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Thread: Liberals And Trudeau - Performance Review!

  1. #4401
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “The video was shot in the early 1990s, however, it’s not clear where it takes place.”

    Like a lot of what is broadly seen today as reprehensible behaviour back in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, I believe this type of character playing was far more common or acceptable in the early 1990s. He was also younger then. So I think dredging up this past maybe should be tempered with the realities of the day.
    The first one, he was a drama teacher, who should of known better. There's a pattern, he lied about SNC, he lied about JWR, and he lied about blackface.( he said last night, there was one another time )JT is a hypocrite..
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  2. #4402

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “The video was shot in the early 1990s, however, it’s not clear where it takes place.”

    Like a lot of what is broadly seen today as reprehensible behaviour back in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, I believe this type of character playing was far more common or acceptable in the early 1990s. He was also younger then. So I think dredging up this past maybe should be tempered with the realities of the day.
    The first one, he was a drama teacher, who should of known better. There's a pattern, he lied about SNC, he lied about JWR, and he lied about blackface.( he said last night, there was one another time )JT is a hypocrite..
    Is it three instances or three photos of two instances?

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    The first one, he was a drama teacher, who should of known better. There's a pattern, he lied about SNC, he lied about JWR, and he lied about blackface.( he said last night, there was one another time )JT is a hypocrite..
    OK, so which candidate is not a hypocrite? Voters want to know!
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    Still rather take an apologetic hypocrite over an unapologetic bigot.
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    I can imagine the reaction if it was a conservative candidate, let alone the leader...and btw, i dont think Trudeau is a racist whatsoever. Just a stupid mistake.

    Also weird how Time magazine first reported the story, and not one of our media.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    I can imagine the reaction if it was a conservative candidate, let alone the leader...and btw, i dont think Trudeau is a racist whatsoever. Just a stupid mistake.

    Also weird how Time magazine first reported the story, and not one of our media.
    Foreign interference in our election?
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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    I can imagine the reaction if it was a conservative candidate, let alone the leader...and btw, i dont think Trudeau is a racist whatsoever. Just a stupid mistake.

    Also weird how Time magazine first reported the story, and not one of our media.
    Someone who was there( a guy in BC) gave it to them

    Visible minorities are very hurt by this, just ask them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “The video was shot in the early 1990s, however, it’s not clear where it takes place.”

    Like a lot of what is broadly seen today as reprehensible behaviour back in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, I believe this type of character playing was far more common or acceptable in the early 1990s. He was also younger then. So I think dredging up this past maybe should be tempered with the realities of the day.
    The first one, he was a drama teacher, who should of known better. There's a pattern, he lied about SNC, he lied about JWR, and he lied about blackface.( he said last night, there was one another time )JT is a hypocrite..
    Is it three instances or three photos of two instances?
    Three instances!
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    I guess, he can kiss his UN job goodbye!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    Not sure if anyone else feels the same, but this feels like one of those elections with no good options to vote.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...eral-campaign/

    Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau is delaying the release of independent reports on the cost of his promises and will not be submitting all of his election pledges for review by the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

    It is the first election campaign in which political parties have the option of submitting potential campaign promises to the PBO in confidence for an analysis of the estimated cost. If the party decides to go ahead with the idea, it can then authorize the PBO to post its analysis online.

    The Liberals legislated the new rules after promising the change in their 2015 platform, which said it would “help Canadians make informed decisions during elections.”

    However, the Liberal campaign team said the party is only submitting “big ticket” proposals to the PBO for costing. The party is also delaying the release of related PBO reports until the full platform is released because some promises are connected and releasing costing reports individually “wouldn’t tell the whole story.”
    I’ve been saying to friends that I like Jagmeet Singh because he’s the only one that seems authentic.
    He certainly seemed that way this morning, he's authentic, because he's lived this.
    I listened to Scheer this morning, and he didn't sound gleeful, he just pointed out( as I've always known) JT is not as advertised. People can forgive and forget, and vote for Trudeau, but things are piling up on him. For me, he lies far too easily, and the sunny ways?never bought into it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “The video was shot in the early 1990s, however, it’s not clear where it takes place.”

    Like a lot of what is broadly seen today as reprehensible behaviour back in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, I believe this type of character playing was far more common or acceptable in the early 1990s. He was also younger then. So I think dredging up this past maybe should be tempered with the realities of the day.
    how to deal with it today - or not, as the case may be - by us and by him is up to us and up to him. but i remember the 1970's, 80's and 90's and it was neither common nor acceptable in the early 1990's. and it clearly should have been unacceptable in a teaching and educational role even if that position was also secured on name recognition and family connections. from creston to here to india to the "i'm ****** off at myself and there is no higher punishment so move along nothing to see here non apology" and everything in between, there's a pattern and a consistency here that should be deeply troubling.
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  12. #4412

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    The photos of Canada's Prime Minister wearing blackface (on multiple occasions now) is all over international headlines.

    It's poetic justice that this emerges after months of him and his party trying to divide Canadian people and pandering to ethnic minority groups for votes by calling conservatives racists all the time.

  13. #4413

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    I think all of us have done things when we were younger/ teenagers that would definitely be not appropriate now.

    Some things should be looked at differently, especially when it comes to being a teenager and in the context of stupidity.However, when it comes to politics and PM's, the bar is higher. Period.

    He obviously knew about this and chose not to disclose it, especially when he was shouting down people and calling them racists at press conferences. Maybe he should do the right thing for the country and step down and call it a day.

  14. #4414

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    Would it be racist if he did whiteface?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  15. #4415

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    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
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  16. #4416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Would it be racist if he did whiteface?
    He did that, too:

    https://i.redd.it/7b48mjvprjn31.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    The photos of Canada's Prime Minister wearing blackface (on multiple occasions now) is all over international headlines.

    It's poetic justice that this emerges after months of him and his party trying to divide Canadian people and pandering to ethnic minority groups for votes by calling conservatives racists all the time.
    It is. I don't think Trudeau is racist, and I loathe the man. But his doing all he could, to paint all Conservatives as racists, disgusts me.
    I know many conservatives of colour, that quite frankly don't know where they stand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    I think all of us have done things when we were younger/ teenagers that would definitely be not appropriate now.

    Some things should be looked at differently, especially when it comes to being a teenager and in the context of stupidity.However, when it comes to politics and PM's, the bar is higher. Period.

    He obviously knew about this and chose not to disclose it, especially when he was shouting down people and calling them racists at press conferences. Maybe he should do the right thing for the country and step down and call it a day.
    emphasis added...

    except he wasn't a foolish teenager was he? he was almost 30 and he was a teacher responsible for educating and setting an example for young children at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Would it be racist if he did whiteface?
    Years ago in the UK, 60s, we had the black and white minstrel show, so that has already been done. It was enjoyed, by people that didn't know any better, it was pulled off the air
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    Trudeau was a teacher in 2001, not some ***** teen.
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  20. #4420

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    I think all of us have done things when we were younger/ teenagers that would definitely be not appropriate now. Some things should be looked at differently, especially when it comes to being a teenager and in the context of stupidity.However, when it comes to politics and PM's, the bar is higher. Period. He obviously knew about this and chose not to disclose it, especially when he was shouting down people and calling them racists at press conferences. Maybe he should do the right thing for the country and step down and call it a day.
    emphasis added...except he wasn't a foolish teenager was he? he was almost 30 and he was a teacher responsible for educating and setting an example for young children at the time.
    I agree. I was talking about the ones in high school, there is a world of difference between those and the one in 2001 when he was a teacher.

  21. #4421

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    Ted Danson at Whoopi Goldberg roast



    Why Whoopi Goldberg Wasn't Offended by Ted Danson's Blackface Routine in the Slightest
    https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertain...lightest.html/
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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    I think all of us have done things when we were younger/ teenagers that would definitely be not appropriate now. Some things should be looked at differently, especially when it comes to being a teenager and in the context of stupidity.However, when it comes to politics and PM's, the bar is higher. Period. He obviously knew about this and chose not to disclose it, especially when he was shouting down people and calling them racists at press conferences. Maybe he should do the right thing for the country and step down and call it a day.
    emphasis added...except he wasn't a foolish teenager was he? he was almost 30 and he was a teacher responsible for educating and setting an example for young children at the time.
    I agree. I was talking about the ones in high school, there is a world of difference between those and the one in 2001 when he was a teacher.
    I've never know anyone personally, that painted their face black or brown but in the last video, he did his face, arms and legs.. Peculiar.
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    And they were dating at the time.

  24. #4424

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau calls it racism.

    I see it as a grey area. If you dress up for a costume ball, as an actor for theater or for Halloween with no intent to mock or belittle others, I see no harm.

    If the intent was to harm and mock another group, then it is not right.

    There are pictures in our family photo album of me with an Indian costume made from paper bags. All the kids wore them including my best friend at the time who was half indigenous . It was a class project as we learned about Canadian history. It was when I was 8 years old and in grade two.

    Would you call that racist?

    Have you ever worn a costume that someone else may find racist today?
    I came to the thread pretty much knowing this would be your take and that you had done something similar in your childhood because its almost a meme with you.

    Perhaps I was less given to such silly displays, and mom dressed me in a gunslinger holstered Cowboy suit once to win a K Days contest, but I thought it silly and didn't see why I should be wearing cowboy boots, vest, hat, etc and never did again. not for Halloween, not for anything. Dressed as a Gorilla, spaceman, ghost, goblin, tiger, bear, but never culturally appropriated others, never wore black face, never wore redface. Simply didn't see the validity of trying to be some other race, or that it was funny, or any coherent thing to do.

    But you crossed fast moving rivers, jumped cliffs, milked kittens, did blackface, redface appropriating of culture so not surprised.

    That "all the kids did this" is further testimony to you normalizing something that simply wasn't that popular. You're attempting to make it a plurality when really its not.

    When I grew up some kid in the neighborhood having watched a deplorable western or John Wayne movie said "lets play Cowboys and Indians" at the age of 6 or 7 most of us recognized this already as pretty ridiculous, if not disturbing depiction and especially considering we were playing a lot with Indigenous youth. The activity didn't occur because we declined. it just seemed wrong to do. We already had that mindset.


    But its the droll equivocation that is most offensive. JT comes from a political family. His father was a longterm Prime Minister. He was born with every advantage, had the best education possible, he himself selected to be a teacher to teach and educate children and in so many ways he is sophomoric, disrespectful, has many aspects of a past inappropriate to political office, and culturally appropriated even as Prime Minister while in India.

    Higher standard applies, and yet it doesn't to JT, it never does in his "case by case" basis of scrutiny, which conveniently absolves him of consequence always.

    The real message in this once again is that JT is a hypocritical liar, the same person that didn't realize blackface was wrong back then still has no concept of cultural appropriation being wrong. Seemingly he does it any chance he gets and doesn't know why he shouldn't.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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  25. #4425

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    Ok, we get it. You lead a sheltered life and read Gandhi as a toddler and Plato by the time you began kindergarten.

    I guess you are just bitter that other kids grew up not being perfectly politically correct and had fun throwing snowballs, riding bikes without helmets and skipping school.

    Yes Replacement, you lead a sheltered life. So sorry for you that now you are perplexed why nobody thinks the way you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Ted Danson at Whoopi Goldberg roast



    Why Whoopi Goldberg Wasn't Offended by Ted Danson's Blackface Routine in the Slightest
    https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertain...lightest.html/
    not the same, not even slightly...

    ted danson's roast was a parody - a repudiation - of the very acts and actions trudeau willingly engaged in and enjoyed engaging in 8 years later. that roast - that extremely public repudiation - took place in 1993!

    you'd think that would be more than enough time for a drama teacher to become aware of issues even those in his field were regularly bringing to the forefront. it doesn't say much if he didn't understand and it doesn't say much - and probably less - if he did understand but just didn't care.
    Last edited by kcantor; 19-09-2019 at 12:32 PM.
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    Headlines around the world ,wow. Poster boy, fails.
    JWR looked upset, I knew she would be.
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  28. #4428

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Ok, we get it. You lead a sheltered life and read Gandhi as a toddler and Plato by the time you began kindergarten.

    I guess you are just bitter that other kids grew up not being perfectly politically correct and had fun throwing snowballs, riding bikes without helmets and skipping school.

    Yes Replacement, you lead a sheltered life. So sorry for you that now you are perplexed why nobody thinks the way you do.
    Had no shortage of throwing footballs, playing hockey, other sports and I was out all day exploring, hiking, going on expeditions to far reaches beyond city limit with lunch bag provisions on bicycles. We brought maps, knew where we were, and I had a keen sense of direction and understood how the sun at this latitude reveals direction.

    Not bitter about it, just that we're not foolish, and those that I hung around with were not foolish and attempting to drown ourselves in rivers either. We had tons of fun, without putting ourselves at needless risk or doing activities that would have been uncomfortable or even harmful to others.

    I get though that you were so foolish that you put not only yourself at risk but your friends in the very activities that you selected. Myself, and the friends I had showed a bit more responsibility. In my lexicon a better friend advises against extremely dangerous activity but as we've seen ymmv. You can bash away at that I guess attaching strawman critiques to it.

    Be sure to add suggestions of bubble wrapped kids as is your rebutting forte.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2019 at 12:46 PM.
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  29. #4429

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “The video was shot in the early 1990s, however, it’s not clear where it takes place.”

    Like a lot of what is broadly seen today as reprehensible behaviour back in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, I believe this type of character playing was far more common or acceptable in the early 1990s. He was also younger then. So I think dredging up this past maybe should be tempered with the realities of the day.
    how to deal with it today - or not, as the case may be - by us and by him is up to us and up to him. but i remember the 1970's, 80's and 90's and it was neither common nor acceptable in the early 1990's. and it clearly should have been unacceptable in a teaching and educational role even if that position was also secured on name recognition and family connections. from creston to here to india to the "i'm ****** off at myself and there is no higher punishment so move along nothing to see here non apology" and everything in between, there's a pattern and a consistency here that should be deeply troubling.
    Yeah, it wasn’t a issue I was very aware of if at all back then. There’s a whole lot of issues I wasn’t aware of concerning acting/actors that go back decades. (Typecasting of and barriers to most minorities, keeping specific populations like Jewish followers out of movies as far back as say the 1930s, typecasting and age discrimination against women...)

    I recall the weirdness of the media flurry about gay rights, gay marriage rights, Ellen DeGeneres revealing her sexual orientation and things like that. Then also the visible minority racism issues of the 1980s and 90s.



    This wasn’t very long ago:

    Ellen DeGeneres’s Groundbreaking Coming Out: 20 Years Later

    https://www.vanityfair.com/style/201...res-coming-out
    Last edited by KC; 19-09-2019 at 01:15 PM.

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    As opposed to his first apology, the one today was definitely more fulsome. Instead of making it about himself, he took responsibility for his actions and acknowledged the hurt they caused to many Canadians who face racism and discrimination.

    This has a good chance of blowing over if there are no more revelations. I understand not telling anyone about serious past indiscretions (perhaps not even your spouse) because of shame and embarrassment if Trudeau is being truthful on this point.

  31. #4431

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau calls it racism.

    I see it as a grey area. If you dress up for a costume ball, as an actor for theater or for Halloween with no intent to mock or belittle others, I see no harm.

    If the intent was to harm and mock another group, then it is not right.

    There are pictures in our family photo album of me with an Indian costume made from paper bags. All the kids wore them including my best friend at the time who was half indigenous . It was a class project as we learned about Canadian history. It was when I was 8 years old and in grade two.

    Would you call that racist?

    Have you ever worn a costume that someone else may find racist today?
    I came to the thread pretty much knowing this would be your take and that you had done something similar in your childhood because its almost a meme with you.

    Perhaps I was less given to such silly displays, and mom dressed me in a gunslinger holstered Cowboy suit once to win a K Days contest, but I thought it silly and didn't see why I should be wearing cowboy boots, vest, hat, etc and never did again. not for Halloween, not for anything. Dressed as a Gorilla, spaceman, ghost, goblin, tiger, bear, but never culturally appropriated others, never wore black face, never wore redface. Simply didn't see the validity of trying to be some other race, or that it was funny, or any coherent thing to do.

    But you crossed fast moving rivers, jumped cliffs, milked kittens, did blackface, redface appropriating of culture so not surprised.

    That "all the kids did this" is further testimony to you normalizing something that simply wasn't that popular. You're attempting to make it a plurality when really its not.

    When I grew up some kid in the neighborhood having watched a deplorable western or John Wayne movie said "lets play Cowboys and Indians" at the age of 6 or 7 most of us recognized this already as pretty ridiculous, if not disturbing depiction and especially considering we were playing a lot with Indigenous youth. The activity didn't occur because we declined. it just seemed wrong to do. We already had that mindset.


    But its the droll equivocation that is most offensive. JT comes from a political family. His father was a longterm Prime Minister. He was born with every advantage, had the best education possible, he himself selected to be a teacher to teach and educate children and in so many ways he is sophomoric, disrespectful, has many aspects of a past inappropriate to political office, and culturally appropriated even as Prime Minister while in India.

    Higher standard applies, and yet it doesn't to JT, it never does in his "case by case" basis of scrutiny, which conveniently absolves him of consequence always.

    The real message in this once again is that JT is a hypocritical liar, the same person that didn't realize blackface was wrong back then still has no concept of cultural appropriation being wrong. Seemingly he does it any chance he gets and doesn't know why he shouldn't.
    I don't think you should conclude he is a hypocritical liar. Yes, he did something in his past that seems to be at variance with his values now, but I suspect almost everyone has done something in their past that wasn't good or they regret in hindsight. Its part of being human. If we expect perfection in our political leaders, we are bound to be disappointed and frustrated. I suspect the photo albums and year books across the country and around the world are full of various politicians doing or saying various questionable things and we can dig up all kinds of stuff. It may give us some insight into the person, but it also may not be that relevant. Thankfully, up to now that has been more a US thing than here.

    It used to be quite popular when I was a kid to play cowboys and Indians. I agree these days that would not be considered proper, society's views change, evolve over time. I had a cowboy hat and a toy gun (I didn't ask for it, but thanks mom and dad), not an Indian costume and I don't recall play shooting Indians. It did seem a bit silly to me even back then, but others seemed to be really into it. I don't know know what that all means.

  32. #4432

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    You played Genocidal, Invading, Land Stealing Maniacs vs Plague Weakened, Starving, Robbed, Displaced Indigenous People?

    There’s a whole lot of education I’ve received and continue to receive that I was totally ignorant of - before.

    Long way me to go too.
    Last edited by KC; 19-09-2019 at 01:31 PM.

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    I don't know who JT is. He lectures us about diversity, he lectures us on being a feminist, he lectures us on climate change, and yet all three subjects, I have seen him do and say the exact opposite.
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  34. #4434

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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    I can imagine the reaction if it was a conservative candidate, let alone the leader...and btw, i dont think Trudeau is a racist whatsoever. Just a stupid mistake.

    Also weird how Time magazine first reported the story, and not one of our media.
    Yup. Prejudice (racist?) gross generalizing views against c/Conservatives would mean a permanent racist label slapped on any conservative candidate having done this.

    There would be no forgiveness as it would just be considered confirmation of the hateful stereotypes held against this group.
    Last edited by KC; 19-09-2019 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    As opposed to his first apology, the one today was definitely more fulsome. Instead of making it about himself, he took responsibility for his actions and acknowledged the hurt they caused to many Canadians who face racism and discrimination.

    This has a good chance of blowing over if there are no more revelations. I understand not telling anyone about serious past indiscretions (perhaps not even your spouse) because of shame and embarrassment if Trudeau is being truthful on this point.
    I think that's a problem, well a problem for him, you said IF Trudeau is being truthful. I don't know how you can tell anymore. Regardless, his brand has been tarnished, and other countries will look at him differently.

    Plenty of people grew up with privileged, and didn't stoop to painting their faces.
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  36. #4436

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau calls it racism.

    I see it as a grey area. If you dress up for a costume ball, as an actor for theater or for Halloween with no intent to mock or belittle others, I see no harm.

    If the intent was to harm and mock another group, then it is not right.

    There are pictures in our family photo album of me with an Indian costume made from paper bags. All the kids wore them including my best friend at the time who was half indigenous . It was a class project as we learned about Canadian history. It was when I was 8 years old and in grade two.

    Would you call that racist?

    Have you ever worn a costume that someone else may find racist today?
    I came to the thread pretty much knowing this would be your take and that you had done something similar in your childhood because its almost a meme with you.

    Perhaps I was less given to such silly displays, and mom dressed me in a gunslinger holstered Cowboy suit once to win a K Days contest, but I thought it silly and didn't see why I should be wearing cowboy boots, vest, hat, etc and never did again. not for Halloween, not for anything. Dressed as a Gorilla, spaceman, ghost, goblin, tiger, bear, but never culturally appropriated others, never wore black face, never wore redface. Simply didn't see the validity of trying to be some other race, or that it was funny, or any coherent thing to do.

    But you crossed fast moving rivers, jumped cliffs, milked kittens, did blackface, redface appropriating of culture so not surprised.

    That "all the kids did this" is further testimony to you normalizing something that simply wasn't that popular. You're attempting to make it a plurality when really its not.

    When I grew up some kid in the neighborhood having watched a deplorable western or John Wayne movie said "lets play Cowboys and Indians" at the age of 6 or 7 most of us recognized this already as pretty ridiculous, if not disturbing depiction and especially considering we were playing a lot with Indigenous youth. The activity didn't occur because we declined. it just seemed wrong to do. We already had that mindset.


    But its the droll equivocation that is most offensive. JT comes from a political family. His father was a longterm Prime Minister. He was born with every advantage, had the best education possible, he himself selected to be a teacher to teach and educate children and in so many ways he is sophomoric, disrespectful, has many aspects of a past inappropriate to political office, and culturally appropriated even as Prime Minister while in India.

    Higher standard applies, and yet it doesn't to JT, it never does in his "case by case" basis of scrutiny, which conveniently absolves him of consequence always.

    The real message in this once again is that JT is a hypocritical liar, the same person that didn't realize blackface was wrong back then still has no concept of cultural appropriation being wrong. Seemingly he does it any chance he gets and doesn't know why he shouldn't.
    I don't think you should conclude he is a hypocritical liar. Yes, he did something in his past that seems to be at variance with his values now, but I suspect almost everyone has done something in their past that wasn't good or they regret in hindsight. Its part of being human. If we expect perfection in our political leaders, we are bound to be disappointed and frustrated. I suspect the photo albums and year books across the country and around the world are full of various politicians doing or saying various questionable things and we can dig up all kinds of stuff. It may give us some insight into the person, but it also may not be that relevant. Thankfully, up to now that has been more a US thing than here.

    It used to be quite popular when I was a kid to play cowboys and Indians. I agree these days that would not be considered proper, society's views change, evolve over time. I had a cowboy hat and a toy gun (I didn't ask for it, but thanks mom and dad), not an Indian costume and I don't recall play shooting Indians. It did seem a bit silly to me even back then, but others seemed to be really into it. I don't know know what that all means.
    Some background. I thankfully grew up in a diverse, but challenging impoverished area with many different cultures. So that such activities as playing cowboys and Indians would be outed as improper the moment they ever got started. (and didn't) I don't know how other areas or communities figured cowboys and Indians was OK play with indigenous kids participating. I don't get how that inclusively occurs on a friendly level. I just don't. Treating our friends with respect we declined to involve in activities and play they were not comfortable with. Perhaps we were accepting enough to listen to them as well and for them to have empowered voice..War games were not acceptable in our neighborhood either due to the ethnic configuration. This was not considered innocent play, if it was even considered. When your parents have been in wars, internment, concentration camps, or were civilian victims you learned that war games are simply not games, its the depiction of evil or hell on Earth.

    Trudeau is a hypocritical liar for not this reason alone but for a list of them that would span pages and that I don't need to type out. Pretty much anybody could write a topten, and his statements are not white lies. They are clearly intentional misinformation. But for somebody that has made it a missive to be the better way, the future, and who self describes enlightenment all of Trudeaus misgivings and "she perceived that differently" perspectives are shockingly ironic. The man is a clown, I would be embarrassed to be him, and to have his published track record. But he's incapable of acknowledging it or even seeing it. The same self lying that allows himself to consider that he is a divine world leader of society, is the same self conceit that deep down see's no fault in himself. I was taught apology means you are heartfelt, and with honest intent to refrain from similar. To learn something of your behavior and not have countless instances of stepping in it.

    Trudeau culturally appropriated, which was mocked and critiqued world over, DURING his trip to India. He did it extensively. He STILL doesn't understand what cultural appropriation is or why its inappropriate to engage in it. He's a teacher, an educator, a leader, a Prime Minister, and he doesn't get it but we've always known he's very poorly suited for office.

    Trudeau is an embarrassment, but will never see that, and many liberal supporters, maybe even a plurality, will excuse it, or not hold him accountable for it.
    "
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2019 at 02:01 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  37. #4437

    Default

    But many of us learned from our mistakes, evolved, changed our ways, show more empathy and became better people. We have coworkers, close friends and intimate relations with people of all color, religion and background.

    Others have not and remain as bigots

    bigot noun
    big·​ot | \ ˈbi-gət \
    Definition of bigot
    : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
    especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
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  38. #4438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    But many of us learned from our mistakes, evolved, changed our ways, show more empathy and became better people. We have coworkers, close friends and intimate relations with people of all color, religion and background.

    Others have not and remain as bigots

    bigot noun
    big·​ot | \ ˈbi-gət \
    Definition of bigot
    : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
    especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
    I think it’s somewhat a hazard of the job. Falls out of their common processes.

    Political parties pursue votes through the most efficient means they can. So they focus on various agglomerations of people and target the leaders hoping the members/followers will fall in line and mindlessly vote accordingly the leaders’ wishes. So by its nature it’s a top-down (rooted in bigotry? segregationism? ) process. They can’t afford to see and treat all voters as individuals thinking independently, because they first must target the religious, ethnic, business, union or whatever leaders.

    Get the left vote, the educated vote, the uneducated vote, the minority vote, the Catholic vote, the small business vote, the millennial vote... it’s endless and each label represents gross and ignorant generalizations.

    These political parties all seem to attend functions hosted by various groups (vested interest groups) to obtain block votes. I see it as process driven.
    Last edited by KC; 19-09-2019 at 01:59 PM.

  39. #4439
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    https://election.ctvnews.ca/trudeau-...rged-1.4601153


    Good! he needs to know, his actions have consequences. This is just one of them

    Trudeau is an embarrassment, but will never see that, and many liberal supporters, maybe even a plurality, will excuse it, or not hold him accountable for it.
    "
    Exactly.
    Animals are my passion.

  40. #4440

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    https://election.ctvnews.ca/trudeau-...rged-1.4601153


    Good! he needs to know, his actions have consequences. This is just one of them

    Trudeau is an embarrassment, but will never see that, and many liberal supporters, maybe even a plurality, will excuse it, or not hold him accountable for it.
    "
    Exactly.
    Stick with the team no matter what? Don’t many Conservatives do that too?

  41. #4441
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Would it be racist if he did whiteface?
    He did that, too:

    https://i.redd.it/7b48mjvprjn31.jpg
    Is that legit? Yeesh. Mr Dressup indeed.

  42. #4442

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    https://election.ctvnews.ca/trudeau-...rged-1.4601153


    Good! he needs to know, his actions have consequences. This is just one of them

    Trudeau is an embarrassment, but will never see that, and many liberal supporters, maybe even a plurality, will excuse it, or not hold him accountable for it.
    "
    Exactly.
    Stick with the team no matter what? Don’t many Conservatives do that too?
    Isn't that disingenuous invoking of same stripes? Maybe that could be said of Alberta through dynamic. But not many provinces having the Fed Libs stick the finger at them figuratively, literally and really.

    Identity politics, like that practiced by the Fed Libs is an attempt to gain office, and stay in office due to vague assertions about the Cons. About "Not going back to Harpers", about being "forward thinking" implying that the Cons are immutably backward.

    In my entire life I've seen Liberals primarily campaign strictly on impugning the opposition while self describing vague notions of being the only legitimate choice.

    I've seen Cons often run on budget pragmatism, limiting deficit and debt, spending less, etc.

    Maybe in context these are not one and the same.


    Trudeau is running this re-election campaign again on rhetoric (like he did against Harper) and while he wears no clothes and intently avoids question periods, declines questions during rallies, as well as skipping leadership debates. This is reelection on a smile, accountability in office be damned, informed democracy be damned.

    its bad enough to play identity divisive politics. But when you ARE that identity that you are conflating its sheer comedy.

    As Rex Murphy once stated if Trudeau lost his party leadership, or was voted out it would be a shame because we would lose out on all this unintended comedic material.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2019 at 02:23 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  43. #4443

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    Yes, for H.L., I resort to whataboutism at every opportunity.

  44. #4444
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Yes, for H.L., I resort to whataboutism at every opportunity.
    I don't know why, or care.
    Animals are my passion.

  45. #4445
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Exclusive: Video shows Trudeau in blackface in 3rd instance of racist makeup - National | Globalnews.ca

    https://globalnews.ca/news/5922861/j...ownface-video/


    KINSELLA: Blackface photo shows why it’s time to cancel the Trudeau show – Toronto Sun

    “Blackface.

    I’ve been writing about, and researching – and opposing – racism for more than thirty years. And make no mistake: blackface isn’t funny.

    It’s racist.”

    https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...o-be-cancelled

    In the blackface photo from his high school days that is in that news story is he eating fried chicken?

  46. #4446

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    You're missing the point. He's been the one running around calling everyone and anyone a racist, not the other way around.

  47. #4447
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    ???

    are you really calling all conservatives racist?

    or do you really think that it's only "some" conservatives who are racist?

    and do you really think that there aren't just as many liberal or ndp or bloc or green racists?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  48. #4448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    You're missing the point. He's been the one running around calling everyone and anyone a racist, not the other way around.

    Isn't that the truth!
    Animals are my passion.

  49. #4449
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    The majority of quebeckers have been known to be liberals over the years yet Jagmeet Singh is not allowed to hold a position there, by law. So being a liberal does not necessarily mean non racist.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 19-09-2019 at 04:02 PM.

  50. #4450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The majority of Quebeckers have been known to be liberals over the years yet Jagmeet Singh is not allowed to hold a position there, by law.
    What if he holds onto seats there?
    Animals are my passion.

  51. #4451

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    Look at all the white liberals in here defending a grown man wearing blackface over and over again. What a bunch of clueless racists.

  52. #4452

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Lets remember that Trudork isn't the only PM that hasn't shown up for a leadership debate. However its been mostly Liberals that don't show up for a televised debate since these debates have been televised since 1968.
    He's an @sshole, that panders to Quebec.
    ...and panders to Alberta.

    Did Scheer buy a pipeline company lately?

    When it comes to @ssholes, you are front and center.
    Scheer wasn't in any position to buy a pipeline company. And how's that working out for us so far? Must be some mighty big interest payments on a loan that large. It's like buying a house that you can't live in.
    Why don't you read the Trans Mountain financial statements since the feds bought the pipeline before making uninformed comments?

    Audited financial statements for 2018 here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/t...08#asset:16111

    Unaudited six month statements for first two quarters of 2019 here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/t...24#asset:17234

    Bottom line. The existing pipeline unburdened by the expansion project is a solid money maker. All the risk is in the expansion project.

    Considering how vilified Trudeau is in Alberta, the decision to buy Trans Mountain to keep the expansion project alive does seem puzzling on many levels.
    Exactly, so you acknowledge the purchase of the expansion portion is highly risky, based on the roadblocks we've seen and the temperature of the country. I'm not an accountant, but I know that buying even a portion of something that cannot get off the ground is risky and facing future impediments is dumb. But hey, it's taxpayers money though, right, and why not use their own money to try to buy some extra votes?
    Last edited by Stoneman; 19-09-2019 at 04:06 PM.

  53. #4453

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Look at all the white liberals in here defending a grown man wearing blackface over and over again. What a bunch of clueless racists.
    You’re loving this!

  54. #4454

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The majority of quebeckers have been known to be liberals over the years yet Jagmeet Singh is not allowed to hold a position there, by law. So being a liberal does not necessarily mean non racist.

    Funny but wrong. The Quebec vote is far more divergent than Alberta's nearly monolithic voting block.

    The CAQ won the provincial election in 2018 and it took out the Liberals soundly. The CAQ is a conservative right wing government.

    On the Federal level, in 2015 the Liberals got 40 seats but only 35.7% of the votes, lower than the national average of 39.5%
    The Conservatives got 12 seats and 16.7% of the vote, far less than the 31.9% national average
    The big difference is the NDP vote of 16 seats and 25.4% of the vote, far higher than the 19.7% national average
    The Bloc Québécois is the vote splitter and unique in Canada with 10 seats and 19.3% of the vote

    Alberta votes Liberal in only 4 ridings with a total provincial vote of 24.6%
    The Conservatives got 29 seats and 59.5% of the vote and the NDP with only one seat and 11.6%

    The big liberal provinces that voted above the national average were MB, ON, NB, NS, PEI, NL and the three territories, amounting to 122 seats with Ontario voting the Liberals with 80 seats and 44.8% of the vote.

    If you want to lay blame on a province, look no further than Ontario, not Quebec

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...deral_election
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  55. #4455

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Look at all the white liberals in here defending a grown man wearing blackface over and over again. What a bunch of clueless racists.
    You’re loving this!
    Yup, MrOilers crawled out from under his rock today.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  56. #4456

    Default

    'No excuse': Canada's press condemns Trudeau's 'brownface' photos - BBC News

    “Another article in the same title cites Professor Cheryl Thompson, who has studied the phenomenon of blackface in Canada. She told the magazine it "was not nearly so widely denounced in 2001 as it is now" and credits Mr Trudeau for apologising unequivocally, but says she hopes his colleagues will not "let him off easily". ...”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49758180




    The yearbook people even published it! They obviously didn’t see it as racist and disrespectful or hurtful. White privileged (aka clueless) school?



    Justin Trudeau: Canada PM in 'brownface' 2001 yearbook photo - BBC News

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49749851
    Last edited by KC; 19-09-2019 at 05:48 PM.

  57. #4457
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    Anyone else watching the town hall meeting from Saskatoon ? A bit awkward I’m sure.

  58. #4458

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Anyone else watching the town hall meeting from Saskatoon ? A bit awkward I’m sure.
    You do this to yourself by choice?

  59. #4459
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    I was watching it but then they cut off to the news

  60. #4460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Anyone else watching the town hall meeting from Saskatoon ? A bit awkward I’m sure.

    Nope.
    Animals are my passion.

  61. #4461

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    You're missing the point. He's been the one running around calling everyone and anyone a racist, not the other way around.

    Isn't that the truth!
    Yep, remember this. A Canadian asks if the Federal govt is going to cover the costs of refugees, and he shuts her down.

    https://edmontonsun.com/news/national/justin-trudeau-defends-calling-female-heckler-racist/wcm/90f1cd20-305e-4526-9fdc-c8bee4e05b3d


  62. #4462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Lets remember that Trudork isn't the only PM that hasn't shown up for a leadership debate. However its been mostly Liberals that don't show up for a televised debate since these debates have been televised since 1968.
    He's an @sshole, that panders to Quebec.
    ...and panders to Alberta.

    Did Scheer buy a pipeline company lately?

    When it comes to @ssholes, you are front and center.
    Scheer wasn't in any position to buy a pipeline company. And how's that working out for us so far? Must be some mighty big interest payments on a loan that large. It's like buying a house that you can't live in.
    Why don't you read the Trans Mountain financial statements since the feds bought the pipeline before making uninformed comments?

    Audited financial statements for 2018 here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/t...08#asset:16111

    Unaudited six month statements for first two quarters of 2019 here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/t...24#asset:17234

    Bottom line. The existing pipeline unburdened by the expansion project is a solid money maker. All the risk is in the expansion project.

    Considering how vilified Trudeau is in Alberta, the decision to buy Trans Mountain to keep the expansion project alive does seem puzzling on many levels.
    Exactly, so you acknowledge the purchase of the expansion portion is highly risky, based on the roadblocks we've seen and the temperature of the country. I'm not an accountant, but I know that buying even a portion of something that cannot get off the ground is risky and facing future impediments is dumb. But hey, it's taxpayers money though, right, and why not use their own money to try to buy some extra votes?

    Yes! Let’s look at the bigger picture: this latest scandal, along with the rest of his tenure as PM, makes it really hard to accept he has a sound judgment.

    - His whole India trip
    - His decision to try to advance the interests of SNC against the rule of law in the first place
    - His campaign to pressure JWR to advance SNC interests
    - the dismal of JWR and Jane Philpott
    - the optics of not revoking cabinet confidentiality so authorities can uncover the truth
    - how he “accepted” ethics commissionaire findings (no apology, no change of course, no consequence whatsoever)
    - the sheer number of times he has had to apologize (the Elbowgate, handling the Grassy Narrows protester etc)
    - Continued sales of weapons to Saudis, even after they tried to make an example of Canada’s criticism of their human rights record, and even evidence has surfaced that said weapons are being deployed in Yemen, a war crime zone
    - The above post re buying the pipeline while at same time also advancing bills like C-68 that negates the benefits of the pipeline (possibly a sign he never really intended to see the pipeline being built)

    The most decent thing to do now for him is to, make the right decision and be the change he advocates and step down. But alas, did I tell you he doesn’t have the good judgment and he won’t do that.

  63. #4463

    Default

    Ok, JT is out.

    I will ask again. My wife is asking too. Who do we vote for?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  64. #4464

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    You're missing the point. He's been the one running around calling everyone and anyone a racist, not the other way around.

    Isn't that the truth!
    Yep, remember this. A Canadian asks if the Federal govt is going to cover the costs of refugees, and he shuts her down.

    https://edmontonsun.com/news/national/justin-trudeau-defends-calling-female-heckler-racist/wcm/90f1cd20-305e-4526-9fdc-c8bee4e05b3d

    It would be interesting if his tactic was used against him in the debates.

    Trudeau defends calling heckler racist - YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCl0IyJbmk



    Canadian PM Justin Trudeau defends 'racism' jab at heckler - BBC News
    August 20, 2018

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45250920
    Last edited by KC; 20-09-2019 at 05:51 AM.

  65. #4465

    Default

    “Those photos of Justin Trudeau don’t matter.” ...



    ‘Really disturbing:’ Trudeau’s racist photos worry B.C. First Nation chief – Nelson Star

    “Dave Birdi, the Liberal candidate and himself a person of South Asian descent, downplayed the issue.

    “My main focus is on jobs,” he said. “With this, I do have trust with Trudeau.

    “Those photos of Justin Trudeau don’t matter. ...”

    https://www.nelsonstar.com/federal-e...nation-chief/#

  66. #4466

    Default

    “We were all, by today’s standards, extremely racist.” - Jonathan Kay

    Jonathan Kay: Conservatives shouldn't unleash cancel-culture insanity on the wounded Trudeau - National Post


    “That’s the way things were back then. We were all, by today’s standards, extremely racist.”

    “...we all know that if the shoe were on the other foot, and photos of Andrew Scheer in cosmetically enhanced faux-black mode were making the rounds, those same Liberals now insisting this is a “learning moment” would cite this as horrifying evidence of alt-right crypto-Breitbartian Faith-Goldyism.
    But, and it pains me to say it, but Trudeau’s defenders aren’t...”

    “We don’t need this “learning opportunity” to teach us not to paint our faces. We already knew that. What we need to learn is how not to vilify each other for things we did half a lifetime ago.”

    https://nationalpost.com/opinion/jon...ounded-trudeau

    Last edited by KC; 20-09-2019 at 06:14 AM.

  67. #4467

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    “Liberal party researchers discovered and published a trove of controversial social media posts made by Conservatives ”


    Scheer will stand by candidates with racist, homophobic past comments as long as they apologize


    Leader has been dogged by Liberals' release of Conservative candidates' posts on social media

    Katie Simpson - CBC News, September 15, 2019

    “...Liberal party researchers discovered and published a trove of controversial social media posts made by Conservatives running in the fall election.“

    “"As long as someone takes responsibility for what they've said, and addresses the fact that in 2019 some things that may have been said in the past are inappropriate today, that if anything that they've ever said in the past caused any type of hurt or disrespect to one community or another and have apologized for that, I accept that," Scheer ...”

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/con...lane-1.5284304


    Trudeau says he never told candidate-vetting committee about blackface because he was embarrassed | CBC News


    "Failure to disclose such information constitutes non-compliance with these rules … and may result in the disqualification of a qualified nomination contestant."


    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...ting-1.5290728
    Bolding mine
    Last edited by KC; 20-09-2019 at 06:28 AM.

  68. #4468

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    ^ Embarrassed. Yeah right. He was more concerned with his squeaky clean image than telling the truth.

  69. #4469

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    ^^ What we need to learn is how not to vilify each other for things we did half a lifetime ago.”

    Except that it was not half a lifetime ago. It was 17years ago. If this was anybody else, JT would be on his soapbox calling for them to step down.

    He should do the right thing and step down, he's just not ready to be PM

  70. #4470

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    ???

    are you really calling all conservatives racist?

    or do you really think that it's only "some" conservatives who are racist?

    and do you really think that there aren't just as many liberal or ndp or bloc or green racists?
    The words "all" and "racist" do not appear in my post referencing conservatives. Not all conservatives are racist, but the vast majority of bigots are found on the right side of the spectrum. Some are racists, some are intolerant of other religions, some are sexist, some are homophobic, some are classist, some are ableist, some are ageist & so on & so forth. If there's a protected class enshrined in the Charter there's a conservative wanting to remove that protection somewhere.

    Thinking all sides of the spectrum must be just as full of bigots as your own is some Republican-grade projection.
    Last edited by noodle; 20-09-2019 at 08:40 AM. Reason: forgot 2 words.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  71. #4471

    Default



    And Scheer is the moderate conservative choice this election...
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  72. #4472
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    ...

    Thinking all sides of the spectrum must be just as full of bigots as your own is some Republican-grade projection.
    or just my own personal experiences with all sides of the spectrum for almost seven decades.

    and you're welcome to say "that's a small sample size" but it's a sample that's had lots of exposure to all sides of the spectrum in numerous locales and numerous forums throughout that length of time. i'll stand by my conclusion that you'll find similar levels of bigotry just about anywhere.
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  73. #4473

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    ???

    are you really calling all conservatives racist?

    or do you really think that it's only "some" conservatives who are racist?

    and do you really think that there aren't just as many liberal or ndp or bloc or green racists?
    The words "all" and "racist" do not appear in my post referencing conservatives. Not all conservatives are racist, but the vast majority of bigots are found on the right side of the spectrum. Some are racists, some are intolerant of other religions, some are sexist, some are homophobic, some are classist, some are ableist, some are ageist & so on & so forth. If there's a protected class enshrined in the Charter there's a conservative wanting to remove that protection somewhere.

    Thinking all sides of the spectrum must be just as full of bigots as your own is some Republican-grade projection.
    A reasonable position however it needs to address the scale of issue. One can similarly say that the priesthood or all religious groups for that matter, are where you find degenerates. How large a proportion of them occupy the larger group is hard to say.

  74. #4474

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    i'll stand by my conclusion that you'll find similar levels of bigotry just about anywhere.
    And I'll stand by my conclusion that when bigotry & intolerance* are found ensconced in a party's platform or politics that you're gonna be on the right wing.

    *: Intolerance of the intolerant notwithstanding.
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  75. #4475

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    A reasonable position however it needs to address the scale of issue. One can similarly say that the priesthood or all religious groups for that matter, are where you find degenerates. How large a proportion of them occupy the larger group is hard to say.
    The people who turn a blind eye to the regressive social policies & continue their general support are every bit as complicit in the consequences of those policies as the most fervent direct supporters of said bigotry.
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    ^Wow. Are you sure you want to go down this binary thinking rabbit hole?

    I know many fair minded conservatives who once opposed same sex marriage but have either moved on or even come to embrace it. To lump all of these folks in with a relatively small proportion of the electorate who still might still regressive views is itself a form of intolerance.

  77. #4477

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    They're the ones choosing to lie down with dogs. They're the one casting their lot with the bigots. They're the ones providing tacit approval of the bigoted ideas by continuing to support a party which continues to provide safe harbor to bigots. If non-bigoted conservatives don't want to be lumped in with the knuckledragging regressives it is upon them to clean their own house & purge out the regressive social conservatives.

    I have no obligation to determine if you're a "good" supporter of bigots or a "bad" one, as that determination is irrelevant to the larger issue of being a supporter & endorser of bigotry. There's no good reason to support bigotry.

    Time to haul out Karl Popper again.

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  78. #4478

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    Liberal campaign signs got defaced with blackface:

    https://globalnews.ca/news/5925010/k...=%40globalnews

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    i'll stand by my conclusion that you'll find similar levels of bigotry just about anywhere.
    And I'll stand by my conclusion that when bigotry & intolerance* are found ensconced in a party's platform or politics that you're gonna be on the right wing.

    *: Intolerance of the intolerant notwithstanding.
    and if you think the presence or the absence of bigotry is reflected solely in what may or may not be interpreted as being in a party's platforms and not in the thoughts and actions of those in the party, you need to get out more.

    https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...arning-for-ndp

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-left-bigotry

    https://ammsa.com/publications/saska...nakew-activism

    when it's seen by one side of the spectrum in the other it's considered representative yet in the mirror it's considered "moments of indiscretion".

    they're not "moments of indiscretion". they're moments where the public mask in front of what's always been there slips a little.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/10-wa...s-pe_b_8068136

    i have already posted my thoughts on a 29 year old teacher putting on black-face so don't need to repeat them here. but what i will add is that professing not to be able to remember how many times you would have done that is simply unbelievable. when caught once it was apologized for and when questioned about other occasions a second was acknowledged. when a third was discovered and publicized it becomes "i can't remember but there may have been others". i can't remember? black-face isn't the sort of thing that just happens to be in your bathroom cabinet and isn't the sort of thing that can be applied or worn or removed without considerable time and effort being spent on the task.

    should he be removed from office? probably not, the voters will determine that at the riding level and nationally soon enough. but the fact that none of these instances were ever disclosed by him during any of the vetting done by the liberal party speaks volumes. he didn't disclose any of the instances not because they were innocent acts but because in his own words he was "too embarrassed". one is not too embarrassed by things that are innocent, one is too embarrassed by things that one knows to be wrong and hurtful to other. even with his apologies, he seems to want it both ways simply because, just like with many of his other actions, it's him.

    we are likely all to have done things wrong, particularly in hindsight. but if you have character and substance you admit them, perhaps not voluntarily but certainly when specifically asked about them or their existence. and he would have been specifically asked, on more than one occasion, and would have lied in his responses on each of those occasions. and now, when continued lying might be discovered as such, the fallback becomes "i simply don't remember". which says a number of things both about the person and about the party doesn't it?

    the presence of bigotry in a party has little to do with the party's official platforms (although this is party that has a history of having it in its platforms as well) and much to do with what's commonly accepted even if tacitly, wink wink. it's no different in the ndp or the greens or the bloc. it's probably no different in any selection of human beings whether organized in some fashion or totally random. and thinking it only exists in certain places or organizations and not others only helps in perpetuating it.

    as for poppers' paradox of intolerance, that needs to apply wherever one finds intolerance and bigotry, not simply where it's easy to apply. even in this forum, it's pretty easy to find lots of examples of where it should be applied to both ends of the political spectrum.
    Last edited by kcantor; 20-09-2019 at 10:40 AM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  80. #4480

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    You rip Trudeau a new one for not apologizing appropriately but I don't see the same sort of outrage regarding Scheer & his complete lack of apology for his far more recent, deliberate & intended discrimination displayed on the floor of Parliament.



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  81. #4481

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    "The poorly-thought-through, accidental & apologetic racist should step aside & let the genuine & dedicated bigots take the wheel" - conservatives in the thread.
    ???

    are you really calling all conservatives racist?

    or do you really think that it's only "some" conservatives who are racist?

    and do you really think that there aren't just as many liberal or ndp or bloc or green racists?
    The words "all" and "racist" do not appear in my post referencing conservatives. Not all conservatives are racist, but the vast majority of bigots are found on the right side of the spectrum. Some are racists, some are intolerant of other religions, some are sexist, some are homophobic, some are classist, some are ableist, some are ageist & so on & so forth. If there's a protected class enshrined in the Charter there's a conservative wanting to remove that protection somewhere.

    Thinking all sides of the spectrum must be just as full of bigots as your own is some Republican-grade projection.
    A reasonable position however it needs to address the scale of issue. One can similarly say that the priesthood or all religious groups for that matter, are where you find degenerates. How large a proportion of them occupy the larger group is hard to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    A reasonable position however it needs to address the scale of issue. One can similarly say that the priesthood or all religious groups for that matter, are where you find degenerates. How large a proportion of them occupy the larger group is hard to say.
    The people who turn a blind eye to the regressive social policies & continue their general support are every bit as complicit in the consequences of those policies as the most fervent direct supporters of said bigotry.

    So while you highlight that you didn’t say “all” you appear to say that you meant to say “all”.
    Last edited by KC; 20-09-2019 at 11:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You rip Trudeau a new one for not apologizing appropriately but I don't see the same sort of outrage regarding Scheer & his complete lack of apology for his far more recent, deliberate & intended discrimination displayed on the floor of Parliament.
    ...
    well this is the "Liberals And Trudeau - Performance Review!" thread isn't it?

    even you are free to start a "Conservatives and Scheer - Performance Review!" thread if you want one instead of playing what-aboutism in this one.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  83. #4483

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So while you highlight that you didn’t say “all” you appear o say that you meant to say “all”.
    No, I'm saying by throwing in your lot with bigots it's irrelevant whether or not you yourself are a bigot because you have helped empower bigots to do bigoted things.
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  84. #4484

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^Wow. Are you sure you want to go down this binary thinking rabbit hole?

    I know many fair minded conservatives who once opposed same sex marriage but have either moved on or even come to embrace it. To lump all of these folks in with a relatively small proportion of the electorate who still might still regressive views is itself a form of intolerance.
    It’s much like being a racist isn’t it? Characterizing / mischaracterizing an entire group based on a narrow and debasing view of a fewer number.

  85. #4485

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So while you highlight that you didn’t say “all” you appear o say that you meant to say “all”.
    No, I'm saying by throwing in your lot with bigots it's irrelevant whether or not you yourself are a bigot because you have helped empower bigots to do bigoted things.
    So the party should cancel the memberships of those that say or do bigoted things? Seems reasonable.

    (Not sure about those that have said and done bigoted things in the past.)

    Are you talking about candidates, party members, non-party member voters?
    Last edited by KC; 20-09-2019 at 11:55 AM.

  86. #4486

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    well this is the "Liberals And Trudeau - Performance Review!" thread isn't it?

    even you are free to start a "Conservatives and Scheer - Performance Review!" thread if you want one instead of playing what-aboutism in this one.
    Or you could just say you fundamentally & vehemently disagree with Scheer's bigoted & self-avowed stance contrary to the Charter & distance yourself from the bigotry & end the whole line of discussion instead of kicking the can down the semantic road in a very conservative-politician-non-answer-as-an-answer sort of way.
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  87. #4487

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So the party should cancel the memberships of those that say or do bigoted things? Seems reasonable.

    (Not sure about those that have said and done bigoted things in the past.)
    Easiest way to not look like a bunch of bigots banded together is to stop banding together with bigots.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  88. #4488

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So the party should cancel the memberships of those that say or do bigoted things? Seems reasonable.

    (Not sure about those that have said and done bigoted things in the past.)
    Easiest way to not look like a bunch of bigots banded together is to stop banding together with bigots.
    Then Trudeau should be removed from the Liberal Party?

  89. #4489

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Then Trudeau should be removed from the Liberal Party?
    That's for the Liberal Party to decide.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  90. #4490

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    (Funny that I ask a question about his opinion of Scheer's history of bigotry vis a vis Trudeau & I'm dealing in off-topic whataboutism but an Ottawa Citizen opinion column about the British Left & the NDP is right on point for Ken.)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  91. #4491

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    Justin Trudeau said that wearing his blackface was racist. So it must be pretty racist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    well this is the "Liberals And Trudeau - Performance Review!" thread isn't it?

    even you are free to start a "Conservatives and Scheer - Performance Review!" thread if you want one instead of playing what-aboutism in this one.
    Or you could just say you fundamentally & vehemently disagree with Scheer's bigoted & self-avowed stance contrary to the Charter & distance yourself from the bigotry & end the whole line of discussion instead of kicking the can down the semantic road in a very conservative-politician-non-answer-as-an-answer sort of way.
    okay... i fundamentally and vehemently disagree with scheer where his positions are bigoted irrespective of whether they are contrary to the charter or not.

    i don't understand what you mean when you talk about disagreeing with "his self-avowed stance"? he is entitled to his religious beliefs just as you are, just as trudeau is, just as chretien and martin were provided those religious beliefs remained private and did not influence decisions made and for the public realm.

    or are you saying that no practicing catholics or muslims or orthodox jews or evangelicals should be allowed to hold public office period even if they are committed to not letting their personal religious beliefs interfere with their public decision making?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  93. #4493

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Then Trudeau should be removed from the Liberal Party?
    That's for the Liberal Party to decide.
    My oh my.

    Said in such a very liberal-politician-non-answer-as-an-answer sort of way.

    I think you’d be screaming hypocrite at anyone that gave an answer like that.

    Moreover, Trudeau failed to disclose this. Chalk up one more ethical breach on his ledger.
    Last edited by KC; 20-09-2019 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    (Funny that I ask a question about his opinion of Scheer's history of bigotry vis a vis Trudeau & I'm dealing in off-topic whataboutism but an Ottawa Citizen opinion column about the British Left & the NDP is right on point for Ken.)
    it was entirely on point vis a vis your assertion that when bigotry and intolerance are found ensconced in a party's platform or politics that you're gonna be on the right wing.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  95. #4495

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    well this is the "Liberals And Trudeau - Performance Review!" thread isn't it?

    even you are free to start a "Conservatives and Scheer - Performance Review!" thread if you want one instead of playing what-aboutism in this one.
    Or you could just say you fundamentally & vehemently disagree with Scheer's bigoted & self-avowed stance contrary to the Charter & distance yourself from the bigotry & end the whole line of discussion instead of kicking the can down the semantic road in a very conservative-politician-non-answer-as-an-answer sort of way.
    okay... i fundamentally and vehemently disagree with scheer where his positions are bigoted irrespective of whether they are contrary to the charter or not.

    i don't understand what you mean when you talk about disagreeing with "his self-avowed stance"? he is entitled to his religious beliefs just as you are, just as trudeau is, just as chretien and martin were provided those religious beliefs remained private and did not influence decisions made and for the public realm.

    or are you saying that no practicing catholics or muslims or orthodox jews or evangelicals should be allowed to hold public office period even if they are committed to not letting their personal religious beliefs interfere with their public decision making?
    Yea, I think that’s what he is saying. Only followers of noodlism could hold power under him, in his ideal world.

  96. #4496

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    okay... i fundamentally and vehemently disagree with scheer where his positions are bigoted irrespective of whether they are contrary to the charter or not.
    What a weasely non-committal statement. Very on-brand. Do you specifically condemn his 2005 comments on the floor of the House regarding same-sex marriage, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    he is entitled to his religious beliefs just as you are, just as trudeau is, just as chretien and martin were provided those religious beliefs remained private and did not influence decisions made and for the public realm.
    Except he's used his faith as an excuse/justification for his bigotry on the floor of the House of Commons.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    or are you saying that no practicing catholics or muslims or orthodox jews or evangelicals should be allowed to hold public office period even if they are committed to not letting their personal religious beliefs interfere with their public decision making?
    Absolutely not, if you can keep it separated. Except that's patently not the case with the Conservative Party who allows free votes on social issues/matters of conscience.
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  97. #4497

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    The only good thing I can say is that at least JT gave a apology without hesitation and denials and excuses.

    A lot of other politicians go into full denial mode even despite photo evidence, especially south of the border.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    okay... i fundamentally and vehemently disagree with scheer where his positions are bigoted irrespective of whether they are contrary to the charter or not.
    What a weasely non-committal statement. Very on-brand. Do you specifically condemn his 2005 comments on the floor of the House regarding same-sex marriage, yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    he is entitled to his religious beliefs just as you are, just as trudeau is, just as chretien and martin were provided those religious beliefs remained private and did not influence decisions made and for the public realm.
    Except he's used his faith as an excuse/justification for his bigotry on the floor of the House of Commons.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    or are you saying that no practicing catholics or muslims or orthodox jews or evangelicals should be allowed to hold public office period even if they are committed to not letting their personal religious beliefs interfere with their public decision making?
    Absolutely not, if you can keep it separated. Except that's patently not the case with the Conservative Party who allows free votes on social issues/matters of conscience.
    in order:

    1. yes. my "weasely non-committal statement" as you choose to call it includes his 2005 comments regarding same-sex marriage. there were no exclusions to my statement so i'm not sure how you determined it to be weasely or non-committal. it also applies to all of the other conservatives who cast a free vote opposing same sex marriage and it also applies to all of the liberals who cast a free vote opposing same sex marriage.

    2. where he has used his faith as an excuse/justification for supporting bigotry on the floor of the house of commons he has in my opinion both erred and displayed poor judgement in doing so. and so have any other mp's regardless of their party affiliation who have done the same thing.

    3. it's no more patently the case with the conservative party than it is with the liberal party who also allow free votes on social issues/matters of conscience. the liberal platform in 2015 actually said it would make free votes in the house of commons standard practice albeit with some exceptions. the differences between the two parties on the matter of free votes and exceptions to free votes is pretty much the same. as far as i know, the ndp and the greens do not have a standing policy on free votes.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  99. #4499

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    The disease that divided our US cousins is filtering through here too: our hatred of the other side of political spectrum trumps any logic, common sense or principle.

    If Trudeau stands in the middle of the Bay Street and shoots someone in the bright daylight....

    (as long as he apologizes )

  100. #4500

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    3. it's no more patently the case with the conservative party than it is with the liberal party who also allow free votes on social issues/matters of conscience. the liberal platform in 2015 actually said it would make free votes in the house of commons standard practice albeit with some exceptions. the differences between the two parties on the matter of free votes and exceptions to free votes is pretty much the same. as far as i know, the ndp and the greens do not have a standing policy on free votes.
    For members of the Liberal Caucus, all votes will be free votes with theexception of:
    • those that implement the Liberal electoral platform;
    • traditional confidence matters, like the budget; and
    • those that address our shared values and the protections guaranteed bythe Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
    That's the 2015 Liberal platform taken from https://www.liberal.ca/wp-content/up...ddle-class.pdf & it's that last bolded-by-me point that's at the crux of the difference between the Conservatives & Liberals. Liberals would not be permitted a free vote when it comes to female body autonomy, Conservatives would be free to hide behind "sincerely held beliefs" to justify bigotry & the erosion of the rights of half of all Canadians.
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