Remember Me?
Home Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Roads and Civic Infrastructure Here’s where to discuss roads, sewer, water, power and other civic initiatives outside mass transit. Issues relating to any supporting structures (electric, cable, water, bridges, etc.) are part of this forum too.


Go Back   Connect2Edmonton > Regional Issues > Roads and Civic Infrastructure
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 29-03-2008, 04:59 PM   #1
Edmonton PRT
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default Studded Tires vs Sand & Salt

I was just in Portland Oregon and I noticed that about 20% of cars & trucks had studded tires. Portland itself gets very little snow and some ice rain but in the surrounding mountains they get lots of snow and ice. I looked specifically if there was any damage to road surfaces including concrete, asphalt and streetcar tracks and found no evidence of any affect.

Back here in Edmonton we use up to 180,000 tons of salt and about 10% salt each year. The cost to stockpile sand & salt, spread it on roads and then clean it up in spring is enormous. The amount of dust created by traffic and wind affects those with asthma and covers everything outside. The greenhouse gases emitted from sanding trucks and street sweepers is considerable. The sand and salt also kills grass and trees, and sand clogs catch basins that need regular cleaning.

My question is; why are studded tires not allowed in Edmonton and would we be able to do without sand and salt by encouraging car drivers to use ice radials or studded tires? Of course we would still need snow removal and emphasis on more thorough plowing of streets. Drivers would also need to adapt by slowing down in icy conditions and studded tires would be mandated to be removed in spring.

Comments?
__________________
Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.
Edmonton PRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2008, 08:37 AM   #2
cremazie
First One is Always Free
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB
Default

Ok, funny enough.. studded tires are legal in Alberta. I know for a fact because I have them on my truck during the winter. I am a firm believer in studded tires and their advantages. It is not the city or the province's fault that people rely on sand, it seems that people forget about how important tires are and how much better traction can be gained with proper tires. I would guess that 10% of people here use winter tires and less than 1% are studded. I don't know why that is, considering that there is way more ice on roads here than anywhere else I have ever lived.
cremazie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2008, 10:03 AM   #3
LindseyT
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: City Of Champions
Default

Because people would rather whine and moan about the city not doing a good job plowing or sanding than take responsibility for themselves and buy winter/studded tires.

Nobody takes responsibility for their own actions anymore, why should this be any different?


/sarcasm
__________________
"the best social program is a job"
LindseyT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2008, 12:18 PM   #4
raz0469
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Edmonton
Default

Pretty sure that studded tires would significantly add to the wear on city roads. I agree that people should have winter tires, though.
raz0469 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2008, 07:39 AM   #5
jmart81
Partially Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Edmonton
Default

There are a handful of good unstudded winter tires out there, such as the set on my car. Studs are still the best obviously on icy roads.
jmart81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2008, 08:50 AM   #6
IanO
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Downtown Edmonton
Default

winter tires should be mandatory for nov-march....simple as that.
__________________
inspiration or mediocrity

'Don't just slap a picture in & call it content. That's like slapping a big wing on a Honda and calling it a race car.' - noodle

www.decl.org

Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton
IanO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2008, 09:03 AM   #7
Wrecker
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanO View Post
winter tires should be mandatory for nov-march....simple as that.
No, more stringent testing of drivers & higher minimum standards for drivers is what this Province needs. I have made it through A LOT of winters without winter tires.
Wrecker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2008, 10:32 AM   #8
Hilman
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ozerna, North Edmonton
Default

Better driver education and testing would be beneficial but the greatest driver in the world can't stop on ice/snow as well using all season tires. Yes I know, great drivers drive the speed and brake earlier in the winter but it is no contest comparing the two types of tires. This was my first winter with winter tires and it is night and day, all season tires are horrible when it comes to snow and ice. I am a believer now; I used to roll my eyes at people using winter tires lol. Michelin X-Ice tires were well worth the money and will never drive a winter without them.

Regards
Hilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2008, 02:12 PM   #9
Edmontonfan
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Edmonton
Default

I've used good winter tires for a number of years now and they are so much better for snow and ice that it's not even close.
__________________
Edmontonian and proud of it!
Edmontonfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 12:05 PM   #10
finishstrong
Partially Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Parkview
Default

I'm a mechanic and studded tires are not necessarily the answer. Unless the studs can get a good lock on the surface, which is rare with the amount of torque that the average vehicle puts out, they'll spin just as freely as any other tire. If you've got a good all-season tire and you drive for the weather conditions, they are just as capable of carrying you through the winter. I personally think Winter Tires give people a false sense of security, and the stopping distances of those are just as long when you slam on the brakes as it is with All-Seasons.
finishstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 07:53 PM   #11
kcantor
Addicted to C2E
Mr. Reality Check
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by finishstrong View Post
I'm a mechanic and studded tires are not necessarily the answer. Unless the studs can get a good lock on the surface, which is rare with the amount of torque that the average vehicle puts out, they'll spin just as freely as any other tire. If you've got a good all-season tire and you drive for the weather conditions, they are just as capable of carrying you through the winter. I personally think Winter Tires give people a false sense of security, and the stopping distances of those are just as long when you slam on the brakes as it is with All-Seasons.
it's not just the better traction (which is even more important on rear wheel drive cars) or the stopping distance. while they might be the same in some circumstances but won't be in all and it's not just the amount of snow or ice on the road. the biggest advantage with snow tires is not just in tread patterns but in tread compound - once the temperature drops, it is the tread compound in snow tires that will allow them to retain the traction and traction and stopping distance without getting slick and they will then outperform even the best all-seasons tire hands down. does that mean you "have to have them"? not for most of us most of the time but we shouldn't pretend that even the best all-seasons tire is always the equal of a decent snow tire - they aren't and driving like they are will only get you in trouble at some point.
__________________
really just cranky, miserable and disagreeable on principle but happy to have earned the title anyway; downtown arena fan; edmonton 2017 world's fair and edmonton indy supporter; proponent of "edmonton works"
kcantor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 08:48 PM   #12
RichardS
C2E Junkie
*
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Default

I've made it through several winters on all seasons, esp Toyo's. I did try wintert tires (Blizzaks) for 2 seasnos and when new, they were great for the first season, but at 50% wear they were as hard as the all seasons and no better on grip.
__________________
Just stating facts...per ardua ad astra
RichardS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 10:01 PM   #13
kcantor
Addicted to C2E
Mr. Reality Check
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
I've made it through several winters on all seasons, esp Toyo's. I did try wintert tires (Blizzaks) for 2 seasnos and when new, they were great for the first season, but at 50% wear they were as hard as the all seasons and no better on grip.
no surprise - they change their compound half way through the tread surface which makes them a great choice - to begin with. and because of that they also prove the point about compound being as much or more of a factor than tread pattern on its own. x-ice or one of the others that don't change compound in an attempt to improve tread wear at the expense of why they were bought in the first place would have been a better choice.
__________________
really just cranky, miserable and disagreeable on principle but happy to have earned the title anyway; downtown arena fan; edmonton 2017 world's fair and edmonton indy supporter; proponent of "edmonton works"
kcantor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2008, 10:22 PM   #14
sweetcrude
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by finishstrong View Post
I'm a mechanic and studded tires are not necessarily the answer. Unless the studs can get a good lock on the surface, which is rare with the amount of torque that the average vehicle puts out, they'll spin just as freely as any other tire. If you've got a good all-season tire and you drive for the weather conditions, they are just as capable of carrying you through the winter. I personally think Winter Tires give people a false sense of security, and the stopping distances of those are just as long when you slam on the brakes as it is with All-Seasons.
it's not just the better traction (which is even more important on rear wheel drive cars) or the stopping distance. while they might be the same in some circumstances but won't be in all and it's not just the amount of snow or ice on the road. the biggest advantage with snow tires is not just in tread patterns but in tread compound - once the temperature drops, it is the tread compound in snow tires that will allow them to retain the traction and traction and stopping distance without getting slick and they will then outperform even the best all-seasons tire hands down. does that mean you "have to have them"? not for most of us most of the time but we shouldn't pretend that even the best all-seasons tire is always the equal of a decent snow tire - they aren't and driving like they are will only get you in trouble at some point.

I certainly understand the benefits of traction with a snow tire, but I know that finishstrong is absolutely correct in saying that they do tend to give some drivers out there a false sense of security. Don't get me wrong here, snow tires work well, but they almost work too well for drivers who subsequently don't drive appropriately for the winter conditions because they believe they can rely heavily on having the traction of a snow tire.

Anyway, I tend to stay away from the additional expense simply because I find that I don't need them. Yes, there are likely occasions where people may need them to avoid an accident, but having some close calls in my life, I've managed to learn how to drive.

That being said, I'm in favor of using a sand/salt mixture on the roads instead of using studded tires. It makes the city appear dirty while the snow is melting, but I think that option is favorable to not laying traction on the roads and hoping that everyone has either bought snow or studded tires.
sweetcrude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 12:53 AM   #15
RichardS
C2E Junkie
*
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
no surprise - they change their compound half way through the tread surface which makes them a great choice - to begin with. and because of that they also prove the point about compound being as much or more of a factor than tread pattern on its own. x-ice or one of the others that don't change compound in an attempt to improve tread wear at the expense of why they were bought in the first place would have been a better choice.
Wow, and you didn't harp on my bad blackberry spelling either! Yes, they do change compound, and made for a loud and peeling all season.

X-ice is a good tire. I guess I'm just used to 4WD, the right weight distribution, the fact that we really don't get much snow here, and that I know how to drive to the conditions.

I like my paint, and my car, to stay intact.
__________________
Just stating facts...per ardua ad astra
RichardS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 07:52 AM   #16
jmart81
Partially Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Edmonton
Default

Best Winter tires are Nokians. They specialize in those tires and are probably 5-10 years ahead in technology compared to most other companies. Its their bread and butter for the company.
jmart81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 08:28 AM   #17
Edmonton PRT
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default

Take a look at today'd Edmonton Journal front page with the picture of the sweepers creating clouds of dust. I see areas in Edmonton with sand bars as high as the curbs and this year they didn't use as much sand as last year. The dust produced from all this sand is a significant health concern for many and really makes the city unappealing to visitors and locals alike from the brown snow piles of winter till late spring when most of the sand is cleaned up. I know of many parking lots and some roadways where the sand wasn't picked up till August.

If the City were to encourge winter and ice tires through a program that would offer a $10 credit for each tire purchased thousands of drivers would make the switch. By reducing the amount of sand 25% each year in four years we could save more than enough money to fund the rebate program. The long term savings in manpower, sand and fuel would be considerable with the benefits of cleaner streets, air and water.
__________________
Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.
Edmonton PRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 12:09 PM   #18
sweetcrude
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
Take a look at today'd Edmonton Journal front page with the picture of the sweepers creating clouds of dust. I see areas in Edmonton with sand bars as high as the curbs and this year they didn't use as much sand as last year. The dust produced from all this sand is a significant health concern for many and really makes the city unappealing to visitors and locals alike from the brown snow piles of winter till late spring when most of the sand is cleaned up. I know of many parking lots and some roadways where the sand wasn't picked up till August.

If the City were to encourge winter and ice tires through a program that would offer a $10 credit for each tire purchased thousands of drivers would make the switch. By reducing the amount of sand 25% each year in four years we could save more than enough money to fund the rebate program. The long term savings in manpower, sand and fuel would be considerable with the benefits of cleaner streets, air and water.
There must not be a standard procedure to complete sweeping up the sand in Edmonton. The crew I passed this morning had a water truck on either end keeping the "dust" to near zero. Too bad it smelled like wet dog. Ah well, there's a cost associated with everything isn't there?
sweetcrude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #19
newfangled
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oliver
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
If the City were to encourge winter and ice tires through a program that would offer a $10 credit for each tire purchased thousands of drivers would make the switch.
I hate to say it, but I think this would have a really negligible effect. You'd be subsidizing $40 of a $400+ purchase. That not's enough of an incentive to make me take the plunge. Some people might be swayed, but mostly you'd just be giving $40 to people who would have bought snow tires regardless. (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the intent of what you're trying to do.)

This isn't like offering incentives on high-efficiency appliances where there's a longterm, year-over-year, quatifiable benfit to the owner. This is more like giving a $10 discount on $100 tornado insurance. Most people have already decided whether they need it or not, and it will take more than a small discount to change their minds.
newfangled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2008, 01:04 AM   #20
RiceKing
First One is Always Free
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
I was just in Portland Oregon and I noticed that about 20% of cars & trucks had studded tires. Portland itself gets very little snow and some ice rain but in the surrounding mountains they get lots of snow and ice. I looked specifically if there was any damage to road surfaces including concrete, asphalt and streetcar tracks and found no evidence of any affect.
PORTLAND:
It looks like the City of Portland has some crazy ice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPE8vL5hlFA

STUDDED TIRES:
Studs are legal in Alberta (year round) and most of Canada (http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/f.../tirestud.html).
I run Goodyear Nordics with studs on my pickup. It costs $18 each to stud at CDN Tire. A huge improvement in braking at icy intersections but the fishtailing and getting started on ice is still not great.

DAMAGE TO ROADS FROM STUDS:
I don't understand how my dinky studs can cause road damage but then they probably are not good for the road.

SALT & SAND:
Once I slipped and fell walking across a busy intersection. Very embarrassing. Maybe it would've helped if there was more sand or if I wore golf shoes or if I learned to walk?

SNOW TIRES REQUIRED:
For ice reasons maybe but for snow reasons it depends. I dunno if we get that much snow compared to the east;
My Mazda6 WAGON comes with factory 215/45R18 tires (yes factory 18" rims!). Useless in snow. Got stuck all the time. Switched to Goodyear Nordics and never got stuck.
My old Ford Tempo with cheapo skinny all seasons never got stuck in deep snow.

STORAGE FOR WINTER WHEELS:
I don't understand how everyone in Quebec, Sweden, Norway, etc have the room to store an extra set of tires? My 8 extra wheels take up a lot of space!

Rice
RiceKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2008, 09:38 AM   #21
finishstrong
Partially Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Parkview
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
it's not just the better traction (which is even more important on rear wheel drive cars) or the stopping distance. while they might be the same in some circumstances but won't be in all and it's not just the amount of snow or ice on the road. the biggest advantage with snow tires is not just in tread patterns but in tread compound - once the temperature drops, it is the tread compound in snow tires that will allow them to retain the traction and traction and stopping distance without getting slick and they will then outperform even the best all-seasons tire hands down. does that mean you "have to have them"? not for most of us most of the time but we shouldn't pretend that even the best all-seasons tire is always the equal of a decent snow tire - they aren't and driving like they are will only get you in trouble at some point.
Don't get me wrong here Ken, I run X-Ice's on my car and Nokian's on my truck. I'm a supporter of Winter Tires, I just think people are a little overly dependent on their Winter Tires, and their confidence level is falsely raised, and they drive outside of the Winter driving conditions which is just as dangerous. I understand that the compound differences allow the rubber of a Winter Tire to stay softer in cold weather which will considerably help with traction and braking within reason. I just believe that with safe winter driving, you'll be just fine with a good All-Season tire.
finishstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2008, 06:55 PM   #22
KC
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Default

I hate it when the radio guys start to say watch your speed folks - I think they are refering to those with worn down all-season tires that are essentially the same as a set of summer tires - something our parents would never drive with during the winter.

Market Place - did a couple shows on windter tires - one about 5- 6 years ago that was very good. The text was on their web site the last time I checked.
KC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2008, 10:18 PM   #23
Leendert
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Folsom, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
I hate it when the radio guys start to say watch your speed folks - I think they are refering to those with worn down all-season tires that are essentially the same as a set of summer tires - something our parents would never drive with during the winter.

Market Place - did a couple shows on windter tires - one about 5- 6 years ago that was very good. The text was on their web site the last time I checked.
Even with winter tires traction is still much worse with snow and ice covered roads than it would be under dry and bare conditions.

Too many people are too cavalier about the potential for damage and injury when operating motor vehicles - having radio announcers remind people to reduce speeds on slippery roads is a good thing in my opinion.
Leendert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-04-2008, 09:02 PM   #24
Edmonton PRT
Addicted to C2E
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Default April Blizzards

IMHO I have been monitoring road maintenance during this weekends April blizzard. First we had wet snow that froze to the warm roads, then lots of snow followed by drifting. I had already switched to 4 season tires and put away the Michelin ice raidials after getting a flat two weeks ago. I had no problem with the four season tires on ice, packed snow or through drifts 18" deep (50cm) with a Toyota Corolla.

The City really didn't start to plow or sand till noon on Saturday and then only that sugar beet mix or whatever it is because I think they didn't want to sweep it up in a week again. I noticed drivers were careful on the snow but immediately picked up speed over the posted limit where it was 'sanded'. The changing conditions IMHO were more dangerous than if they left it alone and just plowed.

Do you think it is more dangerous to sand and create patches of wet roads than just plowing?
__________________
Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.
Edmonton PRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.