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Real-Estate & Development This forum looks at specific real estate projects and developments - past, present, and future - in the Edmonton area. Here’s where to look for updates on developments, read about new projects, suggest improvements to buildings or other projects.


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Old 11-04-2012, 10:57 AM   #1001
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^product, design, LRT. I do agree it kinda sucks right now and again, I would not buy in either personally... but I don't need to go into that.

It is selling incredibly well and the SW will continue to do so, but outside of the valley/golf/AHD, it leaves a lot to be desired IMO.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:20 AM   #1002
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^with the constant changes in design, rumors of a rental tower, and very slow build out relative to other suburban developments in the city (e.g. the Windermere examples), you would have to have a screw loose to buy one of the remaining units (or receive a fantastic discount I guess).
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:28 AM   #1003
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I'd buy into CP if there was a reasonable connection to the LRT... right now, you have to walk all the way around the whole development...

At least windermere has valley/golf/AHD... CP barely even has LRT... which was big selling point... but they seem to forget that people who live there now might want to enjoy those luxuries... even a dirt path to the LRT station through the development... but nope... they have it all fenced off. I wonder why its selling so slowly...
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #1004
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I wonder about the logic of placing a "luxury" development near the LRT. The people would most appreciate ready access to transit are those who don't have assigned parking downtown which are rarely the upper management.

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Old 11-04-2012, 12:00 PM   #1005
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^Once an efficient transit network is built, 'upper management types' will also take transit. Personally, if I owned a car and lived in CP, working downtown I would much rather take the LRT. Don't have to worry about traffic jams, navigating to the parking stall... rather than hop on the train and be within easy walking distance to almost everywhere Downtown. You also save money not parking downtown.
In Madrid this was VERY common with young professional types who didn't want to live in the noisy city centre, and still had a car to use on weekends/out of town trips. They had no problem taking the Metro to the city centre.. Look at Vancouver as a more close to home example with all of the condos popping up all over around Skytrain stations.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:05 PM   #1006
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The problem with CP right now though is that it is inconvenient to get to the LRT station from the current buildings. Now if your located in the building next to Safeway then there is more or less a direct path to the station otherwise it is quite a walk to go around the fence. I say if they could simply open up one passage through the middle of the fence it would make getting to the LRT station much much easier.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:35 PM   #1007
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^developers who care about their former condo customers, don't:

- lease land for a ParkNride next door
- consider building a rental tower (which will compete with those former customers who rent out)
- keep changing the development plans / delaying promised facilities
- build handy walking paths.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:14 AM   #1008
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^Have you driven by ION? do so and tell me how appealing its location is, how 'close' to the valley it is and if you get a nice view of Walmart.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and likewise the proof of the development is in the selling.

It looks like the market has already answered your question.

Question for you IanO: if Century Park is so gosh darn wonderful why haven't people bought all the units and or pre-bought enough units to start building the next tower?

PS using the rescission probably doesn't hold much water as other condo units in the south west have pre sold enough to start construction since Century Park has stalled.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:14 AM   #1009
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^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:13 PM   #1010
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^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?
I can walk into the foyer at CP and stand there detecting shoddy workmanship and I haven't been in the construction industry for decades.

I'd start with asking who the trained monkeys were that did the "stonework" in the foyers. Combination of bad selection of material and basic "parging" of joints that are a lot wider than they should be in many instances and huge gap filler in other joints. Looks like the person doing this slapped it up anyway they could and with little notion of how to actually fit the stones. Just looks awful. Amateur stonework.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:00 PM   #1011
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So, does anyone have any other suggestions for me other than CP or the Ion?

What about in Old Strathcona / Whyte Ave area?
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:37 PM   #1012
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CP is a much better design than anything in the SW and it is at the doorstep of Century Park LRT. Those are its 2 biggest assets imo. Reality is that properties that are within 400-800m of an LRT station gives you a lift in price of 5-15% based on other comparables. CP is a great long term investment imo.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:39 PM   #1013
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^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?
I can walk into the foyer at CP and stand there detecting shoddy workmanship and I haven't been in the construction industry for decades.

I'd start with asking who the trained monkeys were that did the "stonework" in the foyers. Combination of bad selection of material and basic "parging" of joints that are a lot wider than they should be in many instances and huge gap filler in other joints. Looks like the person doing this slapped it up anyway they could and with little notion of how to actually fit the stones. Just looks awful. Amateur stonework.
I've spent a lot and I mean a lot of time in the lobbys of all 4 buildings and I never noticed 'shoddy' workmanship. Sure there were some deficiencies, but it certainly doesn't look like it was assembled by a bunch of 2-year olds. Sounds like you hate this development for whatever reason.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:41 PM   #1014
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^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?
I can walk into the foyer at CP and stand there detecting shoddy workmanship and I haven't been in the construction industry for decades.

I'd start with asking who the trained monkeys were that did the "stonework" in the foyers. Combination of bad selection of material and basic "parging" of joints that are a lot wider than they should be in many instances and huge gap filler in other joints. Looks like the person doing this slapped it up anyway they could and with little notion of how to actually fit the stones. Just looks awful. Amateur stonework.
Design and interiors, not construction.

That said, take anything from 04-08 and tell me how quality is.
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Old 13-04-2012, 01:46 AM   #1015
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^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?
I can walk into the foyer at CP and stand there detecting shoddy workmanship and I haven't been in the construction industry for decades.

I'd start with asking who the trained monkeys were that did the "stonework" in the foyers. Combination of bad selection of material and basic "parging" of joints that are a lot wider than they should be in many instances and huge gap filler in other joints. Looks like the person doing this slapped it up anyway they could and with little notion of how to actually fit the stones. Just looks awful. Amateur stonework.
I've spent a lot and I mean a lot of time in the lobbys of all 4 buildings and I never noticed 'shoddy' workmanship. Sure there were some deficiencies, but it certainly doesn't look like it was assembled by a bunch of 2-year olds. Sounds like you hate this development for whatever reason.
I spent 10yrs of my youth working with stone masons and so of course I've seen a lot of superior stone masonry. That said good stone masons today are probably hard to come by. Walk around Jasper Townsite and JPL sometime and contrast the beautifully executed stone masonry and professional looking joints in that stonework if you don't believe me. I worked on a lot of those projects along time ago.
6inch sections of solid mortar parging is just fail when it comes to stonework. You see that in each lobby in CP. Basically screams that the masons didn't spent the time needed to construct nicely arranged walls. Seems to be the general case in the different building lobbies. Just poorly done.
I could get on the case of cracked flooring, expansion, contraction, and bare floor crevises showing as well in the corners and edges of the foyers.

Take the time to look and you'll see a lot of workmanship that is shoddy. Again this just being in the foyers. I would expect if anything that those areas would feature better workmanship being as they are first experiences to the entire build.
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Old 13-04-2012, 01:51 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by IanO View Post
^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?
I can walk into the foyer at CP and stand there detecting shoddy workmanship and I haven't been in the construction industry for decades.

I'd start with asking who the trained monkeys were that did the "stonework" in the foyers. Combination of bad selection of material and basic "parging" of joints that are a lot wider than they should be in many instances and huge gap filler in other joints. Looks like the person doing this slapped it up anyway they could and with little notion of how to actually fit the stones. Just looks awful. Amateur stonework.
Design and interiors, not construction.

That said, take anything from 04-08 and tell me how quality is.
For sure Ian, but it hardly negates my point. Why pay high for premium quality workmanship when really it largely didn't exist?

That said it has been noted that theres a lot of quality features in CP in the suite interiors, but not really sufficient to move units at these pricepoints.
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Old 13-04-2012, 08:22 AM   #1017
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I hear they are moving a good amount of units there in rent months though.
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Old 13-04-2012, 10:33 AM   #1018
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Reality is that properties that are within 400-800m of an LRT station gives you a lift in price of 5-15% based on other comparables. CP is a great long term investment imo.
But what are the comparables here? The neighborhood is middle to low, is that the comparable? Or perhaps, Clarieview, which is also a TOD on the LRT? It isn't a great long term investment at current prices, the rental yeilds for price are poor, and there are indications that the developer is going to directly compete with a rental building against condo investors who are renting out (which will make the yields even worse). But it might be in the future for some cheaper parts, if they start building some more affordable stuff that closer matches the neighborhood, more like Clarieview standards.

PS. The LRT thing is interesting. I like the idea of being by the LRT, and I know a lot of guys who feel the same way. But a lot of women I talk to, feel differently, not wanting to be around "crime", which many perceive LRT to bring (simply from having sat next to some undesirables on the train at one time or another I'm guessing). Even so, a 5 to 15% lift over the current neighborhood suggests CP is way overpriced / built for its location.

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Old 13-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #1019
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From what I'm aware, Central Tower is not going to be rentals. That was floated as an idea years ago, but I believe their intent is to go with condos.
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Old 13-04-2012, 11:05 AM   #1020
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^could be, but I have heard rental as recent as feb/march
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Old 14-04-2012, 03:23 PM   #1021
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Reality is that properties that are within 400-800m of an LRT station gives you a lift in price of 5-15% based on other comparables. CP is a great long term investment imo.
But what are the comparables here? The neighborhood is middle to low, is that the comparable? Or perhaps, Clarieview, which is also a TOD on the LRT? It isn't a great long term investment at current prices, the rental yeilds for price are poor, and there are indications that the developer is going to directly compete with a rental building against condo investors who are renting out (which will make the yields even worse). But it might be in the future for some cheaper parts, if they start building some more affordable stuff that closer matches the neighborhood, more like Clarieview standards.

PS. The LRT thing is interesting. I like the idea of being by the LRT, and I know a lot of guys who feel the same way. But a lot of women I talk to, feel differently, not wanting to be around "crime", which many perceive LRT to bring (simply from having sat next to some undesirables on the train at one time or another I'm guessing). Even so, a 5 to 15% lift over the current neighborhood suggests CP is way overpriced / built for its location.
The big difference is that CP is on the southside, not the north. The south has always maintained higher real estate values than the NE and likely always will. There is also a higher concentration of people that live in the south/southwest that work downtown/university. These are two factors that can support CP as a desirable place to live or invest.

Regarding your comment about women and safety, I guess you'd be surprised how many women purchased in CP because of its proximity to transit (bus and LRT) since they dont like driving to the University or downtown.
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Old 14-04-2012, 03:23 PM   #1022
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^could be, but I have heard rental as recent as feb/march
Again, I am unsure what ProCura may do. Whatever it is, let's get going Schluessel.
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Old 15-04-2012, 12:33 AM   #1023
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Westbank was the problem here. Unfortunately with all the turnover at Procura, things slowed down even more. Procura is largely working to make things right. The economy and slump in the marketplace and a crappy business partnership with Westbank (of whom I have nothing but horrible things to say - stay away from Westbank at all costs) are the problems with CP, not the location, not the suites, not the finishes. This will all work out. It will just take some time. It's all very unfortunate and I am confident Procura will deliver a fantastic community at Century Park.

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Old 15-04-2012, 11:59 AM   #1024
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^True, Westbank seemed to let things fall through on this one. Westbank generally has a very good reputation in the industry, however, in this case it seems like things didn't work out so well.
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Old 15-04-2012, 03:31 PM   #1025
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^True, Westbank seemed to let things fall through on this one. Westbank generally has a very good reputation in the industry, however, in this case it seems like things didn't work out so well.
Whatever their reputation in Vancouver might be, they dropped the ball here in Edmonton and there isn't a thing the company can do to change my opinion on the way Westbank chooses to operate their business. It was such a disaster that I am shocked that more information about their screw ups hasn't been made public.
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Old 15-04-2012, 04:08 PM   #1026
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Quite honestly I think it was a matter of the time that the project was built, and less about Westbank. People who aren't in the construction industry honestly have no idea how silly things got all over the place from 2006-2008. Personally I found working with Westbank on CP to be pretty good, but it was obvious halfway through that there was some tension between them and Procura.

I was going to say that the biggest mistake was not hiring a construction manager and trying to do it themselves, but given what's gone on with a couple other projects recently with companies that have a long history, I wonder if that's true or not.
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Old 16-04-2012, 08:54 PM   #1027
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^Yuuup. That was a big problem.
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Old 17-04-2012, 06:40 PM   #1028
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So I went back for another look at CP this weekend. Looked at a few different 1 bdrm units. The smallest being 775sqft. They're still asking $279k for those units. Condo fees running $.30/sqft. They are claiming there is little room for negotiating on the 1 bed units. I actually liked the finishes more than I remember from before. That pricing still seems pretty steep for the size and amenities though.

Apparently they're starting construction on a rental tower in august, 17 floors. Also, they are slated to create a pathway from CP to the LRT right away. Also, the water feature was said to be a priority this year too.
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Old 17-04-2012, 06:47 PM   #1029
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$360/ft... that is very good pricing for mid-upper finish levels, concrete construction and UG parking.

0.30 is also quite reasonable. Most buildings are in the 30-40 range.
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Old 17-04-2012, 07:35 PM   #1030
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Apparently they're starting construction on a rental tower in august, 17 floors.
Construction start date is still up in the air, detailed design has not begun, trades or construction manager have not been chosen, so on and so forth. And from what I last heard its condos, not apartments, but that remains to be seen I guess. Also, it's actually 20 residential floors: first "floor" is two story townhome style units, then 16 typical floors, and top floor is two story penthouse units. Then a one or two story high mechanical penthouse (second would just be a concealed chiller or evaporating tower). So 22 storys in height overall, actually.

As far as the prices for sale and condo fees per foot, as Ian said those are pretty much standard in Edmonton for a building of that finish in that area. Were it downtown, University, or Whyte it would be significantly higher. Alternatively, buildings with lower/cheaper finishes and features etc. in those areas go for about the same price.

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Old 21-04-2012, 06:26 PM   #1031
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http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ancouver-look/

Developer George Schluessel argues thin glass towers – the kind originally proposed for the Century Park site – have no place in Edmonton.
Edmonton needs brick and stone, mid-rise towers with plenty of setbacks and layers to disperse the wind, narrow roads with an intimate feel and sunny patches with space to linger.
That’s his view, expressed in a new plan going to city hall for approval as early as this summer.
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Old 21-04-2012, 07:12 PM   #1032
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Old 21-04-2012, 08:21 PM   #1033
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Its all a bit vague without renderings, but interesting to read that main building form will be about 7 stories, with brick and stone rather than glass finishes. I think that's a lot more realistic than the original plan, provided they can bring the prices down to closer match the neighborhood. For example, current 600k for 3 bedroom is pretty silly, given you could probably knock down a house in neighborhood and build a brand new one for that.

I think should aim for about 300k for a 3 bedroom, 250 a 2 bedroom, and perhaps 200k a 1 bedroom, which would be competitive with, say, Terwillegar Towne:

http://www.experiencerealtygroup.com...e%20ASC&page=1

Worse neighborhood than Terwillegar, but maybe offset if the build is a little bit better, and the LRT access.

I think a bit "hopeful" floating a p3 for ParkNride. COE hasn't been to keen on P3's.
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Old 21-04-2012, 09:19 PM   #1034
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http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ancouver-look/

Developer George Schluessel argues thin glass towers – the kind originally proposed for the Century Park site – have no place in Edmonton.
Edmonton needs brick and stone, mid-rise towers with plenty of setbacks and layers to disperse the wind, narrow roads with an intimate feel and sunny patches with space to linger.
That’s his view, expressed in a new plan going to city hall for approval as early as this summer.
That's a joke, right? Is it April 1st again?
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Old 22-04-2012, 12:53 AM   #1035
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If central tower is going in first then I hope they can look at getting the 2 closest to the tower main street buildings in next and then the next 2 main street buildings closer to the LRT after that. I think if it were in that process it would encourage more people to move in to the area much quicker as there would be direct access to the LRT station in a hopefully comfortable pedestrian area.
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Old 22-04-2012, 12:59 AM   #1036
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Brick and stone is good if it's real and used in a good design. In Edmonton "brick" and "stone" often tend to be "cinder block" and "rock applique", usually resulting in either an institutional look or just plain cheap and tacky.

Renders will tell us a lot more about which one it's going to be.
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Old 22-04-2012, 09:23 AM   #1037
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"Edmonton needs brick and stone"? Um.. we already have lots of that thanks. How about something different. How about some thin glass towers? Oh, right. According to George those have "no place in Edmonton". Whatever that means.
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Old 22-04-2012, 11:55 AM   #1038
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http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...ancouver-look/

Developer George Schluessel argues thin glass towers – the kind originally proposed for the Century Park site – have no place in Edmonton.
Edmonton needs brick and stone, mid-rise towers with plenty of setbacks and layers to disperse the wind, narrow roads with an intimate feel and sunny patches with space to linger.
That’s his view, expressed in a new plan going to city hall for approval as early as this summer.
And why exactly is that? Is there a perfectly valid reason for this?
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Old 22-04-2012, 12:11 PM   #1039
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developer does not know that Edmonton needs a change but not same old brick and stone. if I was on city planning, I will turn down developers' wish to use brick and stone.
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Old 22-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #1040
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And why exactly is that? Is there a perfectly valid reason for this?
I would think it's pretty obvious, they aren't selling fast enough at current design and prices, unlike other projects in the city (like the Terwillgar ones). Hopefully this doesn't mean slightly shorter Mayfair clones.

I hope Coe is taking note of this, if a developer can't complete a Vancouver style development in a mid level neighborhood in Southside by LRT, the muni plan in North side by LRT is totally unrealistic.
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Old 22-04-2012, 01:35 PM   #1041
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They were selling pretty quickly when the economy was good. Design and prices were not an issue then. Perhaps design and price is not the issue at all.
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Old 22-04-2012, 04:56 PM   #1042
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More BS..good luck with the muni.
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Old 22-04-2012, 07:30 PM   #1043
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If YEG had a direct flight to major asia-pacific cities we'd be selling condos like mad.
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Old 22-04-2012, 07:37 PM   #1044
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^No we wouldn't.
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Old 22-04-2012, 09:05 PM   #1045
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They were selling pretty quickly when the economy was good. Design and prices were not an issue then. Perhaps design and price is not the issue at all.
Then how do you explain condos in Terwillegar and Windermere and other new suburbs selling well (not to mention dupluex's, townhomes, and single family homes)? The economy isn't really that bad in Edmonton with Oil prices high, and interest rates at record lows. IMO the right product at the right price will sell at this location. Lets hope the new designs mean it can be completed in the next decade, not the next 3 or 4 decades.

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Old 22-04-2012, 10:14 PM   #1046
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Well my little hope is that with this redesign of potentially less units I'm assuming that some of their downtown proposed properties get more attention sooner than later.
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Old 22-04-2012, 10:30 PM   #1047
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Fuller article on the redesign and rental tower plans: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...701/story.html
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:13 AM   #1048
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“We’re trying to replicate the feeling of a campus, both in terms of the materials and the height,”
Yup, institutional. I called it earlier.

Please leave town now Procura, you're doing us no favors with your increasingly ugly architecture and design foibles.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:14 AM   #1049
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'I think should aim for about 300k for a 3 bedroom, 250 a 2 bedroom, and perhaps 200k a 1 bedroom, which would be competitive with, say, Terwillegar Towne:'

Likely a bit higher than that... but it could be done, although you likely are working with 400 a foot here versus 300-325 there.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:18 AM   #1050
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If YEG had a direct flight to major asia-pacific cities we'd be selling condos like mad.
Asian (Mainland Chinese) investment in Van/Tor is not because of their direct flights, but a result of those two cities having massive established Chinese communities.

Yes it would be nice to have a direct flight to Asia and yes it would increase our exposure over there which would eventually lead to more attention from potential investors/people wanting to move here, but this is not going to lead to the above situation.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:31 AM   #1051
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don't worry, George Schluessel and Procura head office already left E-Town for Calgary long ago

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Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
Quote:
“We’re trying to replicate the feeling of a campus, both in terms of the materials and the height,”
Yup, institutional. I called it earlier.

Please leave town now Procura, you're doing us no favors with your increasingly ugly architecture and design foibles.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:32 AM   #1052
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Fuller article on the redesign and rental tower plans: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...701/story.html
That confirms the tower will be a "luxury rental". Also, going for a "campus feel", code words I think, for a bit better priced.
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:35 AM   #1053
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don't worry, George Schluessel and Procura head office already left E-Town for Calgary long ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
Quote:
“We’re trying to replicate the feeling of a campus, both in terms of the materials and the height,”
Yup, institutional. I called it earlier.

Please leave town now Procura, you're doing us no favors with your increasingly ugly architecture and design foibles.
Maybe, but they have a good sized office in 10830... you know, that quite well done building they just finished.

Not they are not perfect and yes I do have a beef with them on their Mayfair North redesign, but come on guys...
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Old 23-04-2012, 10:55 AM   #1054
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They did one building and you'll apologize until the end of days for them now? In the real world, we call that a "dupe". You've been had, my friend.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:05 AM   #1055
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They did one building and you'll apologize until the end of days for them now? In the real world, we call that a "dupe". You've been had, my friend.
The four buildings at Century Park as well as Park Square and Mayfair South don't count along with the Professional Building? I'm counting 7 so far.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:13 AM   #1056
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They did one building and you'll apologize until the end of days for them now? In the real world, we call that a "dupe". You've been had, my friend.
Are they perfect? No. Have they built some of the better projects of late? Yes. Do they have my blind faith? Absolutely not, but their outlay of future projects is not only exciting but also quite interesting is use and design.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:17 AM   #1057
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Century Park had another player involved, so it wasn't all Procura. Park Square is ugly as shite. Mayfair south on its own isn't anything special, it's like a patio-less Legacy. Mayfair in it's full build out as per original designs would have been awesome, but now that's out the window too.

So far, they only have 10830 (which was a retrofit anyway, not a new building like these other endeavors). The rest have outside influence or are rapidly becoming steaming piles of meh.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:19 AM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
They did one building and you'll apologize until the end of days for them now? In the real world, we call that a "dupe". You've been had, my friend.
Are they perfect? No. Have they built some of the better projects of late? Yes. Do they have my blind faith? Absolutely not, but their outlay of future projects is not only exciting but also quite interesting is use and design.
Some of those "future projects" are happening now and not even coming close to original expectations. Why would I have any hope for their other future endeavors?
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:23 AM   #1059
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Projects are indeed dynamic through their evolution/de, but I still believe have strong hopes for them.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:26 AM   #1060
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^ Chmilz your just not Edmontonized yet.....Shite and crap and......Average better than a parking lot .....are the norm here. Just lower your expectations and save yourself the frustration. Seems Ian's lowered his standards as well, didn't take him long to get Edmontonized. I'm willing to wager that Westbank left CP because they didn't want to sully themselves with the image of what Procura builds.

Please.....one decent building does not a developer make !!!!!
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #1061
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'Seems Ian's lowered his standards as well'

I will reserve final judgement, but look at a project such as Arbutus Village in Vancouver. It is quite well done and much more in line with this CP version 2.0.

Does Procura need to be careful so as not slip into a lower category of product/finish/perception, absolutely.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:31 AM   #1062
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I hate using the phrase "action, not words" but so far Procura has been feeding us all words, no action.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:40 AM   #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
If YEG had a direct flight to major asia-pacific cities we'd be selling condos like mad.
Asian (Mainland Chinese) investment in Van/Tor is not because of their direct flights, but a result of those two cities having massive established Chinese communities.

Yes it would be nice to have a direct flight to Asia and yes it would increase our exposure over there which would eventually lead to more attention from potential investors/people wanting to move here, but this is not going to lead to the above situation.
except that those flights nurtured that IanO, just as those flights continue to nurture everything from student travel (for everything from esl to the post graduate level) to business travel and investment travel and holiday travel and immigration... and it's not just "the Chinese communities" that are involved, it includes japan and korea and vietnam and malaysia and most of the rest of south and east asia as well, not just mainland china.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:53 AM   #1064
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don't worry, George Schluessel and Procura head office already left E-Town for Calgary long ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
Quote:
“We’re trying to replicate the feeling of a campus, both in terms of the materials and the height,”
Yup, institutional. I called it earlier.

Please leave town now Procura, you're doing us no favors with your increasingly ugly architecture and design foibles.
ProCura left Alberta to BC back in the early 90's only to relocate to Calgary during the late 90's/early 2000's. All of ProCura's development group is based out of Edmonton.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:54 AM   #1065
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^^Thanks for backing me on that Ken
I'm a sales guy. Sales is often - Location. Location. Location. In this scenario, "location" is where asian-pacific investors can get off a plane, buy a million dollar condo, stuff a kid and a placeholder wife in it, and be back in Singapore for breakfast without hassle. We have the school for the kid. We can build the condo. We just need the flight.
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Old 23-04-2012, 11:57 AM   #1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanO View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
If YEG had a direct flight to major asia-pacific cities we'd be selling condos like mad.
Asian (Mainland Chinese) investment in Van/Tor is not because of their direct flights, but a result of those two cities having massive established Chinese communities.

Yes it would be nice to have a direct flight to Asia and yes it would increase our exposure over there which would eventually lead to more attention from potential investors/people wanting to move here, but this is not going to lead to the above situation.
except that those flights nurtured that IanO, just as those flights continue to nurture everything from student travel (for everything from esl to the post graduate level) to business travel and investment travel and holiday travel and immigration... and it's not just "the Chinese communities" that are involved, it includes japan and korea and vietnam and malaysia and most of the rest of south and east asia as well, not just mainland china.
Obviously Ken. Points of origin into a country contribute to the makeup of that point and yes we should be going after key direct flights, but a direct flight is not going to make a significant impact on current projects. Future maybe, but not current.
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Old 23-04-2012, 12:02 PM   #1067
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^Ian is right. Another reason why there is so much investment from Asian (and the Middle East) in Vancouver and Toronto is because they are our 24-hour international gateway cities. They are both well known on the international stage and are seen as 'safe havens' for investment. Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa are not that widely known and they don't even register on the radar.
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Old 23-04-2012, 01:59 PM   #1068
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Calgary is getting there.. a few international realestate brokers have opened up there.

But really.. why would you want it.. so we can have a housing bubble like van and Toronto fuled by off shore dollars who are not investing in the community. Enough of DT Edmonton is held by foreign interests... we don't need more.
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Old 23-04-2012, 02:06 PM   #1069
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I don't see a huge issue with the redesign of the project. It's a "C" location at best so the initial plans were probably way too ambitious. I'd rather see the fancy tall skinny towers in central areas along the River Valley where there's actually something to see out those floor to ceiling windows.
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Old 23-04-2012, 02:22 PM   #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanO View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
If YEG had a direct flight to major asia-pacific cities we'd be selling condos like mad.
Asian (Mainland Chinese) investment in Van/Tor is not because of their direct flights, but a result of those two cities having massive established Chinese communities.

Yes it would be nice to have a direct flight to Asia and yes it would increase our exposure over there which would eventually lead to more attention from potential investors/people wanting to move here, but this is not going to lead to the above situation.
except that those flights nurtured that IanO, just as those flights continue to nurture everything from student travel (for everything from esl to the post graduate level) to business travel and investment travel and holiday travel and immigration... and it's not just "the Chinese communities" that are involved, it includes japan and korea and vietnam and malaysia and most of the rest of south and east asia as well, not just mainland china.
Obviously Ken. Points of origin into a country contribute to the makeup of that point and yes we should be going after key direct flights, but a direct flight is not going to make a significant impact on current projects. Future maybe, but not current.
that's where you are wrong... those purchasers utilizing those direct flights will have an impact on current as well as existing projects. they are often the presale segment that is not subject to financing that allows "future" projects to become "current" projects. all you need to do is spend some time in some of the "current project" sales offices in vancouver and toronto and elsewhere to see that first hand. they are also often the segment that will pay for that lack of quality you bemoan so much in many of our current projects while the the purely "local" segment won't (at least until they see a market deep enought to maintain those values on the resale front).

it's too easy to forget that those making use of those direct flights are not doing so for one time convenience. it's once to look around, once to enrol, once to buy, once to move in, two or three times a year to visit in each direction...

the same is true for business connections. those using those direct flights are not doing so once. they are using them as much as once or twice a month - and so are many of their associates - and the multipliers involved are big ones and relatively current, not "future".
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Old 23-04-2012, 02:22 PM   #1071
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Calgary is getting there.. a few international realestate brokers have opened up there.

But really.. why would you want it.. so we can have a housing bubble like van and Toronto fuled by off shore dollars who are not investing in the community. Enough of DT Edmonton is held by foreign interests... we don't need more.
Why? Investment is a good thing. Obviously we would want people who are planning to move projects forward rather than sitting on them, but Edmonton desperately needs some outside competition, investment and innovation. The urban multi-family marketplace here is depressing.
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Old 23-04-2012, 03:05 PM   #1072
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Until measures are in place to protect from the creation of bubbles by foreign investment Edmonton is far better off without out of control outside investment. I would love to say that healthy levels of foreign investment can be achieved but in regards to Canada's main cities there has not been a healthy balance struck and it's Canadians that are getting priced out of their own markets.
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Old 23-04-2012, 03:29 PM   #1073
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Until measures are in place to protect from the creation of bubbles by foreign investment Edmonton is far better off without out of control outside investment.
What sort of measures are you suggesting? Can you give an example?

We need more investment, this will make projects more econmically viable.

I think the direct flights is a bit of a red hering though, it has more to do with the type of city, and whether it is considered a good investment. And, lets face it, Calgary will get such Asian flights long before Edmonton does (thanks to being a world class skiing destination).

Even so, with the right marketing, Edmonton could sell itself better, given the oil situation.
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Old 23-04-2012, 03:32 PM   #1074
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No I can't moa I have little to no knowledge in foreign real estate investment.

Do you think what is happening in Vancouver and Toronto good moa?
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Old 23-04-2012, 05:28 PM   #1075
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Do you think what is happening in Vancouver and Toronto good moa?
There are more condos towers under construction in Toronto than anywhere else in north america, from memory, well over 100. I think that's good compared to the half dozen in Edmonton. And, in Toronto, the prices are very reasonable (check out MLS).

As to Vancouver, its a bit of a special case, not just because of internaitonal investment though, but also because a lot of Canadians invest there as future retirement condo or similar.

I'd love to see more condos going up in Edmonton, and more investment would help that.
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Old 23-04-2012, 05:59 PM   #1076
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Both Toronto and Vancouver have tons of foreign investment in the condo market... Edmonton isn't seen as an investment market for condos... that may change over the next many years though.
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Old 23-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #1077
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No I can't moa I have little to no knowledge in foreign real estate investment.

Do you think what is happening in Vancouver and Toronto good moa?
if you look at some of concert's rental properties in both vancouver and toronto - http://concertproperties.com/rentals - you will certainly see "better" product for less money than in edmonton so that's probably not "bad" edp... are some segments of the market in the centre ice districts more expensive than here, particularly to purchase? yes, but that's also partly because those segments of the marketplace are bigger there than they are here. some of that is also balanced by an ability to buy smaller units in those markets (something the market will deliver because there is demand for them) in areas that have enough amenities to counterbalance the pressures imposed by smaller spaces.
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Old 24-04-2012, 11:51 AM   #1078
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Been there for a year and a half. They still haven't got that fountain working between building 3 and 4 lol
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Old 24-04-2012, 12:22 PM   #1079
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Coincidentally we just got off the phone with the architect. Apparently it did operate for a year or two, but the membrane has failed and they were asking some questions about what drains were used etc so they can spec out a new membrane system and get it back up and running.
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Old 26-04-2012, 09:20 PM   #1080
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People actually living at Century Park aren't too impressed by the lack of progress either, especially the plan to expand the parking lot instead of - you know - building what was supposed to go there.


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Residents of stalled urban village balk at parking lot plan

BY ELISE STOLTE, EDMONTONJOURNAL.COMAPRIL 26, 2012 6:20 PM

EDMONTON - The sea of cars that quickly fills the park-and-ride at Century Park every morning could grow by several hundred vehicles this summer, if ProCura Real Estate Services gets its way.

The company sent notice to residents of the first four Century Park buildings at the northeast terminus of the city’s LRT line this month, alerting them to plans to rezone the site for a private, paid parking lot beside the train station.

That would push the city’s free temporary park-and-ride farther back into fields left empty when the economic slowdown put the rest of the planned urban-village style condo project on hold.

The plan is further frustrating residents of Century Park, on 23rd Avenue and 111th Street.

“You look out and it’s just a sea of cars. It’s certainly not what we signed up for,” said Lynda Wild, who bought a unit thinking the fully developed urban village could give her autistic son more independence. Instead, she has a unit worth much less than she paid for it on the edge of a 1,230-stall gravel parking lot.


Stantec’s Simon O’Byrne, working on the zoning application for ProCura, said the parking lot is just a temporary measure. “Parking would cease to be a permitted use in eight years,” he said. “There would be more paid parking, but it’s got a shelf life.”

Residents had 21 days to comment on the proposal before it goes to the city in May.

This application is separate from the zoning application ProCura is hoping to file this summer to reconfigure its 17-hectare highrise development.

The redesign would scale down some of the proposed towers. ProCura says it still hopes to build out the whole site over the next 10 years.
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...044/story.html

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Old 26-04-2012, 09:44 PM   #1081
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They will soon by announcing the Century Parkade.
Guess I called it. Sucks to Century Park residents, but I'm sure Southwesters will rejoice and it should increase LRT ridership.
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Old 26-04-2012, 10:12 PM   #1082
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Oh I get it now. It's called Century Park because that's where you'll find prime parking for the next century.
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Old 26-04-2012, 11:39 PM   #1083
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Oh I get it now. It's called Century Park because that's where you'll find prime parking for the next century.
Nominated for "Best Post 2012"!
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Old 27-04-2012, 09:45 AM   #1084
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^I second that nomination.
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Old 27-04-2012, 09:52 AM   #1085
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I called it Century Parking earlier in the thread when the ParkNRide was originally announced, but back then lots of boosters were still trying to convince people it was temporary, and to buy into this "great" project (sadly, like the example of the woman above, most who have, have already lost money).

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Old 27-04-2012, 10:00 AM   #1086
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They want to build a for profit parkade. Slightly different than a massive gravel lot.
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Old 27-04-2012, 10:03 AM   #1087
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^what it says in the article (I think), is that they want to build a "pay" parking building, and that the current free parking will be pushed further back into other empty parts of the land (bit's originally intended or urban villages / lakes, etc.), but only, supposedly, for 8 years, i.e. just about a decade. Of course, like everything else in this project, you can probably double or tripple the time estimate to get a more realistic answer.

Century Park style "TOD":


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Old 27-04-2012, 10:06 AM   #1088
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TOD is a failure, bring on the POD (Parking Oriented Development).
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Old 27-04-2012, 10:11 AM   #1089
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Century Parking is pithy and chuckle-worthy, Moa, for sure . But there is something extra funny in the false naivety of KG's post.
If I were a tagger I'd be spraying Century Parking all over the place.
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Old 27-04-2012, 10:15 AM   #1090
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^OK, I agree, more witty than my line. Its neat how the funniest things can come out of unintended actions like that name, matching the actual results. And lets face it, it is still a Transit Oriented Development, i.e. a tranist development (parking by an LRT) for people who drive autos. I wonder if the Muni lands will be a similar looking TOD one day, given it has Vancouver designers as well.

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Old 27-04-2012, 10:27 AM   #1091
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You're right Moa. Why don't we run with what they are presenting? For instance, massive tail-gate parties before events at Rexall/downtown arena...How about TOTC -- transit oriented tent city? Hey, in an energy restrained future dystopia when living in your car is a viable/enviable option maybe this is the face of the new suburb?
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Old 27-04-2012, 02:12 PM   #1092
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^Keep in mind I find many things wrong with CP, but vis a vis that design and those interiors are top notch. ION is what it is, mid level suburban stuff. CP is quite a bit more money, deservingly so, but I would buy in neither as mentioned for neither provide me with a lifestyle... CP will at some point, but not for a while.

If CP had built ION product, it would likely be much further ahead... but then again, would we want that product there or something closer to what was originally planned?

Looks like it doesn't matter what you want Procura is going to put in something more like the ION...... except Century Park with have a monster parkade.

Why you ask?

The market will find purchasers for that.

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Old 28-04-2012, 12:16 AM   #1093
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I don't suppose it'll add huge additional numbers of cars, but with the new 747 regular bus service out to EIA parking at Century Parking (I like that) will be even tighter than it is now.
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Old 28-04-2012, 09:14 AM   #1094
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I don't think I would want to "long term" park at Century Park, I could not imagine the security would even come close to parking at EIA.
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Old 28-04-2012, 01:23 PM   #1095
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ETS suggests a maximum 24 hour of parking @ CP. That still means hundreds of airport employees could begin using the lot, although the price difference between employee parking in the parkade @ EIA and the monthly 747 pass isn't much. Many employees park for free (thanks to their employer) in the employee surface lot - don't know if there's power in those stalls though.

Nice touch for EIA to do the employer-discounted transit pass. At $100 (the same price as a Route-747-only transit pass) I hope it creates some new users of transit. More importantly for ETS, they'll have immediate feedback on employee uptake of the new service. (I don't think any employee would be foolish enough to spend $16/day for transit except in unusual circumstances - weather, car troubles, etc.)
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Old 28-04-2012, 04:08 PM   #1096
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Procura simply wants to generate some cash flow while they go through the rezoning process for Century Park. Whether people will opt to pay for parking to be close to the transit centre or will continue to park for free and walk is yet to be seen. I do know that the small parking lot just north of the retail area was running at about 50%-60% full with paid customers.

The reality is that CP will take a number of years to build out. My only reservation is that Procura might not be able to pull it off alone and they'll need another partner.
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Old 29-04-2012, 07:12 AM   #1097
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For someone like myself who was considering buying into CP it's looking less and less like a good place to be.
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:12 PM   #1098
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Given what the CEO of Procura wrote back to Chmilz regarding Mairfair North, I'm done defending this project and any other Procura project.

Go ahead, fear the worst re: architecture.

http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...postcount=2131
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:34 PM   #1099
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^ wow... very telling. Sounds like someone has given up on discountville.

People do want a good product in a good location. Century Park could be a good product in a great location but they screwed up big time. Phase I should have been the phase right next to the LRT station.... people who bought in this phase would have been happy, and a customers happiness goes a lot further than any advertising they could buy. Phase I was instead built as far away as possible from the LRT station...

Procura - take a hint!
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:27 PM   #1100
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Intead of building the tower near the current buildings they should build their next residential building as close to the LRT station as possible.
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