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Thread: Russia escalates tensions in Ukraine by occupying

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    Default Russia escalates tensions in Ukraine by occupying

    I'm catching from my hospital TV that the Russian Federation is now occupying the Crimean Peninsula


    This is not good...
    Ow

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    Brutal... Been following this since November...

    For excellent info follow @maximeristavi on twitter

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    Just to add, I'm intrigued as to what the International Community's response will be... Putin is the most corrupt man on the world(if not, he's damn close), when will he be held to task for his actions?

    We all know Russia has a major military base at its only warm-water port in Crimea, however that is NO excuse for invading another country's borders and violating the Budapest Agreement
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    Not unexpected given Russia's long history with the Ukraine but very troubling nonetheless. Hopefully this will not lead to violence or conflict.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

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    Just a note: There is no "the" in Ukraine. It's a common error.
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    I have faith that the UN will handle this, their record is excellent in these type of situations.

    /s
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    I think if the Olympics had not have been in Russia Putin would have stepped in sooner. He was waiting for the Olympics to be over to make his move.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    I have faith that the UN will handle this, their record is excellent in these type of situations.

    /s
    The UN has done a lot of good. There are many places in the world you would be far more familiar with if the UN didn't exist to help keep the tensions down and/or step in-between combatants. What the UN is not, is a cure-all, they facilitate deescalation but ultimately the people involved have to solve their own problems.

    That said, in this case the UN can do nothing because Russia has a veto on the security council. The UN can not act within the direct spheres of any of the permanent Security Council members, they are expected to take care of their own houses. Even after independence in 1992, Ukraine has always been in Russia's house and if you want to know what happens when you try to leave Russia's house take a look at Georgia.

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    Russian parliament OKs Putin's request to use military force in Ukraine

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Looking like Putin's dream of the rise of the Great Bear has started.

    I hope the west is firm but would reek of hypocrisy after [insert war of the decade here].

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    I'm a Canadian Ukrainian...I'm going back to the home country to defend her from the Russian Bear...who's with me

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    Just a note: There is no "the" in Ukraine. It's a common error.
    An early comic which was scanned at 1 bit:



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    Obama has warned Russia that doing just this would come with consequences…

    I just heard a news report saying the U.S military has launched a few ''intelligence'' aircraft into the area to ''monitor'' Russian Activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Knuckles View Post
    I'm a Canadian Ukrainian...I'm going back to the home country to defend her from the Russian Bear...who's with me
    I wish you well but at the end of the day it's not the Russian people it's the Russian government that is the problem. Too much bloodshed for one person's power trip. Hopefully it does not come down to this and when you do go back to visit it will be in more peaceful times.
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    The Europeans don't want to get involved here for a couple of reasons:

    1. Economic ties to Russia, esp. Oil and gas
    2. Ukraine is a basket case economy they don't want to have to bail out.

    The US is reluctant as Obama doesn't want to be responsible for another military engagement.

    In an interesting way, with the strong historical ties canada has to Ukraine, canada could actually play a meaningful role, I'd be ok if we sent some forces to assist the Ukrainians maintain heir sovereignty. Some CF18s, or jsfII elite troop for example. Longer term it could help build some economic ties for us with Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Knuckles View Post
    I'm a Canadian Ukrainian...I'm going back to the home country to defend her from the Russian Bear...who's with me
    I wish you well but at the end of the day it's not the Russian people it's the Russian government that is the problem. Too much bloodshed for one person's power trip. Hopefully it does not come down to this and when you do go back to visit it will be in more peaceful times.

    I was joking....

    But you're right....The Russian government is the problem. But I guess the puppet Ukrainian Government that was in power last week was the problem also!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    The Europeans don't want to get involved here for a couple of reasons:

    1. Economic ties to Russia, esp. Oil and gas
    2. Ukraine is a basket case economy they don't want to have to bail out.

    The US is reluctant as Obama doesn't want to be responsible for another military engagement.

    In an interesting way, with the strong historical ties canada has to Ukraine, canada could actually play a meaningful role, I'd be ok if we sent some forces to assist the Ukrainians maintain heir sovereignty. Some CF18s, or jsfII elite troop for example. Longer term it could help build some economic ties for us with Ukraine.
    Likewise re: Canadian support.

    Regarding o&g... The real issue lies bin that Ukraine has some capability to "turn the Russian taps off" in the supply of gas to European countries. They are strategically placed and a key tie between Europe and Russia
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    The Europeans don't want to get involved here for a couple of reasons:

    1. Economic ties to Russia, esp. Oil and gas
    2. Ukraine is a basket case economy they don't want to have to bail out.

    The US is reluctant as Obama doesn't want to be responsible for another military engagement.

    In an interesting way, with the strong historical ties canada has to Ukraine, canada could actually play a meaningful role, I'd be ok if we sent some forces to assist the Ukrainians maintain heir sovereignty. Some CF18s, or jsfII elite troop for example. Longer term it could help build some economic ties for us with Ukraine.
    Canuck forces vs Russian.....let's get real Moa

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    This is not hockey

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    The US is reluctant as Obama doesn't want to be responsible for another military engagement.
    Im sorry. But what the actual frack are you talking about it was BUSH that brought the US into a military engagement after they were attacked by bin ladden. Obama came into power and had to deal with the fall out of that so don't pin this crap on him.

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    ^ I think all he's is saying is that Obama does not want the Americans to be engaged in another war so soon after the Middle East conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Plus the US is still in a financial quagmire and cutting back on military expenditures. Unfortunately Putin knows this and is likely why he feels confident enough to start a war with Ukraine.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Canuck forces vs Russian.....let's get real Moa
    Ukraine has a large, albeit it poorly equiped (due to lack of funds) forces. I think Canadian could play a useful role, for example, JSFII forces as advisors / special missions. For all we know, they might already be on the way there (they were deployed in Afghanistan without the PM knowing under the Liberal government, although I expect that's changed now). It seems France, Canada and the US are having discussions, I could see a French lead force with some Canadian involvement. The CF18's would slot in nicely as well, ukranie still has a number of aircraft, especially though if France gets involved. I don't think it will end up a war, but I could see us playing a role of some sort.
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-03-2014 at 11:20 PM.

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    I think that the western nations can place economic sanctions on Russia.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    ^sanctions do squat, just look at the human rights situation in North Korea, Iran or Cuba. Furthermore, Russia is like China, its such a large part of the world economy now, that they can get away with pretty much anything human rights related, without reprimand. The big risk now is that Russia could basically partician Ukraine, by moving into Eastern cities that have large Russian speaking populations. They will be ecouraging / funding unrest in those cities, to justify such action.

    The Crimea is probably Russian now (it was gifted to the Ukraine by the Soviet Union), but it would be terrible for Ukraine if it lost some of the large cities in the East, even harder then to be an economically viable country.
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-03-2014 at 11:47 PM.

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    The reality the U.S. and the West in general aren't getting is there is nothing substantive they can do here beyond offering covert logistical support to the Ukrainian opposition. Putin has all the power here and based on past behaviour, unless he can reinstall a tame government I would bet Ukraine ends up partitioned into a Russian east and a Ukrainian west.

    As side note, if things did escalate between the U.S. and Russia I wonder how they'll handle all the NASA personnel in Russia supporting the ISS missions and the two Americans on the ISS currently?

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    Are the activities of the Russians in Ukraine a violation of International Law?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Are the activities of the Russians in Ukraine a violation of International Law?
    Yes, the Budapest Agreement, basically Ukraine used to be the third most powerful nuclear power, in return for surrendering all nuclear arms, Ukraine, Russia, UK and USA signed that Ukraine's borders and sovereignty would be respected, and protected.

    That's why US and UK should have involvement in honouring their part in the agreement. I'm not sure on all of the details however...
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    Putin's a snake. What did it take... all of 48 hours after the Sochi Winter Olympics for him to pull this stunt?

    50 billion less to put into his military machine.

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    There's talk that Russia could be kicked out of the G8 if Russia escalates the conflict.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I would bet Ukraine ends up partitioned into a Russian east and a Ukrainian west.
    That would be devastating for Ukraine though and a huge win for Russia, as most of Ukraine industry and all the coal mines are in the east. I think the new Ukraine government would rather go to war than accept this. Keep in mind Russia had a terrible time just invading Georgia which is a tiny country compared to Ukraine, I'm not sure how motivated Russian soldiers (many are conscripts) would be once people start dieing, whereas the Ukrainians would be fighting for their homeland.
    Last edited by moahunter; 02-03-2014 at 07:36 PM.

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    ^And who wants to see another version of the Berlin Wall being erected. That's what would happen, if not a physical wall a invisible barrier.
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    ^my bet is we will get a solution that saves enough face for Putin. For example, he won't go against eastern Ukraine and will stop destabilizing it, and in return, the people of Crimea will be allowed to vote on their independence / or even joining Russia.

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    If Ukraine had joined NATO when it had the chance, they likely would be protected from this current aggression.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    About 60% of the population of Crimea is Russian. If they do get to vote on separating it could be a close vote. And if they do vote to stay with the Ukraine will Putin except this. Can he be trusted. Ukraine was on the verge of joining the EU and there could be a lot of Russians in the Crimea that also wanted that to happen.
    Last edited by Gemini; 02-03-2014 at 09:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    If Ukraine had joined NATO when it had the chance, they likely would be protected from this current aggression.
    protected by?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    If Ukraine had joined NATO when it had the chance, they likely would be protected from this current aggression.
    I thought the "chance" was not truly there for Ukraine or Georgia, maybe I'm mis-remembering
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    If Ukraine had joined NATO when it had the chance, they likely would be protected from this current aggression.
    protected by?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

    The organization constitutes a system of collective defence whereby its member states agree to mutual defense in response to an attack by any external party.
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_...eaty#Article_5
    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdimedru View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    If Ukraine had joined NATO when it had the chance, they likely would be protected from this current aggression.
    I thought the "chance" was not truly there for Ukraine or Georgia, maybe I'm mis-remembering
    There were serious discussions between Ukraine and NATO, but many of the politicians and citizens were against it, including some prominent Orange Revolutionaries.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    If Ukraine had joined NATO when it had the chance, they likely would be protected from this current aggression.
    Just because the Ukraine is with NATO doesn't mean that Russia wouldn't have still invaded Crimea. And just because Ukraine isn't with NATO doesn't mean NATO won't possibly take action.

    From the Huffington Post:


    Ukraine, which says it has no intention of threatening Russian speakers, has appealed for help to NATO, and directly to Britain and the United States, as co-signatories with Russia to a 1994 accord guaranteeing Ukraine's security.

    After an emergency meeting of NATO ambassadors in Brussels, the alliance called on Russia to bring its forces back to bases and refrain from interfering in Ukraine.

    Despite expressing "grave concern", NATO did not agree on any significant measures to apply pressure to Russia, with the West struggling to come up with a forthright response that does not risk pushing the region closer to military conflict.

    "We urge both parties to immediately seek a peaceful solution through bilateral dialogue, with international facilitation ... and through the dispatch of international observers under the auspices of the United Nations Security Council or the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe," NATO said in a statement.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0..._hp_ref=canada


    Keep in mind Ukraine is surrounded by countries that are members of NATO.

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    But if Ukraine was a NATO member then the other member countries have to protect them from Russian invasion without any debate or doubt.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    But if Ukraine was a NATO member then the other member countries have to protect them from Russian invasion without any debate or doubt.
    No they don't, at least at first. Usually meetings, talks and diplomacy is the first step. Embargos are the second. War is the third.

    Never took Grade 10 Social Studies, huh?

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    ^ Never learned how to read, huh?

    http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

    NATO is committed to the principle that an attack against one or several members is considered as an attack against all. This is the principle of collective defence, which is enshrined in Article 5 of the Washington Treaty.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Your not getting it. Just because " that an attack against one or several members is considered as an attack against all" doesn't mean they're going to go and start a military campaign.

    Check out what happened with the Kosovo War in 1998 - 1999 for instance. It started in February 1998 and the NATO Strikes didn't occur until March 1999, a full one year later.

    So just because their mandate says that an "attack on one is an attack on all" doesn't mean NATO is going to run out in the first week (or month, or even year) and start retaliation which is what you're suggesting.

    edit: And besides, this is all moot point. We know that Ukraine isn't with NATO however the country can certainly ask for help. But in this case, if you think being a part of NATO would have stopped Russian aggression or that NATO would have immediately started taking action, you're wrong on both counts.

    Keep in mind, and I'm not downplaying the severity of Russia's actions, but so far this crisis has mostly just been political & military posturing. No one's actually shooting at each other... at least not yet.
    Last edited by Kitlope; 03-03-2014 at 01:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    But if Ukraine was a NATO member then the other member countries have to protect them from Russian invasion without any debate or doubt.
    Ukraine never got very close to NATO membership in any case. Had they done so, it's likely that Putin would have pulled a bunch of these tricks much, much sooner. Russia is willing to do just about anything to keep Ukraine in it's sphere of influence. Even the people of Ukraine are mostly against joining NATO. Or at least they were prior to the tanks rolling in.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine...ion_in_Ukraine

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    Nice hypocrisy there Mr. Secretary. Don't forget, you voted in favour of invading Iraq.

    "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A210DG20140302

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    Hmm.

    A powerful nation having gone through a rather embarrassing slump in stature and power.
    A charismatic leader who wants to be the undisputed regional power and possibly world power
    Laws enacted to target one small minority of the population
    An olympics showcasing the country as an organized, modern, technically astute nation.
    An unencumbered invasion of a foreign neighbour under the pretext of protecting national interests
    An international community that waves arms and gestures emphatically but does nothing.

    Where have we seen this before...any one have deja vu?

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    The long and short is that Russia signed a pact that say all nukes removed from Poland under the understanding that Russia recognizes and respects the Ukraine as a free and sovereign country.

    There was a Russian speaking person talking about the Crimean area. He was saying how he hates all the Ukrainian he hears everywhere...
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    Stephen Harper was for trumped up wars before he was against them. I'm surprised that he hasn't sided with Putin in this case.

    Today, the world is at war. A coalition of countries under the leadership of the U.K. and the U.S. is leading a military intervention to disarm Saddam Hussein. Yet Prime Minister Jean Chretien has left Canada outside this multilateral coalition of nations.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...81540524220000

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    There's plenty of hypocrisy to go around in geopolitics. Let's not forget that Russia and China are vehemently opposed to any foreign intervention in sovereign nations.... until it happens to be a nation that's right beside them challenging the status quo. Then watch out, they're all about intervention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Where have we seen this before...any one have deja vu?
    After looking at Obama's response to Syria crossing his "red line" my thoughts are, he will get mad, perhaps introduce some sanctions and that will be about it. To me Syria seems to be a bit of a parallel to the Spanish Civil War, the west didn't respond then so Hitler felt that he had a clean slate do what he wished. Obama did nothing for the most part in Syria so that gave Putin the assurance that he would do nothing yet again. Canada will probably have a stronger response than USA will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Your not getting it. Just because " that an attack against one or several members is considered as an attack against all" doesn't mean they're going to go and start a military campaign.

    Check out what happened with the Kosovo War in 1998 - 1999 for instance. It started in February 1998 and the NATO Strikes didn't occur until March 1999, a full one year later.

    So just because their mandate says that an "attack on one is an attack on all" doesn't mean NATO is going to run out in the first week (or month, or even year) and start retaliation which is what you're suggesting.

    edit: And besides, this is all moot point. We know that Ukraine isn't with NATO however the country can certainly ask for help. But in this case, if you think being a part of NATO would have stopped Russian aggression or that NATO would have immediately started taking action, you're wrong on both counts.

    Keep in mind, and I'm not downplaying the severity of Russia's actions, but so far this crisis has mostly just been political & military posturing. No one's actually shooting at each other... at least not yet.
    Kosovo was and is not a part of NATO. In fact at the time Kosovo was not even a state. Even now, its independence is not recognized by many of its neighbours. NATO's intervention in Kosovo was due a UN Security Council resolution and the request of the UN Special Envoy.

    With regards to Ukraine, if Ukraine had officially joined NATO I highly doubt Russia would have taken the current actions. However, President Viktor Yanukovych backed Ukraine away from their path to NATO membership in 2010 in favour strengthening ties with Russia. What the interim administration does now and what NATO is willing do directly now are open questions.

    Having done some more reading on the local issues it does appear Russia has a huge problem. That they have decided to send in troops is potentially a sign they are losing influence and will continue to lose influence. Despite my earlier thoughts that there was little the West and the U.S. could do it does appear there could be some very serious consequences for Russia. For example Georgia is well on the path the NATO membership and that could get fast-tracked. That would be a huge blow to Russia. Economically, Russia's oil and gas exports are key to its economy. If they lose their link to Europe they lose a huge amount of income.

    To the other issues, hypocrisy is a moot point in geo-politics. Nations attempt to follow a set of rules but ultimately, when push comes to shove, they will act as their leadership sees fit. In Putin's case, he uses whatever words are necessary to justify whatever action he deems necessary. Thus opposing intervention in Syria and then actively intervening in Ukraine.

    The U.S. and the West have been better at not intervening without UN or international support but as the second Iraq war illustrated, they too can be at the whims of their leadership.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  52. #52

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    Russia is demanding the surrender of some Ukrainian warships.

    more to come.
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  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Russia is demanding the surrender of some Ukrainian warships.

    more to come.
    I'm sure this whole occupation thing would have been in the Russian planning books or contingency plans for years and years. I imagine the western powers saw it as a very strong possibility too. So it's somewhat scary to think that future wars and occupations may be over before western democracies even figure out who should be invited to the 'stakeholder' meetings and public hearings.


    Maneuver warfare
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
    excerpt:

    "Napoleon's principal strategy was to move fast so as to engage before the enemy had time to organize, to engage lightly while moving to turn the flank that defended the main resupply route, to envelop and deploy blocking forces to prevent reinforcement, and to defeat those contained in the envelopment in detail. All of these activities imply faster movement than the enemy as well as faster reaction times to enemy activities.

    His use of fast mass marches to gain strategic advantage, cavalry probes and screens to hide his movements, and deliberate movement to gain psychological advantage by isolating forces from each other and their headquarters are all hallmarks of maneuver warfare. One of his major concerns was..."

  54. #54

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    I wonder what was going on while the world focused on the Olympics for a week....

    A rather pricey distraction but an effective one.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  55. #55

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    Russia called emergency meeting of UN Security Council and advises it did not demand surrender of Warships in Ukraine...
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Where have we seen this before...any one have deja vu?
    After looking at Obama's response to Syria crossing his "red line" my thoughts are, he will get mad, perhaps introduce some sanctions and that will be about it. To me Syria seems to be a bit of a parallel to the Spanish Civil War, the west didn't respond then so Hitler felt that he had a clean slate do what he wished. Obama did nothing for the most part in Syria so that gave Putin the assurance that he would do nothing yet again. Canada will probably have a stronger response than USA will.
    You mean, other than getting rid of the chemical weapons? Yeah, nothing at all.

    Chickenhawks are always willing to send other people's kids to fight their wars.

  57. #57

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    yes Canada's recalling of it's Ambassador in Russia was..... brazen.

    Go Canada...

    What next? the dumping of Vodka into the st Lawrence?

    Canada's reaction is been dismal. But really.. what do we expect from John Baird and how much do you think Vlad cares about the opinion of a "пидора́с"
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 03-03-2014 at 02:18 PM.
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    Scary stuff. My wife co-owns (with her mother) a couple of condos in Ukraine, and her great-grandmother owns a condo in Ukraine. What a messy situation.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    yes Canada's recalling of it's Ambassador in Russia was..... brazen. ... What next? the dumping of Vodka into the st Lawrence?
    Despite your certainty that Harper/Baird and company are cloven hoofed agents of evil ....

    In the world of foreign relations and protocol, recalling one's ambassador is a well recognized signal that is not sent, or received lightly.

    Does Vlad care-less? Well, that'll be his issue.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Canada's response has been proportionate to our ability to affect the situation. There is also a large amount of behind the scenes diplomatic activity going on and I think it's fair to exhaust all diplomatic solutions before escalating. Canada's role in any diplomacy will be secondary to the front line European nations and the US and our government should be careful not to hamstring any of their efforts.

    Also remember that while the diplomatic activity is happening, there is also a lot military preparation happening as well. It may not be in the media but it is guaranteed all full members of NATO, including Canada, are prepping for the worst.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  61. #61

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    ^^ I would thank you not to put words in my mouth.

    I think Harper runs the govt in a partisan and highly nonconstructive fashion I don't think he is the devil.

    That aside.. Recalling your ambassador AFTER the nation has illegally occupied a foreign nation is rather.... anticlimactically.

    I disagree.. I think we could have done more and we could have done it sooner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I disagree.. I think we could have done more and we could have done it sooner.
    Be specific. What should Canada have done?

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^^ I would thank you not to put words in my mouth.

    I think Harper runs the govt in a partisan and highly nonconstructive fashion I don't think he is the devil.

    That aside.. Recalling your ambassador AFTER the nation has illegally occupied a foreign nation is rather.... anticlimactically.

    I disagree.. I think we could have done more and we could have done it sooner.
    Typically recalling your ambassador is in reaction to some major event, in other words, after it happens. Prior to Russia sending troops into Ukraine they had taken no overt action there. I'm not aware of any other nation, and many of more at stake here than us, recalling their ambassador before Russian troops moved. Currently I believe only Britain and Canada have recalled their ambassadors.

    Further, we did more than recall our ambassador. We've also withdrawn from the Sochi G8 meeting and formally recognized the current Ukrainian government as legitimate. We're also co-ordinating directly with the U.S. on the situation. The fact of the matter is that until the Ukrainian government fell and Russian troops moved there was little publicly we could do than issue strongly worded statements, just like every other nation in the world that chose too.

    I'm curious as to what actions you believe we should have done prior to this and why you think they would have been effective.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Mulcair seems to back Harper's moves. Mulcair must be evil too.
    http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/03/02/m...kraine-crisis/
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    Well since the people talking bout sanctions are worried about their own pockets...

    UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ondon-document

    and said sanctions are likely to be ineffective as Russia is too large.... and investment in Russia is unlikely to stop by foreign investors..

    Russia wins second Crimean war
    http://america.aljazeera.com/opinion...nblacksea.html

    And this is Really all about Natural Gas, machismo and Russia wanting to flop it's dick out for the world to see... I feel that military action needs to not be down played like it is. Doesn't mean we rush in but I dislike how everyone has written it off... Russia has occupied a free and sovereign country because they lost their inside guy who ran the Ukraine.

    I also feel that we could fight gas with gas. We could go on a VERY public cross Europe mission outlining how Canada is going to work towards moving natural gas and resources to Europe. This will not be quick but lets get real... The middle east was about oil this is about natural gas.

    and ya.. little old pacifist me is talking about military action.... Vlad won't stop, there were international theaters avl to do what he has done and he has chosen to ignore them.

    If only the Ukraine had kept it's nukes.

    Godwin's law aside I cannot help but see certain parallels to Modern Russia under Vlad an that of Nazi Germany.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 03-03-2014 at 03:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Well since the people talking bout sanctions are worried about their own pockets...

    UK seeking to ensure Russia sanctions do not harm City of London

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ondon-document

    and said sanctions are likely to be ineffective as Russia is too large.... and investment in Russia is unlikely to stop by foreign investors..

    Russia wins second Crimean war
    http://america.aljazeera.com/opinion...nblacksea.html

    And this is Really all about Natural Gas, machismo and Russia wanting to flop it's dick out for the world to see... I feel that military action needs to not be down played like it is. Doesn't mean we rush in but I dislike how everyone has written it off... Russia has occupied a free and sovereign country because they lost their inside guy who ran the Ukraine.

    I also feel that we could fight gas with gas. We could go on a VERY public cross Europe mission outlining how Canada is going to work towards moving natural gas and resources to Europe. This will not be quick but lets get real... The middle east was about oil this is about natural gas.

    and ya.. little old pacifist me is talking about military action.... Vlad won't stop, there were international theaters avl to do what he has done and he has chosen to ignore them.

    If only the Ukraine had kept it's nukes.

    Godwin's law aside I cannot help but see certain parallels to Modern Russia under Vlad an that of Nazi Germany.
    First, you still haven't answered the primary question: what action should Canada have taken prior to Russian troops entering Ukraine.

    Second, encouraging Europe to drop Russian oil would cause damage to the Ukrainian economy as well as the Russian one as the all that oil and gas is shipped through the Ukraine.

    Third, nobody is discounting military action. Even in the case of the Gulf War it was months before military action was taken against Iraq. In the intervening time all diplomatic measures were exhausted while military forces were mobilized and moved into position. It's only been a few days since Russia moved on Ukraine. Diplomatic measures will continue while the U.S. and NATO move assets into position in case they're needed. Of course the thing to note is Russia is a nuclear power. If Putin is really this much of a loose canon that has to be taken into consideration.

    Finally, if Ukraine had kept its nukes it wouldn't have been given its independence and we wouldn't have this problem.

    This a complex, messy and dangerous situation. There is a huge amount of activity happening that we are not aware of. Judging the actions of nation states in an ongoing situation base solely on media reports is extremely short-sighted.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  67. #67

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    Lots of people are discounting military action... LOTS. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS...

    The Ukraine has a HEAVY manufacturing industry. It uses more natural gas than France.... Russia wants the manufacturing portion leaving the west part of the Ukraine neutered and leaving the EU and the international community with an even bigger mess to clean up.

    asking "what do you think we should have done before there was a problem" is really a loaded question and one I won't care to answer. Looking at our navels and questioning what could have been done won't help now.

    The EU needed to look at it's dependence on Russia long before this.... this isn't the first time Russia has pulled this stunt in the Ukraine.

    Its time to start asking what Russia's Endgame is and start preparing for that.

    This is a scary time for the world I feel.... China wading into partisan politics is also worrisome.
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  68. #68

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    Baird rules out military response to Russian intervention in Ukraine
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle17186169/

    Mr. Baird is ruling out western military intervention to force Russia to pull its troops out of Ukraine.

    I don’t think there’s anyone talking about western military intervention, none of our friends or allies,” Mr. Baird said earlier Sunday in an interview with Global’s West Block.

    “What we are doing is working together to say in no uncertain terms that this is completely unacceptable and to condemn (it) in the strongest language possible.”


    Russia and Vlad is about Action... not words. He rides around half nakid and hunts things for sport. He is Macho personified. He views the west as weak in the old soviet tradition. Reclaiming his lost territory goes beyond rational.....

    If only Ukraine was a full member of Nato... sigh.

    I feel like everything the western developed world has worded for is coming undone. The Un and Nato are full of Rot... and Vladie Waddie knows it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    asking "what do you think we should have done before there was a problem" is really a loaded question and one I won't care to answer. Looking at our navels and questioning what could have been done won't help now.
    You are the one who said we should have done more before now. I assume you had something in mind I would like to know what it is. I'm not sure why you would express an opinion without having anything to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    The EU needed to look at it's dependence on Russia long before this.... this isn't the first time Russia has pulled this stunt in the Ukraine.
    When, since 1992, have Russian troops entered Ukraine? Prior to that, for hundreds of years, Ukraine was not an independent state, and was essentially part of Russia.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Having done some more reading on the local issues it does appear Russia has a huge problem. That they have decided to send in troops is potentially a sign they are losing influence and will continue to lose influence. Despite my earlier thoughts that there was little the West and the U.S. could do it does appear there could be some very serious consequences for Russia. For example Georgia is well on the path the NATO membership and that could get fast-tracked. That would be a huge blow to Russia. Economically, Russia's oil and gas exports are key to its economy. If they lose their link to Europe they lose a huge amount of income.

    To the other issues, hypocrisy is a moot point in geo-politics. Nations attempt to follow a set of rules but ultimately, when push comes to shove, they will act as their leadership sees fit. In Putin's case, he uses whatever words are necessary to justify whatever action he deems necessary. Thus opposing intervention in Syria and then actively intervening in Ukraine.
    Paul, appreciate reading your well-informed posts.

    One of the complications of Georgian membership in NATO are the thousands of Russian "peacekeepers" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. These territories are under Russian, not Georgian control, with their independence recognized by Russia and a few of its close allies, though not by the UN or the vast majority of other countries. Link to a map:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ge...detail_map.png

    There are some strong parallels between Russia's actions in Crimea today, and in South Ossetia and Abkhazia in past years. There are other self-declared rump Russian republics in Moldova and Azerbijan as well. All of these territories have populations with closer ties (through ethnicity and/or religion) to Russia than to the countries they are nominally part of.

  71. #71

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    Sorry I am talking more nowish. I was not clear on that and that was my bad.

    ----

    October 2007 was the last flare up of this nature. Russia didn't political unrest to use as leverage but diplomatic tensions were high and there was a lot of posturing going on.
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  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Canada's reaction is been dismal. But really.. what do we expect from John Baird and how much do you think Vlad cares about the opinion of a "пидора́с"
    Ummm, while I'd like more to be done, I don't think there's much option, especially with Obama doing squat (everyone knows he is all talk no action internationally). Mulclair seems to be supporting what the government has done. Trudeau should continue to be quite (out of his depth).

    PS IMO Baird is the best foreign minister canada has had, certianly the most vocal on human rights / minority rights, but then, perhaps that's because he is a minority himself and understands some of these issues very well?
    Last edited by moahunter; 03-03-2014 at 05:03 PM.

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Canada's reaction is been dismal. But really.. what do we expect from John Baird and how much do you think Vlad cares about the opinion of a "пидора́с"
    Ummm, while I'd like more to be done, I don't think there's much option, especially with Obama doing squat (everyone knows he is all talk no action internationally). Mulclair seems to be supporting what the government has done. Trudeau should continue to be quite (out of his depth).

    PS IMO Baird is the best foreign minister canada has had, certianly the most vocal on human rights / minority rights, but then, perhaps that's because he is a minority himself and understands some of these issues very well?
    Personally I think it's too late to make any worthwhile moves. Most of battle and the war have been lost. Ukrain has to prove it has a legitimate government asap and concurrently peace keeping forces have to be put on the ground to prevent Russian from seizing the rest of the Russian speaking territory.

    Everyone always expects the US to solve all the problems and then complains about their actions. We have a UN.

  74. #74

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    ^ I am not a fan of single country actions I am more in Favor of Nato and UN directed actions.
    I think it's important the world speaks as one. Its been one of nations moving ahead with unilateral action that has caused some of the worst political F ups that I have known in my lifetime in my opinion.

    I would not say that John is the best we have ever had. I think we have had much more gracious people fill that role.... now if wars could be won by yelling at them then Baird is the man... It's all he seems to do in the house.

    Lets not forget that Harper Ran on a platform to hold a vote to take away my right to marriage equality. sharper and the large majority of his caucus remain silent on such issues while Baird champions them. Baird is very into john Baird and has made some serious political no nos. The East Jerusalem meeting was the biggest. A partisan trip to the Ukraine was the most recent.
    John Baird and Harper turned an international precursor to possible war into an election stunt. the most puzzling is why India's anti gay laws were not publicly ridiculed by Mr. Baird... I wonder if the newly inked trade deal had something to do with that...

    On a personal note I also dislike Adult in there 40's who date young men in their 20's. Which he does. I find it distasteful and a sign of a control freak.
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  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Canada's reaction is been dismal. But really.. what do we expect from John Baird and how much do you think Vlad cares about the opinion of a "пидора́с"
    Ummm, while I'd like more to be done, I don't think there's much option, especially with Obama doing squat (everyone knows he is all talk no action internationally). Mulclair seems to be supporting what the government has done. Trudeau should continue to be quite (out of his depth).

    PS IMO Baird is the best foreign minister canada has had, certianly the most vocal on human rights / minority rights, but then, perhaps that's because he is a minority himself and understands some of these issues very well?
    Personally I think it's too late to make any worthwhile moves. Most of battle and the war have been lost. Ukrain has to prove it has a legitimate government asap and concurrently peace keeping forces have to be put on the ground to prevent Russian from seizing the rest of the Russian speaking territory.

    Everyone always expects the US to solve all the problems and then complains about their actions. We have a UN.
    this X100

    Sadly with Russian and China being on the security council.. this won't happen. NATO is the logical choice but Vlad knows that NATO is so nerfed and toothless these days that he will go unchallenged and he has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    Just a note: There is no "the" in Ukraine. It's a common error.
    not an "error", but a political correctedness thing...

    the origin of "the" is the direct or literal meaning of one of the interpretations of the slavic word "Ukraine" which basically means "the fringe" or "the border" or "the edge"... note "the" in each...

    The other meaning of the word "Ukraine" is more like a "region".

    By including "the", people inadvertendly make a reference to Ukraine being on the edge of Russia rather than being a "region" in itself. Given current developments, it is not difficult to figure out why the Ukrainian community would rather be called "Ukraine" and not "The Ukraine". Just another means to reaffirm its independence and uniqueness rather than being on the fringe of something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean, other than getting rid of the chemical weapons? Yeah, nothing at all.

    Chickenhawks are always willing to send other people's kids to fight their wars.
    Getting rid of chemical weapons has done little to stop the slaughter of Syrians by their government, I still stand by my words. Obama will do not much more than talk and implement some sanctions.

    I'm not sure the best way to handle this situation, perhaps there might be some sort of negotiated agreement, Russia is allowed its naval base, perhaps something like Okinawa or other overseas US bases. I do not see large numbers of troops being sent in from western countries, but perhaps some sort of peace keeping mission can be set up.

    PS: Thank you for the insult, I really appreciate the personal attack.

  78. #78

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    We will see what happens in the coming weeks. Let's be clear that Russia does have an agreement with Ukraine respecting Crimea and the Black Sea and can have troops deployed in the area to protect their interests and their interests are considerable with the Black Sea being the only warm water port in the region and a Russian naval fleet based in Crimea. There has not and hopefully will not be a bullet fired.

    The West has done little in Syria and that conflict continues as thousands of people have died and the focus is now on Crimea. Guarantee that the West and the UN will do little other than talk and talk and propose sanctions. Words are meaningless unless actions follow.

    However, it is clear that the majority of people living in Crimea favour being part of the Russian Federation so they ought to vote on that before they consider any form of military action, on both sides.

    Finally, from another thread, there are thousands of Ukrainians in Alberta and we know the history to that. I ask you, is the Ukrainian flag flying from City Hall or the legislature today?

  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    I'm catching from my hospital TV that the Russian Federation is now occupying the Crimean Peninsula


    This is not good...
    Hope you are out of hospital Admin - and feeling better....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean, other than getting rid of the chemical weapons? Yeah, nothing at all.

    Chickenhawks are always willing to send other people's kids to fight their wars.
    Getting rid of chemical weapons has done little to stop the slaughter of Syrians by their government, I still stand by my words. Obama will do not much more than talk and implement some sanctions.

    I'm not sure the best way to handle this situation, perhaps there might be some sort of negotiated agreement, Russia is allowed its naval base, perhaps something like Okinawa or other overseas US bases. I do not see large numbers of troops being sent in from western countries, but perhaps some sort of peace keeping mission can be set up.

    PS: Thank you for the insult, I really appreciate the personal attack.
    Unless you've served then the shoe fits. Not an insult but simply a label that applies to various war drum beaters.

    Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political term used in the United States to describe a person who strongly supports war or other military action (i.e., a war hawk), yet who actively avoided military service when of age.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)
    Harper and Day are the poster boys for Canadian chickenhawks. Never met a war they were't in favour of someone else flighting.

    It's not just the naval base, there's large numbers of ethnic Russians in the area, in the range of 60%. We put western troops into that and we could find ourself in-between sides of what is essentially a civil war with Russia backing one side and the west backing the other. Do you really want to be in the middle of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Having done some more reading on the local issues it does appear Russia has a huge problem. That they have decided to send in troops is potentially a sign they are losing influence and will continue to lose influence. Despite my earlier thoughts that there was little the West and the U.S. could do it does appear there could be some very serious consequences for Russia. For example Georgia is well on the path the NATO membership and that could get fast-tracked. That would be a huge blow to Russia. Economically, Russia's oil and gas exports are key to its economy. If they lose their link to Europe they lose a huge amount of income.

    To the other issues, hypocrisy is a moot point in geo-politics. Nations attempt to follow a set of rules but ultimately, when push comes to shove, they will act as their leadership sees fit. In Putin's case, he uses whatever words are necessary to justify whatever action he deems necessary. Thus opposing intervention in Syria and then actively intervening in Ukraine.
    Paul, appreciate reading your well-informed posts.

    One of the complications of Georgian membership in NATO are the thousands of Russian "peacekeepers" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. These territories are under Russian, not Georgian control, with their independence recognized by Russia and a few of its close allies, though not by the UN or the vast majority of other countries. Link to a map:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ge...detail_map.png

    There are some strong parallels between Russia's actions in Crimea today, and in South Ossetia and Abkhazia in past years. There are other self-declared rump Russian republics in Moldova and Azerbijan as well. All of these territories have populations with closer ties (through ethnicity and/or religion) to Russia than to the countries they are nominally part of.
    Thanks! It's nice to be able to put my education to use occasionally.

    The South Ossetia and Abkhazia situation is interesting but I doubt it block Georgia's entry into NATO since there are currently no hostilities ongoing and even if Georgia became a full member, NATO would directly support Georgia trying to militarily take them back.

    One major difference with Crimea is that South Ossetia and Abkhazia were already in turmoil, with large amounts ethnic violence. Crimea is relatively stable although the potential for turmoil is there, particularly with the Tatars and the Russians. Crimea is also semi-independent already, which further complicates things.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo
    Lots of people are discounting military action... LOTS. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS...
    And for good reason. Russia is a nuclear power, and has one of the most powerful militaries on the planet. Throwing around threats of the use of force is only going to escalate the situation, not defuse it. World leaders have to be very, very careful in how they approach this situation, because it could kick off a regional war directly between the forces of nuclear armed nations, which has never happened before in history. All the wars during the Cold War were by proxies, not directly between US and Russian/Soviet troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo
    The Ukraine has a HEAVY manufacturing industry. It uses more natural gas than France.... Russia wants the manufacturing portion leaving the west part of the Ukraine neutered and leaving the EU and the international community with an even bigger mess to clean up.
    Russia has made no moves to invade Eastern Ukraine. Their actions have solely been limited to Crimea at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo
    asking "what do you think we should have done before there was a problem" is really a loaded question and one I won't care to answer. Looking at our navels and questioning what could have been done won't help now.
    Stop dodging the question, it's a perfectly fair one. You repeatedly claimed that Harper wasn't doing enough. Surely that would indicate that you would have some concrete examples of what he should be doing. Instead all you've managed to come up with is that Canada should be threatening Russia with war, which frankly is laughable. We have an extremely limited ability to project any force in the region without relying on our European and American allies, and none of them are going to resort to threats of force any time soon. We'd look like idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    PS IMO Baird is the best foreign minister canada has had, certianly the most vocal on human rights / minority rights, but then, perhaps that's because he is a minority himself and understands some of these issues very well?
    lol, he doesn't hold a candle to Joe Clark (led opposition to Apartheid and shamed Britain in to joining him), Lester Pearson (invented modern peacekeeping) or Lloyd Axeworthy (anti-landmine treaty amongst others). Learn some history.

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance
    Getting rid of chemical weapons has done little to stop the slaughter of Syrians by their government, I still stand by my words. Obama will do not much more than talk and implement some sanctions.
    And what should Obama or the world do about Syria? Like many countries in the Middle East and Africa the borders are a relic of colonialism, and when push comes to shove there is no unified, national identity. Instead people fall back to tribalism. There are no good solutions to the civil war in Syria, unfortunately. No peacekeeping mission is possible due to stalemate on the Security Council. If the US were to invade with a coalition of allies, it would be as bad or worse than Iraq was. It would be a massive mistake.

  83. #83

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    I have read more than a few opinions that NATO needs to act. I don't disagree on the whole but it's very grey. I also read a great European opinion article that states that the only person that can effect bald at all is the German councillor. Peaceful resolution lays pretty much solely at her feet
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 04-03-2014 at 09:30 AM.
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  84. #84

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    I am not interested in the lead up. Ukraine is an independent state if their people wish to enact a coup than so be it.

    This region is to hold a referendum on independence and is semi autonomous with it's own parliament. It seems to me we should likely be listening to them more.
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    This is scarey... http://www.salon.com/2014/03/04/rudy...leader”/

    High profile Americans praising near dictatorial actions and regimes as something to be admired. Not in the joking fashion of Trudeau either
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  86. #86

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    There is tonnes of misinformation and propaganda being thrown out there, particularly by the western media. While many can agree that yanukovich was not the greatest guy, what give the west the right to interfere in ukraine's government and install a pro western leader? Crimea is 100% key to russia's security. if the united states was threatened on their border how do you think they would respond?

    Take a look at the photos of the russian troops in crimea. They have no magazines in their rifles. They are just letting everyone know that they will keep crimea at all costs but are not trying to shed any blood.

    The real shame is the united states foreign policy and the crap they spew out of their media.

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    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.

  88. #88
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    Hrrrm, kgb. kgb? Hrrrrm.

    Ironically, I have some (not a lot but some) sympathy with some (some but not a lot) of what you say.

    No doubt, it was pretty much a coup. But, things like that happen when you shoot at your own countrymen for daring to protest.

    You also lose legitamacy on the world stage.

    So up to a point, you had a point. But Yankovich passed that point weeks ago, making your point, err, pointless.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.
    Turkey is a full member of NATO with an active military four times the size of Ukraine's. Also, Russia can't claim to the be defending Russian speakers/citizens the way they can with Georgia and Ukraine. Not going to happen.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  90. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.
    Turkey is a full member of NATO with an active military four times the size of Ukraine's. Also, Russia can't claim to the be defending Russian speakers/citizens the way they can with Georgia and Ukraine. Not going to happen.
    Not to mention that if Russia even hinted that they were attempting to conquer it to regain the original seat of Orthodox Christianity, or Turkey framed it that way in its defence, you'd have every Middle Eastern Muslim nation, including Iran and Syria, lining up besides NATO to fight Russia. I doubt even Putin would be nuts enough to kick up that hornets' nest.

  91. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    It's not just the naval base, there's large numbers of ethnic Russians in the area, in the range of 60%. We put western troops into that and we could find ourself in-between sides of what is essentially a civil war with Russia backing one side and the west backing the other. Do you really want to be in the middle of that?
    That's a poor justification for invasion by Russia though, the horrible thing about all of this, is that Russia has basically just taken the Nazi Germany playbook pre WWII re the Czech republic, instigate some unrest among Russian speakers (or in that case, German), then march in to "protect" them. The rest of the world stood by and did nothing (just like now). The sad thing in WWII, is that Czech would have actually been able to put up a decent fight (good defensive land, and their industry, particularly tank production, was more advanced than Germany pre war). Lets hope Split Enz were right:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzuJXqgsiSM
    Last edited by moahunter; 04-03-2014 at 12:41 PM.

  92. #92

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    If there is a war, no nukes will be used - there's too much real estate at stake.

  93. #93
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    I'm leery of the comparisons to pre-WWII Germany. It's easy in hindsight to see Europe mishandled Hitler however it was very unclear at the time. What was clear was how devastating another massive war would be. It's also unclear that opposing Hitler's annexations wouldn't have just resulted in the war starting earlier with equal devastation.

    In the present day, while Putin is dangerous, the equations are very different. At this point no one is talking about ceding Crimea to Russia. Support is being given to Ukraine and diplomatic efforts are underway to defuse the situation by getting Russia to withdraw. At this point Ukraine has explicitly not asked for direct military aid.

    And it should never be forgotten that Russia is a nuclear power. If Putin truly is a loose canon then talking him away from the ledge is a far better course than going to war. And as I wrote the last sentence this went by on Twitter: Russia reports ballistic missile test amid Crimea tension

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgb81
    There is tonnes of misinformation and propaganda being thrown out there, particularly by the western media. While many can agree that yanukovich was not the greatest guy, what give the west the right to interfere in ukraine's government and install a pro western leader?
    Last I checked, it was a popular uprising and Ukraine's own parliament is the one that removed Yanukovich and picked the new government. There was very little western involvement, conspiracy theories aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.
    They're a full member of NATO, and have a very large and capable army. They couldn't fight off the Russians on their own indefinitely, but Russia would be hard pressed to quickly defeat them before the rest of the world reacted. Russia isn't going to make a move on Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo
    I have read more than a few opinions that NATO needs to act. I don't disagree on the whole but it's very grey. I also read a great European opinion article that states that the only person that can effect bald at all is the German councillor. Peaceful resolution lays pretty much solely at her feet
    Still waiting to hear about all the obvious stuff that Harper should be doing, but isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    And what should Obama or the world do about Syria? Like many countries in the Middle East and Africa the borders are a relic of colonialism, and when push comes to shove there is no unified, national identity. Instead people fall back to tribalism. There are no good solutions to the civil war in Syria, unfortunately. No peacekeeping mission is possible due to stalemate on the Security Council. If the US were to invade with a coalition of allies, it would be as bad or worse than Iraq was. It would be a massive mistake.
    I wish I knew the right answer to that question, should the west support the somewhat Taliban opposition? Do you use drones and take out Assad's infrastructure and if so who rises up to fill in the gap, probably the Taliban. I do agree, there is no good solution.

    Crimea is an easier problem in some ways, because I think Russia will probably negotiate some sort of peacekeeping arrangement eventually.

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    The Taliban has absolutely nothing to do with Syria.

  97. #97

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    Sounds like the Crimean War all over again


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    The Taliban has absolutely nothing to do with Syria.
    My bad ... Al Qaeda
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...rn-front.html#

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgb81 View Post
    Take a look at the photos of the russian troops in crimea. They have no magazines in their rifles. They are just letting everyone know that they will keep crimea at all costs but are not trying to shed any blood.

    The real shame is the united states foreign policy and the crap they spew out of their media.
    Look again

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...in-crimea.html

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine...imea-1.2558211

    Those assault guns are locked and loaded.
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  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder if Turkey is starting to sweat a bit. It might soon prove a nice addition to the new Russian empire.
    Turkey is a full member of NATO with an active military four times the size of Ukraine's. Also, Russia can't claim to the be defending Russian speakers/citizens the way they can with Georgia and Ukraine. Not going to happen.
    You assume invasion. Memberships can lapse or prove ineffective. Countries work towards their long term interests. And I bet it's a confusing world even for people that know what's going on.


    Turkey may block NATO ships from entering Bosphorus

    "The reports that Chinese diplomats convinced Turkey to block access to NATO ships are unconfirmed."

    http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/13...ring-bosphorus

    Turkey's Chinese missile system won't work with US, NATO- US official
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0J62IQ20131121

    NATO's Turkey Problem
    "As NATO membership provides Turkey with crucial technology and political clout, it is unlikely that the AKP is interested in ending the country's decades-old commitment to the Alliance. But particularly if the 2011 elections allow it to cement its rule, the AKP will increasingly use its NATO membership to undermine operations in the Muslim world and to defend its Manichean view of global politics."

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...20031627847278
    Last edited by KC; 04-03-2014 at 02:35 PM.

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