same leadership skills and leadership style in Reg as I se in Dr. Sam Shaw over at NAIT. Change is not a fast process and it's one where you can be discouraged easily when you expect results over night.

    Reg is just a few years into ERAA - and it will take a long time to change the perception of YEG and Edmonton. It's something that predates the formation of ERAA and it's something that won't change over night - as much as people here would like that to change. In my opinion, that's why despite having the numbers, despite having the good business case, airlines are still reluctant to do business in Edmonton.

    Why did we not get Franfurt? Peter's explanation was quite involved and sorry, I didn't take notes but I'll do my best to summarize what Peter said and I'll throw in a little of my own interpretation into the mix too.

    Remember the big WestJet brew-ha-ha where WestJet was hacked into Air Canada's flight operations data? WestJet tried to use that information to set up routes that would take away customers from Air Canada. If an airline can take customers away from another airline, it has the opportunity to financially damage its competition. If you can do enough damage, you can force your competition into bankruptcy. Someone's got to be there to pick up those passengers.

    There's a limited number of aircraft available out there and those aircraft have to be deployed against whatever corporate priorities airlines set. Whether it's trying to crush the competition, or trying to get the market cornered on the Asia routes, those are limiting factors in what an airline can do with its fleet. Asia is the number one factor, according to Peter, that North American routes as a whole have to compete with.

    Did EAA talk subsidies to airlines to launch new services? I think Peter said ERAA's been making "very attractive offers" to airlines to start up service. But I would think all airports do that. Airports are not one to turn away business - they're always in expansion mode.

    I for one would like to see people stop throwing their arms up in the air in frustration every time something doesn't materialize, because it doesn't help to get to the end-goal of getting those flights. Edmonton as a whole needs to change its image - it needs to promote itself as a big time player - not the little guy that always whines about what Calgary gets and I think right now that's how Edmonton has defined itself. The City Centre airport issue hurt us - not because of the dual airport issue, but because of the fact that we're a city in constant conflict - we don't appear to be corporate minded going after business. Take downtown for example. How many people are complaining about Stationlands? What about the brewhaha over what's happening on the Heritage Mall site? Or Wal*Mart's 97th Street/161 Avenue proposal? The funding of the downtown YMCA? As a corporation I'd be frustrated to do business here because it seems that no matter what, someone's going to complain about something for some reason. Does a corporation want to bring proposals to Edmonton when constant conflict seems to be the norm?

    Edmonton needs to look at why it's lost so many head offices. When City Centre was turned over to ATCO Frontec, it's my understanding that in the deal, Frontec agreed not to move its head office from Edmonton. Uhm... guess where its head office went shortly after Frontec took over the airport? Why are businesses more interested in doing business in Calgary than here? Why are airlines more interested in doing business in Calgary than here? Edmonton is not perceived as a business city. Edmonton is not perceived as a friendly city. We need to change that - because Edmonton is better than that image. And change starts with you and me.

    That's why I've stated an optomistic approach without expectations is what's needed here. Every time there's a disappointment, there's a loss of momentum and everybody looks for someone to blame. It stops the process from moving forward and it stops progress from being made. Think about the Oilers for a minute. Do you think it does the team any good when the city rags on the team for being so lousy after each loss? Do you think the Oilers perform better when everyone thinks their failures? Do you think the Oilers enjoy playing in Edmonton when it appears the whole city is ready to lynch the team? Are we helping the team when we chip away at team members' belief in themselves? Perhaps when we do that, we too are partially responsible for the team's losses. You can't win when you don't believe in yourself.

    I don't think there's a group of people out there that can do any better than the team that ERAA currently has working on flight expansion at YEG. They're facing challenges that only time and commitment to changing perceptions will overcome. I found Peter very positive and I think airlines will respond positively in kind - but it'll take time. The YEG slide began in the 1980's but it's probably always been dogged with a negative perception since its original inception because of its tie-in with Mirabel and that's a lot of history to overcome. We need to support Peter and his team in that - to help keep his momentum going. If we can't keep Peter on an up-note, flights are just not going to happen.

    The bottom line is, is it's Edmonton's choice. Is it going to define itself as a corporate player, or as the city that's in Calgary's shadow?


    DISCLAIMER: The views expressed here are solely my own and may not be reflective of those of ERAA or those named above.
    Crikey, is there a Coles Notes version of this post? Uhhh, exactly why didn't "we" get the Frankfurt route?

    Is living in a Pollyanna world... more comfortable for some? Negative criticism, appropriately directed, acts as the impetus to dialogue, to analysis, to change, to improvement, to... less criticism (of the topic at hand). Or - we could all project a blandly hypocritical and naively positive view of the world and human nature... kumbaya... anyone... anyone?

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    RichardS: Thank you for the warm and friendly greeting.

    To answer your question, it IS negativity that I see. And we are very much in control of generating that negativity.

    Lack of progress, study after study with no results, political backroom crap, insanity time and time again... they all stem from the same problem. The problem is, is that in our impatience to see results, we hire the wrong people - the people that don't have the answers or the knowledge to get the job done, and then we wonder where the results are?

    My employment background for the past 18 years has been information technology. Time and time again I see I.T. consultants brought into an organzation who don't have a clue what they're doing. Since most end-users don't know enough to know their information technology environment is a disaster waiting to happen, the fact that their systems support is incompetent is often only made clear when a crisis occurs. I've seen legal environments where there was no security on the corporate network - anyone could get any information they wanted. That might not be much of a problem except that when the organization is large, it's possible lawyers may represent opposing sides and there should be firewalls in place to protect the integrity of the information provided by each side. I've seen environments where server backups have NEVER run properly and of course that fact was discovered when an undocumented Microsoft feature caused the entire operating system to wipe out all installed applications. Reinstalling the software was a simple enough procedure, but no one was kind enough to document the AppleTalk share points or just what software had been installed on the server. What should have taken two or three hours to restore instead took days...

    The bottom line is, is often people are too quick to act. Now I don't like study after study either - and if you're finding that, then odds are you don't have knowledgable people in place that either conducted the study, or that are able to interpret the study. Or worse yet - you have a dynamic environment with little consistency in who's running the operation. Anyone here work for the Provincial Government? Who's been through a reorganization lately? Anyone here work for the Federal Government? How many positions are staffed only through temps in an effort to cut down the number of FTE's on paper? You've got room for temps, but not FTE's. And every time a new temp is brought in to the organization, you have that learning curve for that employee to go through again. Consistency breeds familiarity - and if you're lucky, cognizance and competence.

    So what's the solution? Oddly enough, it's to slow down. It's to not be hasty - and it's to restore education in the workplace. The first thing that usually gets cut from any budget is training - but if people don't know enough to hire the right people - to know that the people they're hiring actually KNOW what they're talking about, they're going to hire the wrong people and they're going to get unpredictable and often undesirable results.

    It's a societal problem. We're a quick fix society. We're a society that would like to take the easy route whenever possible. Unfortunately, many things that are worthwhile don't come unless there's a great deal of effort behind it. Just tell anyone trying to lose fat that... The multi-billion dollar diet industry is built on just that - people wanting the quick fix without putting in the effort - or the education to understand what works, what doesn't, and what needs to be done. Same thing in business. Same thing in life...

    Are things broken here? Is C2E a nauseating 'booster club'? Perception is reality, isn't it? So... what would you like to perceive today?
    solution? Hire the right consultants.

  77. #77
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    EdmTrekker wrote:
    I got back today from vacation. That said - even if I was here - what difference should it make in getting information from EAA? In addition, why should I have to go to a PUB to get what...er public information? The last public session EAA held a few months back (if I recall correctly) was not well advertised and as a result was poorly attended (is what I read). However, I will attend the next public session if it is advertised and if I am available.
    Perhaps EAA can provide a quarterly newsletter?. If there are pubic meetings (and the one at PUB 1905 was if it was paid for by EAA), perhaps minutes are taken and should be available without a FOIP request? (actually a question for JimR).
    For the molly coddlers who are advocating the "do nothing, have no expectations and have faith" approach, EAA is a major corporation serving an ever demanding public and need not hide behind your skirts.

    So what is the business plan for new air routes? Does it actually exist on paper? (another question for JimR)


    Good questions EdmTrekker. A couple of answers/points:

    1. The "Beer and Bull" session was meant to give C2E members and lurkers a chance to informally meet some EA staffers face-to-face and ask them directly the questions they wanted to ask. It was by no means designed to be the only way people can get information about EA and its activities.

    For the record, the Oct. 11 public meeting was advertised in the Edmonton Sun and Edmonton Journal (we have to advertise, it's part of our lease agreement with Transport Canada).

    It was also announced on C2E (although admittedly only about 30 hours prior to the meeting, so feel free to lash me for that, but nonetheless. . .).

    As well, we had 100-plus people show up which is not bad for our fall meeting. Media also showed up and reported on the $1-billion epxansion announcement.

    2. While most people can't make meetings, there's a wealth of info on the corporate sitelet - http://corporate.edmontonairports.com

    You can find 24-7-365:

    a). Annual Reports - check out pages 17 and 18 of of the 2006 AR, which overviews one of the most significant ramp-ups at any Canadian airport in the past decade.
    b). Quarterly financial statements
    c). Newsletters - Yeg Update - these are targeted at airlines and local big wigs, but it's great info for the public and C2E members, so check it out.
    d). Public business plans (new 2008 business plan and 2008-2112 strat plan to be posted soon).
    e). Economic impact reports and other "Facts and Stats."

    3. In terms of Frankfurt, here's the simple answer, EIA did not fit into Air Canada's business plan at this time.

    It is still the top target for EIA in terms of European air service. We are going to keep working at it and we're continuing to discuss the service with other airlines. We strongly believe a Frankfurt service can make money for the airline that wants to take it on and we have the business case to prove it. It's a multi-pronged approach that includes building a great relationship with the Fraport itself - thanks Carol.

    In terms of the U.S., a Texas flight is critcal as I've stated on here before. A New York flight is also a top target. Florida is another.

    4. Unfortunately, there's some information that falls into the category of commercial confidential. One of those categories is the status of ongoing negotiations. Airlines, like most private companies, do not like to negotiate publicly. These are often long-term multi-level exercises that you're never sure of until the announcement is made, and really not until the plane arrives for the first flight!

  78. #78
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    According to JimR:

    3. In terms of Frankfurt, here's the simple answer, EIA did not fit into Air Canada's business plan at this time.

    So Air Canada is not going to give us FRA because of business considerations, Lufthansa is allied with Air Canada and won't come here while other airlines are unable to enter the market because of government policy or AC pressure.

    Nice job AC - You have setup a nice little monopoly here.

    Where is that second major airline when we need it?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252


    Where is that second major airline when we need it?
    Ask Buzz...

    President and CEO - Airshow.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff
    Crikey, is there a Coles Notes version of this post?
    HA! You posted that before reading my next post that says:

    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnneC
    We're a society that would like to take the easy route whenever possible. Unfortunately, many things that are worthwhile don't come unless there's a great deal of effort behind it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff
    Uhhh, exactly why didn't "we" get the Frankfurt route?
    The Coles Notes version of my replies - well, let me use JimR's answer: "In terms of Frankfurt, here's the simple answer, EIA did not fit into Air Canada's business plan at this time. "

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff
    Is living in a Pollyanna world... more comfortable for some? Negative criticism, appropriately directed, acts as the impetus to dialogue, to analysis, to change, to improvement, to... less criticism (of the topic at hand). Or - we could all project a blandly hypocritical and naively positive view of the world and human nature... kumbaya... anyone... anyone?
    Negative criticism destroys. It isn't productive... Constructive criticism (or "neutral criticism") on the other hand is necessary after not achieving a desired goal. It's doing a post-mortem on the process and figuring out what went wrong. Keeping a positive attitude and keeping the door open for the next opportunity that comes in is what will eventually get success. I ascribe to criticism - just not the negative kind.

    The fact is - is the airline industry doesn't work on just basic principles of making money. There IS politics involved. Airport politics, airline politics, corporate management/personal politics... If it were just about business, Edmonton should have those flights for which there are good business cases. And you can ***** and complain all you want about not getting flights, but it won't change the outcome. It might actually make the process more difficult because negative criticism impacts the perception factor which can influence corporate decisions.

    I've been a sports coach for 25 years now. Early in my career, I didn't have the success I do today - but I didn't know then what I know now. This summer, my girls' soccer team was accused of losing games on purpose to drop them into a lower tier because suddenly at the end of the season, my team started winning game after game after a season of losing the majority of the games they played. So what made the difference at the end of the season? Simple. The team stopped listening to themselves put themselves down for always losing, and they began listening to their coach who believed in them and kept telling them game after game that they've got talent - but that they need to work together to acheive their objective of winning. And we worked on field positioning and playing the area that they were assigned - and they learned to trust in their teammates and not play in their team mates area. And they placed 2nd in the city finals. They could have placed 1st but the team lost a key important player in their most important game.

    Life is like that too - if you listen to the negative, you'll get worn down, discouraged, and you won't believe in yourself. That's the Oilers right now. They've got talent - but they don't have the belief in themselves that they can win. If they go into their next game believing that they can win without constructively evaluating and identifying what's wrong and working on those areas of their game, they won't win either. They'd be blindly going forward expecting positive but haven't fixed what they need to. That would be the Polyanna world you're referring to - and that's not the world I live in. Edmonton Airports I'm sure knows what it needs to work on, it has some idea why it's not achieving the results it wants, it's retooling how it approaches negotiations with airlines and given time and the right circumstances, they'll start having success. But negative criticism isn't going to achieve that objective.

    The most successful people in business are all described as being "extremely well organized". They use their time very, very well. They are highly productive and they get vastly more done in the same period of time than the average person. They're people that don't ascribe to negative criticism. They do what I've just outlined - they look at the problem, identify what went wrong, figure out what to change, and go back and tackle the problem. There is no time for bitching, whining and complaining.

    That said, I'm going to be taking a break from C2E until the end of the month. I've got two final exams coming up that I need to prepare for.

    Cheers everyone!

  81. #81

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    I bet there’s a real growth industry with New Age hucksters selling the “power of positive criticism”… real inspirational motivating stuff – I bet.

    As I said, “negative" criticism, appropriately directed… it’s how one receives, interprets and handles the criticism, however labeled. Some may prefer to deflect criticism by labeling it as being “negative”… I suppose it’s easier to ignore that way.

    Being negative, from a purely subjective point of view, is criticism for the sake of being critical. Objectively delivered “negative” criticism, if interpreted and managed appropriately, should result in improvements/change or, at minimum, a review of the status quo.

  82. #82
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    1. There's... "where did we go wrong and how can we improve?"
    2. And..."where's my Frankfurt flight and I want someone to explain."

    I think it was a tad on the destructive criticism side myself. I am all out of Purple K myself.

    Opposite points of view are nice. Debating is fun. But both sides have to get the message. Ultimately we have to lean towards #1.

  83. #83
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    Don't give up hope on Frankfurt. A lot of factors come into play, but if we continue to track positive growth around the double-digit area, our case will be strengthended.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket252
    It has been a tough crowd today because the expectations for YEG have been raised so high and we are not seeing tangible results.
    Did anyone ask any of the really direct, pointed questions, or was this a t-ball event? If the latter, then what was the point?
    T-ball event? How pompous!

    I had a stimulating conversation (yes, there was dialogue) with Carol. She is very astute, knows the business, and certainly knows how to approach potential businesses...remember, Airlines are businesses.....!

    Carol has been very involved in networking, meetings, and fielding all possibilities.

    Basically, Edmonton won't get the big carriers until we establish an excellent regional network of smaller Airlines.

    What do you expect her to accomplish in less than a year? Maybe she should force decision makers into a "full-nelson" until they cry "uncle"?

    In business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.
    (Chester L. Karrass)

    If you want "fast" go to McDonalds'.

  85. #85
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    The fact is - is the airline industry doesn't work on just basic principles of making money. There IS politics involved. Airport politics, airline politics, corporate management/personal politics... If it were just about business, Edmonton should have those flights for which there are good business cases.


    Yes, there "ARE" politics involved...and its all about jockeying power. And we know that money is power. Semantics...chicken or eggs. Having said that, how can we reassure the larger carriers that their money is well spent on Edmonton routes. We need to be thinking about that. And, how often, and to where do the residents of Edmonton fly? That's you and I folks!

  86. #86

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    How about this:

    Close down the Municipal Airport and use the procedes from the sale to start a new airline called "Air Edmonton". This new airline serving Edmonton would fill in the void that other airlines refuse to fill.

  87. #87
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    I heard that Global Edmonton had time to announce a new flight to Germany and it was the flight that Calgary got...go figure.

    As well Rod Love is involved in the high speed rail line and he wants the line to go from Edmonton downtown to Red Deer to Calgary International airport and then to Calgary downtown...hmmm i smell a rat...I bet that good 'ol Mark Norris is helping Roddy on this one.

    Not negative...just real folks.

    ps...debate is good...it's what democracy is built on but don't forget that business does not like democracy because a business wants to be in absolute control and eventually be a monopoloy...see Rockefeller.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimR
    EdmTrekker wrote:
    I got back today from vacation. That said - even if I was here - what difference should it make in getting information from EAA? In addition, why should I have to go to a PUB to get what...er public information? The last public session EAA held a few months back (if I recall correctly) was not well advertised and as a result was poorly attended (is what I read). However, I will attend the next public session if it is advertised and if I am available.
    Perhaps EAA can provide a quarterly newsletter?. If there are pubic meetings (and the one at PUB 1905 was if it was paid for by EAA), perhaps minutes are taken and should be available without a FOIP request? (actually a question for JimR).
    For the molly coddlers who are advocating the "do nothing, have no expectations and have faith" approach, EAA is a major corporation serving an ever demanding public and need not hide behind your skirts.

    So what is the business plan for new air routes? Does it actually exist on paper? (another question for JimR)


    Good questions EdmTrekker. A couple of answers/points:

    1. The "Beer and Bull" session was meant to give C2E members and lurkers a chance to informally meet some EA staffers face-to-face and ask them directly the questions they wanted to ask. It was by no means designed to be the only way people can get information about EA and its activities.

    For the record, the Oct. 11 public meeting was advertised in the Edmonton Sun and Edmonton Journal (we have to advertise, it's part of our lease agreement with Transport Canada).

    It was also announced on C2E (although admittedly only about 30 hours prior to the meeting, so feel free to lash me for that, but nonetheless. . .).

    As well, we had 100-plus people show up which is not bad for our fall meeting. Media also showed up and reported on the $1-billion epxansion announcement.

    2. While most people can't make meetings, there's a wealth of info on the corporate sitelet - http://corporate.edmontonairports.com

    You can find 24-7-365:

    a). Annual Reports - check out pages 17 and 18 of of the 2006 AR, which overviews one of the most significant ramp-ups at any Canadian airport in the past decade.
    b). Quarterly financial statements
    c). Newsletters - Yeg Update - these are targeted at airlines and local big wigs, but it's great info for the public and C2E members, so check it out.
    d). Public business plans (new 2008 business plan and 2008-2112 strat plan to be posted soon).
    e). Economic impact reports and other "Facts and Stats."

    3. In terms of Frankfurt, here's the simple answer, EIA did not fit into Air Canada's business plan at this time.

    It is still the top target for EIA in terms of European air service. We are going to keep working at it and we're continuing to discuss the service with other airlines. We strongly believe a Frankfurt service can make money for the airline that wants to take it on and we have the business case to prove it. It's a multi-pronged approach that includes building a great relationship with the Fraport itself - thanks Carol.

    In terms of the U.S., a Texas flight is critcal as I've stated on here before. A New York flight is also a top target. Florida is another.

    4. Unfortunately, there's some information that falls into the category of commercial confidential. One of those categories is the status of ongoing negotiations. Airlines, like most private companies, do not like to negotiate publicly. These are often long-term multi-level exercises that you're never sure of until the announcement is made, and really not until the plane arrives for the first flight!
    Thank you for responding directly - and to the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockdoc
    debate is good...it's what democracy is built on but don't forget that business does not like democracy because a business wants to be in absolute control and eventually be a monopoloy...see Rockefeller.
    Great quote!

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    Is there another B & B session in the works? I've just read through this entire thread and although we now have Mexico City in the pipeline it would be nice to hear what else is going on.

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    How about it, Jim R? Could we schedule another "B&B" session soon?
    Almost always open to debate...

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    mmmmm beer
    President and CEO - Airshow.

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    My plan has always been to do one in March. I haven't set a date yet, but checking what will work for our Marketing VP who is the star of the show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimR View Post
    My plan has always been to do one in March. I haven't set a date yet, but checking what will work for our Marketing VP who is the star of the show.
    look forward to it...perhaps not 1905:>
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    We'll move it around. Any suggestions for a southern location?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimR View Post
    We'll move it around. Any suggestions for a southern location?

    sugar bowl

    leva

    upstairs of remedy cafe

    back of obyrne's
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Savoy on Whyte...
    Almost always open to debate...

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    O'Byrne's or the Sugar Bowl wouldn't be a bad idea, though - lots more room than Savoy (I'm not going there because of bad memories - just like IanO's refusal to touch 1905 with a ten-foot pole) or Remedy Cafe. This is especially if we end up having more people than last time. Might want to keep in mind that at O'B's, Chris Wynters plays there on Wednesdays and Saturdays. Besides, places like O'B's tend to be better at dealing with people in groups.

    Other suggestions of mine are:

    Hudson's on either Whyte or Campus.
    Elephant & Castle
    Last edited by MikeK; 28-02-2008 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    leva

    Leva wouldn't have enough room for everyone. I was there for lunch a couple weeks back and with the our group we packed the place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimR View Post
    We'll move it around. Any suggestions for a southern location?
    Anywhere but DaCapo
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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