The Government just fell. - Page 2

moahunter · 30-03-2011, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grish

^ Under a socialist sistem, a billionaire telecom owner and a social worker with a mortgage would have access to the same level of health care as one example.

Do the also get to live in the same house? Shelter is an essential, shouldn't they get the same level of shelter? You are cherry picking one issue that you care about, and claiming that represents what socialisim is.

grish · 30-03-2011, 08:33 AM

They do not get to live in the same house unless they choose to. Again, you are probably thinking of a US government movie from the 60's.

Shelter is essential. That is correct. So, if one of them looses their house, the rest of us should provide a shelter of some sort where they can be safe, warm, and fed. That is, everyone should be able to feel the same level of safety and warmth whether they choose to live in a 200sqft shoebox or a 200,000 sqft home. Community housing projects come to mind.

I am not cherry picking. Public Health, Public Education, Public Safety is really the main thing where socialism differs from, say, capitalism.

ralph60 · 30-03-2011, 10:25 PM

Canada has cherry picked the useful attributes of a socialist system such as universal health care and universal primary education. It has also maintained a robust and vital capitalist economy. This has been the balance that has served us well and given us an incredible standard of living for the last sixty years.
I think the difference in political outlooks between the parties is that the Conservatives want to grow the economy while the Liberals/NDP/Bloc/Greens want to milk it.

JBear · 31-03-2011, 08:32 AM

Can you elaborate on your last sentence please?

Sasquatch · 31-03-2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

Canada has cherry picked the useful attributes of a socialist system such as universal health care and universal primary education. It has also maintained a robust and vital capitalist economy. This has been the balance that has served us well and given us an incredible standard of living for the last sixty years.
I think the difference in political outlooks between the parties is that the Conservatives want to grow the economy while the Liberals/NDP/Bloc/Greens want to milk it.

So Ralph60 - which federal governments (tory, liberal, ndp) brought in those aforementioned "useful attributes" that has given Canada a "incredible standard of living for the last sixty years." ?

Here's a hint - the ndp were never a federal government.

ralph60 · 31-03-2011, 10:40 PM

Gee Sasquatch, thanks for the hint.
To elaborate on my point, this is the first point off of the Federal Liberals economic platform taken directly off their website:
"Cancelling Harper’s additional corporate tax breaks and restoring rates to 2010 levels. Canada already has the second lowest corporate tax rates in the G7 and 25% lower than the U.S. Canadian families deserve a break, not the largest corporations."
http://www.liberal.ca/issues/
The first bullet point off of the Conservatives economic platform taken directly from their website:
"work to keep taxes low"
http://www.conservative.ca/policy/budget_2009/

I'm not about to analyze their entire platforms, both parties offer platitudes about supporting motherhood issues but this illustrates their basic philosophies.
The Liberals and other left wing parties look at what they can take from the producing sector of society while Conservatives look for ways to make that sector grow.

Sasquatch, the "useful attributes"of which I spoke did not give us our incredible standard of living. They complement, and are derived from the wealth generated by the private sector. Health Care, Education and other social programs are simply services that we have chosen to have the government provide. With the exception of education they are all consumers of wealth, not generators of it.

Sasquatch · 31-03-2011, 11:34 PM

Ralph the conservatives inherited a budget surplus, just as the republicans inherited a budget surplus in the US and under these 'conservatives' they managed to turn them both into deficits. As well, when stevie took over from Paul, Canada was paying down the national debt. I just saw a forecast that our debt will soar into the 700= billion dollar range. Never mind that North America's economy is going from manufacturing to service industries like McDonald's. Maybe there is job creation but in positions that you worked in when you were young - jobs that pay 20,000/yr. That is pretty damn close to poverty. But hey corporations need tax cuts right. Ralph - I would agree a balance has to be struck between social and fiscal responsibility but good luck finding that with this meagreness of political parties. And we need to pay down our National Debt! Invest in education at all levels. What the hell to do with health care I have no idea (get canuks of the couch would be a starter). So many things more...

ralph60 · 01-04-2011, 08:34 AM

Lets turn the clock back to Dec. of 2008 where the coalition was trying to topple Harper's government,
To quote Liberal John McCullum:

"The coaltion deal includes a multibillion-dollar stimulus package for the troubled economy. Liberal MP John McCallum said the stimulus plan under consideration could include cheques for Canadian households as well as infrastructure spending and aid for the forestry and manufacturing sectors.

"One could do more there," he said of infrastructure. "Clearly there are difficulties in the manufacturing and forestry sectors. Clearly there is the possibility of money for individual Canadians."

Mr. McCallum also noted that a Liberal-led government would run a short-term deficit but be determined to balance the budget as quickly as possible."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...icle724889.ece

Memories are short, remember the government "being on probation" etc.
I will give credit where it is due. John Turner eliminated the deficit and deserves credit for it. He did it by holding spending steady and having the economy grow to the point where tax revenue matched spending. The key thing was holding spending steady. Now the Liberals want to re-open the taps and have corporations pay for it.
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/po...service=mobile

PrairieBoyinExile · 01-04-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

Lets turn the clock back to Dec. of 2008 where the coalition was trying to topple Harper's government,
To quote Liberal John McCullum:

"The coaltion deal includes a multibillion-dollar stimulus package for the troubled economy. Liberal MP John McCallum said the stimulus plan under consideration could include cheques for Canadian households as well as infrastructure spending and aid for the forestry and manufacturing sectors.

"One could do more there," he said of infrastructure. "Clearly there are difficulties in the manufacturing and forestry sectors. Clearly there is the possibility of money for individual Canadians."

Mr. McCallum also noted that a Liberal-led government would run a short-term deficit but be determined to balance the budget as quickly as possible."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...icle724889.ece

Memories are short, remember the government "being on probation" etc.
I will give credit where it is due. John Turner eliminated the deficit and deserves credit for it. He did it by holding spending steady and having the economy grow to the point where tax revenue matched spending. The key thing was holding spending steady. Now the Liberals want to re-open the taps and have corporations pay for it.
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/po...service=mobile

The Conservatives didn't have a multi-billion dollar stimulus program? Now they're talking about an expensive income splitting program, yet it's only the Liberals who want to "re-open the taps." You're a shining example of Conservative hypocrisy.

Although I personally don't have a problem with corporate tax cuts, I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving them at the 18% level, which is already competitive.

ralph60 · 02-04-2011, 12:44 AM

From the very same article:
"Liberal MP Martha Hall Findlay said that even if the Conservatives put forward an economic-stimulus package now, it would have no credibility and the opposition would reject it."
Your faulty memory and failure to read the link provided, doesn't justify calling me a hypocrite.
Income splitting is a tax cut, it isn't the same as a new spending program. Income splitting leaves money in the hands of people who earned it. A spending progam takes money from one person, flushes it through Ottawa and then gives some of it back to another person. These are perfect examples of Conservatives trying to grow the economy and Liberals milking it.

Sasquatch · 02-04-2011, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

From the very same article:
"Liberal MP Martha Hall Findlay said that even if the Conservatives put forward an economic-stimulus package now, it would have no credibility and the opposition would reject it."
Your faulty memory and failure to read the link provided, doesn't justify calling me a hypocrite.
Income splitting is a tax cut, it isn't the same as a new spending program. Income splitting leaves money in the hands of people who earned it. A spending progam takes money from one person, flushes it through Ottawa and then gives some of it back to another person. These are perfect examples of Conservatives trying to grow the economy and Liberals milking it.

Perhaps not - Maybe the difference between self less and greedy...

ralph60 · 02-04-2011, 12:22 PM

So somehow wanting to keep your own money is greedy but wanting to give one persons money to another is selfless?
That makes a lot of sense.

DiscoBandit · 02-04-2011, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

So somehow wanting to keep your own money is greedy but wanting to give one persons money to another is selfless?
That makes a lot of sense.

"**** you, I got mine." vs. "We're all in this together, if everyone gives a little we all benefit a lot."

Don't make it out to be anything other than that.

Sasquatch · 02-04-2011, 04:13 PM

Hey my parents always taught me that giving is better than receiving and you know what Ralph - my life has worked out pretty good

whynow99 · 02-04-2011, 04:28 PM

"The focus on the family by all parties turns youth off. Ignatieff and Layton seem far closer to educated youth with solid policy. All attempts to genuinely inform the young are good for democracy.
Why We Should Fear a Harper Majority?"

http://photosc.msspro.com/fedelect/harpermajority.htm

Click on the above link to read.

DiscoBandit · 02-04-2011, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Hey my parents always taught me that giving is better than receiving and you know what Ralph - my life has worked out pretty good

This is an old piece but relevant to this thread, The Fable of the Ant and Grasshopper
CLASSIC VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

THE CANADIAN MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the construction industry and hordes his goodies, the grasshopper works equally hard but at a desk job that Ant thinks isn't real work. The grasshopper pays more taxes than the ant and subsidizes a lot of social services the ant uses, and isn't very bitter about it since the grasshopper knows it's going to help out people (and would hope others would do the same, if she/he were in that position). However, the ant uses any chance to point out that his money is his and that other people just have to work harder rather than be parasites off of the backs of others.

Generally, the ant is considered to be kind of a jerk by many (and they avoid him at social gatherings since he sometimes smells kind of weird too) and the grasshopper ends up totally getting like three babes to ride around with him in a rocket car. The ant has a pinball machine and a really comfy couch but nobody will play/sit on it because he has no friends to come over.

Sasquatch · 02-04-2011, 05:42 PM

rocket cars and pinball machines lol

ralph60 · 03-04-2011, 10:04 PM

I think the left feels it's better to give than recieve if it's other people doing the giving.
There is never any public demonstration when corporate taxes are hiked, but try and raise tuition and it's like the end of the world.
Cut back anything in government and it's a threat to our way of life.
A Liberal Senator went on a hunger strike because cut the Katimavik youth program.
If it was ever everybody giving a little bit I wouldn't mind, but it's always the so-called rich, oil companies, Alberta and big corporations.

whynow99 · 03-04-2011, 10:58 PM

The CONS have NEVER balanced a budget.....Flarety left Ontario in a budget mess with the Harris government.....the Federal Liberals have been the Goverment about 75 percent of our Canadian history.....they cleaned up the CONS overspending time after time......time for the Liberals to clean up the CONS mess again..............the sooner the Liberals get voted in then the sooner we can get out of this Harper money mess debt. Harper is spending like a drunken sailor.........but at least drunken sailors spend their OWN money.

Get out and vote.............ABC.

Hilman · 03-04-2011, 11:49 PM

The Liberals are not the answer and might even lose seats this spring.

DiscoBandit · 04-04-2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

I think the left feels it's better to give than recieve if it's other people doing the giving.

According to the "Statistics Canada, Canada Survey of Giving, Volunteering and Participating", 84% of Canadians aged 15+ donated around $10,000,000. 46% of Canadians aged 15+ volunteered, accumulating about 2.1 billion hours all together (166 hours in a year). I fall within both the donating and the volunteering groups, I bust my butt for the betterment of society and live simply, so that others may simply live. Don't you even dare try to paint me or my colleagues as lazy, greedy, or parasites. I shouldn't even respond to another thing you say, simply for what you've said here.

Quote:

There is never any public demonstration when corporate taxes are hiked, but try and raise tuition and it's like the end of the world.

Good thing there's been talk and debate of lowering corporate taxes, otherwise you'd look silly! Further, tuition for Alberta rose 275% from $1,286 in the 90's to $4,828 in 2006-2007. Today? Nearly $6,000. Inflation and increased prices for -anything- certainly do not help with this.

Quote:

Cut back anything in government and it's a threat to our way of life.

Can you cite any huge protests about the cutting back of any government service, that genuinely wasn't going to be a b*tch to live without? Please do, I'd like to think you aren't just trying to, again, paint people who utilize the safety net of government services as lazy, terrible people.

Quote:

If it was ever everybody giving a little bit I wouldn't mind, but it's always the so-called rich, oil companies, Alberta and big corporations.

The "so-called rich", the oil companies, big corporations and even Alberta are in a better position to help out everyone with a meager hit to their own pockets. 5% of twenty billion, for example, is a lot easier to deal with than 5% of 8,000 a year. Of course it is going to be different, when you could have the entire lower and middle classes not have to pay taxes by barely raising it (and removing tax loopholes) for the upper elite and multi-national corporations.

ralph60 · 04-04-2011, 07:20 AM

The origin of Discobandit's Ant and Grasshopper fantasy:
Walter Mitty, the Grasshopper is waiting for the bus after his 8 hours at the Department of Redundancy Department.
Joe Lunchbucket, the Ant (in reality a boiler maker earning 200k annually working 9 months a year on shutdowns) cruises by in his new F350 with the "his and hers" Polaris Snowmachines on the back.
This throws Walter the Grasshopper into a fit of jealous rage and indignation so he retreats into his fantasy world of Science Fiction and Polygamy.
Joe Lunchbucket meanwhile heads back to his wife at the acreage, puts his snow machines into the three car garage and they pack for a quick two week trip to Cancun.

PrairieBoyinExile · 04-04-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

I think the left feels it's better to give than recieve if it's other people doing the giving.
There is never any public demonstration when corporate taxes are hiked, but try and raise tuition and it's like the end of the world.
Cut back anything in government and it's a threat to our way of life.
A Liberal Senator went on a hunger strike because cut the Katimavik youth program.
If it was ever everybody giving a little bit I wouldn't mind, but it's always the so-called rich, oil companies, Alberta and big corporations.

I suppose this oil company wealth is just created out of thin air. Funny, I thought it came from the exploitation of a publicly owned resource. You seem to live in Harper's alternate reality.

MrOilers · 04-04-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whynow99

The CONS have NEVER balanced a budget.

Yes they have. Multiple times, in fact.

DiscoBandit · 04-04-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

The origin of Discobandit's Ant and Grasshopper fantasy:
Walter Mitty, the Grasshopper is waiting for the bus after his 8 hours at the Department of Redundancy Department.
Joe Lunchbucket, the Ant (in reality a boiler maker earning 200k annually working 9 months a year on shutdowns) cruises by in his new F350 with the "his and hers" Polaris Snowmachines on the back.
This throws Walter the Grasshopper into a fit of jealous rage and indignation so he retreats into his fantasy world of Science Fiction and Polygamy.
Joe Lunchbucket meanwhile heads back to his wife at the acreage, puts his snow machines into the three car garage and they pack for a quick two week trip to Cancun.

Mine was much better. Your version doesn't even have a rocket car or babes.

Your arguments in other posts are now deemed invalid and you must also wear a badge of shame.

ralph60 · 05-04-2011, 11:13 AM

Go back to your fantasy world.

DiscoBandit · 05-04-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

Go back to your fantasy world.

Though I appreciate the critique of my satirical interpretation of your post on the first page, I would rather you reply to my more serious message just a couple of posts up.

ralph60 · 06-04-2011, 09:32 AM

Michael Ignatieff "Being an American is not easy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49We8...layer_embedded

ralph60 · 06-04-2011, 12:34 PM

Disco Bandit, far be it for me to disparage a volunteer's efforts but come on: " I bust my butt for the betterment of society and live simply, so that others may simply live". Unless you are a volunteer with Physicians without Borders I find it hard to believe that your efforts are so critical that you're out there literally saving lives. If you are, you have my complete admiration but I've done lots of volunteer work but I'm not so full of myself that I think I'm saving lives.
The rest of your post actually confirms my position. You offer excuses for student protests and protests against government cuts then you try and justify raising taxes on specific groups.
Like I said, don't cut anything that affects me and tax the rich. Typical Liberal, spend other peoples money and call it compassion.

moahunter · 06-04-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

Michael Ignatieff "Being an American is not easy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49We8...layer_embedded

That's hilarious, its like he completely forgot he was Canadian, or had decided that he didn't want to be Canadian anymore.

glasshead · 06-04-2011, 01:20 PM

I think Harper is confused about being Canadian too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXGwr3nr7g

DiscoBandit · 06-04-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

Disco Bandit, far be it for me to disparage a volunteer's efforts but come on: " I bust my butt for the betterment of society and live simply, so that others may simply live". Unless you are a volunteer with Physicians without Borders I find it hard to believe that your efforts are so critical that you're out there literally saving lives. If you are, you have my complete admiration but I've done lots of volunteer work but I'm not so full of myself that I think I'm saving lives.

Hey, good deflection! It almost takes attention away from you being really abrasive and wrong about volunteers and donations within Canada, and not having acknowledged this fact. Almost.

Anyways, I save lives. Admire away.

Quote:

The rest of your post actually confirms my position. You offer excuses for student protests and protests against government cuts then you try and justify raising taxes on specific groups.

If you're willing to discuss my points rather than just say they're invalid and brush them aside, then we can continue this discussion. Until that point, this is not a discussion and I will not continue it with you.

Quote:

Like I said, don't cut anything that affects me and tax the rich. Typical Liberal, spend other peoples money and call it compassion.

I'm not actually a liberal, but good going anyways with the stereotypes. I appreciate that you think you know me well enough to say those kinds of things, but I don't feel you actually do and would like you to wait until such a point when you're more familiar with my person before beginning to assign a label.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

Michael Ignatieff "Being an American is not easy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49We8...layer_embedded

What I hear you saying is "Ignatieff is an outsider! He lived in other countries, and has experiences from having lived there! Outsiders are bad! Ignatieff is bad because he is an outsider! Outsiders scary OOGA BOOGA BOOGA."

Thanks for that, immigrants everywhere appreciate it.

Gemini · 06-04-2011, 03:31 PM

Outsider or not Iggy still cannot get any traction.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1973554/

ralph60 · 06-04-2011, 03:43 PM

DiscoBandit, so 84 % of Canadians donate and 46% volunteer. So what? By the fact that 84% donate it makes it unexceptional.
What about "discussing your points"? I stated that everytime theres a cut, the special interests protest and you justified the protests. Thanks for agreeing with me.
I guess I should apologize for calling you a Liberal, I'm glad to see you consider that an insult.

moahunter · 06-04-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscoBandit

What I hear you saying is "Ignatieff is an outsider! He lived in other countries, and has experiences from having lived there! Outsiders are bad! Ignatieff is bad because he is an outsider! Outsiders scary OOGA BOOGA BOOGA."

I don't have a problem with someone from another country being a politician, but you have to worry about someones loyalty to Canada / general honesty, when they go live in another country, and start making speaches which portray themselves as a citizen of that new country. Its sort of funny that you often see this "anti-american" sentiment in the left, but then, you have a leader of the left who thought of himself (or pretended to be) as an American.

DiscoBandit · 07-04-2011, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moahunter

I don't have a problem with someone from another country being a politician, but you have to worry about someones loyalty to Canada / general honesty, when they go live in another country, and start making speaches which portray themselves as a citizen of that new country.

Why should that raise questions to his loyalty to Canada? He lived in the US long enough to justify saying these things about being an American, and it in no-way at all makes him unable to lead the country. If he's just hunting opportunity, he could've easily bought his way into power in the US (plenty of other people have). The idea of him having moved to Canada to work hard running unsuccessful campaigns to win parliament for the liberals as "opportunistic" is ridiculous.

Quote:

Its sort of funny that you often see this "anti-american" sentiment in the left, but then, you have a leader of the left who thought of himself (or pretended to be) as an American.

As an American myself, let me assure you that you often see this "anti-american sentiment" from anyone in Canada, until there's an American around. It isn't special to one group :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

DiscoBandit, so 84 % of Canadians donate and 46% volunteer. So what? By the fact that 84% donate it makes it unexceptional.
What about "discussing your points"? I stated that everytime theres a cut, the special interests protest and you justified the protests. Thanks for agreeing with me.
I guess I should apologize for calling you a Liberal, I'm glad to see you consider that an insult.

I'm glad to see you only have one mode

Typical *****, can't discuss things without trying to get the upperhand or "win" rather than just talk. Keep on keeping on, I'm happy to see how far that complete admiration that I've earned goes.

ralph60 · 09-04-2011, 09:26 AM

Disco Bandit,
you summarize my opinion as "**** you, I got mine." and you call me a *****?
I posted Ignatieff's speech to show that this is a man who will say anything to win approval. I am the least Un-American you will find. I don't have a fear of outsiders I have disdain for slick opportunists. So you know where you can stick your Ooga Booga.

DiscoBandit · 09-04-2011, 11:09 AM

^^^Maybe I wasn't clear last time. You're not talking like an adult, there's nothing that can change your mind, and you're only interested in winning or scoring cheap points. I'm not discussing things further with you, and I only call you a ***** out of concern. If you aren't, then I'm deeply sorry that you are actually that abrasive.

ralph60 · 14-04-2011, 06:32 PM

/\I find it hilarious that you feign concern over my abrasiveness when you post comments like calling my position "****you, I got mine"
You also take my comments, translate them into what you consider they mean, write in capital letters and then again call me abrasive.
I posted a video showing Ignatieff claiming to be an American and this is what you post in reply:

"What I hear you saying is "Ignatieff is an outsider! He lived in other countries, and has experiences from having lived there! Outsiders are bad! Ignatieff is bad because he is an outsider! Outsiders scary OOGA BOOGA BOOGA.""

Five exclamation points and capital letters, all text made up in your imagination, then you call me abrasive and state "I'm not discussing things further with you".
You haven't discussed anything with me yet. You've stated your own impressions and stereotypes of people who hold opposing political views.
This conservative is not selfish, anti-American or Xenophobic in any way.
I simply feel that Canada has an extensive and adequate network of social programs that do not require expansion. I think that the best way to ensure our living standard is maintained into the future is to nourish the private economy, not milk it. And personally I will not hesitate to call B.S. when people state things I believe to be untrue.
I constantly see people on the left claiming to be compassionate when in fact they just want more opportunities to spend other peoples money. When I see this I call B.S.
I see Ignatieff as an opportunist with little commitment to Canada. The Liberals have never hesitated to sacrifice Alberta on the altar of obtaining power and they are doing it again with cap and trade and a west coast tanker ban.
These are a few of my beliefs open for discussion. If you wish to respond, go ahead, just don't try and translate them into your impressions, you didn't have a clue as to what I was thinking. Your impressions and translations just exposed your narrow mindedness and the prejudicial stereotypes you carry.

JBear · 14-04-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

I constantly see people on the left claiming to be compassionate when in fact they just want more opportunities to spend other peoples money. When I see this I call B.S.

haha yes, that is all the left wants to do... their whole premise is to spend other people's (mind you their money as well) money! Usually expanding programs is akin to seeing a sick puppy and wanting to help it. Sometimes the puppy is trained to act sick or injured and is just making another sucker. Sometimes the puppy is truly sick and does need help, but where do you stop the line and say "hey! This puppy has received help but now it needs to start helping itself".

For the record, as of today I am not sure who I am going to vote for. The PC's seem to be the most financially sound but Harper and the gov't are so closed off it's scary; plus their attack ads really turn me off. They are attacking a sole individual with lines that HAVE TO BE taken out of context. Heck! Even if they aren't out of context, there is a much better tact to take than American style attack ads. It really does sicken me because I really do want to know what their platforms are without having to go around in circles. Just straight out tell me what you are going to do! Do your little Blue Book Action Plan if you get back in gov't. I want something in writing telling me what you are going to do. So I can go back and checkmark what has been done, and what hasn't, and why it wasn't done. But instead we get this crap!

The liberals are not getting my vote because I still don't trust them. The ADScam really left a bitter taste in my mouth and showed of arrogance. And AGAIN they talk of cancelling another PC purchase (fighter jets), which would result in high penalties again, probably.

I was impressed with Layton in the debate. Though I think he might be wanting to spend a little too much money we don't have. I think it is about time that we show the Liberals and Conservatives that this country is not a 2 party country. We also have to show Conservatives that they too can form a second party further down the right wing and possibly expect results. There are as of right now, too many left leaning parties, which is probably why the PC's have managed to stay in party this long.

North Guy66 · 14-04-2011, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBear

For the record, as of today I am not sure who I am going to vote for.

Depends on what riding you live in. Try to find which candidate can best promote Edmonton's interest.

If you live in Peter Goldring's riding (Edmonton-East) then don't vote Conservative because he does not deserve to be re-elected.

If you live in Edmonton-Strathcona vote for Linda Duncan.

DiscoBandit · 14-04-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

words

This is not a discussion and you're seeing to that by continuing to attack me rather than talk like an adult. Again, I'm not going to continue it with you. Rationalize it how you want, but you're simply being too abrasive to discuss things rationally with. You say things like "they just want more opportunities to spend other peoples money." and wonder where this reaction comes from?

You don't even care, you just want to win. Gosh buddy, get over it.

ralph60 · 15-04-2011, 09:00 AM

Discobandit,
I rationally laid out a number of my guiding principles and invited your comment.
My attacks on you are simply replies to your attacks on me.
I have stated quite simply a number of my (small c) conservative principles, I invite you to respond to them with a reasoned counter arguement that doesn't involve your translating of my ideas into what you think they really mean.
Yes they are words, words guided by rational thought and principles.

DiscoBandit · 15-04-2011, 11:01 AM

You've already proven to me what kind of person you are, and you've already said what kind of person you think I am (want to spend other people's money, lazy, parasite, etc.) I'm not going to entertain a discussion with you. Too little, too late, but I know not to waste time with you and that discussing things with other people is a better way to spend my time. Thank you for that! It's always good to figure out different personalities on a forum I'm still sort of new to, and which ones are the toxic people to avoid. If you're interested, you should consider looking into the post history of Mroilers or moahunter and try to understand why there isn't a similar reaction to their opinions like there is to yours.

ralph60 · 16-04-2011, 11:37 AM

/\ Discobandit, again you are imagining things I have said. Show me once where I have called you lazy or a parasite.
My comment about liberals spending other peoples money and calling it compassion is a legitimate opinion. It isn't slanderous or abusive, it's a legitimate summary of their election strategy.
You have repeatedly paraphrased my statements into something abusive and then complain that I'm abusive.
You are the one who used "****you, I've got mine"
You are the one who came up with the "OOGA BOOOGA" B.S.
And you imagine I called you "lazy and a parasite".
I vehemently disagree with the federal left wing, I'm not going to cede the moral highground to the left, they've neither earned it or deserve it.
If you don't like the critcism thats too bad, but don't invent things and complain that I said them.

DiscoBandit · 16-04-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

/\ Discobandit, again you are imagining things I have said. Show me once where I have called you lazy or a parasite.
My comment about liberals spending other peoples money and calling it compassion is a legitimate opinion. It isn't slanderous or abusive, it's a legitimate summary of their election strategy.
You have repeatedly paraphrased my statements into something abusive and then complain that I'm abusive.
You are the one who used "****you, I've got mine"
You are the one who came up with the "OOGA BOOOGA" B.S.
And you imagine I called you "lazy and a parasite".
I vehemently disagree with the federal left wing, I'm not going to cede the moral highground to the left, they've neither earned it or deserve it.
If you don't like the critcism thats too bad, but don't invent things and complain that I said them.

You've already proven to me what kind of person you are, and you've already said what kind of person you think I am (want to spend other people's money, lazy, parasite, etc.) I'm not going to entertain a discussion with you. Too little, too late, but I know not to waste time with you and that discussing things with other people is a better way to spend my time. Thank you for that! It's always good to figure out different personalities on a forum I'm still sort of new to, and which ones are the toxic people to avoid. If you're interested, you should consider looking into the post history of Mroilers or moahunter and try to understand why there isn't a similar reaction to their opinions like there is to yours.

ralph60 · 16-04-2011, 03:57 PM

I guess your imagination needs no defense.

DiscoBandit · 16-04-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph60

I guess your imagination needs no defense.

This may put it into perspective for you.

How long are you going to attack someone who wants nothing to do with you? Move along, friend.

ralph60 · 17-04-2011, 11:28 PM

/\ Show me where I called you lazy and a parasite.
As long as you keep making things up I won't move along.

DiscoBandit · 18-04-2011, 12:43 AM

Heehee. You just keep going, don't you? It's all in this thread (from your many posts implying the left is to live off of the work of others, to solely wanting to spend their money). If you can't see, then I don't even see why you want to have a discussion about it, you'd obviously get nothing out of it.

etownboarder · 18-04-2011, 01:08 AM

Enough with the back and forth already. Nobody cares.

anduin · 18-04-2011, 02:48 AM

Didnt vote in the past election but Im going to this time, tired of this nonsense, need a majority government once and for all and Liberals are looking terrible this time around.

ralph60 · 18-04-2011, 10:55 AM

I just saw the greatest political ad of all time.
The Liberals are warning that Stephen Harper is planning "MASSIVE CUTS TO HEALTH CARE SPENDING increases"
The desperation is obvious.
Next they will probably be saying that Prime Minister Harper will have armed soldiers on our streets.

grish · 18-04-2011, 11:01 AM

you cannot say, however, that the libs have invented these tactics. harper has been barking "coalition", "quebec separatism" and several other ridiculous lines for years now. If you are going to believe one, you should believe them all.

etownboarder · 18-04-2011, 11:02 AM

OMG... Using Quebec Separatism as a scare tactic was a new low for Harper.

ralph60 · 18-04-2011, 11:09 AM

Grish, you're absolutely right. Both the Conservatives and Liberals have been pathetic in their use of negative advertising.

JBear · 18-04-2011, 11:10 AM

Can I ask why Quebec has a Bloc Quebecois but there is no Bloc Alberta party? (Probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference anyways); or

No Block Western Provinces party?

ralph60 · 18-04-2011, 11:23 AM

There have been numerous western seperatist parties in the past 40 years, but they have never gained any real traction.
I think the reason is that Albertan's for the most part don't consider the federal government overly relevant.
I think we are proud Canadians who typically don't ask for anything from the Feds except to be left alone. Since we have never fed from the Federal trough, we don't think to ask for more.
The only time Alberta seperatism ever gained any strength was when the Liberals deliberately tried to screw us with the NEP. Even this only resulted in a slight uptick in seperatist feelings.

30-03-2011, 08:33 AM	#102
grish Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006	They do not get to live in the same house unless they choose to. Again, you are probably thinking of a US government movie from the 60's. Shelter is essential. That is correct. So, if one of them looses their house, the rest of us should provide a shelter of some sort where they can be safe, warm, and fed. That is, everyone should be able to feel the same level of safety and warmth whether they choose to live in a 200sqft shoebox or a 200,000 sqft home. Community housing projects come to mind. I am not cherry picking. Public Health, Public Education, Public Safety is really the main thing where socialism differs from, say, capitalism. __________________ My name is Gregory B.

31-03-2011, 11:34 PM	#107
Sasquatch Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cottage Country - Ontario.	Ralph the conservatives inherited a budget surplus, just as the republicans inherited a budget surplus in the US and under these 'conservatives' they managed to turn them both into deficits. As well, when stevie took over from Paul, Canada was paying down the national debt. I just saw a forecast that our debt will soar into the 700= billion dollar range. Never mind that North America's economy is going from manufacturing to service industries like McDonald's. Maybe there is job creation but in positions that you worked in when you were young - jobs that pay 20,000/yr. That is pretty damn close to poverty. But hey corporations need tax cuts right. Ralph - I would agree a balance has to be struck between social and fiscal responsibility but good luck finding that with this meagreness of political parties. And we need to pay down our National Debt! Invest in education at all levels. What the hell to do with health care I have no idea (get canuks of the couch would be a starter). So many things more... __________________ If the risk is little, the reward is little. Last edited by Sasquatch; 31-03-2011 at 11:45 PM..

02-04-2011, 04:13 PM	#114
Sasquatch Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cottage Country - Ontario.	Hey my parents always taught me that giving is better than receiving and you know what Ralph - my life has worked out pretty good __________________ If the risk is little, the reward is little.

02-04-2011, 04:28 PM	#115
whynow99 Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Apr 2009	"The focus on the family by all parties turns youth off. Ignatieff and Layton seem far closer to educated youth with solid policy. All attempts to genuinely inform the young are good for democracy. Why We Should Fear a Harper Majority?" http://photosc.msspro.com/fedelect/harpermajority.htm Click on the above link to read. __________________ Dave Rutherford is a small, small person....sucking up to get a Government appointment obviously.

02-04-2011, 05:42 PM	#117
Sasquatch Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: May 2006 Location: Cottage Country - Ontario.	rocket cars and pinball machines lol __________________ If the risk is little, the reward is little.

30-03-2011, 10:25 PM	#103
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Canada has cherry picked the useful attributes of a socialist system such as universal health care and universal primary education. It has also maintained a robust and vital capitalist economy. This has been the balance that has served us well and given us an incredible standard of living for the last sixty years. I think the difference in political outlooks between the parties is that the Conservatives want to grow the economy while the Liberals/NDP/Bloc/Greens want to milk it.

31-03-2011, 08:32 AM	#104
JBear Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Back in E-Town!	Can you elaborate on your last sentence please?

31-03-2011, 10:40 PM	#106
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Gee Sasquatch, thanks for the hint. To elaborate on my point, this is the first point off of the Federal Liberals economic platform taken directly off their website: "Cancelling Harper’s additional corporate tax breaks and restoring rates to 2010 levels. Canada already has the second lowest corporate tax rates in the G7 and 25% lower than the U.S. Canadian families deserve a break, not the largest corporations." http://www.liberal.ca/issues/ The first bullet point off of the Conservatives economic platform taken directly from their website: "work to keep taxes low" http://www.conservative.ca/policy/budget_2009/ I'm not about to analyze their entire platforms, both parties offer platitudes about supporting motherhood issues but this illustrates their basic philosophies. The Liberals and other left wing parties look at what they can take from the producing sector of society while Conservatives look for ways to make that sector grow. Sasquatch, the "useful attributes"of which I spoke did not give us our incredible standard of living. They complement, and are derived from the wealth generated by the private sector. Health Care, Education and other social programs are simply services that we have chosen to have the government provide. With the exception of education they are all consumers of wealth, not generators of it.

01-04-2011, 08:34 AM	#108
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Lets turn the clock back to Dec. of 2008 where the coalition was trying to topple Harper's government, To quote Liberal John McCullum: "The coaltion deal includes a multibillion-dollar stimulus package for the troubled economy. Liberal MP John McCallum said the stimulus plan under consideration could include cheques for Canadian households as well as infrastructure spending and aid for the forestry and manufacturing sectors. "One could do more there," he said of infrastructure. "Clearly there are difficulties in the manufacturing and forestry sectors. Clearly there is the possibility of money for individual Canadians." Mr. McCallum also noted that a Liberal-led government would run a short-term deficit but be determined to balance the budget as quickly as possible." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...icle724889.ece Memories are short, remember the government "being on probation" etc. I will give credit where it is due. John Turner eliminated the deficit and deserves credit for it. He did it by holding spending steady and having the economy grow to the point where tax revenue matched spending. The key thing was holding spending steady. Now the Liberals want to re-open the taps and have corporations pay for it. http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/po...service=mobile

02-04-2011, 12:44 AM	#110
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	From the very same article: "Liberal MP Martha Hall Findlay said that even if the Conservatives put forward an economic-stimulus package now, it would have no credibility and the opposition would reject it." Your faulty memory and failure to read the link provided, doesn't justify calling me a hypocrite. Income splitting is a tax cut, it isn't the same as a new spending program. Income splitting leaves money in the hands of people who earned it. A spending progam takes money from one person, flushes it through Ottawa and then gives some of it back to another person. These are perfect examples of Conservatives trying to grow the economy and Liberals milking it.

02-04-2011, 12:22 PM	#112
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	So somehow wanting to keep your own money is greedy but wanting to give one persons money to another is selfless? That makes a lot of sense.

03-04-2011, 10:04 PM	#118
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	I think the left feels it's better to give than recieve if it's other people doing the giving. There is never any public demonstration when corporate taxes are hiked, but try and raise tuition and it's like the end of the world. Cut back anything in government and it's a threat to our way of life. A Liberal Senator went on a hunger strike because cut the Katimavik youth program. If it was ever everybody giving a little bit I wouldn't mind, but it's always the so-called rich, oil companies, Alberta and big corporations.

03-04-2011, 10:58 PM	#119
whynow99 Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Apr 2009	The CONS have NEVER balanced a budget.....Flarety left Ontario in a budget mess with the Harris government.....the Federal Liberals have been the Goverment about 75 percent of our Canadian history.....they cleaned up the CONS overspending time after time......time for the Liberals to clean up the CONS mess again..............the sooner the Liberals get voted in then the sooner we can get out of this Harper money mess debt. Harper is spending like a drunken sailor.........but at least drunken sailors spend their OWN money. Get out and vote.............ABC. __________________ Dave Rutherford is a small, small person....sucking up to get a Government appointment obviously.

03-04-2011, 11:49 PM	#120
Hilman Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ozerna, North Edmonton	The Liberals are not the answer and might even lose seats this spring.

04-04-2011, 07:20 AM	#122
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	The origin of Discobandit's Ant and Grasshopper fantasy: Walter Mitty, the Grasshopper is waiting for the bus after his 8 hours at the Department of Redundancy Department. Joe Lunchbucket, the Ant (in reality a boiler maker earning 200k annually working 9 months a year on shutdowns) cruises by in his new F350 with the "his and hers" Polaris Snowmachines on the back. This throws Walter the Grasshopper into a fit of jealous rage and indignation so he retreats into his fantasy world of Science Fiction and Polygamy. Joe Lunchbucket meanwhile heads back to his wife at the acreage, puts his snow machines into the three car garage and they pack for a quick two week trip to Cancun.

05-04-2011, 11:13 AM	#126
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Go back to your fantasy world.

06-04-2011, 09:32 AM	#128
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Michael Ignatieff "Being an American is not easy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49We8...layer_embedded

06-04-2011, 12:34 PM	#129
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Disco Bandit, far be it for me to disparage a volunteer's efforts but come on: " I bust my butt for the betterment of society and live simply, so that others may simply live". Unless you are a volunteer with Physicians without Borders I find it hard to believe that your efforts are so critical that you're out there literally saving lives. If you are, you have my complete admiration but I've done lots of volunteer work but I'm not so full of myself that I think I'm saving lives. The rest of your post actually confirms my position. You offer excuses for student protests and protests against government cuts then you try and justify raising taxes on specific groups. Like I said, don't cut anything that affects me and tax the rich. Typical Liberal, spend other peoples money and call it compassion.

06-04-2011, 01:20 PM	#131
glasshead Addicted to C2E Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Vancouver	I think Harper is confused about being Canadian too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXGwr3nr7g

06-04-2011, 03:31 PM	#133
Gemini Addicted to C2E Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Edmonton	Outsider or not Iggy still cannot get any traction. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1973554/ __________________ If a man is standing in the middle of a forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

06-04-2011, 03:43 PM	#134
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	DiscoBandit, so 84 % of Canadians donate and 46% volunteer. So what? By the fact that 84% donate it makes it unexceptional. What about "discussing your points"? I stated that everytime theres a cut, the special interests protest and you justified the protests. Thanks for agreeing with me. I guess I should apologize for calling you a Liberal, I'm glad to see you consider that an insult.

09-04-2011, 09:26 AM	#137
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Disco Bandit, you summarize my opinion as "** you, I got mine." and you call me a ***? I posted Ignatieff's speech to show that this is a man who will say anything to win approval. I am the least Un-American you will find. I don't have a fear of outsiders I have disdain for slick opportunists. So you know where you can stick your Ooga Booga.

09-04-2011, 11:09 AM	#138
DiscoBandit Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Aug 2010	^^^Maybe I wasn't clear last time. You're not talking like an adult, there's nothing that can change your mind, and you're only interested in winning or scoring cheap points. I'm not discussing things further with you, and I only call you a ***** out of concern. If you aren't, then I'm deeply sorry that you are actually that abrasive.

14-04-2011, 06:32 PM	#139
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	/\I find it hilarious that you feign concern over my abrasiveness when you post comments like calling my position "****you, I got mine" You also take my comments, translate them into what you consider they mean, write in capital letters and then again call me abrasive. I posted a video showing Ignatieff claiming to be an American and this is what you post in reply: "What I hear you saying is "Ignatieff is an outsider! He lived in other countries, and has experiences from having lived there! Outsiders are bad! Ignatieff is bad because he is an outsider! Outsiders scary OOGA BOOGA BOOGA."" Five exclamation points and capital letters, all text made up in your imagination, then you call me abrasive and state "I'm not discussing things further with you". You haven't discussed anything with me yet. You've stated your own impressions and stereotypes of people who hold opposing political views. This conservative is not selfish, anti-American or Xenophobic in any way. I simply feel that Canada has an extensive and adequate network of social programs that do not require expansion. I think that the best way to ensure our living standard is maintained into the future is to nourish the private economy, not milk it. And personally I will not hesitate to call B.S. when people state things I believe to be untrue. I constantly see people on the left claiming to be compassionate when in fact they just want more opportunities to spend other peoples money. When I see this I call B.S. I see Ignatieff as an opportunist with little commitment to Canada. The Liberals have never hesitated to sacrifice Alberta on the altar of obtaining power and they are doing it again with cap and trade and a west coast tanker ban. These are a few of my beliefs open for discussion. If you wish to respond, go ahead, just don't try and translate them into your impressions, you didn't have a clue as to what I was thinking. Your impressions and translations just exposed your narrow mindedness and the prejudicial stereotypes you carry.

15-04-2011, 09:00 AM	#143
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	Discobandit, I rationally laid out a number of my guiding principles and invited your comment. My attacks on you are simply replies to your attacks on me. I have stated quite simply a number of my (small c) conservative principles, I invite you to respond to them with a reasoned counter arguement that doesn't involve your translating of my ideas into what you think they really mean. Yes they are words, words guided by rational thought and principles.

15-04-2011, 11:01 AM	#144
DiscoBandit Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Aug 2010	You've already proven to me what kind of person you are, and you've already said what kind of person you think I am (want to spend other people's money, lazy, parasite, etc.) I'm not going to entertain a discussion with you. Too little, too late, but I know not to waste time with you and that discussing things with other people is a better way to spend my time. Thank you for that! It's always good to figure out different personalities on a forum I'm still sort of new to, and which ones are the toxic people to avoid. If you're interested, you should consider looking into the post history of Mroilers or moahunter and try to understand why there isn't a similar reaction to their opinions like there is to yours.

16-04-2011, 11:37 AM	#145
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	/\ Discobandit, again you are imagining things I have said. Show me once where I have called you lazy or a parasite. My comment about liberals spending other peoples money and calling it compassion is a legitimate opinion. It isn't slanderous or abusive, it's a legitimate summary of their election strategy. You have repeatedly paraphrased my statements into something abusive and then complain that I'm abusive. You are the one who used "****you, I've got mine" You are the one who came up with the "OOGA BOOOGA" B.S. And you imagine I called you "lazy and a parasite". I vehemently disagree with the federal left wing, I'm not going to cede the moral highground to the left, they've neither earned it or deserve it. If you don't like the critcism thats too bad, but don't invent things and complain that I said them.

16-04-2011, 03:57 PM	#147
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	I guess your imagination needs no defense.

17-04-2011, 11:28 PM	#149
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	/\ Show me where I called you lazy and a parasite. As long as you keep making things up I won't move along.

18-04-2011, 12:43 AM	#150
DiscoBandit Partially Addicted to C2E Join Date: Aug 2010	Heehee. You just keep going, don't you? It's all in this thread (from your many posts implying the left is to live off of the work of others, to solely wanting to spend their money). If you can't see, then I don't even see why you want to have a discussion about it, you'd obviously get nothing out of it.

18-04-2011, 01:08 AM	#151
etownboarder Addicted to C2E Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Old Strathcona	Enough with the back and forth already. Nobody cares.

18-04-2011, 02:48 AM	#152
anduin First One is Always Free Join Date: Jun 2009	Didnt vote in the past election but Im going to this time, tired of this nonsense, need a majority government once and for all and Liberals are looking terrible this time around.

18-04-2011, 10:55 AM	#153
ralph60 Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St. Albert	I just saw the greatest political ad of all time. The Liberals are warning that Stephen Harper is planning "MASSIVE CUTS TO HEALTH CARE SPENDING increases" The desperation is obvious. Next they will probably be saying that Prime Minister Harper will have armed soldiers on our streets.

18-04-2011, 11:01 AM	#154
grish Addicted to C2E Join Date: Mar 2006	you cannot say, however, that the libs have invented these tactics. harper has been barking "coalition", "quebec separatism" and several other ridiculous lines for years now. If you are going to believe one, you should believe them all. __________________ My name is Gregory B.

18-04-2011, 11:02 AM	#155
etownboarder Addicted to C2E Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Old Strathcona	OMG... Using Quebec Separatism as a scare tactic was a new low for Harper.