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Thread: A Downtown for Everyone

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I like the premise.

    The only critique...downtown is not for everyone. I would tweek the message to say Downtown WELCOMES everyone...I think that is what it is trying to say...

    Yes, too picky...

    As soon as Downtown finally gets positive attention, folk like the guy above have to get "too picky" about something Edmonton has needed for a long time. There's always someone in the group who has to rain on a parade. If its not for you, you can always stay in the quiet, dense-less, suburbs and bury yourself in silence.

  2. #102

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    ^ I see the downtown booster club is full on defense mode here.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ I see the downtown booster club is full on defense mode here.
    I see you continue your curious habit of contributing next to nothing to any discussions here, instead choosing to troll downtown boosters, EdmontonPRT, and so on.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Last time I checked, many/most kids are 5-10mins from school, Grandin, Oliver, 109st 3 schools... Feel free to choose. Jr highs, high schools, all within 10mins. I took a bus to elementary, 25mins, took a bus to jr high, 15mins, bus to HS 25mins.

    There are many options centrally, but yes downtown proper is expensive, just like most cities. Choose less space and drop a car, walk, place value public spaces like ^in other major cities.

    Downtown will never be for 'everyone' to live , but that is not the point of this.
    Top_Dawg's alma mater is very exclusive.

    Only for the top percentile.

    Typical Joey buttfuck ham'n'egger could never handle it.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Downtown for Everyone*

    *Everyone being those 35 and under with no kids, or over the age of 65 with an empty nest.
    And during the day, other people to work or families to visit for events. I think that's what a downtown should be, last thing we need downtown is a bunch of families complaining about the noise from the nightclubs and bars downstairs waking up baby Joey, that's just a recipie for a very sterile / boring / lifeless downtown. Every neighbourhood doesn't have to be a haven for children / family friendly - we can have some fun adult areas to.
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-05-2015 at 10:11 AM.

  6. #106

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    Yes, but when we want adult fun, the same downtown boosters go all nimby.

    Case in point certain adult nightclubs.

  7. #107
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    Downtown proper can be inclusive and simply respect bylaws set out by the City. It is unlikely that you will have entertainment areas directly adjacent to a lot of housing, but housing that is more CBD/104st understands it is going to deal with more noise (to a point) than say McKay Ave. Respect and consideration is important in tight quarters.
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  8. #108

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    ^ I still think that woulda been a rocking place for a Strip Club.

    Even if you don't want to live DT I cant see how any forward thinking citizen doesn't see a rejuvenated Downtown core as a benefit to the entire city.

    You could never set foot in DT and stay in the safety of the burbs and still indirectly benefit from a rejuvenated DT core.
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  9. #109

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    Ahh I'm getting it. The ole downtown circlejerk. It's okay to make noise as long as it's noise I'm okay with. A downtown for everyone*

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ I see the downtown booster club is full on defense mode here.
    I see you continue your curious habit of contributing next to nothing to any discussions here, instead choosing to troll downtown boosters, EdmontonPRT, and so on.
    Thanks for your valuable addition to this fantastic thread. I see that you don't agree with my perspective, so instead of responding in a reasonable fashion, you've decided to name-call me a troll. Well played.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ I see the downtown booster club is full on defense mode here.
    I see you continue your curious habit of contributing next to nothing to any discussions here, instead choosing to troll downtown boosters, EdmontonPRT, and so on.
    Thanks for your valuable addition to this fantastic thread. I see that you don't agree with my perspective, so instead of responding in a reasonable fashion, you've decided to name-call me a troll. Well played.
    But but...he nailed it!

  12. #112

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    It's interesting how perspectives evolve, and people who once attacked anyone daring to criticize downtown start flinging names. Inevitable, natural, probably justified, yes. But still interesting.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    It's interesting how perspectives evolve, and people who once attacked anyone daring to criticize downtown start flinging names. Inevitable, natural, probably justified, yes. But still interesting.
    Isn't the name calling of "Booster club", "circle jerk" that is driving the tension.
    One guy can't express his disdain or whatever it is for downtown because he once liked it but it didn't live up to his expectations, or he didn't have the patience and gave up on it, or whatever reason and he moved out to the burbs and needs to mercilessly defend that choice.
    So now downtown is his personal whipping boy from whatever server room he locked himself in today.

  14. #114

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    Downtown for Everyone*

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    It's interesting how perspectives evolve, and people who once attacked anyone daring to criticize downtown start flinging names. Inevitable, natural, probably justified, yes. But still interesting.
    Isn't the name calling of "Booster club", "circle jerk" that is driving the tension.
    One guy can't express his disdain or whatever it is for downtown because he once liked it but it didn't live up to his expectations, or he didn't have the patience and gave up on it, or whatever reason and he moved out to the burbs and needs to mercilessly defend that choice.
    So now downtown is his personal whipping boy from whatever server room he locked himself in today.
    That's one perspective that happens to be your perspective. However from the moment I joined this board it was evident that anybody uestioning, critiquing the downtown or pointing out problems and weaknesses was derided and attacked in a large proportion of posts. The defensiveness of the downtown supporters had a lot to do with establishing the ongoing tone of the exchange in both downtown topics if not any topic that gets discussed here.
    The bolded portion of your post adds nothing to its content and suggests you've taken issue with another poster. The prelude to the bolded is assumptive speculation you've considered as fact. In anycase messageboard behavior ideally involves challenging and responding to the post and not attacking the poster personally. Although many people here have modeled the latter.

    All that said I've seen a lot of progress in both the downtown, and in the behavior and decorum on this board. One of the interesting parallel dynamics is that as Edmonton improves the disposition of its residents commenting on Edmonton becomes more positive with this being both natural, and understandable effect.
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  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    [Downtown will never be for 'everyone' to live , but that is not the point of this.
    I'm trying to be fair Ian but I don't comprehend this statement in the context of a thread and initiative entitled "Downtown for Edmonton"

    Not sure if you were being flippant with that but obviously, and as indicated in the thread the slogan is quite easily challenged and shown to be problematic.
    I would suggest that the slogan, rather than the intent and initiative, is badly conceived.

    It would be unfortunate if a poorly worded and thought out slogan does not capture properly the improvements that are occurring in the downtown and in its vision.
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    Are we way over thinking this slogan thing? I get that a slogan needs to describe both what a thing is but also what we want the thing to be, but how can we see "downtown for everyone" as a bad thing? or is the dissension about what downtown currently is? or the steps being taken to execute on that vision? to disagree with the slogan would suggest that in the future there a people the downtown is not for. who exactly might that be?

  18. #118

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    I'll risk getting roasted by the downtown apologists, but "for everyone" had better include easy access to affordable parking in the post-arena downtown. The apologists will cite the expensive parking in other cities, however we are a massive suburbia with a wee little downtown, and suburbia won't come here if it's a hassle and overly expensive to park. I think the public would largely accept $5 parking after 6pm, but anything more than that will turn folks away. The apologists may also suggest transit, but the bus sucks and LRT only hits a couple spots, so no. Plus, transit stops at what, 1am? Not exactly good if you plan on staying out late, and a $40 cab ride is not acceptable for "everyone".

    Downtown needs to be accessible to people who can't afford $100 in parking and/or transportation on top of their activities. I hope that's being taken into consideration.
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  19. #119

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    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.

  20. #120

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    Parking is always a precarious balance, and certainly the rate it disappears has to be in line with increased public transit. But if there's good public transit and a dense enough amount of people living and working in proximity, people who want to go downtown will figure it out.

    Changing downtown into a suburban model with access for suburbanites (read parking) as the primary concern, was a failure in Edmonton and other North American cities.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 11-05-2015 at 01:35 PM.

  21. #121

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    moahunter ^^ wait until the new arena event night rates are in place. Free on-street parking in the evenings? Nope, not any more once the arena is here and there's an event taking place. Why do you think the city is replacing all the meters with new ones that can be set for different zones/days/event specials? Think impark will keep all their lots cheap when there's higher demand for it? Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.
    Two dollars overnight underground. YMCA, commerce, manulife (if you grab you car after eleven is free, there is no one at the booth and the gate is left up).
    I'm sure this will change with the arena, but parking had never been an issue for me, lots of it and cheap in the evening and
    weekend.
    It's a future issue, not one of now.

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by makenosmallplans View Post
    Are we way over thinking this slogan thing? I get that a slogan needs to describe both what a thing is but also what we want the thing to be, but how can we see "downtown for everyone" as a bad thing? or is the dissension about what downtown currently is? or the steps being taken to execute on that vision? to disagree with the slogan would suggest that in the future there a people the downtown is not for. who exactly might that be?
    The point is that any helpful and illustrative slogan can be picked. Why pick one that as stated is so easily exhibited to be problematic. Ineffective slogans are just that and are not worthy of the initiative and effort that has otherwise been put into this.

    Slogans can capture a mandate, energy, elicit groundswell support, or not. This slogan comes off badly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by makenosmallplans View Post
    Are we way over thinking this slogan thing? I get that a slogan needs to describe both what a thing is but also what we want the thing to be, but how can we see "downtown for everyone" as a bad thing? or is the dissension about what downtown currently is? or the steps being taken to execute on that vision? to disagree with the slogan would suggest that in the future there a people the downtown is not for. who exactly might that be?
    This. People who say downtown isn't for l everyone and then work to ensure it will never be.
    Fulfilling your own argument...

  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ I see the downtown booster club is full on defense mode here.
    I see you continue your curious habit of contributing next to nothing to any discussions here, instead choosing to troll downtown boosters, EdmontonPRT, and so on.
    Thanks for your valuable addition to this fantastic thread. I see that you don't agree with my perspective, so instead of responding in a reasonable fashion, you've decided to name-call me a troll. Well played.
    But but...he nailed it!
    What did he nail?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.
    It is. Most lots are around $5-10 for evening parking until 6am the next day. As well as free on the street, although obviously that will be at a premium during event nights, and that policy may well be reconsidered after the arena is opened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'll risk getting roasted by the downtown apologists, but "for everyone" had better include easy access to affordable parking in the post-arena downtown. The apologists will cite the expensive parking in other cities, however we are a massive suburbia with a wee little downtown, and suburbia won't come here if it's a hassle and overly expensive to park. I think the public would largely accept $5 parking after 6pm, but anything more than that will turn folks away. The apologists may also suggest transit, but the bus sucks and LRT only hits a couple spots, so no. Plus, transit stops at what, 1am? Not exactly good if you plan on staying out late, and a $40 cab ride is not acceptable for "everyone".

    Downtown needs to be accessible to people who can't afford $100 in parking and/or transportation on top of their activities. I hope that's being taken into consideration.

    Terrible, awful idea. Parking = the destroyer of vibrancy in city cores.

    We should be aiming for the least amount of non-resident parking possible.

    The bus does not suck, it is actually really, really good for the density and size of our city (I would actually argue we should reduce the coverage in far-flung suburban sprawl areas and focus on increasing frequency in high-use areas). The LRT serves hundreds of thousands of people within a quick trip. I'll agree with you that we need to extend service later at night.

    Downtown is very accessible to people who can't afford parking. It simply is not accessible to lazy people who dislike public transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'll risk getting roasted by the downtown apologists, but "for everyone" had better include easy access to affordable parking in the post-arena downtown. The apologists will cite the expensive parking in other cities, however we are a massive suburbia with a wee little downtown, and suburbia won't come here if it's a hassle and overly expensive to park. I think the public would largely accept $5 parking after 6pm, but anything more than that will turn folks away. The apologists may also suggest transit, but the bus sucks and LRT only hits a couple spots, so no. Plus, transit stops at what, 1am? Not exactly good if you plan on staying out late, and a $40 cab ride is not acceptable for "everyone".

    Downtown needs to be accessible to people who can't afford $100 in parking and/or transportation on top of their activities. I hope that's being taken into consideration.
    It very much is and has been for about 2 years now. Parking costs, concerns, neighbourhood impacts etc. were brought up very early on at the Arena Community Benefit meetings and subsequently at other implementation meetings. The COE is well aware of this potential impact and is working with stakeholders and other groups to manage it appropriately.

    The reality is though that supply and demand dictate much of this.

    Transit will be adjusted to improve its effectiveness and will be the best option for many people.

    I also share concerns over existing residents/users and so more work will be done...
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  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.
    Two dollars overnight underground. YMCA, commerce, manulife (if you grab you car after eleven is free, there is no one at the booth and the gate is left up).
    I'm sure this will change with the arena, but parking had never been an issue for me, lots of it and cheap in the evening and
    weekend.
    It's a future issue, not one of now.
    My post specifically said post-arena.

    Parking is usually easy and affordable now. But will it be on game night for people that want to dine or shop and have no desire to watch hockey?
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  30. #130

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    hundreds of thousands of people on the LRT daily? Really? The bus doesn't suck? Really? Far flung suburbs? really? This is how the downtown boosters want to sound?

    When people identify problems with downtown, its swept under a rug like its nothing, and those that point out the problems are called trolls and told they add nothing to the conversation. No wrong. You just don't like a perspective that's different than you own, and rather than discussing it, you attempt to sweep it under the rug like its nothing, dismissing anyone with a differing opinion as wrong...

    TYPICAL C2E downtown booster club.

    Downtown for everyone*
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  31. #131
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    Keep in mind that if there's more than a couple people arriving in a vehicle, parking at this time is generally cheaper than transit if you take the cost of a two way fare in to account. So I don't really see a problem right now. But again, that may well change significantly once the arena and surrounding district get busy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    [Downtown will never be for 'everyone' to live , but that is not the point of this.
    I'm trying to be fair Ian but I don't comprehend this statement in the context of a thread and initiative entitled "Downtown for Edmonton"

    Not sure if you were being flippant with that but obviously, and as indicated in the thread the slogan is quite easily challenged and shown to be problematic.
    I would suggest that the slogan, rather than the intent and initiative, is badly conceived.

    It would be unfortunate if a poorly worded and thought out slogan does not capture properly the improvements that are occurring in the downtown and in its vision.
    Downtown to be Inclusive, same things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I like the premise.

    The only critique...downtown is not for everyone. I would tweek the message to say Downtown WELCOMES everyone...I think that is what it is trying to say...

    Yes, too picky...

    As soon as Downtown finally gets positive attention, folk like the guy above have to get "too picky" about something Edmonton has needed for a long time. There's always someone in the group who has to rain on a parade. If its not for you, you can always stay in the quiet, dense-less, suburbs and bury yourself in silence.
    Oh my dear Spartan...I live downtown...

    A little constructive criticism from the "above guy" is not trying to rain on a parade. Far from it...positive attention is one thing...overpromising and then underdelivering is yet another...

    ...and as for positive press...Edmonton has been trying to boost its downtown for most of my life here...I still have that annoying Park in the Heart jingle permanently etched in my brain...and for those that remember that awful jingle...you're welcome for the earworm.

    Quote Originally Posted by makenosmallplans View Post
    Are we way over thinking this slogan thing? I get that a slogan needs to describe both what a thing is but also what we want the thing to be, but how can we see "downtown for everyone" as a bad thing? or is the dissension about what downtown currently is? or the steps being taken to execute on that vision? to disagree with the slogan would suggest that in the future there a people the downtown is not for. who exactly might that be?
    This is why slogans suck. They try to be one size fits all, and sorry to burst bubbles, but downtown does not fit all, and many will not step foot downtown except for when they absolutely have to. It is not a hatred of downtown, it is not the stereotypical angst that many of you wish to hurl on those who wish to not be downtown, it is just their personal preferences based on what they like.

    ...face it...some people...a heck of a lot of people...do not like crowds, do not like being piled like eggs in an inverted carton, and whatever else they find slightly disagreeable to the core. They don't even want to visit. They don't salivate over construction cranes, or drop their undies at the sight of a skyscraper or apartment complex. Your vibrancy translates literally...as in they vibrate with the immediate desire to get the heck out of downtown as fast as they can. The best you can hope for is that some of these people will come for a game, and then get the flying flip out of downtown when it is over.

    Saying it is now "for everyone" is just setting yourself up for failure. That's the point. Downtown comes off desperate, rather than confident. It is "look at me, look at me, look at meeee" rather than just doing its thing.

    The reality is, all downtown needs to do is just exactly what it is doing. Grow. Grow for those who want to be there, for the investors who wish to buy in, for the purchasers who wish to do the same, and for the retailers and activity providers who wish to take part. That's it. No slogans required. While I appreciate the campaign that says Downtown is "open for business" outside the hours it is traditionally open for business (aka not a dead hole after 17:00), if it just keeps doing what it is doing and being confident in what it is doing...it will get converts.

    The fun hypocrisy here is that downtown boosters lament the suburbs, and those that prefer them, yet are aghast when the same people they just vilified are apathetic to their cries of how superior downtown is! Funny thing, but when a vocal group keeps telling the majority that they are stupid for their housing choices, that their lifestyles are somehow inferior, that their neighbourhoods are not "vibrant", that they are boring, that they are heathens, and that they are planet killing boors...well, they tend to react negatively.

    Most people don't care about life downtown as there is a large city outside these borders where - let's face it - the vast majority of people CHOOSE to live, work, play, shop, and sleep. So, when you have 90% of the attention paid to one section of the city, and then get told that this disproportionate amount of attention is actually a good thing...when if it was a good thing the attention would not seem disproportionate...you get folks lashing out. That is the source of most of the angst downtown boosters are hearing. That is exactly the #1 reason why so many have dropped from this forum. I had a few meetings with posters who have stopped being here simply because it is downtown 24X7, and to hell with the rest of the city. There is a whole world out there, yet the downtown booster club will shout down any conversation on suburban desires, let alone any rural conversations.

    If you want an example, look at traffic or road condition conversations. Inevitably, you get the same crowd of boosters showing up, smugly and arrogantly saying how "if you lived in a dense, vibrant community you could walk to work blah blah" and proceed to say everything that is wrong with the lifestyle choice these people made...and come across as pious jerks.

    Simply put, if you want a downtown for everyone, good luck. This diversity many of you aspire for...includes the diversity of people who do not want to live, work, play, or shop downtown. If you 'd rather have a great downtown, designed like great downtowns should be, then shut up and just invest in it. Come here and talk about it, be proud of it and your choices/investments, but don't shout down people who want to talk about something else, somewhere else. Those that see the success may convert. Those that don't, well, you never had them in the first place. Stop wasting your energy proselytizing, and just do it. Let the rest of the world define their vibrancy in their terms. They would feel far more welcomed downtown if they knew they were not being looked down upon for not living here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.
    Two dollars overnight underground. YMCA, commerce, manulife (if you grab you car after eleven is free, there is no one at the booth and the gate is left up).
    I'm sure this will change with the arena, but parking had never been an issue for me, lots of it and cheap in the evening and
    weekend.
    It's a future issue, not one of now.
    My post specifically said post-arena.

    Parking is usually easy and affordable now. But will it be on game night for people that want to dine or shop and have no desire to watch hockey?
    Depends on affordable as a definition.
    Right now is $15 to park in a bare bones lot with a 2 to 10 minute outdoor walk to the arena. You will park there only for three to four hours. Thousands pay it every game night.
    Is $20 to $25 to park in heated underground with overnight privileges expensive in comparison?
    If you don't mind the walk outdoors, you will likely be able to find parking the parking as currently offered at Rexall fir the same price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    hundreds of thousands of people on the LRT daily? Really? The bus doesn't suck? Really? Far flung suburbs? really? This is how the downtown boosters want to sound?

    When people identify problems with downtown, its swept under a rug like its nothing, and those that point out the problems are called trolls.

    TYPICAL C2E downtown booster club.

    Downtown for everyone*

    1) Yes, look at a population map. Hundreds of thousands within a short trip.

    2) Yes, our bus service is incredible for the size and density of the city. Nearly all our neighbourhoods have coverage (whereas most cities with our development pattern have hardly any coverage).

    3) Yes, far flung suburbs. Why spend $5 million expanding bus to say, Windermere, where you might increase ridership from 200-400 people, when you could increase frequency in core areas where you increase ridership by double that?

    People need a reality check about our public transit. It is very, very good compared to cities with similar urban form all over North America. My guess is you suburban transit naysayers haven't stepped foot on a bus for 10 years.

  36. #136

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    Ok, pedantic people you win. Downtown will never ever, ever be for everyone in the most technical sense. Here's your 'smart' badge.Now, do you feel better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spartan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I like the premise.

    The only critique...downtown is not for everyone. I would tweek the message to say Downtown WELCOMES everyone...I think that is what it is trying to say...

    Yes, too picky...

    As soon as Downtown finally gets positive attention, folk like the guy above have to get "too picky" about something Edmonton has needed for a long time. There's always someone in the group who has to rain on a parade. If its not for you, you can always stay in the quiet, dense-less, suburbs and bury yourself in silence.
    Oh my dear Spartan...I live downtown...

    A little constructive criticism from the "above guy" is not trying to rain on a parade. Far from it...positive attention is one thing...overpromising and then underdelivering is yet another...

    Quote Originally Posted by makenosmallplans View Post
    Are we way over thinking this slogan thing? I get that a slogan needs to describe both what a thing is but also what we want the thing to be, but how can we see "downtown for everyone" as a bad thing? or is the dissension about what downtown currently is? or the steps being taken to execute on that vision? to disagree with the slogan would suggest that in the future there a people the downtown is not for. who exactly might that be?
    This is why slogans suck. They try to be one size fits all, and sorry to burst bubbles, but downtown does not fit all, and many will not step foot downtown except for when they absolutely have to. It is not a hatred of downtown, it is not the stereotypical angst that many of you wish to hurl on those who wish to not be downtown, it is just their personal preferences based on what they like.

    ...face it...some people...a heck of a lot of people...do not like crowds, do not like being piled like eggs in an inverted carton, and whatever else they find slightly disagreeable to the core. They don't even want to visit. They don't salivate over construction cranes, or drop their undies at the sight of a skyscraper or apartment complex. Your vibrancy translates literally...as in they vibrate with the immediate desire to get the heck out of downtown as fast as they can. The best you can hope for is that some of these people will come for a game, and then get the flying flip out of downtown when it is over.

    Saying it is now "for everyone" is just setting yourself up for failure. That's the point. Downtown comes off desperate, rather than confident.

    The reality is, all downtown needs to do is just exactly what it is doing. Grow. Grow for those who want to be there, for the investors who wish to buy in, for the purchasers who wish to do the same, and for the retailers and activity providers who wish to take part. That's it. No slogans required. While I appreciate the campaign that says Downtown is "open for business" outside the hours it is traditionally open for business (aka not a dead hole after 17:00), if it just keeps doing what it is doing and being confident in what it is doing...it will get converts.

    The fun hypocrisy here is that downtown boosters lament the suburbs, and those that prefer them, yet are aghast when the same people they just vilified are apathetic to their cries of how superior downtown is! Funny thing, but when a vocal group keeps telling the majority that they are stupid for their housing choices, that their lifestyles are somehow inferior, that their neighbourhoods are not "vibrant", that they are boring, that they are heathens, and that they are planet killing boors...well, they tend to react negatively.

    Most people don't care about life downtown as there is a large city outside these borders where - let's face it - the vast majority of people CHOOSE to live, work, play, shop, and sleep. So, when you have 90% of the attention paid to one section of the city, and then get told that this disproportionate amount of attention is actually a good thing...when if it was a good thing the attention would not seem disproportionate...you get folks lashing out. That is the source of most of the angst downtown boosters are hearing. That is exactly the #1 reason why so many have dropped from this forum. I had a few meetings with posters who have stopped being here simply because it is downtown 24X7, and to hell with the rest of the city. There is a whole world out there, yet the downtown booster club will shout down any conversation on suburban desires, let alone any rural conversations.

    If you want an example, look at traffic or road condition conversations. Inevitably, you get the same crowd of boosters showing up, smugly and arrogantly saying how "if you lived in a dense, vibrant community you could walk to work blah blah" and proceed to say everything that is wrong with the lifestyle choice these people made...and come across as pious jerks.

    Simply put, if you want a downtown for everyone, good luck. This diversity many of you aspire for...includes the diversity of people who do not want to live, work, play, or shop downtown. If you 'd rather have a great downtown, designed like great downtowns should be, then shut up and just invest in it. Those that see the success may convert. Those that don't, well, you never had them in the first place. Stop wasting your energy proselytizing, and just do it. Let the rest of the world define their vibrancy in their terms. They would feel far more welcomed downtown if they knew they were not being looked down upon for not living here...
    Some good points, others I disagree with, will respond more later.
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    I think the point is missed, it's not that Downtown has to have everyone, but that it can be a place for everyone if they choose it.
    That means options and a broader scope than a narrow band of pioneers who blindly ignore all the negatives and just "boost". There are real people, really working at making it more inclusive... For anyone that might be interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    (...) it's not that Downtown has to have everyone, but that it can be a place for everyone if they choose it.
    (...)
    I agree...but then let them choose it based on the merits that they see...let them make the value judgment...

    ...don't tell them that if they don't choose it, they're blind etc.
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  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    I think the point is missed, it's not that Downtown has to have everyone, but that it can be a place for everyone if they choose it.
    That means options and a broader scope than a narrow band of pioneers who blindly ignore all the negatives and just "boost". There are real people, really working at making it more inclusive... For anyone that might be interested.
    Anyone who doesn't get this, is choosing to not get this, because they have some grudge about downtown for some reason. It's like rural Canadians who take shots at Canadian cities because they "get all the money" (despite it actually being the opposite case.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Ok, pedantic people you win. Downtown will never ever, ever be for everyone in the most technical sense. Here's your 'smart' badge.Now, do you feel better?
    Sure...if you want to win the puerile badge...then I will take your smart badge...

    Feel better...thank you for demonstrating exactly the attitude that is so off putting to so many here...

    It is not a grudge...but then thanks again for demonstrating the point...
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    I don't think anyone seriously looks down on suburbanites. The choice to live in suburbia is logical for many people who value space and privacy. There will always be a place for single family detached neighbourhoods.

    However, I do think that those who choose sprawl should pay the full cost of their choice. Objectively speaking, sprawl economically and environmentally damages our city. Sprawl neighbourhoods cost us more to service, cost us more to establish, and cause environmental externalities that hurt the rest of us.

    People who choose to live in sprawl neighbourhoods should pay increased property taxes by several times over core dwellers to account for the real cost of their lifestyle. Currently we are subsidizing them, which does not make any sense at all.

    Making "Downtown for Everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.

  43. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.
    Two dollars overnight underground. YMCA, commerce, manulife (if you grab you car after eleven is free, there is no one at the booth and the gate is left up).
    I'm sure this will change with the arena, but parking had never been an issue for me, lots of it and cheap in the evening and
    weekend.
    It's a future issue, not one of now.
    My post specifically said post-arena.

    Parking is usually easy and affordable now. But will it be on game night for people that want to dine or shop and have no desire to watch hockey?
    Depends on affordable as a definition.
    Right now is $15 to park in a bare bones lot with a 2 to 10 minute outdoor walk to the arena. You will park there only for three to four hours. Thousands pay it every game night.
    Is $20 to $25 to park in heated underground with overnight privileges expensive in comparison?
    If you don't mind the walk outdoors, you will likely be able to find parking the parking as currently offered at Rexall fir the same price.
    Leave hockey out. $25 is a lot for a family wanting to catch whatever is happening at Churchill or a couple wanting to see some inexpensive improv on Friday night. $300 per seat hockey ticket holders shouldn't dictate the prices everyone else has to pay for non-hockey related activities. It's not like when there's a stupid game on the rest of downtown will close up shop and wait for the game to finish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I thought parking was super cheap almost everywhere after 6pm.
    Two dollars overnight underground. YMCA, commerce, manulife (if you grab you car after eleven is free, there is no one at the booth and the gate is left up).
    I'm sure this will change with the arena, but parking had never been an issue for me, lots of it and cheap in the evening and
    weekend.
    It's a future issue, not one of now.
    My post specifically said post-arena.

    Parking is usually easy and affordable now. But will it be on game night for people that want to dine or shop and have no desire to watch hockey?
    Depends on affordable as a definition.
    Right now is $15 to park in a bare bones lot with a 2 to 10 minute outdoor walk to the arena. You will park there only for three to four hours. Thousands pay it every game night.
    Is $20 to $25 to park in heated underground with overnight privileges expensive in comparison?
    If you don't mind the walk outdoors, you will likely be able to find parking the parking as currently offered at Rexall fir the same price.
    Leave hockey out. $25 is a lot for a family wanting to catch whatever is happening at Churchill or a couple wanting to see some inexpensive improv on Friday night. $300 per seat hockey ticket holders shouldn't dictate the prices everyone else has to pay for non-hockey related activities. It's not like when there's a stupid game on the rest of downtown will close up shop and wait for the game to finish.
    Why would they not have variable rates outside of game nights?

  45. #145

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    "Downtown for Everyone"

    It means just that....that Downtown has something for everyone. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to live, work and play downtown in that order - just doing one of those will mean you've taken apart in "Downtown".

    The Arena, RAM, Arts District will draw people from the burbs; this is downtown to them.
    The gastro-pubs and upscale dining will draw people from all over; this is downtown to them.
    Summer and weekend events like farmers market, street performers, taste of edmonton will draw people from out of town even; this is downtown Edmonton to them.
    Some people simply come to the core because of employment opportunities and leave at the end of their shifts; it doesn't matter - this is their downtown to them.
    Some people live downtown but don't partake in much of anything within it; but this is downtown to them - their home.

    You don't have to live downtown to enjoy, or make use of downtown Edmonton.


    Also on the the parking front, it will take some time before an equilibrium is reached. Some businesses (eateries) heavily rely on the free parking for their clientele. I can be confident saying that majority of people dining downtown are not people living downtown. You have large amounts of people that make their way downtown post work.
    Some restaurants like Ruths Chris will pay for that parking (their margins can more than allow for that) but other businesses may not be able to offer that incentive.
    I am sure initiatives are being worked on that will strike a fair balance after some trial and errors.
    Post arena, a possible solution for businesses is that meters should be similar to weekend rates and limited to 2 hours to discourage event goers from parking.

    However, while I am confident businesses may have their concerns addressed, I can't say that for homeowners....on a more personal level: as I make the transition to live downtown myself, it will be hard to invite friends and family over. Many will prefer to meet elsewhere rather than converge at my future place due to lack of parking and the costs associated. Transit is probably not an option since my age group tends to live on the fringes of Edmonton. ETS will quite literally take 1.5-2 hours to get downtown (and a $7 round trip association to sit on a meandering bus).

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Ok, pedantic people you win. Downtown will never ever, ever be for everyone in the most technical sense. Here's your 'smart' badge.Now, do you feel better?
    Sure...if you want to win the puerile badge...then I will take your smart badge...

    Feel better...thank you for demonstrating exactly the attitude that is so off putting to so many here...

    It is not a grudge...but then thanks again for demonstrating the point...
    I don't live downtown, I don't work downtown, I rarely visit downtown. I don't represent DECL or any of the other groups involved in this initiative.

  47. #147

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    ^^^^Thanks Richard. You've nailed it (if anybody has) throughout the thread.

    The questioning the slogan as exhibited in the thread is obvious and valid. Why have a slogan so obviously misleading. Or slogan it all as you state.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Transit is probably not an option since my age group tends to live on the fringes of Edmonton. ETS will quite literally take 1.5-2 hours to get downtown (and a $7 round trip association to sit on a meandering bus).

    This is the crux of the issue and the core of this entire argument.

    Sorry to be harsh, but you chose to live in a far flung suburb, and thus you chose to have difficulty reaching downtown.

    I fail to see why the rest of Edmonton should suffer because some suburbanites want the pleasure of cruising downtown once a month for cheap.

    The majority of Edmontonians live within a 30 minute transit trip to the core. We should be focusing our transit to offer rapid, 24 hour service to these people.

    Suburbanites chose a lifestyle where they are detached from the action. That is a perfectly fine choice if you value the space and privacy, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you choose the suburban life, you shouldn't expect transit service OR cheap parking for the off day you choose to drive into the city.

  49. #149

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    B.ike , a little off-topic here, but just wanted to continue with your thought process. One thing I've noticed from living in a variety of places and cities around the world, is that people who live in big cities, very rarely go to each other's houses. It's just too inconvenient so they more often than not meet halfway for coffee, dinner, whatever. People who live in rural areas almost always do the opposite. They go to each other's houses for socializing.

  50. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Ok, pedantic people you win. Downtown will never ever, ever be for everyone in the most technical sense. Here's your 'smart' badge.Now, do you feel better?
    Sure...if you want to win the puerile badge...then I will take your smart badge...

    Feel better...thank you for demonstrating exactly the attitude that is so off putting to so many here...

    It is not a grudge...but then thanks again for demonstrating the point...
    I don't live downtown, I don't work downtown, I rarely visit downtown. I don't represent DECL or any of the other groups involved in this initiative.
    The point is there are statements that either increase, or decrease dialog. Whatever the topic at hand is. Denigrating opposing views isn't a method to increase dialog, inclusion, gain support, etc. Its off-putting as mentioned. Its been a lot of what unfortunately has gone on in this board over the length of time at least that I have viewed it.

    Now my post is not meant to target, to flame, or anything like that. Its to give feedback because you seemingly asked for clarification.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  51. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I don't think anyone seriously looks down on suburbanites. The choice to live in suburbia is logical for many people who value space and privacy. There will always be a place for single family detached neighbourhoods.

    However, I do think that those who choose sprawl should pay the full cost of their choice. Objectively speaking, sprawl economically and environmentally damages our city. Sprawl neighbourhoods cost us more to service, cost us more to establish, and cause environmental externalities that hurt the rest of us.

    People who choose to live in sprawl neighbourhoods should pay increased property taxes by several times over core dwellers to account for the real cost of their lifestyle. Currently we are subsidizing them, which does not make any sense at all.

    Making "Downtown for Everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    With due respect your join date may not be consistent with knowing intimately what some of the past patterns of this board have been and which Richard and Admins here would be intimately aware of and citing. Although you could be a well versed long time lurker.

    That said your own posting has imo been excellent and I welcome it and posting which models more of a civility and interest in discussion that you have shown. The board is trying to promote a wider range of viewpoints and making this place a more discussion conducive place that welcomes (I'll resist saying "anybodies" , as per thread title ) viewpoint.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Top_Dawg just wishes that all the cornholios who flooded in over the last decade-and-a-half would go back to whatever $hithole dey came from and allow us who were born here to once again live in peace.


  53. #153

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    ^

    Replacement, fine.

    The slogan is as much a goal as a statement. By saying they're trying to build a downtown for everyone, they're trying to build an inclusive vibrant downtown.That means most people will get something out of downtown. It certainly does not mean everyone will get everything out of downtown.

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    It's disappointing that these kind of threads always end up the same. Can we not have a civil discussion about a topic without turning it into an us versus them then a subsequent back and forth on who's wrong and who's taking words too literally.

    Dissapointment.
    be offended! figure out why later...

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    ...then don't say it at all.

    ...don't put out a slogan as such...

    Marketing 101...if you have to say you're world class, you are not...

    It is the same for saying you are "for everyone".

    If the point is saying that downtown is not the same downtown you may remember, then say that....how about:

    Downtown Edmonton - more choice than ever!
    Downtown Edmonton - see for yourself!
    Experience Edmonton's Urban Energy - Downtown!

    Live, work, play! Downtown Edmonton.

    Get your wins...attract those who will be attracted to the lifestyle...and then let those fence sitters come and judge from the positive energy you have...

    Or...call them environmentally obtuse, socially inept, and economic leeches for their choices...say that they are not providing a high standard of living unless they chose your lifestyle..

    ...you can calm more bears with honey than vinegar...
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  56. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    It's disappointing that these kind of threads always end up the same. Can we not have a civil discussion about a topic without turning it into an us versus them then a subsequent back and forth on who's wrong and who's taking words too literally.

    Dissapointment.
    Ok, fair comment, I'll back down.

  57. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...then don't say it at all.

    ...don't put out a slogan as such...

    Marketing 101...if you have to say you're world class, you are not...

    It is the same for saying you are "for everyone".

    If the point is saying that downtown is not the same downtown you may remember, then say that....how about:

    Downtown Edmonton - more choice than ever!
    Downtown Edmonton - see for yourself!
    Experience Edmonton's Urban Energy - Downtown!

    Live, work, play! Downtown Edmonton.

    .
    I like the first and last slogan. Anyways, I thought Edmonton was supposed to be a post-slogan city so we could avoid these arguments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I don't think anyone seriously looks down on suburbanites. The choice to live in suburbia is logical for many people who value space and privacy. There will always be a place for single family detached neighbourhoods.

    However, I do think that those who choose sprawl should pay the full cost of their choice. Objectively speaking, sprawl economically and environmentally damages our city. Sprawl neighbourhoods cost us more to service, cost us more to establish, and cause environmental externalities that hurt the rest of us.

    People who choose to live in sprawl neighbourhoods should pay increased property taxes by several times over core dwellers to account for the real cost of their lifestyle. Currently we are subsidizing them, which does not make any sense at all.

    Making "Downtown for Everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    With due respect your join date may not be consistent with knowing intimately what some of the past patterns of this board have been and which Richard and Admins here would be intimately aware of and citing. Although you could be a well versed long time lurker.

    That said your own posting has imo been excellent and I welcome it and posting which models more of a civility and interest in discussion that you have shown. The board is trying to promote a wider range of viewpoints and making this place a more discussion conducive place that welcomes (I'll resist saying "anybodies" , as per thread title ) viewpoint.
    I too joined the board only a year ago so don't have that history either - perhaps there be my confusion. it seems to me that the dynamic is important - most Edmontonians do not live downtown or work downtown. in fact, a large majority do not. perhaps that is why there is some shrillness to the voices supporting downtown investment - its seen, rightly or wrongly, as the only way to be heard as a small minority. all that said, i really agree with Jaredo's point around the logistics and costs but that does not imply that I or most on this board don't respect suburban lifestyles. i grew up in one and live in one now - by my choice.

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    Let me make myself clear...I want Edmonton's downtown to succeed...to be what many here want it to be...I am just taking the feedback from far too many ex posters, many lurkers who refuse to post because of this, and my own professional and personal experiences in trying to promote events and activities in this city and trying to offer suggestions to make the campaigns better...not so easily poked at.

    If this is off putting, then fine. I will stop. However, I will still take all the feedback I get on a daily basis from people here and all over who are visiting and wanting to live here...and do my level headed best to improve on the work I am doing.

    However, I feel I see the city as a whole...I see a city where the sum of it's parts makes for vibrancy and diversity far outside just the core...and I make no apologies for that.
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  60. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    ^

    Replacement, fine.

    The slogan is as much a goal as a statement. By saying they're trying to build a downtown for everyone, they're trying to build an inclusive vibrant downtown.That means most people will get something out of downtown. It certainly does not mean everyone will get everything out of downtown.
    Thanks for responding. ftr myself I've obviously been a critic and don't live downtown but I read the board voraciously looking for reasons to like and partake of the downtown which I do much more partly as a result of this board but also that a certain side of me likes urban options and hearing about them.

    Ample progress has been made downtown and also that invites more people and preferences. For instance I now embrace the RAM being downtown and the Arena being downtown and admit to being incorrect about these initiatives and that they are likely good ideas that will bring more people, and a wider range of interest to the downtown. I love as well that all of the Citadel, Winspear, AGA offer a sample and appreciate free days or locost days to partake of the facilities and grow connection to potential patrons in that way. This is individual facilities building key connections with Edmontonians and are bridges that serve dividends in inviting people back to the downtown.

    The initiative succeeded for me. But I an still see both POV's
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I like the first and last slogan. Anyways, I thought Edmonton was supposed to be a post-slogan city so we could avoid these arguments?

    ...call them taglines v slogans...
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    I don't live Downtown either for the record.
    I do however enjoy what it has to offer and that it continually has more to offer and I appreciate the work being put in to look outside of itself so those who do choose to visit have amenities and options... To the point they might consider making that visit permanent.
    I believe that is what this all about, get hung up on the wording of a slogan? Or look a bit deeper!

  63. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I don't think anyone seriously looks down on suburbanites. The choice to live in suburbia is logical for many people who value space and privacy. There will always be a place for single family detached neighbourhoods.
    Really? IanO, SDM and Jaybee and many others on the forum seem to have the hollier than thou if thou lives in a suburb attitude here.... Just look at the good troll job IanO does on the currents of windermere, or signature threads...

    However, I do think that those who choose sprawl should pay the full cost of their choice. Objectively speaking, sprawl economically and environmentally damages our city. Sprawl neighbourhoods cost us more to service, cost us more to establish, and cause environmental externalities that hurt the rest of us.
    You must think everyone works downtown, and that suburbs are full of only single family homes.

    People who choose to live in sprawl neighbourhoods should pay increased property taxes by several times over core dwellers to account for the real cost of their lifestyle. Currently we are subsidizing them, which does not make any sense at all.
    So are you suggesting that I move downtown or more central... which would put me further away from my place of employment? Maybe you should look at where/what people do for a living in this city. You'll soon realize that holy sheep sheit, most people don't actually work downtown and living centrally would be a hardship on them. But DAMN THEM. LETS TAX THEM TO THE MAX BECAUSE THEY AINT US

    Making "Downtown for Everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    Density is great, but it's not for everyone. Living downtown is great. Lived near downtown for 20 years myself. Kids happened. Work locations aren't downtown for nearly 70% of the population of this city. Figure that one in your hate on sprawl or suburbs

    Edmonton doesn't sprawl. We just have many different work nodes, a de-centralized work force. Most of Edmonton's newer suburban communities are built with a higher density than even stuff in mature neighbourhoods like Glenora or westmount. Maybe figure that into your equation before looking down the nose at people that live in the suburbs.

    NOT EVERYONE WORKS DOWNTOWN. IN FACT, MOST DON'T.
    Last edited by Medwards; 11-05-2015 at 02:40 PM.
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  64. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by makenosmallplans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I don't think anyone seriously looks down on suburbanites. The choice to live in suburbia is logical for many people who value space and privacy. There will always be a place for single family detached neighbourhoods.

    However, I do think that those who choose sprawl should pay the full cost of their choice. Objectively speaking, sprawl economically and environmentally damages our city. Sprawl neighbourhoods cost us more to service, cost us more to establish, and cause environmental externalities that hurt the rest of us.

    People who choose to live in sprawl neighbourhoods should pay increased property taxes by several times over core dwellers to account for the real cost of their lifestyle. Currently we are subsidizing them, which does not make any sense at all.

    Making "Downtown for Everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    With due respect your join date may not be consistent with knowing intimately what some of the past patterns of this board have been and which Richard and Admins here would be intimately aware of and citing. Although you could be a well versed long time lurker.

    That said your own posting has imo been excellent and I welcome it and posting which models more of a civility and interest in discussion that you have shown. The board is trying to promote a wider range of viewpoints and making this place a more discussion conducive place that welcomes (I'll resist saying "anybodies" , as per thread title ) viewpoint.
    I too joined the board only a year ago so don't have that history either - perhaps there be my confusion. it seems to me that the dynamic is important - most Edmontonians do not live downtown or work downtown. in fact, a large majority do not. perhaps that is why there is some shrillness to the voices supporting downtown investment - its seen, rightly or wrongly, as the only way to be heard as a small minority. all that said, i really agree with Jaredo's point around the logistics and costs but that does not imply that I or most on this board don't respect suburban lifestyles. i grew up in one and live in one now - by my choice.
    Again the board, and my own wish to reconnect with the downtown and furthering that (from the suburbs) reflects in one persons experience that there has been progress in downtown inclusion and in its broader appeal. for me that there is more art, and less establishments like Oil city roadhouse, allows the Downtown to be more appealing to for instance family values. Although that can be seen as not including of people that would want Oil city on our main street.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  65. #165

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    Edmonton for Everyone would be a much better slogan.
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  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    (...)
    I believe that is what this all about, get hung up on the wording of a slogan? Or look a bit deeper!
    People spend thousands or millions of dollars on campaigns and slogans...

    Why?

    Because that is your first impression in many cases. So yes...getting hung up on the wording is something marketing and communication departments spend hours and dollars on...

    Heck, even for the airshow, we had to toss around hundreds of options, and beat the ever loving tar out of all of them. As well, the imagery is very crucial. ...and this is just for a 2 day airshow...but the preconceived notions that come with that word vs what is possible in year one is proving to be the #1 source of communication and stakeholder management...

    ...now apply that to an entire core...
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  67. #167

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    ^ Airshow for Everyone*
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  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    (...)
    I believe that is what this all about, get hung up on the wording of a slogan? Or look a bit deeper!
    People spend thousands or millions of dollars on campaigns and slogans...

    Why?

    Because that is your first impression in many cases. So yes...getting hung up on the wording is something marketing and communication departments spend hours and dollars on...

    Heck, even for the airshow, we had to toss around hundreds of options, and beat the ever loving tar out of all of them. As well, the imagery is very crucial. ...and this is just for a 2 day airshow...but the preconceived notions that come with that word vs what is possible in year one is proving to be the #1 source of communication and stakeholder management...

    ...now apply that to an entire core...
    This isn't an official brand or campaign is it?
    And if you just look at this thread, it is doing something alot of other attempts haven't been able to do... It's got pointed discussion happening, it's fueling the discussion. Marketing 100, forget 101.
    Maybe they were right leaving it open to interpretation...

  69. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Transit is probably not an option since my age group tends to live on the fringes of Edmonton. ETS will quite literally take 1.5-2 hours to get downtown (and a $7 round trip association to sit on a meandering bus).
    This is the crux of the issue and the core of this entire argument.

    I fail to see why the rest of Edmonton should suffer because some suburbanites want the pleasure of cruising downtown once a month for cheap.

    Suburbanites chose a lifestyle where they are detached from the action. That is a perfectly fine choice if you value the space and privacy, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you choose the suburban life, you shouldn't expect transit service OR cheap parking for the off day you choose to drive into the city.
    No mistake, I am with you 100%.

    But as you've reasoned, the suburbs are attractive to people because of their prices - plain and simple. And hence, my age group (mid 20s), mostly everyone lives on the fringe of Edmonton.

    I've taken steps to so that in a couple of years I will live and work downtown. And that is where my dilemma starts since my circle of friends will continue to dot the Henday while I have moved to the core. As snake-eyes alluded to, we tend to congregate at a particular persons house for variety of reasons: movies, BBQs, boardgames, drinking, etc...
    But come 2 years from now, the parking issue will indirectly affect me because I will continually have to drive to a brand new suburb for various meetups as I can say with certainty that none of them will want to come downtown given the parking situation - even though I'll be in the most logical location. Ditto with family.

    I was merely saying not only businesses have to adapt to the new parking situation but dwellers downtown as well - to an extent.


    And to bring everything full circle, we had our first wave of downtown "pioneers" but in a year or so when I move downtown, I feel I will also be a pioneer in many ways. When I explain to co-workers, friends and acquaintances that I plan to move downtown, more often than not I get an almost quizzical look and almost always followed by "at least the arena is going in". The perception is still a long ways off....

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post

    This isn't an official brand or campaign is it?
    And if you just look at this thread, it is doing something alot of other attempts haven't been able to do... It's got pointed discussion happening, it's fueling the discussion. Marketing 100, forget 101.
    Maybe they were right leaving it open to interpretation...
    Maybe I am getting this wrong, but this IS an official campaign...

    Money, time, effort, pretty pictures, big E's, co-ordinated messaging...etc...


    Look at post 11. ...even has an official media person

    For more information:

    Visit edmonton.ca/GoDowntown

    Media contact:

    Alice Leung
    Reputation Unit Manager
    Corporate Communications
    780-423-2471

    www.edmonton.ca
    ...if this is not a marketing effort and a campaign...please redefine it for me.

    ...also, there has been a lot of discussion around this for years - especially since the "blame WEM for killing downtown" discussion started in the Decore years...this fueled discussion is not new by any stretch of the imagination. This discussion has been on C2E for all 12 years this forum, and it's predecessor PROMOTE-EDMONTON, and the discussions on SSP...

    New and full of opinions...this discussion is definitely not!
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  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Really? IanO, SDM and Jaybee and many others on the forum seem to have the hollier than thou if thou lives in a suburb attitude here.... Just look at the good troll job IanO does on the currents of windermere, or signature threads...
    I should say that I don't have an anti-suburb attitude, at least not in the same way. I recognize that many people want to live in single family detached neighbourhoods for obvious reasons of space and privacy, and that we always will need those areas.

    So are you suggesting that I move downtown or more central... which would put me further away from my place of employment? Maybe you should look at where/what people do for a living in this city. You'll soon realize that holy sheep sheit, most people don't actually work downtown and living centrally would be a hardship on them. But DAMN THEM. LETS TAX THEM TO THE MAX BECAUSE THEY AINT US
    No, I am suggesting that suburban dwellers should move to suburban environments expecting that they will have less localized services. If you move to a new neighbourhood, you should expect to shuttle your children to school, have less public transit service, enjoy fewer close recreation facilities, slower snow plowing etc.

    Don't get me wrong, this is not out of spite. This is a purely economic, pragmatic argument. These things cost a LOT of money to build, and they cost more to operate in sprawl environments. Services are cheaper in high density environments due to economies of scale.

    It comes down to dollars and cents. If you choose a suburb, expect suburban services. If not, expect to pay dramatically higher taxes. As it stands today, core areas actually subsidize greenfield developments.

    Density is great, but it's not for everyone. Living downtown is great. Lived near downtown for 20 years myself. Kids happened. Work locations aren't downtown for nearly 70% of the population of this city. Figure that one in your hate on sprawl or suburbs

    Edmonton doesn't sprawl. We just have many different work nodes, a de-centralized work force. Most of Edmonton's newer suburban communities are built with a higher density than even stuff in mature neighbourhoods like Glenora or westmount. Maybe figure that into your equation before looking down the nose at people that live in the suburbs.
    Edmonton does sprawl. New greenfield developments increasing density are great, but they still exert a much higher economic and environmental cost on society than simply increasing density in core areas.

    Again, I definitely agree that density is not for everyone. I simply expect people to either pay for the services they demand, or go without them. If you live far out in the country, do you refuse to get a car and instead demand a bus to come pick you up? No, because it is not economical. Neither is having a plethora of services for greenfield development.

  72. #172

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    100% of Edmonton was greenfield at one point, we are all in this together, and no, because your house was built 20 years ago doesn't make it any different if it was built 50 years ago, or your infill, or live in a suburb, or in a shoebox downtown or etc. We all pay taxes, and we are all in this together.

    Edmonton for everyone! Enough is enough with these silos and I'm holier than thou because I live in this part of city and you dont bu llsh it that preeminent Connect2Downtown.

    And with our growth rates, you can built infill till the pervial cows come home, but it still wont be enough to support our growth, greenfield needs to occur. Let's be smart about it though, and stop making it out to be the bandit you want it to be to support your decision to live in a shoebox.
    Last edited by Medwards; 11-05-2015 at 04:11 PM.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaerdo View Post
    making "downtown for everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    this!
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  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Why would they not have variable rates outside of game nights?
    Exactly and THEY will.
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  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    ^

    Replacement, fine.

    The slogan is as much a goal as a statement. By saying they're trying to build a downtown for everyone, they're trying to build an inclusive vibrant downtown.That means most people will get something out of downtown. It certainly does not mean everyone will get everything out of downtown.
    Thank you
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  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...then don't say it at all.

    ...don't put out a slogan as such...

    Marketing 101...if you have to say you're world class, you are not...

    It is the same for saying you are "for everyone".

    If the point is saying that downtown is not the same downtown you may remember, then say that....how about:

    Downtown Edmonton - more choice than ever!
    Downtown Edmonton - see for yourself!
    Experience Edmonton's Urban Energy - Downtown!

    Live, work, play! Downtown Edmonton.

    Get your wins...attract those who will be attracted to the lifestyle...and then let those fence sitters come and judge from the positive energy you have...

    Or...call them environmentally obtuse, socially inept, and economic leeches for their choices...say that they are not providing a high standard of living unless they chose your lifestyle..

    ...you can calm more bears with honey than vinegar...
    This is NOT a brand, it is an initiative.
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  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Edmonton for Everyone would be a much better slogan.
    This was a DOWNTOWN initiative to address disruption, congestion while educating and building excitement FOR DOWNTOWN.

    It is to be temporary in nature to get us over the hump of all of this construction.

    I am not sure why this is turning into what it is.
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  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jaerdo View Post
    making "downtown for everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    this!
    so...

    living outside a core or a dense form is not socially a good thing...doesn't promote a high standard of living? Define high standard of living please.

    Suburban living cannot have a nod towards environmental awareness and stability? Dense living is devoid of environmental issues? Define please.

    Suburban living and dwellers have no economic mindset? Suburban living means you are economically obtuse?

    These are the things you have to be careful of. Of course suburban living has its issues, but to say that dense living does not have major concerns...this is what turns people off. In a passive aggressive way, you just called suburbanites bad. They can make an argument that their standard of living is high...when viewed through their value set(s).

    Maybe say this...

    "Downtown living offers a different value to you. You can live, work, and play all within walking distance of you home. For those who wish to have everything at your footsteps, downtown is for you!"

    Instead of putting others down (regardless of how "valid" your argument is), just extol the virtues and let the buying public make their educated decision.

    Tagline...Live, Work, Play, yes! Downtown Edmonton. Your world, at your feet.


    ...but seriously, I completely understand why so many have given up here...if you are so concerned for this being turned into something it is not...and you are worried what a couple of posters here are thinking...reflect on this..

    ...there are far more thinking exactly what I am telling you...take the feedback for what it is worth...ignore it at your will.

    I give up. You win. Downtown is for everyone. Everyone else, you suck.
    President and CEO - Airshow.

  79. #179
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    That is not what this was or is about, holy christ.

    Please refer to post 177 everyone, I am astounded by much of what I am seeing on this thread.
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    100% of Edmonton was greenfield at one point, we are all in this together, and no, because your house was built 20 years ago doesn't make it any different if it was built 50 years ago, or your infill, or live in a suburb, or in a shoebox downtown or etc. We all pay taxes, and we are all in this together.

    Edmonton for everyone! Enough is enough with these silos and I'm holier than thou because I live in this part of city and you dont bu llsh it that preeminent Connect2Downtown.

    And with our growth rates, you can built infill till the pervial cows come home, but it still wont be enough to support our growth, greenfield needs to occur. Let's be smart about it though, and stop making it out to be the bandit you want it to be to support your decision to live in a shoebox.

    I wish you wouldn't take this personally, because it is not personal. I fully understand the desire for greenfield development, and the difficulty in avoiding it with our current demographics.

    What I am making is an objective statement about development patterns. I think (and hope) you will agree that greenfield development is both more costly and more environmentally damaging than core development.

    The "we are all in this together" mentality is nice, but it does not change cold economic reality. If we want to have a sustainable community, one that will be able to offer our children and their children a high standard of living, we need to make tough choices.

    One of those choices, perhaps one of the most important ones on a national level, is to stop subsidizing greenfield development. If people pay for the service and infrastructure cost, and environmental damage they cause by buying into a greenfield development, all is fine. If they do not, things will go increasingly awry into the future.

    Also, as to your last comment about "let the buying public" make choices, that is exactly what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that we stop giving perverse incentives to unsound economic and environmental development patterns, and then let people make the choice.

    In mean meantime, I think programs and policies that support the development of downtown to make it more attractive are a very good idea. We need both a "carrot" (nice downtown for "everyone") and a "stick" (greenfield buyers pay the real cost of their homes, not a subsidized price).
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 11-05-2015 at 04:38 PM.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Edmonton for Everyone would be a much better slogan.
    Except it's an ad for downtown, highlighting positive changes downtown. There may room for a debate about why the City has an ad for downtown but not for Clairview, but that's what it is.

    And it really is true. Downtown is far more open an public than any other neighbourhood. That's not a knock against any other neighbourhood, it's just that every part of the city is it's own mix of public, private and semi-private spaces. downtown is the only one where no gathering or ramble less than a parade or demonstration is at all remarkable, where there are no streets where outsiders are discernible from insiders, even to an insider, and where private spaces have round-the-clock open doors for public access from one private space to another.

  82. #182

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    ^^
    Also to add that, as cities grow, they scale everything. They scale access to human capital, efficiency, creativity. It's why big companies choose to headquarter in cities. On the other hand, they also scale bad things. Traffic congestion, pollution, environmental degradation. We want to maximize the good and minimize the bad.

    To put it another way, one person takes a dump in the river, not a big deal. A million people do the same, and it is.

  83. #183
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    ^^ Really? None? My Garneau experience had all this and more. I didn't feel out of place (like I do downtown) because I'm (a) older, and (b) not a hipster. And all of my conveniences were local. And as a woman I didn't have to worry (like I have to downtown) with fending off off-color comments (can't imagine what the younger women face) and having to dodge aggressive panhandlers.

    Also more of the stuff I like to buy was within walking distance.

    Eve

  84. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jaerdo View Post
    making "downtown for everyone" does not mean that we are forcing everyone to live there. It means we are supporting a socially, environmentally, and economically conscious built form that ensures future generations will be able to enjoy a high standard of living. Sprawl does not offer this. Dense cores do.
    this!
    so...

    living outside a core or a dense form is not socially a good thing...doesn't promote a high standard of living? Define high standard of living please.

    Suburban living cannot have a nod towards environmental awareness and stability? Dense living is devoid of environmental issues? Define please.

    Suburban living and dwellers have no economic mindset? Suburban living means you are economically obtuse?


    I give up. You win. Downtown is for everyone. Everyone else, you suck.
    You are taking a positive statement about downtown (or I think infill development / recycling existing neighbourhoods) and turning it into a negative statement about suburbs. Nobody is saying we need to abandon the suburbs, my view is that they, and the inner city, are more suitable for children for example, than downtown. I'm personally hoping that the NDP will take a leaf out of the book of Ontario and now implement regional greenbelts, so that the cost of greenfield more appropraitely reflects the loss of the farmland / local growing, and so that infill throughout the city (suburbs and inner city included), and condo's downtown, are more competitive on a cost basis. Its a slightlly different issue than promoting downtown though per this thread - promoting downtown is good, whether NDP brings in a greenbelt, or not. I guess the controversy here is the idea that "downtown is for everyone" - its not, some people will never go near it no matter what is done to promote it. Its worth a try though.
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-05-2015 at 04:47 PM.

  85. #185
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    'Together, as a community, we are building a downtown for everyone, one that is economically strong, vibrant, global and inclusive. The visual style is bold, optimistic and confident. Everything our downtown, and Edmonton, truly embodies.'

    http://www.edmonton.ca/go_downtown/a...-everyone.aspx
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  86. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Edmonton for Everyone would be a much better slogan.
    This was a DOWNTOWN initiative to address disruption, congestion while educating and building excitement FOR DOWNTOWN.

    It is to be temporary in nature to get us over the hump of all of this construction.

    I am not sure why this is turning into what it is.
    Because the execution and message being delivered is at best horrible?Look at your opening post (post #1 on this thread) it left the reader with no information except cute little Es and the rest left of interpretation.

    Why do we need this anyways? What is the point? There is none. How does saying downtown is for everyone* get us over the hump of all this construction? Will it make all the hoarding go away? Will it open closed roads? Will it buy me a nice latte at starbucks? no?
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  87. #187

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    It's almost like before this exercise in futility, downtown wasn't for everyone? Is downtown now the "new coke" or "coca cola classic"

    Downtown for everyone is a failure in the message its trying to convey, what ever that might be... has been left up to interpretation.

    http://www.marketing91.com/coca-cola-brand-failure/
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  88. #188

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    ^

    You're entitled to your opinion. I'm personally excited too see a new downtown emerging after decades of neglect and it being a ghost town after hours, because a strong downtown is good for a strong Edmonton, and every neighborhood benefits from it.

    I could argue a million reasons why that is so, but this thread seems to have turned into something else.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 11-05-2015 at 05:09 PM.

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    100% of Edmonton was greenfield at one point, we are all in this together, and no, because your house was built 20 years ago doesn't make it any different if it was built 50 years ago, or your infill, or live in a suburb, or in a shoebox downtown or etc. We all pay taxes, and we are all in this together.

    Edmonton for everyone! Enough is enough with these silos and I'm holier than thou because I live in this part of city and you dont bu llsh it that preeminent Connect2Downtown.

    And with our growth rates, you can built infill till the pervial cows come home, but it still wont be enough to support our growth, greenfield needs to occur. Let's be smart about it though, and stop making it out to be the bandit you want it to be to support your decision to live in a shoebox.

    I wish you wouldn't take this personally, because it is not personal. I fully understand the desire for greenfield development, and the difficulty in avoiding it with our current demographics.

    What I am making is an objective statement about development patterns. I think (and hope) you will agree that greenfield development is both more costly and more environmentally damaging than core development.

    The "we are all in this together" mentality is nice, but it does not change cold economic reality. If we want to have a sustainable community, one that will be able to offer our children and their children a high standard of living, we need to make tough choices.

    One of those choices, perhaps one of the most important ones on a national level, is to stop subsidizing greenfield development. If people pay for the service and infrastructure cost, and environmental damage they cause by buying into a greenfield development, all is fine. If they do not, things will go increasingly awry into the future.

    Also, as to your last comment about "let the buying public" make choices, that is exactly what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that we stop giving perverse incentives to unsound economic and environmental development patterns, and then let people make the choice.

    In mean meantime, I think programs and policies that support the development of downtown to make it more attractive are a very good idea. We need both a "carrot" (nice downtown for "everyone") and a "stick" (greenfield buyers pay the real cost of their homes, not a subsidized price).
    Fine, but we're not subsidizing greenfield development much anymore. We're still subsidizing single family neighbourhoods wherever they are, in the short term (current) costs of re-building the streets and sidewalks in our oldest areas, in the long-term costs of low-productivity, low-density 60's and 70's neighbourhoods and just in the general fact that commercial areas in general cross-subsidize residential areas, at least as long as people-services costs are accounted as costing us where people live, and not where they work.

    And as far as all that goes, if we build dense, walkable, transit-rational neighbourhoods in greenfield they can be responsible, as long as they are more than just isolated pockets. We're not there yet, but we could be.

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    Again, as a relative newbie to this board I'm more than confused by the reaction this has caused. I'm amazed that this is something contentious. I live in a suburban neighborhood, I drive a Silverado to get groceries and to Southgate. I grew up in a suburban neighborhood. But I never interpreted this add campaign as something threatening to that life style choice. Quite the opposite - i just thought it was inviting me to spend more time downtown.

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    ^I think the reaction is as much about the personalities involved and the years of animosity slowly built up between some posters here than it is about the issues themselves. This entire thread could probably stand to use a night off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    And as a woman I didn't have to worry (like I have to downtown) with fending off off-color comments (can't imagine what the younger women face) and having to dodge aggressive panhandlers.
    My girlfriend has lived mostly central since she moved to Edmonton 7 or so years ago, and specifically with me on 104 street for the past 18 months. I can't really comment about what her experiences were before she moved in with me, but she's never had any negative experiences with "off-color comments" that I'm aware of. She gets hassled more at grocery stores and the gym than anywhere else.

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    ^My wife finds street harassment to be really bad downtown. I do believe it's a real issue.

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    ^my ex has problems with it to, she is careful when goes to china town area now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    ^^ Really? None? My Garneau experience had all this and more. I didn't feel out of place (like I do downtown) because I'm (a) older, and (b) not a hipster. And all of my conveniences were local. And as a woman I didn't have to worry (like I have to downtown) with fending off off-color comments (can't imagine what the younger women face) and having to dodge aggressive panhandlers.

    Also more of the stuff I like to buy was within walking distance.

    Eve
    Not quite. Garneau is pretty public, as streets go, thanks to the steady stream of pedestrians on nearly every street going to the university and back. I'd even say that in some ways it's nicer, but that's not thanks to being more open, it's actually the opposite.
    Garneau has streets that have been absorbed into the university that feel slightly private. Pleasant, but private. It's full of front yards that are private, and that privacy imposes, somehow, on the sidewalk, make it slightly private. There are lots of spots in Garneau where a public bench, or a bus stop would feel completely out of place, because those places are too private. It doesn't feel right to wait, or just sit, on the sidewalk in front of those (very nice) garneau homes, unless you belong to them. Downtown is the opposite, any level spot seems available to sit, every post to lock your bike, and every wall to lean on.

    Which has, unfortunately, allowed certain people to "take over" downtown at certain times, because so far we have been unable or unwilling to enforce against anti-social behaviours that can make you, and so many others, uncomfortable. Yet, when Everyone actually shows up, on free-movie night or farmers market time or on a sunny sunday afternoon at the leg pool, the uncomfortableness disappears as the sometimes dominant ne'er-do-wells disappear into the crowd of everyone when nearly everyone knows the kind of behaviour that isn't acceptable.

  96. #196

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    All,

    Sorry for ruining your thread. I thought C2E was a place for discussion, but turns out I was wrong. Threads like this are only meant for chest thumping and fist bumps, as I'm told.

    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    Thou shall not talk badly about downtown.
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  97. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    When people identify problems with downtown, its swept under a rug like its nothing, and those that point out the problems are called trolls and told they add nothing to the conversation.
    A few years ago, MEdwards, you were quite visibly in the downtown-defence club. What happened? I'm a little curious.

  98. #198
    highlander
    Guest

    Default

    ^^Eve and Replacement had posts questioning this campaign right at the start of this thread. they were not met with dismissive responses, but with actual discussion.

    Your posts were not. You can ask yourself why, or you can just admit that the response you got is exactly what you wanted.

    Downtown is for Everyone in different ways, I guess. Sometimes a McCoy just needs a Hatfield.
    Last edited by highlander; 11-05-2015 at 09:27 PM.

  99. #199

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    Weird thread. Slogans are generally meant to evoke different things in different people. "Downtown for Everyone" will likely evoke positive feelings amongst the majority of the audience. But of course, some will find the negative. I'd posit that in this case, the only possible way to derive any negativity with this slogan is by applying a pre-existing negative bias to it.

    I personally think that "Downtown for Everyone" is about positioning Downtown as a rapidly developing amenity which is available to all Edmontonians. It is for everyone, although not all will choose to use it.

    "What are you talking about, Nike? 'Just Do It'? Do what, exactly?! Until your slogan fully describes any and all things that I am to do, I will do nothing, and be angry at you for it!"

  100. #200
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    49,113

    Default

    Thankfully many of us are just ignoring certain folk now rather than feeding the bears.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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