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Thread: Russia escalates tensions in Ukraine by occupying

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    looks like Russia is stirring the pot again.

    seriously history is gonna look back and see This version of Russia as the greatest troll the world has ever seen. they are lucky that the UN and the EU are spineless.

    also remember that plane that got shot down? how come nobody cares about that anymore?
    Do you believe that the EU, NATO, or the UN should intervene militarily against the wishes of Ukraine?

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  2. #302

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    If people in general expanded reading more then western backed media..... I take everything with a grain of salt and am quite interested with the Russia/ Ukraine conflict . I don't believe anything , it's all propaganda

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    ^because the Russian based media are clearly bastions of open-ness and freedom of information...
    be offended! figure out why later...

  4. #304

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    But you can read opinion pieces from Russian media that blast their government also. I have come to the conclusion that the west is always going to be opposed to Russia because it WILL NOT fall in line with how western nations are supposed to be, I realize that Russia is very corrupt but vilified as badly as they are?

  5. #305

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    Russia sending in humanitarian aid, and NATO is spouting off constantly rhetoric( guns, missiles,heck maybe nukes in the back of aid trucks!

  6. #306

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    ^so the Ukraine government, whose soldiers are fighting Russians soldiers, are part of Western backed media as well? How about the mothers of the Russian soldiers who are being buried in secret funerals in Russia?

    If I was US president, I'd be sending plane loads of military hardware to Kiev right now. I'd send some special forces in as well, in unmarked clothing.

  7. #307

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    Do you believe that there are usually 3 sides to the story? Ukraine is on the wests side, funny how little you hear from the Russians except denial

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swillv8 View Post
    Do you believe that there are usually 3 sides to the story? Ukraine is on the wests side, funny how little you hear from the Russians except denial
    Actually I believe there are likely more sides and agendas than that.

    The Ukrainians have their side and agenda and its all about the Ukraine and how they are perceived and sit in the world.

    The Rebels (for lack of a better term so far) have their side, agenda and a point of view on how they are how they are perceived and sit in the world.

    Then there is the EU with their agenda and wanting to appear strong but not unreasonable but really do not want a shooting war.

    NATO is in a similar position to the EU with no clear mission and the same problems.

    Then there is the UN...which is a mess on a good day and is stumbling to find an agenda, a Raison d'ętre and an agenda of their own.

    The US knows it needs to be strong, but doesn't know how without upsetting the applecart at home or breaking the bank. Everyone criticizes them but as evidenced by comments on this thread we also expect them to do something.

    Then there is Russia, flexing muscle for the first time in decades. Being the player - the force and seeing how far they can push...you can bet there is a whole agenda there.

    Canada is the lost kid trying to play with the big boys and having a hard time fitting in.

    Then there are those that just want it over with so they can get back to living.

    Then those that it will never end for because of the loses they have suffered and that includes all those families and others that lost people they love on aircraft shot down because of stupidity.

    And I likely have not hit all of the groups...

    This is going to go on till someone takes a stand outside of the Ukrainians...

    I just hope its soon and doesn't lead to more deaths.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  9. #309

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    ^a more bleak view is this unrest might go on for years. Putin can send in soldiers across the border at will ("on a training mission", as those captured soldiers tell), although in time, fatigue will set in, and the deaths of Russian soldiers will start turning the tide of public opinion in Russia (Putins approval ratings are already finally starting to drop). That scenario would be a repeat of Afghanistan for Russia.

    I think for that not to happen, the Ukraine has to give Russia a bloody nose, a loss of a few thousand soldiers perhaps (some fuel air explosives or similar would be useful). Perhaps Ukraine has to start hitting back not just on their side of the border, Crimea should be a valid place to undertake operations, just over the Russian border as well. Its hard though, you need motivated soldiers for that, and Ukraine soldiers are far from well paid.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-08-2014 at 08:46 PM.

  10. #310

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    Last I heard was approx 2 weeks ago putin is at an all time high for approval ratings within Russia at 86%

    Now interestingly this was a survey from at USA:0

  11. #311

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    ^^ I agree with ur point on this is very complex, you seem very well versed .

    I'm rooting more for Russians trapped in Ukraine, I'm against war more less, I question all sides I hope the fighting is from civilians standing up for what they perceive is in their brothers and sisters best interest and a country with a day instead of Ukraine trying to assimilate then and force Ukrainian culture in a predominantly Russian speaking territory.

    Until Ukraine stands down from cozy ing up to the eu and listens to Russian interests slso this might be a bloody conflict for a little while yet

  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Do you believe that the EU, NATO, or the UN should intervene militarily against the wishes of Ukraine?
    It wouldn't be against Ukraines wishes anymore, here's from the Ukraine ambasador to Canada, Ukraine will now also be seeking NATO membership (good work Putin):

    Prystaiko said his country appreciates Canada’s previous support of non-lethal equipment, but insists it’s time for “real” military support.

    Prystaiko wants Canada and its allies to provide fighter jets – such as Canada’s CF-18s – to help the Ukraine military with air support, as well as rifles, armoured vehicles, surveillance equipment and any other support that can help Ukraine in this “war.”

    He said he personally wants NATO to provide troops on the ground, but noted that wasn’t his country’s official position yet, and conceded many countries will be unwilling to put their troops in harm’s way.

    “I’m asking them to help us with military equipment,” he said. “We are thankful for the protective gear they gave us … but now we need real support. We need to fight.”
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08...sian-invasion/

  13. #313
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    That's new. Up until now Ukraine has not been asking for direct aid. It's one of the reasons I've criticisms of the West's response to be frustrating, they seem to assume there is more militarily we could have been doing when there really hasn't been.

    Of course asking NATO forces to directly engage Russian forces has all sorts pitfalls as well so we'll see.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  14. #314

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    ^I don't think our cf18s could safely operate there given the Sams, unless they are taken out first. It requires stealth aircraft or drones, or some Growlers to provide jamming.

  15. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I don't think our cf18s could safely operate there given the Sams, unless they are taken out first. It requires stealth aircraft or drones, or some Growlers to provide jamming.
    Based on the information from the shooting down of the Malaysia air airliner our CF-18s would be just fine.

    But with the few we could send they would essentially be irrelevant.

    Better to call on NATO and use the European Air assets, more numbers, can get there quicker and be just as effective.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  16. #316
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    Are people really, seriously thinking we should engage the Russians directly in a shooting war???

  17. #317

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    Instead of canada having the glory of mocking Russia with highlighted maps , Russia could be issuing their own version of "maps" especially of the arctic. Walking on thin ice?

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swillv8 View Post
    Instead of canada having the glory of mocking Russia with highlighted maps , Russia could be issuing their own version of "maps" especially of the arctic. Walking on thin ice?
    Russia and Canada's claims don't overlap. In fact Russia's contention that it can claim all the way to the pole bolsters Canada and Denmark's claim that they can do the same.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I don't think our cf18s could safely operate there given the Sams, unless they are taken out first. It requires stealth aircraft or drones, or some Growlers to provide jamming.
    Based on the information from the shooting down of the Malaysia air airliner our CF-18s would be just fine.

    But with the few we could send they would essentially be irrelevant.

    Better to call on NATO and use the European Air assets, more numbers, can get there quicker and be just as effective.

    In my highly biased personal opinion
    I believe we already have six CF-18s in Poland as part of the NATO group monitoring Ukraine. Any call on NATO could include our assets already there which may be why Canada is included in Ukraine's appeal.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  20. #320

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Are people really, seriously thinking we should engage the Russians directly in a shooting war???
    It's hardly a new thing, that's what happened in Korea and to a lesser extent Vietnam. I don't think it will happen though overtly like that. What I suspect will happen is NATO countries will start supplying weapons to Ukraine. Some special forces units might also get involved in advisory / combat assistance type roles (that wouldn't be publicized though, again, nothing new).
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-08-2014 at 06:21 PM.

  21. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Based on the information from the shooting down of the Malaysia air airliner our CF-18s would be just fine.
    Ukraine SU 24s, 25s and MIG29s have been shot down by Russian SAMs, I don't think our CF18s which are similar size would do any better unless those SAMs were taken out or jammed. Nothing that isn't stealth can fly in this area right now, this is why it's full of tanks and armoured vehicles (which are easy to knock out with air power).

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...est_in_Ukraine
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-08-2014 at 06:19 PM.

  22. #322
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    Vlad the Bad has brilliantly thought out today, tomorrow and maybe even the day after...

    By every tick of the doomsday clock though, he's condemned Russia's children and maybe even their children's children to crippling poverty.

    The western free world is awash in natural gas. An LNG terminal or two in the west and Russia's only weapon against poverty-inducing, (and possibly even bankruptcy inducing) sanctions might be nuclear war - not that it would have the money to actually launch much of anything.

    He forgets, Russia, like every other imperialist power gave up the empire because it was economically unsustainable. Now, with no empire even, he risks making his very own country economically unsustainable.

    The good news? Already Western governments must know that Putin is little better than a corrupt, money-hungry carpet-bagger no better than Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe.

    Russia's citizens might do well to consider the life of a Zimbabwean - it's potentially their children's future.
    ... gobsmacked

  23. #323

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    ^but those LNG terminals are years away, and winter is around the corner. Unlike Mugabe, Europe needs Russia as much as Russia needs Europe. It's like a game of Chicken, if Europe stopped importing gas from Russia, Russia would soon be bankrupt (as will be years before their pipelines reach China), but in the meantime, Europe will be devastated by output reductions as well, high gas prices or shortages would devastate their power generation and industrial output, their economies already have ten percent unemployment.

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Are people really, seriously thinking we should engage the Russians directly in a shooting war???
    It's hardly a new thing, that's what happened in Korea and to a lesser extent Vietnam. I don't think it will happen though overtly like that. What I suspect will happen is NATO countries will start supplying weapons to Ukraine. Some special forces units might also get involved in advisory / combat assistance type roles (that wouldn't be publicized though, again, nothing new).
    Neither of those wars involved direct confrontation between nuclear powers, particularly a direct confrontation with Russia/USSR. That is the big thing holding back any direct military aid to Ukraine. A shooting war between major powers has not occurred since WWII.

    What's happening now is Putin can block any resolution from the UN so he can do a slow escalation with a litany of denials and excuses that always leaves the West with not enough to diplomatically justify a full intervention. It will be interesting to see how far Putin can push given how masterful he's been so far.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  25. #325

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Based on the information from the shooting down of the Malaysia air airliner our CF-18s would be just fine.
    Ukraine SU 24s, 25s and MIG29s have been shot down by Russian SAMs, I don't think our CF18s which are similar size would do any better unless those SAMs were taken out or jammed. Nothing that isn't stealth can fly in this area right now, this is why it's full of tanks and armoured vehicles (which are easy to knock out with air power).

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...est_in_Ukraine
    The CF-18s that received the last modernization program have more sophisticated systems than any of the aircraft you listed as well as active missile defensive systems.

    As does most of the fighters in Western Europe.

    More than adequate to deal with the current threat level.

    That said it still doesn't make sense for Canada to send airpower when there is so much on the ground there with NATO.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  26. #326

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    What's happening now is Putin can block any resolution from the UN so he can do a slow escalation with a litany of denials and excuses that always leaves the West with not enough to diplomatically justify a full intervention. It will be interesting to see how far Putin can push given how masterful he's been so far.
    Good assessment.

    Putin is not likely to stop until a show of force is made...hopefully that doesn't result in combat.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  27. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I don't think our cf18s could safely operate there given the Sams, unless they are taken out first. It requires stealth aircraft or drones, or some Growlers to provide jamming.
    Based on the information from the shooting down of the Malaysia air airliner our CF-18s would be just fine.

    But with the few we could send they would essentially be irrelevant.

    Better to call on NATO and use the European Air assets, more numbers, can get there quicker and be just as effective.

    In my highly biased personal opinion
    I believe we already have six CF-18s in Poland as part of the NATO group monitoring Ukraine. Any call on NATO could include our assets already there which may be why Canada is included in Ukraine's appeal.
    That exercise recently ended according to the RCAF I newsletter I receive on line...but even if they have not left yet.

    (6) CF-18s is not a difference, its a political play and a pretty shallow one when compared to the NATO/EU assets available, which is the point I was trying to make.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  28. #328
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    So why is it not acceptable to just assassinate the son of a biatch.

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^but those LNG terminals are years away, and winter is around the corner. Unlike Mugabe, Europe needs Russia as much as Russia needs Europe. It's like a game of Chicken, if Europe stopped importing gas from Russia, Russia would soon be bankrupt (as will be years before their pipelines reach China), but in the meantime, Europe will be devastated by output reductions as well, high gas prices or shortages would devastate their power generation and industrial output, their economies already have ten percent unemployment.
    Agreed, years away. But just a shovel in the ground is a massive hit on the shaky Russian economy.

    Corruption, once seriously challenged falls apart surprisingly quickly.

    And it's not just Europe. The rest of us need to pony up as well.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    So why is it not acceptable to just assassinate the son of a biatch.
    that's a bit excessive....

    a slow move away from Russian Natural gas will hit him and his cronies financially, too bad its the people (of Russia, Ukraine and probably Poland eventually) that have to suffer. I enjoy how China basically bent them over a barrel in their latest natural gas contract.

    what am I saying though, this is all western capitalist propaganda,The Russians are really the good guys. goddamn western powers always ganging up on peace loving Russia, its pretty sickening.
    be offended! figure out why later...

  31. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    looks like Russia is stirring the pot again.

    seriously history is gonna look back and see This version of Russia as the greatest troll the world has ever seen. they are lucky that the UN and the EU are spineless.

    also remember that plane that got shot down? how come nobody cares about that anymore?
    Disgusting, right? The thing that really gets me is that most western countries are happy to drop some bombs on Islamic extremists, but they're not doing a a damn thing to help stop an actual, real war, because Ukraine is not in NATO. I don't think any of the Middle East is in NATO, yet for some reason there's always a lot of western military over there...

    Ukraine needs help, and the rest of the world should step up. 100,000 western soldiers could easily vacation in Ukraine, just like those Russian soldiers
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    looks like Russia is stirring the pot again.

    seriously history is gonna look back and see This version of Russia as the greatest troll the world has ever seen. they are lucky that the UN and the EU are spineless.

    also remember that plane that got shot down? how come nobody cares about that anymore?
    Disgusting, right? The thing that really gets me is that most western countries are happy to drop some bombs on Islamic extremists, but they're not doing a a damn thing to help stop an actual, real war, because Ukraine is not in NATO. I don't think any of the Middle East is in NATO, yet for some reason there's always a lot of western military over there...

    Ukraine needs help, and the rest of the world should step up. 100,000 western soldiers could easily vacation in Ukraine, just like those Russian soldiers
    Up until this week Ukraine has not requested any direct military aid. Current military actions ISIS are at the direct request if the Iraqi government. While their are exceptions, boots on the ground assistance typically requires permission from the state being assisted.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  33. #333

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    ^Touche. Now that Ukraine is asking for aid, I would like to see that request go fulfilled. Ukraine would have been a NATO member if not for a corrupt government put in place by Russia, which has now been thrown out by the people.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  34. #334
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    Looks like NATO is prepping.

    Canada looks to join NATO force of 10,000 troops meant to keep Russia in check

    Based on this we will have 4 CF-18's operational in Lithuania with NATO next week and we have already sent over 500 military personnel to Europe (which explains where one of my friends has disappeared to this summer).

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  35. #335

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    Russia or to be exact Putin only understands real military force and sanctions. So far it's been mostly talk and few effective punitive measures from the West.

    I've been to both countries and the common people never want war. The Russians and Ukrainians co-existed in Ukraine for a long time peacefully.

  36. #336

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    Mindless cheering on the way to nuclear war.

  37. #337
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    /\AShetson has it absolutely right.
    I can't believe there are people on this forum discussing the survivability of our CF18's on what would essentially be a war with Russia. Are we out of our minds?
    We are talking about Russia, they are as well educated, and as well armed as we are. Their leadership is far more ruthless and their society is used to massive sacrifice, far more than what we would ever accept.
    In January and February of 1942 20,000 people per day were starving to death in Leningrad and in total the Russians lost 25 million people in WW2.
    This is still fresh in their minds. They will NEVER allow Ukraine into NATO. To them it would be worse than the US allowing missiles in Cuba.
    We may as well accept that before a million people are dead.

  38. #338

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    An overwhelming amount of Ukraine do not want war. There have been numerous protests in Kiev against sending more troops into eastern Ukraine. Ukraine is now( not sure when they started)drafting young men to fight in war! In one instance they drafted a whole factory of unionized workers.

    Interesting how a week ago Ukraine captured 9 Russians? In a trade with Russia 63 pow ukraine for 9 Russians.that is one whack trade? But how does Russia have 63pow? Ukraine and the west claim more then 1000 Russians in Ukraine but they can't seem to capture any? Let me guess Ukraine only had 63 "servicemen" in Russia and 100% got captured??? Russia must be good.

    The rebels in east Ukraine are fighting for rights, and with their hearts, no drafted civilians will ever fair in bloodshed under these conditions. As long as Kiev wants to take away the easts rights ( look how they arrested many of the communist party of Ukraine and abolished the party for the sake of Ukraine; can't have that kind of opposition in a democratic Ukraine)and say as citizens this war will never end.

  39. #339

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    An interesting take from a university professor! Everything the USA is involved in is for oil and war lol.

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?...&jumival=12186

  40. #340
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    i dont think anyone expects it to go to war with Russia. most likely Nato will dilly-dadle, Russia will get bored and our attention will turn to the next crisis.

    this being said it sets a dangerous precedence to allow RUssia to basically to whatever they want whenever they want.
    Imagine if the US annexed parts of Mexico, people would be burning American flags on the goddamn moon!
    be offended! figure out why later...

  41. #341

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    ^Nothing has ever stopped "the Western allies" (god, I hate that term -- it's long past time for Canada to leave NATO, not that it ever will) from bombing and invading whatever the hell place they have wanted. Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Grenada, Panama... And when they didn't, creating the very enemies the headlines always scream about. The Taliban, this ISIS thing...

    I leave aside overthrowing governments at will, and only occasionally having it reversed. No one cares about that.

    Worrying about dangerous precedents is hypocritical.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 31-08-2014 at 01:00 PM.

  42. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    this being said it sets a dangerous precedence to allow RUssia to basically to whatever they want whenever they want.
    Imagine if the US annexed parts of Mexico, people would be burning American flags on the goddamn moon!
    You mean like invading Iraq and getting US oil companies nice, fat contracts to pump oil? Nah, that would never happen.

  43. #343

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    Great now the talk of using nukes is apparently being tossed around

    http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-t...nister-267842?

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    ^Nothing has ever stopped "the Western allies" (god, I hate that term -- it's long past time for Canada to leave NATO, not that it ever will) from bombing and invading whatever the hell place they have wanted. Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Grenada, Panama... And when they didn't, creating the very enemies the headlines always scream about. The Taliban, this ISIS thing...

    I leave aside overthrowing governments at will, and only occasionally having it reversed. No one cares about that.

    Worrying about dangerous precedents is hypocritical.
    Supporting Russia based on NATO's past actions is odd considering the history of Eastern Europe. Russia occupied and/or took over Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Finland, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Bulgaria, Albania, and Afghanistan, not to mention all the central Asian nations they flat out absorbed and their support for North Korea. Since 1992 we have wars in Moldova, Ossetia, Tajikistan, Georgia, and Chechnya.

    It's also odd to state the West's interest in the Ukraine is based on oil and gas when that's pretty much Russia's interest as well. Russia's economy is dependent on gas shipments to Europe to the point they are funding anti-frakking groups in Europe to prevent Europe from lowering its dependence on Russian gas. Of course I doubt the Russian oil and gas companies will avoid frakking when their fields start to get thin.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  45. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Of course I doubt the Russian oil and gas companies will avoid frakking when their fields start to get thin.
    Its similar to how they are pushing regional autonomy in Ukraine for regions dominated by Russian speakers, but are adamatley opposed to any autonomy for regions with Russia (one of the first things Putin did was remove elections for local leaders). Siberia is a good example, Russia is terrified of more autonomy there, even seeking to limit what the BBC can publish:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28659407
    Last edited by moahunter; 03-09-2014 at 09:56 AM.

  46. #346

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    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...he-wests-fault

    Interesting look at why this is happening in the first place.

    Personally i agree with a lot of it... i don't quite remember where i read it but there was an article a while back that was explaining how Russia has been spurred by the "west" for 10 years now on a whole bunch of issues including a Northern Hemisphere Free trade and open borders partnership and whatnot. Its not that surprising that they are trying to protect their perceived interests when the "west" has no intention of greater economic and social ties with Russia.

  47. #347

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    ^The big mistake the Ukraine made was giving up its nuclear arsenal in return for border assurances by NATO and the West. Very, very, dumb. None of this would be happening if Ukraine has some tactical and/or strategic nuclear weapons. Russians tend to think of the former soviet republics as their "colonies" that "they invested in", so anytime they head west, it feels like a "theft". For example, Baltic countries received the best education support under the former soviet regime, as they were seen as great places for science and similar. However, this ignores how these countries would have done, had they not been part of the USSR (i.e. look at Western Europe).
    Last edited by moahunter; 03-09-2014 at 12:41 PM.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himser View Post
    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...he-wests-fault

    Interesting look at why this is happening in the first place.

    Personally i agree with a lot of it... i don't quite remember where i read it but there was an article a while back that was explaining how Russia has been spurred by the "west" for 10 years now on a whole bunch of issues including a Northern Hemisphere Free trade and open borders partnership and whatnot. Its not that surprising that they are trying to protect their perceived interests when the "west" has no intention of greater economic and social ties with Russia.
    It's a good analysis. The one quibble I would have with his solution is that I doubt the rebels would stand down if Russia asked them to.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  49. #349

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    Putin Seen Waging Ukraine Shadow War Until Veto Assured - Bloomberg
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...o-assured.html

  50. #350

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    yeah, what's the worst that could happen?

    Former Canadian diplomat James Bissett warns that Canada is running the risk of getting entangled with fascist groups in Ukraine.

    “They’re still marching up and down Kyiv with torch-light parades and a fabricated form of a Swastika,” said Bissett, Canada’s former ambassador to Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania, who also lived in Russia for five years. “What has been ignored in Canada is the role the far right is playing in today’s Ukraine.”

    Opposition MPs say it’s time for safeguards to ensure Canadian-supplied equipment, as well as any monetary support, doesn’t end up in the wrong hands.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09...ition-mps-say/

  51. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himser View Post
    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...he-wests-fault

    Interesting look at why this is happening in the first place.

    Personally i agree with a lot of it... i don't quite remember where i read it but there was an article a while back that was explaining how Russia has been spurred by the "west" for 10 years now on a whole bunch of issues including a Northern Hemisphere Free trade and open borders partnership and whatnot. Its not that surprising that they are trying to protect their perceived interests when the "west" has no intention of greater economic and social ties with Russia.
    The article was patronizing and a whitewash of post-Cold War history.

    The author's conclusion that Western countries should "switch gears and work to create a prosperous and neutral Ukraine" was most telling.

    It should be up to Ukrainians themselves to determine their own future, not the West or Russia.

    The whole NATO encirclement argument presupposes this was some sort of Western plot, rather than the former Eastern Bloc and former Soviet Republics making the understandable decision to seek to join a mutual defence alliance (NATO) in order to forestall future Russian aggression.

    Nor are the interests of the West in some sort of permanent conflict with those of Russia. In the mind of Putin perhaps but not in reality.

  52. #352

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    If that's the case, why are we (the west) arming one side over the other? If Russia was supporting the government would you want us to arm the rebels?

  53. #353

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    Some things never change...

    Canadian fighter jets intercept Russian bombers in Arctic - Canada - CBC News
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadi...ctic-1.2772440

  54. #354

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    The Russians have been doing that for decades, same as the Americas do it to them and China.

  55. #355

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    Ukraine crisis: Tanks 'cross border' from Russia

    excerpt:
    "If confirmed, the cross-border incursion will be a further blow to the shaky ceasefire agreed in September, says the BBC's David Stern in Kiev."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29952505

  56. #356
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    The "ceasefire" is a hilarious term considering how many shots and rockets have been fired during the time.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  57. #357

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    Its a neat form of warfare. Somewhat like Europeans taking over North America by just moving in.

  58. #358

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    "I guess I'll shake your hand, but I only have only one thing to say to you. You need to get out of Ukraine".

    Like Harper or not, he made me proud to be Canadian today. Harper had the guts to do what the Australian PM said he would do, and didn't (shirtfront):

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-putin-instead

    http://www.businessinsider.com.au/st...nt-g20-2014-11
    Last edited by moahunter; 15-11-2014 at 05:45 AM.

  59. #359
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    ^by chance did you see those faked pictures of a fighter jet shooting down that Malaysian airline flight? So obviously fake but Russian media were running with it.

    Showed some era mig photoshopped onto an old Google earth scan with (bad) photoshop of an airliner in. Will try to find the link.
    be offended! figure out why later...

  60. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    "I guess I'll shake your hand, but I only have only one thing to say to you. You need to get out of Ukraine".

    Like Harper or not, he made me proud to be Canadian today. Harper had the guts to do what the Australian PM said he would do, and didn't (shirtfront):
    Guts? LOL. Yes, Mr. "hide in a closet" is just the manliest man who ever manned.

  61. #361

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    ^As far as international politics and chatter goes between leaders... it was pretty off-the-cuff to say something as bold as that. Personal opinions of the PM aside, it was a solid remark by Canada's leader. Manliness has nothing to do with this, and if you're looking for macho-ism, Putin's your man. I mean this in know way as a dig to anyone, by the way, just wanted to clarify for the forum has gotten nasty lately.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  62. #362

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    A gesture designed to make Harper look like a tough talker without really accomplishing anything. Or are you expecting Putin will now turn tail and run back to Moscow, suitably chastised?

  63. #363

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    Taking the fight to foreign shores?...

    Ahead of G20, Russian warships make show of force near Australia
    STEVEN CHASE, AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND — The Globe and Mail, Nov. 13 2014, 10:22 PM EST


    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle21583769/

  64. #364

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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    "I guess I'll shake your hand, but I only have only one thing to say to you. You need to get out of Ukraine".

    Like Harper or not, he made me proud to be Canadian today. Harper had the guts to do what the Australian PM said he would do, and didn't (shirtfront):
    Guts? LOL. Yes, Mr. "hide in a closet" is just the manliest man who ever manned.
    Are you suggesting Harper is gay? It might explain why this government has stood up more for gay rights internationally than any other Canadian government, and appointed a prominent gay foreign minister. If so, it doesn't make him any less of a man despite your prejudiced suggestion otherwise, his personal life is his personal life. I'm still proud of what he said, and other countries media have been applauding it, a study on how you stand up to a bully.

  65. #365
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    Anyone else think Putin suffers from "Napolean complex"?
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  66. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    "I guess I'll shake your hand, but I only have only one thing to say to you. You need to get out of Ukraine".

    Like Harper or not, he made me proud to be Canadian today. Harper had the guts to do what the Australian PM said he would do, and didn't (shirtfront):
    Guts? LOL. Yes, Mr. "hide in a closet" is just the manliest man who ever manned.
    Are you suggesting Harper is gay? It might explain why this government has stood up more for gay rights internationally than any other Canadian government, and appointed a prominent gay foreign minister. If so, it doesn't make him any less of a man despite your prejudiced suggestion otherwise, his personal life is his personal life. I'm still proud of what he said, and other countries media have been applauding it, a study on how you stand up to a bully.
    Nice rant, but completely off the mark.

    Prime Minister Stephen Harper told his hushed caucus Wednesday morning he felt remorse for surreptitiously ducking into a closet during last week's assault on Parliament Hill, CBC News has learned.

  67. #367

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I'm still proud of what he said, and other countries media have been applauding it, a study on how you stand up to a bully.
    I'd be applauding him too if he hadn't supported a much larger, unwarranted invasion of a foreign country and then written a public letter in an American newspaper calling out his own country for refusing to follow along. He's simply looking to score meaningless brownie points for an empty gesture.

  68. #368

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I'm still proud of what he said, and other countries media have been applauding it, a study on how you stand up to a bully.
    The media applauded Neville Chamberlain too...

    Pretty easy to stand up to a bully when you are in the classroom with all your friends around.

    Meeting Putin in an alley might be the scariest person you would ever want to meet. He probably knows more ways to kill you than any other. Putin must have thought that Harper was about as scary as a moth.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 17-11-2014 at 06:35 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  69. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ...Pretty easy to stand up to a bully when you are in the classroom with all your friends around.
    I believe this is the point.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  70. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I'm still proud of what he said, and other countries media have been applauding it, a study on how you stand up to a bully.
    The media applauded Neville Chamberlain too...

    Pretty easy to stand up to a bully when you are in the classroom with all your friends around.

    Meeting Putin in an alley might be the scariest person you would ever want to meet. He probably knows more ways to kill you than any other. Putin must have thought that Harper was about as scary as a moth.
    One would even be wary of eating and drinking after having given the guy the evil eye.


    Russia's Polonium Widow
    Marina Litvinenko thinks her husband was poisoned in London by the Kremlin's agents. This week Britain reopened the case.
    By SOHRAB AHMARI CONNECT
    July 25, 2014

    "Take British Prime Minister David Cameron's coalition government. "They put good relations with Russia in top priority," she says. "But the Russians have been trained in a different way. They're not from Oxford, or from Cambridge. They've got a different agenda. They've been trained by the KGB . . . . Every time you cede more, they will try to catch you in a weaker position. If you say, 'Excuse me, I did something wrong,' they don't appreciate it—they say, 'OK, now I will make it worse for you.' ""

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/sohra...dow-1406329263

  71. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    A gesture designed to make Harper look like a tough talker without really accomplishing anything. Or are you expecting Putin will now turn tail and run back to Moscow, suitably chastised?
    Fact is, Putin did leave the summit early, because of the constant hostility he was facing from other leaders. The whole thing was a PR disaster for him, even if the press at home won't actually report on it.

  72. #372

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    And that is going to change the situation in Ukraine how exactly? He may have left early but I doubt he was chastised.

  73. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    And that is going to change the situation in Ukraine how exactly? He may have left early but I doubt he was chastised.
    How would you hurt him? His actions have lead to thousands of deaths, and misery for millions, but he is still the leader or Russia. We can't shoot him, but we don't have to be friendly or civil with him, that's the balance Harper struck, and I applaude it. If it had been Trudeau, who he has said how much he admiers dictators, I guess he would asked for an autograph. I know which approach I prefer.

  74. #374

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    Any chance to get a jab in on Trudeau, eh moa?

    We get it, you've got a hate hard on for Trudeau. Time to sing another song...
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  75. #375
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    Derogatory speculation about how another leader would or wouldn't have handled it is irrelevant. Frankly I'm the polar opposite of a Harper fan but his actions here are appropriate. At this stage it needs to be made clear to Russia that it's behaviour, whether regarding Ukraine or it's military posturing worldwide, are not acceptable. That process includes treatment at world summits as well as the economic sanctions underway right now.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  76. #376

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    Except Harper had no problem with the second Iraq War and threw a hissy fit when we didn't go along with it. Comparatively, what's happening in eastern Ukraine is small potatoes.

  77. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Except Harper had no problem with the second Iraq War and threw a hissy fit when we didn't go along with it. Comparatively, what's happening in eastern Ukraine is small potatoes.
    Comparatively what is happening with Russia in general has the potential to be a whole potato farm. Russia is militarily moving back to the Soviet era with air probes in the arctic, bomber patrols in the Caribbean, strong ties to China, and a military push in Eastern Europe. Ukraine is one move in a larger game.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  78. #378

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    Interesting article...

    Putin’s World: Why Russia’s Showdown with the West Will Worsen
    November 17, 2014

    http://www.institutionalinvestor.com...l#.VG13fkdHaK0

  79. #379

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Except Harper had no problem with the second Iraq War and threw a hissy fit when we didn't go along with it. Comparatively, what's happening in eastern Ukraine is small potatoes.
    Comparatively what is happening with Russia in general has the potential to be a whole potato farm. Russia is militarily moving back to the Soviet era with air probes in the arctic, bomber patrols in the Caribbean, strong ties to China, and a military push in Eastern Europe. Ukraine is one move in a larger game.
    So he's moving a teensy bit closer to the American military position in the world.

    No doubt that Putin's a bully but short of all out war, sanctions are about as far as we can go.

  80. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.
    Turkey is a full member of NATO with an active military four times the size of Ukraine's. Also, Russia can't claim to the be defending Russian speakers/citizens the way they can with Georgia and Ukraine. Not going to happen.
    However it can sure stir things up...

    Russian fighters Russian ships, Chinese ships...


    NATO denounces Russian incursion into Turkish airspace
    ISTANBUL | BY AYLA JEAN YACKLEY AND HUMEYRA

    The United States and NATO denounced Russia on Monday for violating Turkish airspace and Ankara threatened to respond, reporting two incursions in two days and raising the prospect of direct confrontation between the former Cold War adversaries.

    NATO held an emergency meeting in Brussels of ambassadors from its 28 member states to respond to what Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg called "unacceptable violations of Turkish airspace" after a Russian jet crossed...


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RZ0FT20151005

    Chinese troops to join Russian marines in Syria soon, says report

    http://www.ibtimes.co.in/chinese-tro...-report-648246


    U.S. vs. Russia: What a war would look like between the world's most fearsome militaries

    "Yet some see Putin's maneuvers in Syria as some broader geopolitical gambit that aims to secure a deal on Ukraine. Russia currently occupies parts of Ukraine, but the U.S. still considers Moscow's March 2014 invasion illegal and its control there illegitimate. "It's much more about the U.S. than it is about Syria and Assad," Galeotti said. "Let's be honest, if Washington indicated that some deal could be struck where they tacitly accept the Russians' position in Crimea and parts of Donbas, they are not going to fight a war for Assad.

    The conflict in Ukraine and the American training mission there is giving the Pentagon fresh insight on an enemy they might fight elsewhere in the not-too-distant future. But critics say America's timid response to Russian aggression — both in Crimea and the the Donetsk and Luhansk regions — has done little to deter Moscow. In Ukraine Russia has revealed a new brand of "hybrid warfare," one that mixes non-state proxy fighters, heavy armor and artillery, drones, electronic warfare and aggressive information operations to achieve battlefield victories. ...


    That has sparked concern in the West that Putin's ultimate goal is to break NATO with force, if intimidation fails. NATO is struggling to figure out how to respond, with member nations holding differing perspectives on when Russian behavior crosses a red line. It's about...


    http://www.militarytimes.com/story/m...lans/73147344/


    Note:
    Interesting how quiet this thread became over the last year...
    Last edited by KC; 05-10-2015 at 06:53 PM.

  81. #381

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    ^Putin has moved on to Syria, where he can more directly offend Nato (i.e. Turkey).

  82. #382

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    NATO rejects Russia explanation on Turkish air space
    Excerpt:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he will not put ground forces in Syria, where the civil war has killed 250,000 people. However, Stoltenberg said there was a growing presence of Russian forces in Syria.

    "I can confirm that we have seen a substantial build-up of Russian forces in Syria: air forces, air defenses, but also ground troops in connection with the air base they have, and we also see an increased naval presence," Stoltenberg said.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0S01DS20151006
    Last edited by KC; 06-10-2015 at 11:17 AM.

  83. #383

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    Note the source of the article... (It's an old, old playbook. Bush used it to script the justification for going into IRAQ.)


    Putin: Russia will not tolerate such crimes as attack against its Sukhoi-24 plane

    Russian Politics & Diplomacy November 24, 15:53 UTC+3
    According to the president, the attack against Su-24 plane in Syria goes beyond normal struggle against terrorism, and it is "a stab in Russia’s back" delivered by "terrorism accomplices"

    "Today’s loss is linked with a stab in our back delivered by terrorism accomplices. I can’t characterize otherwise what has happened today," the Russian leader said. ..."

    http://tass.ru/en/politics/838825
    Turkey isn't a unified homogeneous entity. So, slice off just a wee bit of Turkey...
    Last edited by KC; 24-11-2015 at 08:15 AM.

  84. #384
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    Russia is not going to start a war, hybrid or conventional, with Turkey. Turkey on it's own could fight Russia to a standstill in it's own backyard, it has a large and sophisticated military. To say nothing of it being a full NATO member. The downing of the Russian plane is definitely a serious incident. But both sides have every reason to avoid further escalating things.

  85. #385

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    You're probably right, but Russia didn't go to war with Ukraine either.


    Putin Has Misjudged Turkey's Erdogan
    http://www.bloombergview.com/article...rkey-s-erdogan


    In time for winter...

    Russia to halt gas supplies to Ukraine over Crimea blackout - The Globe and Mail
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle27450065/
    Last edited by KC; 24-11-2015 at 09:44 AM.

  86. #386
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    Was Ukraine a full NATO member? Did Ukraine have a military worth a crap? Is Turkey a former Soviet state that spent most of the past 70 years under Russian control?

    There are virtually no parallels between the two, as hard as you might try to find them. And I specifically said "hybrid war", which is exactly what Russia has conducted in Ukraine, Crimea, and to a lesser extent Georgia and Chechnya.

  87. #387

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    ^Turkey has been repeatedly under-estimated militiarily over the years. Just think back to Churchills foolsih plan at Gallipoli. Russia would be insane to attack a NATO member, Putin is going to huff, and puff, and blow, but that's all he can do. The more interesting sub-plot here is that Putin is bombing rebels, on behalf of Asad, who are allied to Turkey just across that border. Turkey was, I think, hoping for an opportunity to do some damage to that mission.

  88. #388

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    Yeah apparently 90% of the targets Russia has hit were rebel sites and only 10% were ISIS sites.

    Russia wants either more shipping or naval access or naval control in the Mediterranean via its port in Syria (Tatras?) so it seems that it's going to play a big role in Syria's future to protect its interests.

    Now that Russia's navy is also interested in a Cyprus port is interesting. Is it hedging or is it expansionism?

  89. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^Turkey has been repeatedly under-estimated militiarily over the years. Just think back to Churchills foolsih plan at Gallipoli. Russia would be insane to attack a NATO member, Putin is going to huff, and puff, and blow, but that's all he can do. The more interesting sub-plot here is that Putin is bombing rebels, on behalf of Asad, who are allied to Turkey just across that border. Turkey was, I think, hoping for an opportunity to do some damage to that mission.
    True. Though Russia is likely to exact some economic revenge via it's energy supplies. This though could end up being a case of Russia cutting off it's nose to spite it's face with energy prices being in the toilet at present.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  90. #390
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    I know that borders are difficult to mess with, but I wonder if turkey could possibly be convinced to give up some ground to an actual kurdish state in exchange for the turkic areas in northern Syria that they're defending. That would leave smaller syrian and Iraqi states that might be a bit more governable.

  91. #391

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I know that borders are difficult to mess with, but I wonder if turkey could possibly be convinced to give up some ground to an actual kurdish state in exchange for the turkic areas in northern Syria that they're defending. That would leave smaller syrian and Iraqi states that might be a bit more governable.
    "convinced"

    Militarily maybe? Attempts at which seem to have been going on throughout the region for a few decades now.


    Actually the whole middle east has needed a redrawing since the Brits/US/ etc since screwed it up in the first place.

  92. #392
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    Turkey won't give one inch to Kurds unless forced at gunpoint. Turkey's stance towards the Kurds can only be described (at the very best) as "cautiously genocidal".

  93. #393
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    ^ I have a feeling the Kurdish fighters in or near Turkey may come to possession of some russian made weapons-similar to those in possession of those separatists in the east of Ukraine...

  94. #394

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    ^no the Kurds are allied with the US, and also with us, our special forces are operating with them (including acting as spotters for our CF18 strikes). They are getting plenty of weapons.

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    There are way too many sides in this war.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  96. #396

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    Russia’s grand strategy: How Putin is using Syria conflict to turn Turkey into Moscow’s proxy

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/10/rus...moscows-proxy/

  97. #397

    Default

    U.N. Security Council Calls Meeting Over Russia, Ukraine | Time

    http://time.com/5462996/russia-ukrai...eeting-called/




    Ukraine President proposes martial law after Russia seizes navy ships - The Globe and Mail

    The Ukrainian navy left little ambiguity in asserting that its ships had been attacked. “Fighter jets used weapons against the naval ships of the armed forces of Ukraine,” the navy’s statement said.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...g-sea-of-azov/

  98. #398
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    ^ interesting tactic by the facist Ukraninaian president to try and get support for himself, he is losing in the polls and can now institute marshall law and cancel the election. I guess the people who didn't support his illegal coup are getting fed up with his Nazi loving government.
    you missed when time and life shook hands and said goodbye.

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