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Thread: If CPR abandons their Strathcona Yard

  1. #1

    Default If CPR abandons their Strathcona Yard

    This CBC News article indicates CP is pulling up tracks in Old Strathcona. Apparently the Whyte Avenue crossing arms are history, too. However, "A spokesperson for CP would not confirm how much track will be removed, or what the company has planned for the land when the tracks are gone." The local Business Association would at least like to see 76 Avenue extended across the yard. The City of Edmonton hasn't yet been given any kind of official notice by CPR.

    The Arbutus rail corridor issue in Vancouver has that city and CP miles apart on purchase price of that abandoned route. Hopefully that wouldn't be the case if the City of Edmonton were to negotiate for this land or some portion thereof.

    Ultimately I would like to see consideration given to designing a primary north-south access to downtown by making use of the right of way for a sunken arterial through Old Strathcona along with a companion bridge to the new Walterdale ... even if I have to list that under the Confess Your Unpopular Opinion thread.

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    See high level bridge, LRT, CP Rail for any indication on how this might go.

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    This is far different from the Vancouver example.

    There it's a narrow corridor and the city wants 100% of it for a greenway, but CPR's asking price is based on developing the whole thing as condos.
    Here the city could buy land for a crossing or two and reserve a ROW along the old tracks (for a Multi-use trail, or future LRT, or the Province might do it for HSR) and there's still lots of land for CPR to sell for development. Actually, the value of the remaining land would probably increase substantially if a crossing or two were built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    This CBC News article indicates CP is pulling up tracks in Old Strathcona.
    Hmmm. So I can no longer refer to the area of Whyte Ave. east of the Strath as "the wrong side of the tracks" then? Who knows, maybe that area will finally improve now!

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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...cona-1.2777217

    According to CBC the tracks will be ripped up all the way back to Argyll Road.

    Can see more mixed residential/retail south and east of Whyte and 102 street - that area is already starting to look like the new hip place to be in CoE (poet, and didn't know it).

    Be interesting to see what the province does too - HSR flights of fancy and all - will it pony up and buy a R-O-W now that CP Rail no longer conveniently needs the land?
    ... gobsmacked

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    ^^ I lived in north downtown where even though the "tracks" were grass, I was still on the "wrong side of the tracks".

    Eve

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    I would love to see the CP yard removed from strathcona... and filled in with condos.

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    76ave crossing! Yes please possible 2 between whyte and 63rd would be bliss!

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    With CPR Leaving it would be possible to eliminate the underpass at argyle. On the other hand, the two bridges there could be used for a multi-use path and for future HSR/LRT. There's lots of opportunity there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    See high level bridge, LRT, CP Rail for any indication on how this might go.
    The CPR's greed cost both us and them millions. If they had been willing to negotiate they could have sold the bridge for a million or two more and the city could have saved tens of millions on the south LRT.

    Hopefully management at the CPR has grown up and they will be willing to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement. It should definitely include at least one connection, preferably more (I'd like to see every second avenue connected).

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    Drove Whyte Ave just now. The crossing arms are indeed gone.

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    I was hoping they would have left the crossing arms - they were a fantastic visual piece. The city should find some and install them as public art/history.
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    ^^^ the furthest south crossing that I think would work is at 69 or 68 using the City yard there, then 76 for sure, and one more closer to whyte. Most other prospective crossings would require property acquisition and demolitions between the CP ROW and gateway, and/or between Gateway and Calgary Trail.

    I expect we'll see a mixed use/residential Neighbourhood north of 76, and a business park south of there where the existing light industrial gets a little less light.

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    ^^ Yes, they do add to the charm of the street. I agree that the city should install something similar.

    I know High Level Streetcar group were talking about crossing whyte ave and into the roundhouse area, wonder how their negotiations may fit into this.

    But, as mentioned, this will allow for more east/west routes. One at 76 avenue and around 69/70 avenue would be dandy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I was hoping they would have left the crossing arms - they were a fantastic visual piece. The city should find some and install them as public art/history.
    Was just about to post the same thing. Maybe just some decorative/non-functional ones.

    I'd love to see a thin strip of the entire length reserved for a multi-use trail straight from South Common (or further) to Whyte Ave. Add some trees. Beautify the area. This is a huge opportunity to really revamp a good portion of the drive North on Gateway. Put condos where you can, and keep LRT in mind for the future.

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    They're not pulling out that far, but there are big opportunities here. A multi-use trail south from whyte could have a branch into the Hazeldean multi-use trail, and could go over Argyll and then another branch along the existing rail line to the future Wagner station.

    They should have 6 full block to sell for residential development north of 76ave, and another 12 full blocks south of 76 ave that may not be suitable for residential.

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    Right, but there is a long narrow strip that the city currently has on the market on that South portion (South of Argyll) which they could use, in theory.

    I'm just saying, some vision by council would be nice considering there are multiple opportunities to really transform the entire area.

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    Of course they would announce this AFTER Argyll was rebuilt under the bridge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Hopefully management at the CPR has grown up and they will be willing to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement.
    Managements' first responsibility is to shareholder value. I can assure you, Hunter Harrison takes that responsibility very seriously.

    Don't be expecting any sweet deals. Is Marathon still CP's real estate arm? Or is that long gone?
    ... gobsmacked

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    Marathon's gone.

    Unlike Arbutus in Vancouver or the high level bridge, this should be an easy negotiation. The city can offer sweetened zoning on the 18 blocks +/- that they can sell to developers, and the city gets a decent deal on ROW for connecting streets and Multi-use path that will improve the value of the land that they have left to sell.

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    ^^ Not expecting sweet deals, just hoping for good faith negotiations rather than ridiculous, inflexible demands that cause delays and end up costing both sides money. That certainly isn't in the shareholders best interests.

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    Should have been negotiated when the city dished out for the new interchange at 41SW IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swillv8 View Post
    76ave crossing! Yes please possible 2 between whyte and 63rd would be bliss!
    Agreed.

    One of the arguments against a pedestrian-only Whyte Ave or lowering its speed limit is because Whyte Ave is the only major east-west corridor between the river and 63 Ave. Now we can create another corridor at 76 Ave. Connecting some smaller roads such as 80 Ave wherever feasible wouldn't hurt either.
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    Lots of folks putting the cart before the horse here.

    That land is polluted! How far down? You seriously want to buy condos and housing on polluted land that has not been treated?

    Saving the corridor is critical for future commuter rail service if not high speed rail. Those trains will need a maintenance yard somewhere too.

    I agree with the sentiment to open up and connect 76 Avenue.

    I also see the oppotunity to be able to put some kind of high speed thruway under Old Strathcona in a tunnel to the new Walterdale Bridge in order to calm the traffic in Old Strathcona and allow pedestrian friendly development, maybe even including extending the trolley to Whyte Ave or even over to 100 Street in the medium to long-term.

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    While a property is naturally reclaiming, can it be a park/greenspace?

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    Because the CP yards are not accessible right now, it's easy to forget how much potentially developable land there is. Almost three city blocks wide from 80 Avenue south to Argyll. A wonderful opportunity for infill and better connectivity.

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    If vacated.. The equivalent to the rail yards at 104 ave, but the vibrancy and bones are already there. May we hope and plan
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    If vacated.. The equivalent to the rail yards at 104 ave, but the vibrancy and bones are already there. May we hope and plan
    Not really a great comparison considering that a big stretch of the old downtown railyards are now strip malls.
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    ^That's my fear lol, if it means more 'gateway-esque' development creeping up to whyte ave, or more crap like fuzion condos creeping down to 63rd, I'd rather just keep the rail yards - Yes I would rather an empty derelict space than more kinds of crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    One of the arguments against a pedestrian-only Whyte Ave or lowering its speed limit is because Whyte Ave is the only major east-west corridor between the river and 63 Ave. Now we can create another corridor at 76 Ave.
    Not sure if 76 Ave will ever be that corridor. The folks living in the Queen Alexandria community are pushing hard for 76 Ave to be less of a corridor rather than more of one when the avenue gets rehabilitated next year.

  31. #31

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    Railway rights-of-way are, as I understand it, crown land in a kind of freehold by the railway company, but only while they are actively exploited.

    If CPR chooses to abandon its right of way, the rights revert to the crown -- but which crown? Is the land federal, provincial, or is it somehow assigned to the municipal corporation?

    I think I recall reading somewhere that formal ownership of the High Level Bridge and the streetcar right-of-way through Strathcona is provincial, although vested by the province to the city.

    If indeed so, then the Strathcona yard is provincial property once abandoned by the railway. And in that case all the urban development and even arterial-roadway links would have to wait for the province and the city to come to an understanding.

    Since the province has long mulled an eventual high-speed rail link to Calgary, it may be that the city will never be given an opportunity to develop the yard in some of the ways people on here and also quoted in the CBC story are wishing for.

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    In the early 90's, CP "sold" the HLB to the city for a dollar. The city then had the privilege of fixing the bridge for $20 million. The province got the Right of way from 100 Ave to Gateway Blvd, including the top deck of the HLB from CP in exchange for land near the Anthony Henday where CP realigned their track. The province still holds the land near the HLB for future high speed rail.

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    Would love to see a connection along 76 or 79 ave, but I'm not sure the King Edward community would be on board. I could imagine a 76 ave connection would create a lot more traffic east of the tracks, but most of it would probably turn north/south at 99 str.

    Also, my first impression from the article was that the lack of information coming from CP was kind of odd. I know it's a business, but don't they plan these things years in advance? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to be transparent and cooperate with the city? Or am I reading too much into it?

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    Please extend the street car into a new well planned commercial and residential mix.
    Is punching 76 Ave through possible? That would be good, but adds more lights to gateway which is already bottlenecked at 82 ave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    If vacated.. The equivalent to the rail yards at 104 ave, but the vibrancy and bones are already there. May we hope and plan
    Not really a great comparison considering that a big stretch of the old downtown railyards are now strip malls.
    and macewan.

    and some rental residential.

    and an under construction arena.

    and epcor tower.

    and soon an under construction two faculties for the u of a and the first of the galleria theatres.

    and the balance of station lands.

    and the ram.

    and not to forget the northeast lrt...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Maybe they'll fix it up real nice like they did to the NE LRT ROW
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Maybe they'll fix it up real nice like they did to the NE LRT ROW
    true enough - we sure do seem to struggle with that last 20% of everything when it comes to design aesthetics and urban edges and - heaven forbid - actually maintaining and looking after things once they are done. on the other hand, no one grows weeds and dandelions better than community services.
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    ^more or less what I was really getting at, kcantor, but I was really talking about opportunity. Without beating ourselves up about strip malls, with the Strathcoba Junction Plan and other good strong zoning in the area and community support, I'm optimistic today. 76 ave could be a good connection if drivers don't mind driving 40km through King Edward and Ritchie/ Queen Alex will probably soon follow. Sure traffic will increase but there won't be any trucks. I live in that area and driving through it now is a wack short cut
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    See high level bridge, LRT, CP Rail for any indication on how this might go.
    The CPR's greed cost both us and them millions. If they had been willing to negotiate they could have sold the bridge for a million or two more and the city could have saved tens of millions on the south LRT.

    Hopefully management at the CPR has grown up and they will be willing to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement. It should definitely include at least one connection, preferably more (I'd like to see every second avenue connected).
    Yeah, it would be so neat to bring those original negotiators back to the table to see what they'd all do if they could do it again.

    Think of all the time lost too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Railway rights-of-way are, as I understand it, crown land in a kind of freehold by the railway company, but only while they are actively exploited.

    If CPR chooses to abandon its right of way, the rights revert to the crown -- but which crown? Is the land federal, provincial, or is it somehow assigned to the municipal corporation?

    I think I recall reading somewhere that formal ownership of the High Level Bridge and the streetcar right-of-way through Strathcona is provincial, although vested by the province to the city.

    If indeed so, then the Strathcona yard is provincial property once abandoned by the railway. And in that case all the urban development and even arterial-roadway links would have to wait for the province and the city to come to an understanding.

    Since the province has long mulled an eventual high-speed rail link to Calgary, it may be that the city will never be given an opportunity to develop the yard in some of the ways people on here and also quoted in the CBC story are wishing for.
    Well that's an interesting perspective! Thanks for posting.

  41. #41

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    Simon's Journal article says CP's not going anywhere.

    Canadian Pacific says it has no plans to close the yard, nor to reduce operations there. And no. The rest of us won’t be allowed to shortcut across its property by car, by bike, or on foot any time soon.

    “No aspect of our operation has changed,” says CP’s Salem Woodrow. “No access to our yard has been changed. It’s still an active rail yard. It’s still completely a rail yard.”
    Denied! >:/ For now.

    But I'm still dreaming of a new arterial ...

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    CP never really has been all that forthcoming with their future plans...

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    Honestly I wish the federal government would change thing so that cities (and their citizens) had an equal voice in rail development / operations within their limits. Rail companies have way too much authority and autonomous power in this country. I know there was historic importance in rail, but our laws should reflect the priorities of the 21st century rather than the 19th century.

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    https://twitter.com/TravisMcEwanCBC

    Chris Ashdown overlooks the site of a proposed High Level street car track extension to Whyte Avenue.


    Edmonton Radial Railway Society says their pickup location is hidden. This location more visible.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^
    That'd be a nice spot. A lot closer for daytime shoppers and night time revelers to get to and from Whyte Ave proper then its current spot by the old Armoury/Club Malibu.

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    Not for night time revelers.

    Except during the Fringe, the High Level Streetcar only operates until about 4:00 P.M. or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    Honestly I wish the federal government would change thing so that cities (and their citizens) had an equal voice in rail development / operations within their limits. Rail companies have way too much authority and autonomous power in this country. I know there was historic importance in rail, but our laws should reflect the priorities of the 21st century rather than the 19th century.
    Agreed. There should be a federal body with the power to override decisions of lower governments if the railway can prove they will seriously disrupt the national transportation infrastructure, but otherwise railways should be subject to municipal and provincial laws just like any other corporation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Not for night time revelers.

    Except during the Fringe, the High Level Streetcar only operates until about 4:00 P.M. or so.
    You're right, TD, I was thinking of the times I'd taken the street car during the fringe, and forgot it doesn't operate in the evenings the rest of the time.

    At that spot, if could get the city to flip part of the bill and some volunteers to work late, I could see the street car being part of the late night transit the city was thinking about implementing. You could use it to shift revelers between downtown and Whyte, and to the LRT at Grandin station. They might want consider purchasing a newer, less historic, more damage resistant street car for the late night run, as I don't know how well the late night revelers will treat car

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    The German LRT prototype would work just fine for that, but unfortunately it will be returned to hamburg in a few years. A new streetcar would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    A new streetcar would be great.
    We are getting a new streetcar, except it's headed to mill woods. *runs away*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Not for night time revelers.

    Except during the Fringe, the High Level Streetcar only operates until about 4:00 P.M. or so.
    They really should turn the streetcar into a viable transportation alternative, right now it seems to be just a hobby horse for some old retired rail engineers. Moving the stop to Whyte Ave could help bump that demand for this service. Though I'm not sure if it should be used for ferrying drunken frat boys.
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    Making it a more frequent service would be a boon for both the north and south side of the river - it wouldn't be a drunk streetcar anymore than a bus or LRT would be between the two destinations - and would be more widely used. Would love to use it more than a nostalgic summer ride. Would boost kitchy tourism maybe for those visiting and locals alike? It would at least be practical, in my mind.
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    While they're at it, if the North end could be extended to Jasper Ave it could really be used quite frequently. Farmers market to farmers market, bar strip to bar strip, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    They really should turn the streetcar into a viable transportation alternative, right now it seems to be just a hobby horse for some old retired rail engineers.
    ...and a hobby horse for current transit planners with buckets of money to spend on a slow streetcar.
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    I can't see CP keeping the yard for much longer there isn't a lot of businesses that use the line north of 63rd Avenue. 5-10 years I'd guess it will be history.

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    ^ Agreed. The $$$ will prevail, unless CP decides to hold on to the land and let it sit while land values increase. Scummy behaviour, but since CP seem able to be 'above the law' on a local basis anyway, they'll probably be able to get away with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    I can't see CP keeping the yard for much longer there isn't a lot of businesses that use the line north of 63rd Avenue. 5-10 years I'd guess it will be history.
    I don't work for CP, I work for CN, so I'm still an outsider. But from how I see it, they will still need this yard. They don't really have one main yard in Edmonton (this one is probably the biggest). They have a few yards in the northeast part of Edmonton/Strathcona County, but those always appear to be at capacity. The number of costumers in Edmonton continue to grow, so they will need room to grow as well.

    I think they see this yard as a good asset, and I bet they'll keep it an active yard for quite some time as an overflow for their other yards.

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    Maybe, but IIRC, they're ripping up ten full sidings and I'm not sure why you'd go to the expense lest you had other plans ...
    ... gobsmacked

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    Well, ripping up track is profitable. They sell the steel, or use it again for track needed elsewhere. But, yeah, I'm not sure what their plans are exactly, but I know their other yards are at capacity.

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    If they need capacity it would make more sense to move this yard down to the land being vacated by the multi-modal yard when that moves down to 41ave SW. The land in old strathcona is worth more, and it's more isolated from their network, which I assume would mean longer and more expensive movements to get trains into and out of the yard.

    But what do I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    Well, ripping up track is profitable. They sell the steel, or use it again for track needed elsewhere. But, yeah, I'm not sure what their plans are exactly, but I know their other yards are at capacity.
    Ripping up track costs way more than the steel is worth.
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    News story said rail was to be reused

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    If they need capacity it would make more sense to move this yard down to the land being vacated by the multi-modal yard when that moves down to 41ave SW. The land in old strathcona is worth more, and it's more isolated from their network, which I assume would mean longer and more expensive movements to get trains into and out of the yard.

    But what do I know.
    That's what I thought the new yards down at 41st Ave SW were for, one centralised yard instead of two - Strathcona and the one between Gateway and 99th south of the Whitemud.

    But what do I know, either?
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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    If they need capacity it would make more sense to move this yard down to the land being vacated by the multi-modal yard when that moves down to 41ave SW. The land in old strathcona is worth more, and it's more isolated from their network, which I assume would mean longer and more expensive movements to get trains into and out of the yard.

    But what do I know.
    That's what I thought the new yards down at 41st Ave SW were for, one centralised yard instead of two - Strathcona and the one between Gateway and 99th south of the Whitemud.

    But what do I know, either?
    The new site by 41st Ave SW is a container yard to replace the one on 34th Ave.
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    ^ Correct. The yard by Whyte Ave. is for mixed traffic. They have two more yards in Edmonton on the Willingdon Sub, one at 50 Street, and a smaller one between Petroleum Way and AHD. Both of those yard look to be close to capacity with no room to expand.

    They may repurpose the yard at 34 Ave, once the new intermodal yard at 41 Ave is built, but it doesn't have as much room as the yard at Whyte Ave.

    Again, I have no inside info, so I'm just speculating. But I imagine they'll keep the Whyte Ave. yard for quite a few years at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    Well, ripping up track is profitable. They sell the steel, or use it again for track needed elsewhere. But, yeah, I'm not sure what their plans are exactly, but I know their other yards are at capacity.
    Ripping up track costs way more than the steel is worth.
    I was always told otherwise. Especially when ripping up miles and miles worth. Maybe I'm wrong. But even so, if they are reusing the rails elsewhere, that is cheaper than buying new track.

  67. #67

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    You do save money reusing rail but your original statement used the word profitable.

    It is more an avoided cost issue. Buying new rail for one line and sending the old rail for scrap is the most expensive option. Reusing the old rail saves money but rail companies do not yield a net profit doing so.
    Ripping up rail is expensive, it takes a large crew, heavy equipment, you have to often get rid of the toxic creosote ties, regrade the ROW and so forth. They can reuse the ballast, track switches and other hardware as long as they are in good shape. Then you have to install it all on the new line.

    Cost savings, yes
    Profitable, no
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 02-10-2014 at 08:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    ^ Correct. The yard by Whyte Ave. is for mixed traffic. They have two more yards in Edmonton on the Willingdon Sub, one at 50 Street, and a smaller one between Petroleum Way and AHD. Both of those yard look to be close to capacity with no room to expand.

    They may repurpose the yard at 34 Ave, once the new intermodal yard at 41 Ave is built, but it doesn't have as much room as the yard at Whyte Ave.

    Again, I have no inside info, so I'm just speculating. But I imagine they'll keep the Whyte Ave. yard for quite a few years at least.
    I still don't see why 41st Ave. couldn't accommodate both container and mixed traffic usage. Surely there's enough virgin space down there to do that? But again, WDIK.
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    What is the difference between cost savings and profit? If they save money by reusing track does that saving not make its way to the bottom line?

  70. #70

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    It is more an avoided cost example. Reusing track that has already been bought and paid for and not spending money on new track.

    It is like taking out a wall in your basement and reusing the studs to help build your new garage. If you are doing the work yourself and not getting paid, you save material costs but do not make a profit per se. If you have to pay someone to take out the wall and pay again to have them remove all the nails to build your garage, the net cost may even be more than using new studs. New rails are worth a fair bit of money compared to studs so there is a solid reason to reuse old rail to save costs but it is not a profitable in the true sense of the word for accountants.

    You are not going to have a profit when you finish the garage, you will just have saved on your material costs.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 02-10-2014 at 09:27 AM.
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    They might expand the NE yard by a track or 2, 5-10 years ago they did add another track to the yard and along the AHD to Yellowhead ramps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    ^ Correct. The yard by Whyte Ave. is for mixed traffic. They have two more yards in Edmonton on the Willingdon Sub, one at 50 Street, and a smaller one between Petroleum Way and AHD. Both of those yard look to be close to capacity with no room to expand.

    They may repurpose the yard at 34 Ave, once the new intermodal yard at 41 Ave is built, but it doesn't have as much room as the yard at Whyte Ave.

    Again, I have no inside info, so I'm just speculating. But I imagine they'll keep the Whyte Ave. yard for quite a few years at least.
    I still don't see why 41st Ave. couldn't accommodate both container and mixed traffic usage. Surely there's enough virgin space down there to do that? But again, WDIK.
    I don't think there is much room for anything else. You need staging room between tracks for containers. Also, I think CP sold some of their land on the east side to the city for the new alignment of 91 St.

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    ^ Correct. The yard by Whyte Ave. is for mixed traffic. They have two more yards in Edmonton on the Willingdon Sub, one at 50 Street, and a smaller one between Petroleum Way and AHD. Both of those yard look to be close to capacity with no room to expand.

    They may repurpose the yard at 34 Ave, once the new intermodal yard at 41 Ave is built, but it doesn't have as much room as the yard at Whyte Ave.

    Again, I have no inside info, so I'm just speculating. But I imagine they'll keep the Whyte Ave. yard for quite a few years at least.
    I agree. I have no inside info either, but from how I see it, I don't see them going anywhere either. There also appears to be a number of freight sheds being used, maintenance buildings, and fuel & sand facilities. There still appears to be quite a bit of active infrastructure being used. It is also a fairly good sized area. If it was to be relocated I'm sure it wouldn't be downsized.
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  74. #74

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    Talk on the radio today they are removing the crossings at Whitemud beside Gateway Blvd.

    Can anyone else confirm?

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    ^ They said on the news this morning they are removing the track crossing Whyte Ave.
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    The crossing at the Whitemud ramps will be necessary for the long term future as the line goes north before reaching the wye near Argyll Road
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  77. #77

    Exclamation CP Rail to tap value of excess lands with property developer Dream Unlimited

    Apparent confirmation of the September 2014 rumour is listed in this Edmonton Journal article:

    The largest property to be redeveloped is at the railway’s South Edmonton Yard, a 32-hectare site.

    Edmonton Mayor Don Iveson said CP will have to work with the city on any redevelopment plans for the land.

    “We have been waiting for a long time for a sense of what Canadian Pacific wanted to do with that yard south of Argyll,” he said. “I’m very excited for the city being able to work with (them) … It’s not going to happen overnight.”
    It appears to me that Mayor Iveson misspoke, was misquoted or has misunderstood the redevelopment area in question. The South Edmonton Yard (aka Strathcona Yard) is the area south of Whyte and north of Argyll. The old intermodal yard south of Argyll (between 34 and 39 avenues) is on land leased from the province.

    I will reiterate my hope there is consideration for an improved south side-to-downtown corridor through the area.
    Last edited by Spill; 20-01-2015 at 04:10 PM. Reason: typo

  78. #78

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    would love to see gateway/calgary trail slip under whyte avenue (without changing the feel of whyte avenue area and keeping it as ped orientated if not more) into a tunnel that goes under saskatchewan drive and then straight on to the new walterdale bridge.
    Would love to see East and West Whyte avenue solidify. Would love to see the railyards redeveloped into housing...

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    Would like to see 76 Ave extended across the rail yard. That will allow for an alternative east-west commuter route in the vicinity, take the heat off Whyte Ave. The only other entity in the way of that is the Auto Rescue yard west of 99 St.
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 20-01-2015 at 04:35 PM.
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  80. #80

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    The actual CP Rail new release states the site is 92 acres, moderately larger than the 32 hectares listed in the Journal.

    Based on its history in Edmonton regarding ROW changes, it seems clear that CP Rail never publicly admits to anything until they're well into the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    would love to see gateway/calgary trail slip under whyte avenue (without changing the feel of whyte avenue area and keeping it as ped orientated if not more) into a tunnel that goes under saskatchewan drive and then straight on to the new walterdale bridge.
    Would love to see East and West Whyte avenue solidify. Would love to see the railyards redeveloped into housing...
    It would just need to be 2 lanes and could be designed relatively low speed (60km/hr? is doesn't need to be a freeway) but could handle the traffic of 3 northbound lanes at whyte.

    I don't know how much this development really helps that plan, though. I suspect it would have to be tunneled under gateway, not the CP line, which is very narrow at whyte, between Fuzion and the old station.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Would like to see 76 Ave extended across the rail yard. That will allow for an alternative east-west commuter route in the vicinity, take the heat off Whyte Ave. The only other entity in the way of that is the Auto Rescue yard west of 99 St.
    I'm on the fence for this. 76 avenue doesn't really have room to support much more traffic without having a big impact on the communities it travels through... though I would like to see an alternate east-west commuter route between 82 and 63

  83. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Would like to see 76 Ave extended across the rail yard. That will allow for an alternative east-west commuter route in the vicinity, take the heat off Whyte Ave. The only other entity in the way of that is the Auto Rescue yard west of 99 St.
    I'm on the fence for this. 76 avenue doesn't really have room to support much more traffic without having a big impact on the communities it travels through... though I would like to see an alternate east-west commuter route between 82 and 63
    Extend 76 Ave. Then traditional grid for the entire thing. No dicking around.

    We won't get that though. We'll likely end up with stupid windy roads with dumb names and all kinds of idiocy.

    I'm starting to get really concerned that we have too many redevelopments going on at once, and they're competing with cheap shacks in the sticks that force these to be watered down to compete.
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  84. #84

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    ^Complete the grid, nothing else. No dicking around. Definitely. Glad this is supposedly moving onto the chopping block.

    I pretty much live on 76 ave and at rush hour it's busy, but not many people will want to shortcut down a one-lane road doing 50km/h, being behind a bus most of the time, or stopping at stop signs/traffic lights not in your traffic direction's favour. The older neighbourhoods are "designed" for "good" shortcutting, but it wont be as bad as people think.
    Last edited by GenWhy?; 20-01-2015 at 06:55 PM.
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  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Would like to see 76 Ave extended across the rail yard. That will allow for an alternative east-west commuter route in the vicinity, take the heat off Whyte Ave. The only other entity in the way of that is the Auto Rescue yard west of 99 St.
    Extend 76 Ave. Then traditional grid for the entire thing. No dicking around.

    We won't get that though. We'll likely end up with stupid windy roads with dumb names and all kinds of idiocy.
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  86. #86

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    ^I know the Strathcona Junction calls for a return to a complete grid, but we've seen Area Redevelopment Plans be tweeked years down the road. The Strat Junction ARP is a pretty decent document for further development in the area for mixed-use and a return to a full grid network on both sides of the railyards, as well as the yard itself.
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  87. #87

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    and if possible, iron out gateway blvd's kinks through there

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    And move the old train station to Fort Edmonton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    and if possible, iron out gateway blvd's kinks through there
    Please don't. Let the curves and narrow-ish lanes slow traffic before it hits the most pedestrian-heavy district in the city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    And move the old train station to Fort Edmonton.
    Yeah let's keep obliterating our history from the actual city, hide it all away to a theme park. The old train station is now a popular brewpub, so moot point anyway.
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    Connect 76th ave straight-through to complete the grid, and leave Gateway as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    and if possible, iron out gateway blvd's kinks through there
    Please don't. Let the curves and narrow-ish lanes slow traffic before it hits the most pedestrian-heavy district in the city.
    If anything, use this opportunity to build a freeway exit at one of the bends that then tunnels before it hits Whyte Ave, and merges somewhere on Queen Elizabeth Park road. Keep the hairpin obviously, but reroute thru traffic under Whyte and directly onto the road below the hairpin.

    Grow some nuts Edmonton!
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  93. #93

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    ^ I like that idea a lot.

    It would be expensive, but is still be a heck of a lot cheaper in the long run than trying to build more freeways to accommodate all the cars we'll have when this city hits 2 million people.

  94. #94

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    If we're going to tunnel under Whyte then we should go whole hog and eliminate the hairpin as well.

    Cut and cover starting south of Whyte. Or leave the trench open. Either way, don't do it halfway.

  95. #95

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    If we learned anything by now, it's that building freeways in innercities is not a good idea. They are great for connecting cities, not serving them.

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    ^Complete the grid, nothing else. No dicking around. Definitely. Glad this is supposedly moving onto the chopping block.

    I pretty much live on 76 ave and at rush hour it's busy, but not many people will want to shortcut down a one-lane road doing 50km/h, being behind a bus most of the time, or stopping at stop signs/traffic lights not in your traffic direction's favour. The older neighbourhoods are "designed" for "good" shortcutting, but it wont be as bad as people think.
    I'm a fence-sitter, but if they open 76 ave, there'll be pressure to widen the street. Cutting away bike lanes, narrowing sidewalks, removing houses. It's happened before, and I like to think we've moved past this, but I wouldn't rule out it happening again.

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    ^ Buying real estate would be expensive, but it would allow space to have sidewalks, bike lanes and more automobile lanes all at the same time.

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    ^Which would make it into the arterial it doesn't need to be.

    No, they need to make sure it stays as the back route.

  99. #99

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    By the time they get this done and widen 76ave, traffic will have grown exponentially. I really don't think it will help Whyte ave shut down for event or have better pedestrian-friendly streetscaping. It will just become expected that there are two untouchable East-West arteries.

    So if they decide to open 76 ave, I hope they do it in conjunction with making both 76 and whyte more cycling and pedestrian friendly. No widening of 76. Expect that both streets will be constantly congested with traffic, but slow moving traffic.

  100. #100

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    As to widening 76ave... it's single lane traffic from 114st all the way to Sherwood Park Freeway. That's a lot of houses and many new infill houses and businesses to demolish (large apartments, parks, schools and churches too) and not to mention Mill Creek Ravine. If we're talking the year 2040 for a widening... but look at 75st and it's "widening" years ago. Still waiting, I guess.

    As for the grid being re-connected, it will be more than just 76ave, but everything from 76 to 83rd being joined together (with hope and optimism). If I'm going from 75st to the Belgravia side (so 114st area) it would be more convenient for me as a driver to take 63ave or 82ave because they are 2 lanes and arterial roads. 76ave is slow even now - without traffic even. 82ave is busy because not only do you have through traffic, but local traffic prevented from taking other avenues to cross the railyards. They only have those two avenues as real viable options. Saskatchewan Drive, maybe, but that's a one-way for the most part.

    Hopefully our "Complete Streets" guidelines hold up.
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