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Replacement
17-01-2013, 09:02 AM
So a day later and none of the problems with the QE2 closure occurred. I report this here because unfortunately the other thread specific to the "blockade" was closed.

Turns out one lane was kept open at all times, of course emergency vehicles would've been granted passage at any time, and no incidents occurred. Event was peaceful, one protest the protest person came out, talked to Idle no more protestors, was informed, satisfied with explanations, and left.
Reports are that most motorists honked and cheered, a few gave the protestors the finger, and one women driver unfortunately aggressively tried to drive through the human blockade. With her pick up truck picture on the front page. :confused:

By all reports this blockade and a smudging on St Albert Trail did result in increased public information, attention, and served the purpose the demonstrators were trying to further.

I like the message too. "Sorry for the momentary inconvience, were changing the world and lives"

MrOilers
17-01-2013, 09:25 AM
They got attention, but did they win any allies for their cause? That is the main question.

edmonton daily photo
17-01-2013, 09:39 AM
^ they did just fine.

MrOilers
17-01-2013, 09:39 AM
^ they did just fine.

Based on what knowledge?

edmonton daily photo
17-01-2013, 09:42 AM
based on what knowledge would you assume otherwise... Even if they were giving free kittens to orphans some would come out swinging with hateful drivel.

The protest was peaceful and got media attention. I am glad to see people getting involved.

MrOilers
17-01-2013, 09:48 AM
based on what knowledge would you assume otherwise...

I didn't assume otherwise.

I merely asked a question, and questioned you on your poor answer. Didn't your teachers in school ever tell you to show your work? You should probably also do that here.

JJMorrocco
17-01-2013, 09:56 AM
It was a smart ploy by EPS to detour all traffic off of QEII North. This gave the protest no exposure. It was only after an hour that the chief decided to open a lane and thereby get some attention.

Did anyone know the one 'anti' protestor that showed up??

EveB
17-01-2013, 09:59 AM
I'm impressed, then, with the chief's grasp of tactics.

Eve

kcantor
17-01-2013, 10:02 AM
They got attention, but did they win any allies for their cause? That is the main question.


^ they did just fine.



^ they did just fine.

Based on what knowledge?


based on what knowledge would you assume otherwise... Even if they were giving free kittens to orphans some would come out swinging with hateful drivel.

The protest was peaceful and got media attention. I am glad to see people getting involved.



based on what knowledge would you assume otherwise...

I didn't assume otherwise.

I merely asked a question, and questioned you on your poor answer. Didn't your teachers in school ever tell you to show your work? You should probably also do that here.
i'm starting to think that if either one of you said that the sky was blue or that asphalt was black the other would argue...

did it go as planned? i think so - possibly better.

but the question was "did they win any allies?" although it was posed as "the main question" which probably is debatable but a different discussion than either of you seem prepared to have.

not only is it too early for that question to be answered either way, i think the answer will continue to shift, at least in the short term, based on what else transpires.

it certainly won't be answered by "did so/did not anonymous sand box challenges".

Medwards
17-01-2013, 10:03 AM
Ya great. Next time I don't get what i want with the government I'll close down the highway too.

Dusty Bear
17-01-2013, 10:04 AM
I highly doubt anyone was conducting opinion polls of drivers affected by the protest, so it's not like we're going to know with any certainty how they felt about it. All we'll have is anecdotal.

As other posters noted, it got media attention. Maybe more than that. From the Edmonton Journal:


Binh Chung was one of the first drivers stopped as the roadblock was set up. “All this is a disaster. I have no idea what is going on,” he said, adding that he hadn’t been following the movement but planned to do some research after Wednesday’s blockade.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/Protesters+slow+QEII+traffic+Albert+Trail+commute/7828245/story.html

Admin
17-01-2013, 10:07 AM
All,

I opened this thread as there is interest in discussing this important issue.

However, keep the comments to the issue, and not the poster. Debate the tactics, the rationale, and the effectiveness of the campaign - either by generating needed awareness or generating disdain for the movement.

This should not be about stereotypes as blockades are used in other situations. I remember Wabamun townsfolk blocking the CN mainline to try to get more attention to the effects of the oil spill (if you want a recent example).


One hundred Wabamun Lake residents took part in a five-hour blockade of the CN tracks in protest against what they felt was insufficient action by the railway in cleaning up the spill. The province of Alberta then issued an environmental protection order to ensure that the cleanup proceed.

Source - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabamun_Lake

Replacement
17-01-2013, 10:48 AM
I highly doubt anyone was conducting opinion polls of drivers affected by the protest, so it's not like we're going to know with any certainty how they felt about it. All we'll have is anecdotal.

As other posters noted, it got media attention. Maybe more than that. From the Edmonton Journal:


Binh Chung was one of the first drivers stopped as the roadblock was set up. “All this is a disaster. I have no idea what is going on,” he said, adding that he hadn’t been following the movement but planned to do some research after Wednesday’s blockade.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/Protesters+slow+QEII+traffic+Albert+Trail+commute/7828245/story.html
I read the article this am. I thought it a good and fair rundown. Thankful to see the detail they went into and keeping it front page news.

Interesting editorial decision, in the print edition they show the front of the pickup plowing through the human blockade, but in the online version the rear view and the licence plate of the vehicle. I wonder how many people have reported this plate by now. Deservedly so.

I realize emotion runs strong on these issues but really at the point of catching yourself plowing into human beings with several thousands lbs of truck its time to calm down, assess your actions and maybe park the vehicle for awhile. No excuse for that nature of action. Deplorable really. What class and restraint the lady on the side shows raising an eagle feather in salutation. I wonder if it raised any awareness in the angry driver? To me thats the proverbial flower in the tank turret moment.

Anyway this movement is spreading like rapid fire and across the globe. Getting in the news, front pages, etc. Clearly this is resulting in more attention, hits, discussion, and is on the tip of everybodies tongue.

My sincere credit for a protest well done and that was kept under control, for this protest to be allowed and the astute actions of not trying to shut this demonstration down, and the role of enforcement to aid in maintaining order during the event and safer passage through one lane.

Great job done by all, hats off. Edmonton, and Alberta, comes off looking better because they allow this demonstration and voice. The latter point being my opinion but I think putting the hammer down on protests like this ultimately does more harm than good and allows the protest to build and fester while world wide opinion looks on.

Cooperation of all for at least one day was obtained, a good thing.

ps Thanks admin for allowing this thread and discussion.

Replacement
17-01-2013, 10:53 AM
They got attention, but did they win any allies for their cause? That is the main question.
You doubt that this nationwide and world wide protest is gaining allies and furthering exposure using this nature of tactics?

Idle no more has gone viral in terms of news. This has quickly become a huge movement.

I think your main question has been answered.

Turtle
17-01-2013, 10:56 AM
After dealing with the BS on the St Albert Trail yesturday I will be returning the favor at the River Cree Casino on the walls and floor of the bathroom.

edmonton daily photo
17-01-2013, 11:15 AM
based on what knowledge would you assume otherwise...

I didn't assume otherwise.

I merely asked a question, and questioned you on your poor answer. Didn't your teachers in school ever tell you to show your work? You should probably also do that here.

You asked a question with, what i perceive, to have a slant to it. You continue to perpetuate the us/them stance.

Simply ask.. did it work?

I think it did and I think it worked because it was peaceful, the protesters had some good people speaking, there was good media attention and they increased their visibility.

kcantor
17-01-2013, 11:41 AM
I highly doubt anyone was conducting opinion polls of drivers affected by the protest, so it's not like we're going to know with any certainty how they felt about it. All we'll have is anecdotal.

As other posters noted, it got media attention. Maybe more than that. From the Edmonton Journal:


Binh Chung was one of the first drivers stopped as the roadblock was set up. “All this is a disaster. I have no idea what is going on,” he said, adding that he hadn’t been following the movement but planned to do some research after Wednesday’s blockade.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/Protesters+slow+QEII+traffic+Albert+Trail+commute/7828245/story.html
I read the article this am. I thought it a good and fair rundown. Thankful to see the detail they went into and keeping it front page news.

Interesting editorial decision, in the print edition they show the front of the pickup plowing through the human blockade, but in the online version the rear view and the licence plate of the vehicle. I wonder how many people have reported this plate by now. Deservedly so.

I realize emotion runs strong on these issues but really at the point of catching yourself plowing into human beings with several thousands lbs of truck its time to calm down, assess your actions and maybe park the vehicle for awhile. No excuse for that nature of action. Deplorable really. What class and restraint the lady on the side shows raising an eagle feather in salutation. I wonder if it raised any awareness in the angry driver? To me thats the proverbial flower in the tank turret moment.

Anyway this movement is spreading like rapid fire and across the globe. Getting in the news, front pages, etc. Clearly this is resulting in more attention, hits, discussion, and is on the tip of everybodies tongue.

My sincere credit for a protest well done and that was kept under control, for this protest to be allowed and the astute actions of not trying to shut this demonstration down, and the role of enforcement to aid in maintaining order during the event and safer passage through one lane.

Great job done by all, hats off. Edmonton, and Alberta, comes off looking better because they allow this demonstration and voice. The latter point being my opinion but I think putting the hammer down on protests like this ultimately does more harm than good and allows the protest to build and fester while world wide opinion looks on.

Cooperation of all for at least one day was obtained, a good thing.

ps Thanks admin for allowing this thread and discussion.
emphasis added in order to agree with both points...

Gemini
17-01-2013, 12:26 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

edmonton daily photo
17-01-2013, 12:30 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

RichardS
17-01-2013, 12:38 PM
...before any of you think reprisals...


...remember...you are always judged by your last act...and fouling up walls and floors only makes the janitorial staff have to clean up after you...


...plus, the Enoch Cree nation has come out against blockades...so one should do a bit of calm reflection...after all...if one Caucasian male does something stupid...does that mean that some random business run by some random Caucasian should be "punished"...and the bigger insult would be that the staff cleaning up the mess may not be Caucasians...so again...your point would be missed...


…personally…I am glad that the awareness is happening….the clichés of “be careful for what you wish for”, and “the law of unintended consequences” may be at play here…for there are issues of administration that many councils have ignored…just ask one of the best speakers on Native issues I have ever heard…Chief Clarence Louie…

…maybe…just maybe…this will lead to the needed discussion both parties have been avoiding for centuries now…for the real change that the Assembly of First Nation leaders were clamouring for recently requires all sides to be open to said change…

edmonton daily photo
17-01-2013, 12:42 PM
.
…maybe…just maybe…this will lead to the needed discussion both parties have been avoiding for centuries now…for the real change that the Assembly of First Nation leaders were clamouring for recently requires all sides to be open to said change…

I like this one most of all.

And I firmly believe that we need to hold onto this idea and everything we do should have the intent of moving this idea forward.

Gemini
17-01-2013, 12:44 PM
One thing I have noticed during these protests is there are hardly any derogatory posters being swayed about. Yesterday the only derogatory thing I heard form a protester down east was a woman saying "White man go home" during her protest. That's not to say this will not change if things should escalate.

Replacement
17-01-2013, 12:58 PM
One thing I have noticed during these protests is there are hardly any derogatory posters being swayed about. Yesterday the only derogatory thing I heard form a protester down east was a woman saying "White man go home" during her protest. That's not to say this will not change if things should escalate.

The best sign of all was:

"Sorry for your inconvenience, we're changing the world"

A beautiful ring to it and summing up how trivial a minor delay is compared to the issues at hand.

edmonton daily photo
17-01-2013, 01:04 PM
^ I like that too.

halocore
17-01-2013, 01:07 PM
I was fully in support of the Idle no More movement until these blockades (even with the rather false nature of Theresa Spence's "hunger strike"). I completely agree that first nation's issues and rights have been extremely poorly handled in this country and there needs to be meaningful change, both from government and with how the reserves operate. I think most Canadians would support changes that help the average native / metis, etc person.

These blockades were just a childish move to get media attention though. By all means they should protest, but do it in a way that respects the average citizen who is (likely) already in support of your cause. I think yesterday only helped to make them a few more enemies than supporters.

kcantor
17-01-2013, 01:15 PM
I was fully in support of the Idle no More movement until these blockades (even with the rather false nature of Theresa Spence's "hunger strike"). I completely agree that first nation's issues and rights have been extremely poorly handled in this country and there needs to be meaningful change, both from government and with how the reserves operate. I think most Canadians would support changes that help the average native / metis, etc person.

These blockades were just a childish move to get media attention though. By all means they should protest, but do it in a way that respects the average citizen who is (likely) already in support of your cause. I think yesterday only helped to make them a few more enemies than supporters.
emphasis added...

out of curiosity, prior to the blockades, have you ever written what i highlighted above to any elected official at any level of government in the country or to any newspaper or other publication or even anonymously to any internet forum?

if not, the blockades were not just a childish move to get media attention. if not, they were by your own post successful.

Alex.L
17-01-2013, 01:38 PM
Found this on facebook. I won't say if I do or do not agree with it. Just figure this is a good place to repost it.



"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, you are the same decaying matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile" - Fight Club

I...'ve been #IdleTooLong about this whole topic, and I feel like I need to express my point of view without disrupting innocent travelers on highways, and cargo carrying freight trains.
First, allow me to clarify that I am a Cree man with full status. I have family in positions of political power in this very province, and should declare that my opinions are my own. While everyone needles over the finite details of the current situation, I'd like to paint my thoughts for you with much broader strokes.

I'm so very proud of my culture. The way the plains Indians lived on this land was a fantastic example of community, art, respect for our environment, ingenuity, and spirituality. I'm proud of the native inspired tattoos that I sport permanently on my body. As a father, I'm teaching my son that same respect and understanding of where his blood derives from, in the hopes that his pride will outshine the prejudice he will inevitably experience growing up, or at some point in his life.

I'm also very proud to be Canadian. Our vast mosaic of cultures, languages, and beliefs make up this welcoming land of opportunity for all. Whether you like it or not, we all have the same citizenship, but some have a different view on the value of it.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the government bills, documentation, or policy that is driving the current protests, but I've intently watched news stories, read columns, and have regularly monitored the comments being made on facebook. Based on all of this, I feel the need to break my silence on this issue.

1 - It's embarrassing how the #IdleNoMore protest is being handled.
Blocking major traffic thoroughfares does nothing good to bring support and awareness to your cause, it creates immediate animosity towards you. Protesting freely in parks or in front of government buildings seems like a much more productive way to attract the attention of those you seek. The politicians. Not the regular welder-Joe who's just trying to get to work. Hold him up and cost him money? See how much support you'll get out of that guy...

Clarify what you are protesting for, or against. I've never seen such a passionate group of people go forward in protest in such disarray, and without clearly stating what it's all about. If it's generally about your need to be consulted, respected, justified for being mistreated, or the preservation of your culture, then let's be out with it and start a constructive discussion.

Understand that you do not need to be consulted for anything any more than the Canadian citizen next to you does. Your opinion on things doesn't count "more" than anyone else's.
Respect is earned, not given.

There's no question that the native people of yesterday were brutalized, hunted, tortured, and humiliated for decades. It's awful, and no one should ever have to suffer like that. The elders of the time signed those treaties to bring peace, and offer what they hoped would be a leg-up in a new world that they realized couldn't be held at bay. But those days are long over. It defies logic to have the current population pay for the tragedies committed by people that came so long before them.

The preservation of your culture is YOUR job, not anyone else's. For example, Polish, Irish, and Ukrainian societies thrive all over the country with very little or no support from government coffers. They celebrate traditional dance, language, and food all by simply passing it down from generation to generation. Native communities can do the very same thing (and generally do), but without financial support.

2 - "This movement is about the whole environment, its not just about the treaties....The bill that passed now un protects the rivers, lakes, forests, land, etc, etc, so we need this bill to further protect ur childrens futures.....thanks to Harper Govt....rigs n developemtn will pollute the air, waters, etc, etc.."

It's no secret that our Canadian economy is driven by the oil and gas industry. Yes, there have been some awful environmental blunders due to a plethora of different reasons. I heartily agree that we need to protect our natural areas that support wildlife, but I also know that there is aggressive legislation, and powerful government offices in place that already have that very same sentiment at heart. Millions of Canadians support green technology and research, as well as lobby for stronger federal policy. So if that's what this is all about, there's no need to blockade anything, as a majority of people would already agree with you.

3 - "It is about the 480 page Bill that the government has passed without you knowing about it. It went through the house of commons and the senate in 2 wks. 480 pgs long...do you think that many people had time to read it? It says that under age criminals can be punished as adults. It makes more budget cuts. The librarians at schools are being budget cut. It is about ALOT more than Aboriginals, it's about everyone in Canada. The Aboriginals are the ones who started to realize the Bill was gonna to do irreversable damage!"

Back in the days of copying notes off a blackboard or projector in school, I'm certain I've WRITTEN 480 pages in two weeks, let alone read that many. In a political world where literacy at a high level is demanded, I'm willing to bet that most could plow through that many pages in a very short period of time. I suppose the content would be laden with bureaucratic jargon and would need time to fully interpret...but that's why you have a legal team.
Quite frankly, I agree with underage criminals being tried as adults, and I'm willing to bet that a landslide majority of Canadians will agree with me.

Budget cuts are a reality of our democratic world. I'm not sure if this means that librarians from schools are being removed, or the library itself, but the fact of the matter is, our schools rely on a healthy economy for funding. When money gets tight, things get sacrificed. I truly hope that the readily available knowledge in a library would be the last to go.

4 - "It's not about the Aboriginals! That is what they are doing to distract you from what it really is about! It only affects the aboriginals- just like it will effect ALL of us!"
This is very confusing, but seems to sum up the general knowledge about what is going on. Who is "they"? Are we going into conspiracy theory depths here? Do people not realize that we have an official opposition in place as a natural government watchdog to debate everything that in-power government is trying to enact? If there were truly earth shattering implications in the bill in question, the opposition would be whistle blowing and bleating into any available microphone available so fast it would make your head spin.

First and foremost, I'm a human being just like you. I believe in equality. Across the board equality. Our country is so multicultural, that to give any specific group levity over everyone else is completely ridiculous. I'm not familiar with the particulars of old treaties signed, but I get the gist because I have used some of the special privileges provided to me. I do not pay for health care. I did for awhile in my young working life, but then the government discovered my native status and sent me a HUGE apology letter, and a cheque for every dime I had put into the system. Odd. I lived just up the street from my fellow truck driving friends, did the same job, paid the same taxes...yet there I was with this benefit because of my racial background and some papers that were signed all those years ago. I've used it for eye wear. This was particularly handy when I was “up against it” financially, but had broken my glasses welding. Here's the thing though, why should I have an advantage on a co-worker who might be in the same situation? It's not fair, and it needs to stop.

I move that Canadians start their own march towards coast to coast equality, or at least the serious discussion of it. Our country should offer no free rides to anyone. No help for those who refuse to help themselves. No quarter for those who would inhibit the lives and success of others. No limit to what anyone can accomplish with a steely resolve, and a great idea. It doesn't matter who built the first camp fires and communities on this land, it's those that work hard to continue to stoke the flames of collective well being that matter.

As a man that stands by his word, I pledge to never again use my native status to further myself in a way that isn't available to every other Canadian. I will leave my son unregistered, and will teach him the importance of keeping it that way. I am a proud native man, and a hard working, forward thinking Canadian that believes the opportunities and advantages this country has to offer should be available to everyone equally.

- Anthony Sowan
@sowanonair

halocore
17-01-2013, 01:41 PM
out of curiosity, prior to the blockades, have you ever written what i highlighted above to any elected official at any level of government in the country or to any newspaper or other publication or even anonymously to any internet forum?

if not, the blockades were not just a childish move to get media attention. if not, they were by your own post successful.

^ As part of my university degree I took classes on both aboriginal rights and social movement theories. And so yes I have written and debated many times on this topic. While I do not know if that meets with your approved channels of media, it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express a positive view of native rights or a negative view against the blockades. There are many issues I support or don't support, regardless of my involvement in government or the print media. To suggest someone's view must be credited to a particular event is a little presumptuous. I also strongly support gay rights and proportional representation in government, but I didn't see any blockades for those yesterday.

But I do appreciate your enthusiasm for the issue, albeit not your turn-around logic.

Gemini
17-01-2013, 01:42 PM
Protesting on public thoroughfares no doubt gets the publics attention. Even if there are 5 or 500 protesters they still disrupt traffic. No one in the INM camp has yet to say how long these protests will last. Actually no one in the INM camp has come forward to say who the leader is that is co-ordinating these marches. Who is in charge? The AFN chiefs are fractured in regards to these protests, some want them some do not. Chief Spence is not it charge. She seems to be keeping a low key at the moment. Maybe she will surface on Groundhog Day Feb. 2 and if we see her shadow there will be 6 more weeks of protests. (just a joke, settle down). What is the glue that is keeping these protesters together as no one has come forward to say they are the ultimate go to person.

McBoo
17-01-2013, 01:46 PM
Not sure these blocakdes are designed to get media attention - it's a given that they will.

They're to get folks angry enough that they write or call their MP and say, fix this!

Not having been delayed or disrupted, maybe I shouldn't comment on our local Edmonton and St. Albert events, but it seems to me they were conducted peacefeully - and, in fact exhibited some measure of goodwill by allowing at least one lane of NB traffic on the QEII to open.

So, while cudos to our locals, I'm not so sure about everything else. I sense other people's agendas at play when I see the NEB hearings on Northern Gateway being stormed. Or a blockade of hwy 63 - to the nefarious tarsands - being threatened.

Like Occupy, I suspect there are people who don't give a tinker's da*% about treaty rights making hay with Idle No More.

Like to be wrong on that - but it's getting harder and harder to avoid at least considering that possibility.

Replacement
17-01-2013, 02:29 PM
out of curiosity, prior to the blockades, have you ever written what i highlighted above to any elected official at any level of government in the country or to any newspaper or other publication or even anonymously to any internet forum?

if not, the blockades were not just a childish move to get media attention. if not, they were by your own post successful.

^ As part of my university degree I took classes on both aboriginal rights and social movement theories. And so yes I have written and debated many times on this topic. While I do not know if that meets with your approved channels of media, it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express a positive view of native rights or a negative view against the blockades. There are many issues I support or don't support, regardless of my involvement in government or the print media. To suggest someone's view must be credited to a particular event is a little presumptuous. I also strongly support gay rights and proportional representation in government, but I didn't see any blockades for those yesterday.

But I do appreciate your enthusiasm for the issue, albeit not your turn-around logic.
I'm not sure you got what Ken suggested. Whether you agree or not the protest got your attention, got you talking about it, and thats all that something like this really needs. Once the attention and talking starts the serious issues at hand speak for themselves.

Komrade
17-01-2013, 02:54 PM
The blockades are designed to get people talking

Its unfortunate a large amount of the conversation, dare I say a majority is ignorant "get a job / lazy native / racist" conversation.

But for some, I do hope they find out what Idle No More is all about. Write some letters to government. Maybe even take part in a protest of their own.

I just feel like this is going to get worse/uglier than better. Canada has an ugly racist undertone when it comes to First Nations peoples. Here is a perfect/scary example: http://twitter.com/BrothersGrim/status/291690636044824576/photo/1

Gemini
17-01-2013, 03:14 PM
Hard to say how much longer this will go on for. It already seems that the story behind Chief Spence is not on the front page anymore and she is hardly mentioned in the news.
Of course she has now banned the media from asking her the tough questions. When the news source stops conversing with the news media the story is usually relegated to the back pages.

RichardS
17-01-2013, 03:17 PM
...I am really getting annoyed at this tit for tat...no you're racist...no YOU'RE racist....no you're racist MORE than me...you deserve x, y, z, a, b and Cx10^infinity...see how you like it…na na nana na…


...in fact...I'd submit my assumption that this "calling you out as a racist" one-upmanship I am seeing on all sides is the main reason some of the more difficult issues are not being talked about...for on either side if you say something that has far more than a kernel of truth, but makes someone feel a bit bad...then we immediately close our minds and think "way to go whitey..." or "lazy no good for..." well, you get the picture...


…no real discussion takes place when folks come in with the prejudice that everyone is looking at this from a race perspective…nope…everyone clams up and shuts down…


...throw in the asinine comments that I see at times, and the battle will sadly rage on...


…eventually…for real change…people will have to pull up their big person pants…swallow their ego…thicken their skin…and walk in with a real desire to make things better…



…let’s just start talking about the points raised… conditions on the reserves…council accountability (yes, that IS an issue…ask many of the local bands if you doubt me)…external image…opportunity…a culture of defeatism…..entitlement and resentment…malaise on both sides…and a general lack of any true forward progress in many generations…


...the reality to me is that these protests are disorganized...just like the Occupy movement...and when there is disorganization your message is either usurped, misinterpreted, diluted, or lost...


...the main reason (and I agree) that many of the councils are not joining some of these activities is that...through experience...inconveniencing the non-treaty residents generates more ill will than good...yes, we’re talking about it…but is it boomeranging to a discussion that many band councils and Assembly of First Nations leaders do not want to have…?


Like I said before…read up on Clarence Louie...he may not have all the answers…but his rather blunt talk will get you looking at some of the real issues facing Aboriginal communities in Canada from an internal viewpoint…

Gemini
17-01-2013, 03:28 PM
I think there are a lot of chiefs out there that don't want a spotlight put on their spending. Even the natives on the reserves see their chiefs driving around in fancy trucks and jetting off to Ottawa while they are sitting in shacks. One of the reasons Chief Spence has stopped the media scrutiny is that they were starting to ask too many questions in regards to her financial mis-management. They are now banned from the reserve. Some of these reserves have under 500 people on them and they have a chief and numerous people sitting on council. The government not only funds these reserves they also send a lot of money their way in the form of welfare payments. It's annoying when some of these facts are stated that people think you are a racist for saying it. Facts are facts, nothing racist about it. Nothing racist about it if you get annoyed stating those facts.

Thomas Hinderks
17-01-2013, 05:22 PM
Found this on facebook. I won't say if I do or do not agree with it. Just figure this is a good place to repost it.



"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, you are the same decaying matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile" - Fight Club

I...'ve been #IdleTooLong about this whole topic, and I feel like I need to express my point of view without disrupting innocent travelers on highways, and cargo carrying freight trains.
First, allow me to clarify that I am a Cree man with full status. I have family in positions of political power in this very province, and should declare that my opinions are my own. While everyone needles over the finite details of the current situation, I'd like to paint my thoughts for you with much broader strokes.

I'm so very proud of my culture. The way the plains Indians lived on this land was a fantastic example of community, art, respect for our environment, ingenuity, and spirituality. I'm proud of the native inspired tattoos that I sport permanently on my body. As a father, I'm teaching my son that same respect and understanding of where his blood derives from, in the hopes that his pride will outshine the prejudice he will inevitably experience growing up, or at some point in his life.

I'm also very proud to be Canadian. Our vast mosaic of cultures, languages, and beliefs make up this welcoming land of opportunity for all. Whether you like it or not, we all have the same citizenship, but some have a different view on the value of it.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the government bills, documentation, or policy that is driving the current protests, but I've intently watched news stories, read columns, and have regularly monitored the comments being made on facebook. Based on all of this, I feel the need to break my silence on this issue.

1 - It's embarrassing how the #IdleNoMore protest is being handled.
Blocking major traffic thoroughfares does nothing good to bring support and awareness to your cause, it creates immediate animosity towards you. Protesting freely in parks or in front of government buildings seems like a much more productive way to attract the attention of those you seek. The politicians. Not the regular welder-Joe who's just trying to get to work. Hold him up and cost him money? See how much support you'll get out of that guy...

Clarify what you are protesting for, or against. I've never seen such a passionate group of people go forward in protest in such disarray, and without clearly stating what it's all about. If it's generally about your need to be consulted, respected, justified for being mistreated, or the preservation of your culture, then let's be out with it and start a constructive discussion.

Understand that you do not need to be consulted for anything any more than the Canadian citizen next to you does. Your opinion on things doesn't count "more" than anyone else's.
Respect is earned, not given.

There's no question that the native people of yesterday were brutalized, hunted, tortured, and humiliated for decades. It's awful, and no one should ever have to suffer like that. The elders of the time signed those treaties to bring peace, and offer what they hoped would be a leg-up in a new world that they realized couldn't be held at bay. But those days are long over. It defies logic to have the current population pay for the tragedies committed by people that came so long before them.

The preservation of your culture is YOUR job, not anyone else's. For example, Polish, Irish, and Ukrainian societies thrive all over the country with very little or no support from government coffers. They celebrate traditional dance, language, and food all by simply passing it down from generation to generation. Native communities can do the very same thing (and generally do), but without financial support.

2 - "This movement is about the whole environment, its not just about the treaties....The bill that passed now un protects the rivers, lakes, forests, land, etc, etc, so we need this bill to further protect ur childrens futures.....thanks to Harper Govt....rigs n developemtn will pollute the air, waters, etc, etc.."

It's no secret that our Canadian economy is driven by the oil and gas industry. Yes, there have been some awful environmental blunders due to a plethora of different reasons. I heartily agree that we need to protect our natural areas that support wildlife, but I also know that there is aggressive legislation, and powerful government offices in place that already have that very same sentiment at heart. Millions of Canadians support green technology and research, as well as lobby for stronger federal policy. So if that's what this is all about, there's no need to blockade anything, as a majority of people would already agree with you.

3 - "It is about the 480 page Bill that the government has passed without you knowing about it. It went through the house of commons and the senate in 2 wks. 480 pgs long...do you think that many people had time to read it? It says that under age criminals can be punished as adults. It makes more budget cuts. The librarians at schools are being budget cut. It is about ALOT more than Aboriginals, it's about everyone in Canada. The Aboriginals are the ones who started to realize the Bill was gonna to do irreversable damage!"

Back in the days of copying notes off a blackboard or projector in school, I'm certain I've WRITTEN 480 pages in two weeks, let alone read that many. In a political world where literacy at a high level is demanded, I'm willing to bet that most could plow through that many pages in a very short period of time. I suppose the content would be laden with bureaucratic jargon and would need time to fully interpret...but that's why you have a legal team.
Quite frankly, I agree with underage criminals being tried as adults, and I'm willing to bet that a landslide majority of Canadians will agree with me.

Budget cuts are a reality of our democratic world. I'm not sure if this means that librarians from schools are being removed, or the library itself, but the fact of the matter is, our schools rely on a healthy economy for funding. When money gets tight, things get sacrificed. I truly hope that the readily available knowledge in a library would be the last to go.

4 - "It's not about the Aboriginals! That is what they are doing to distract you from what it really is about! It only affects the aboriginals- just like it will effect ALL of us!"
This is very confusing, but seems to sum up the general knowledge about what is going on. Who is "they"? Are we going into conspiracy theory depths here? Do people not realize that we have an official opposition in place as a natural government watchdog to debate everything that in-power government is trying to enact? If there were truly earth shattering implications in the bill in question, the opposition would be whistle blowing and bleating into any available microphone available so fast it would make your head spin.

First and foremost, I'm a human being just like you. I believe in equality. Across the board equality. Our country is so multicultural, that to give any specific group levity over everyone else is completely ridiculous. I'm not familiar with the particulars of old treaties signed, but I get the gist because I have used some of the special privileges provided to me. I do not pay for health care. I did for awhile in my young working life, but then the government discovered my native status and sent me a HUGE apology letter, and a cheque for every dime I had put into the system. Odd. I lived just up the street from my fellow truck driving friends, did the same job, paid the same taxes...yet there I was with this benefit because of my racial background and some papers that were signed all those years ago. I've used it for eye wear. This was particularly handy when I was “up against it” financially, but had broken my glasses welding. Here's the thing though, why should I have an advantage on a co-worker who might be in the same situation? It's not fair, and it needs to stop.

I move that Canadians start their own march towards coast to coast equality, or at least the serious discussion of it. Our country should offer no free rides to anyone. No help for those who refuse to help themselves. No quarter for those who would inhibit the lives and success of others. No limit to what anyone can accomplish with a steely resolve, and a great idea. It doesn't matter who built the first camp fires and communities on this land, it's those that work hard to continue to stoke the flames of collective well being that matter.

As a man that stands by his word, I pledge to never again use my native status to further myself in a way that isn't available to every other Canadian. I will leave my son unregistered, and will teach him the importance of keeping it that way. I am a proud native man, and a hard working, forward thinking Canadian that believes the opportunities and advantages this country has to offer should be available to everyone equally.

- Anthony Sowan
@sowanonair

Alex L

Thanks for posting this even if most are ignoring it.

It is a reasoned and rational piece that brings many things to light beyond the current discussion. Some everyone should make note of.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Replacement
17-01-2013, 06:32 PM
[Found this on facebook. I won't say if I do or do not agree with it. Just figure this is a good place to repost it.


Alex L

Thanks for posting this even if most are ignoring it.

It is a reasoned and rational piece that brings many things to light beyond the current discussion. Some everyone should make note of.

In my highly biased personal opinion

I ignored it because its a disjointed, rambling, lengthy, and seemingly pointless diatribe by a person that several times mentions he knows nothing of what the issues and context is. Not sure how that could be confused with an astute, or informative, post on the matter.

kcantor
17-01-2013, 06:35 PM
if bands like the nk'mip and individuals like anthony stowan were typical results of what is in place for bands and natives and not atypical examples, my guess is there would be no "idle no more" movement, fractured or not. which would be a good thing. we, collectively, simply (or not so simply) need to get there from here.

Replacement
17-01-2013, 06:45 PM
if bands like the nk'mip and individuals like anthony stowan were typical results of what is in place for bands and natives and not atypical examples, my guess is there would be no "idle no more" movement, fractured or not. which would be a good thing. we, collectively, simply (or not so simply) need to get there from here.
Disagree. All the letter indicates is somebody that has been completely assimilated to the degree they don't even comprehend the issues, rights, lineage or how first nations peoples and their livelihood have been irreparably harmed by imperialism. But who then pretends to speak to all the issues without so much as the responsibility of knowledge, education, or information at hand. Which results in rebuttal that is basically meandering, stream of thought, nonsense.

Its insular, and hypocritical as well. So the DJ has *succeeded* in completely adopting precepts of new western society while benefitting from his own rights ceded him, is it necessary then for him to then engage in dismissal of his own people's and heritage that he supposedly seeks to foster in his children?

So which is it? A father wanting to pass on a proud vision of his heritage to his children or denigrate, and denounce it and turn away from it? A classic philosophical battle by the way which is its own divisive force among native peoples, for instance that some of the worst judgement comes from within.

Gemini
17-01-2013, 07:01 PM
Queen declines to intervene in Chief Spence's request..........

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/17/queen-chief-spence-appeal.html

Replacement
17-01-2013, 07:04 PM
For convenience I've bolded the curious, and erroneous assumptions that the DJ takes for granted in hiliting how much is wrong with his post. Again basically stating he hasn't taken the time to properly understand the issues, knows next to nothing about the omnibus bill, and is apparently oblivious to how fervently the opposition in the House of Commons has tried to block the bill. On that point alone this individual is completely clueless on the topic. I could hardly read past that eroneous assumption.




"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, you are the same decaying matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile" - Fight Club

I...'ve been #IdleTooLong about this whole topic, and I feel like I need to express my point of view without disrupting innocent travelers on highways, and cargo carrying freight trains.
First, allow me to clarify that I am a Cree man with full status. I have family in positions of political power in this very province, and should declare that my opinions are my own. While everyone needles over the finite details of the current situation, I'd like to paint my thoughts for you with much broader strokes.

I'm so very proud of my culture. The way the plains Indians lived on this land was a fantastic example of community, art, respect for our environment, ingenuity, and spirituality. I'm proud of the native inspired tattoos that I sport permanently on my body. As a father, I'm teaching my son that same respect and understanding of where his blood derives from, in the hopes that his pride will outshine the prejudice he will inevitably experience growing up, or at some point in his life.

I'm also very proud to be Canadian. Our vast mosaic of cultures, languages, and beliefs make up this welcoming land of opportunity for all. Whether you like it or not, we all have the same citizenship, but some have a different view on the value of it.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the government bills, documentation, or policy that is driving the current protests, but I've intently watched news stories, read columns, and have regularly monitored the comments being made on facebook. Based on all of this, I feel the need to break my silence on this issue.

1 - It's embarrassing how the #IdleNoMore protest is being handled.
Blocking major traffic thoroughfares does nothing good to bring support and awareness to your cause, it creates immediate animosity towards you. Protesting freely in parks or in front of government buildings seems like a much more productive way to attract the attention of those you seek. The politicians. Not the regular welder-Joe who's just trying to get to work. Hold him up and cost him money? See how much support you'll get out of that guy...

Clarify what you are protesting for, or against. I've never seen such a passionate group of people go forward in protest in such disarray, and without clearly stating what it's all about. If it's generally about your need to be consulted, respected, justified for being mistreated, or the preservation of your culture, then let's be out with it and start a constructive discussion.

Understand that you do not need to be consulted for anything any more than the Canadian citizen next to you does. Your opinion on things doesn't count "more" than anyone else's.
Respect is earned, not given.

There's no question that the native people of yesterday were brutalized, hunted, tortured, and humiliated for decades. It's awful, and no one should ever have to suffer like that. The elders of the time signed those treaties to bring peace, and offer what they hoped would be a leg-up in a new world that they realized couldn't be held at bay. But those days are long over. It defies logic to have the current population pay for the tragedies committed by people that came so long before them.

The preservation of your culture is YOUR job, not anyone else's. For example, Polish, Irish, and Ukrainian societies thrive all over the country with very little or no support from government coffers. They celebrate traditional dance, language, and food all by simply passing it down from generation to generation. Native communities can do the very same thing (and generally do), but without financial support.

2 - "This movement is about the whole environment, its not just about the treaties....The bill that passed now un protects the rivers, lakes, forests, land, etc, etc, so we need this bill to further protect ur childrens futures.....thanks to Harper Govt....rigs n developemtn will pollute the air, waters, etc, etc.."

It's no secret that our Canadian economy is driven by the oil and gas industry. Yes, there have been some awful environmental blunders due to a plethora of different reasons. I heartily agree that we need to protect our natural areas that support wildlife, but I also know that there is aggressive legislation, and powerful government offices in place that already have that very same sentiment at heart. Millions of Canadians support green technology and research, as well as lobby for stronger federal policy. So if that's what this is all about, there's no need to blockade anything, as a majority of people would already agree with you.

3 - "It is about the 480 page Bill that the government has passed without you knowing about it. It went through the house of commons and the senate in 2 wks. 480 pgs long...do you think that many people had time to read it? It says that under age criminals can be punished as adults. It makes more budget cuts. The librarians at schools are being budget cut. It is about ALOT more than Aboriginals, it's about everyone in Canada. The Aboriginals are the ones who started to realize the Bill was gonna to do irreversable damage!"

Back in the days of copying notes off a blackboard or projector in school, I'm certain I've WRITTEN 480 pages in two weeks, let alone read that many. In a political world where literacy at a high level is demanded, I'm willing to bet that most could plow through that many pages in a very short period of time. I suppose the content would be laden with bureaucratic jargon and would need time to fully interpret...but that's why you have a legal team.
Quite frankly, I agree with underage criminals being tried as adults, and I'm willing to bet that a landslide majority of Canadians will agree with me.

Budget cuts are a reality of our democratic world. I'm not sure if this means that librarians from schools are being removed, or the library itself, but the fact of the matter is, our schools rely on a healthy economy for funding. When money gets tight, things get sacrificed. I truly hope that the readily available knowledge in a library would be the last to go.

4 - "It's not about the Aboriginals! That is what they are doing to distract you from what it really is about! It only affects the aboriginals- just like it will effect ALL of us!"
This is very confusing, but seems to sum up the general knowledge about what is going on. Who is "they"? Are we going into conspiracy theory depths here? Do people not realize that we have an official opposition in place as a natural government watchdog to debate everything that in-power government is trying to enact? If there were truly earth shattering implications in the bill in question, the opposition would be whistle blowing and bleating into any available microphone available so fast it would make your head spin.

First and foremost, I'm a human being just like you. I believe in equality. Across the board equality. Our country is so multicultural, that to give any specific group levity over everyone else is completely ridiculous. I'm not familiar with the particulars of old treaties signed, but I get the gist because I have used some of the special privileges provided to me. I do not pay for health care. I did for awhile in my young working life, but then the government discovered my native status and sent me a HUGE apology letter, and a cheque for every dime I had put into the system. Odd. I lived just up the street from my fellow truck driving friends, did the same job, paid the same taxes...yet there I was with this benefit because of my racial background and some papers that were signed all those years ago. I've used it for eye wear. This was particularly handy when I was “up against it” financially, but had broken my glasses welding. Here's the thing though, why should I have an advantage on a co-worker who might be in the same situation? It's not fair, and it needs to stop.

I move that Canadians start their own march towards coast to coast equality, or at least the serious discussion of it. Our country should offer no free rides to anyone. No help for those who refuse to help themselves. No quarter for those who would inhibit the lives and success of others. No limit to what anyone can accomplish with a steely resolve, and a great idea. It doesn't matter who built the first camp fires and communities on this land, it's those that work hard to continue to stoke the flames of collective well being that matter.

As a man that stands by his word, I pledge to never again use my native status to further myself in a way that isn't available to every other Canadian. I will leave my son unregistered, and will teach him the importance of keeping it that way. I am a proud native man, and a hard working, forward thinking Canadian that believes the opportunities and advantages this country has to offer should be available to everyone equally.

- Anthony Sowan
@sowanonair[/QUOTE]

kcantor
17-01-2013, 07:21 PM
if bands like the nk'mip and individuals like anthony stowan were typical results of what is in place for bands and natives and not atypical examples, my guess is there would be no "idle no more" movement, fractured or not. which would be a good thing. we, collectively, simply (or not so simply) need to get there from here.
Disagree. All the letter indicates is somebody that has been completely assimilated to the degree they don't even comprehend the issues, rights, lineage or how first nations peoples and their livelihood have been irreparably harmed by imperialism. But who then pretends to speak to all the issues without so much as the responsibility of knowledge, education, or information at hand. Which results in rebuttal that is basically meandering, stream of thought, nonsense.

Its insular, and hypocritical as well. So Mr. Sowan has *succeeded* in completely adopting precepts of new western society while benefitting from his own rights ceded him, is it necessary then for him to then engage in dismissal of his own people's and heritage that he supposedly seeks to foster in his children?

So which is it? A father wanting to pass on a proud vision of his heritage to his children or denigrate, and denounce it and turn away from it? A classic philosophical battle by the way which is its own divisive force among native peoples, for instance that some of the worst judgement comes from within.
okay.... now that i have been crapped upon by all sides for trying to respect the view points of all sides in very complex relationships, i suppose it's time for me to leave this topic entirely to others.

for me this discussion was always about respect and opportunity, something not all bands or natives have on their reserves or in their lives. as for your post, you can't expect to obtain and retain respect and opportunity and then accuse those who make personal choices different from yours of being insular and hypocritical - two traits you seem to be demonstrating. just because they may have made choices that were not the "right" choice for you does not invalidate them or their choices.

it seems to me that freedom and equality comes when all of us are able to make those kinds of choices (not in precluding anyone from making them or denigrating them as a result) while ensuring that we can offer a decent quality of life and opportunity for our children regardless of which choices we make.

Replacement
17-01-2013, 07:33 PM
if bands like the nk'mip and individuals like anthony stowan were typical results of what is in place for bands and natives and not atypical examples, my guess is there would be no "idle no more" movement, fractured or not. which would be a good thing. we, collectively, simply (or not so simply) need to get there from here.
Disagree. All the letter indicates is somebody that has been completely assimilated to the degree they don't even comprehend the issues, rights, lineage or how first nations peoples and their livelihood have been irreparably harmed by imperialism. But who then pretends to speak to all the issues without so much as the responsibility of knowledge, education, or information at hand. Which results in rebuttal that is basically meandering, stream of thought, nonsense.

Its insular, and hypocritical as well. The DJ has perhaps *succeeded* in completely adopting precepts of new western society while benefitting from his own rights ceded him, is it necessary then for him to then engage in dismissal of his own people's and heritage that he supposedly seeks to foster in his children?

So which is it? A father wanting to pass on a proud vision of his heritage to his children or denigrate, and denounce it and turn away from it? A classic philosophical battle by the way which is its own divisive force among native peoples, for instance that some of the worst judgement comes from within.
okay.... now that i have been crapped upon by all sides for trying to respect the view points of all sides in very complex relationships, i suppose it's time for me to leave this topic entirely to others.

for me this discussion was always about respect and opportunity, something not all bands or natives have on their reserves or in their lives. as for your post, you can't expect to obtain and retain respect and opportunity and then accuse those who make personal choices different from yours of being insular and hypocritical - two traits you seem to be demonstrating. just because they may have made choices that were not the "right" choice for you does not invalidate them or their choices.

it seems to me that freedom and equality comes when all of us are able to make those kinds of choices (not in precluding anyone from making them or denigrating them as a result) while ensuring that we can offer a decent quality of life and opportunity for our children regardless of which choices we make.
Not sure what you're saying with any of this Ken.

I'm critical(very) of what was written, not you, and the odd thing is how poorly that individual understands the rights, issues, dilemna, involved. It has nothing to do with me, or "my choices" whatever that means. ftr I'm not first nations heritage, I simply praise the protestors for standing up for what they believe in, standing up to the Omnibus bill, and the deplorable maintaining of this environment that has gone on far too long.

What concerns me is how people can use a soundbite quote like the DJ's at face value because he's a first nations person denouncing his own, which would be fine, except that said person is speaking blind in the wilderness about things he doesn't have the faintest understanding of and even says so. Yet for many rhetoric like he spouted could be a lightning rod of discontentment that fosters only more ignorance of the issues at hand, summary dismissal of concerns and first nations peoples, and gets us back on the starting block instead of proceeding. The spreading of ignorance is hardly helpful in the dialogue.

Perhaps I haven't made it clear but I've appreciated your input on this topic Ken. But its of course OK to disagree on some finer points and subtexts.Where we disagree presently is on "getting there" and perhaps what "there is. The poster in question is advocating complete complicity and acceptance and conformity. My own take is that in our present ecological impending catastrophe the "there" is arrived at with proper consultation and compromise and with standards that are more congruent with ecological, environmental, and economic sustainability. Of course none know more of the rampant degradation and deterioration than those that have lived in lands for 100's of years. its up to society to listen to these concerns and not discount them as the poster did.

Mla
17-01-2013, 07:40 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Women never received millions of taxpayers dollars in handouts then shut down a major highway because they were angry they weren't getting more. That's not a stereotype that's the truth.

Thomas Hinderks
17-01-2013, 09:50 PM
KCantor

With respect to the above posts.

You have my complete agreement with you note and response.

Mr. Sowan letter is his personal perspective and path. He outlines his knowledge of the topics and his background and gives his thoughts.

He acknowledges the need to settle land claims and other issues IMO and expresses the need to go beyond. More than some here and else where.

While I don't agree with all he says I admire the fact he is likely more knowledgeable and has more first hand insight than most on this forum.

Ken, keep going

In my highly biased personal opinion

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 10:43 AM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Women never received millions of taxpayers dollars in handouts then shut down a major highway because they were angry they weren't getting more. That's not a stereotype that's the truth.

Every Municipality receives Million in funding. Your comments are racist.. I'm not kidding.. that's the truth.

What is sad is you are unable to step back and see that.

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 10:45 AM
KCantor

With respect to the above posts.

You have my complete agreement with you note and response.

Mr. Sowan letter is his personal perspective and path. He outlines his knowledge of the topics and his background and gives his thoughts.

He acknowledges the need to settle land claims and other issues IMO and expresses the need to go beyond. More than some here and else where.

While I don't agree with all he says I admire the fact he is likely more knowledgeable and has more first hand insight than most on this forum.

Ken, keep going

In my highly biased personal opinion
Is it even personal.. he has attached this to his work Facebook profile. can I, acting as a public face for my company, actually express my true feelings?!

He works in media after all...

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 10:50 AM
9 questions about Idle No More

What's the goal of the Idle No More protests?
How did Idle No More get started?
What is Bill C-45?
That doesn't sound like something that would spark a protest movement, especially an aboriginal rights movement. What's the issue?
What are some of the movement's key objections to the changes to those 3 acts?
What's the connection between the hunger strike by Chief Theresa Spence and Idle No More?
What is #IdleNoMore?
What's the connection between the Assembly of First Nations and the Idle No More movement?
What has been Prime Minister Stephen Harper's response to the Idle No More movement?

for some insightful answers free or racism click the following link

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/04/f-idlenomore-faq.html

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 10:53 AM
For REAL insight into the issues from a man who is knowledgeable on the subject... click below. Notice how he recognizes the institutionalized discrimination that exists within our system


Paul Martin says Ottawa has 'no understanding' of native issues
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/16/f-idle-no-more-paul-martin.html

Q: The Kelowna Accord was criticized by some as overly ambitious and expensive. Do you feel this type of mass funding in social welfare programs for aboriginal communities is exactly what's needed now?

A: The Kelowna Accord was not mass funding. It was very targeted to education, healthcare, clean water, economic development, housing and accounting — which is to build up financial capacity, to provide coherent books of account and that sort of thing.

It was very directed. [For example], there is a gross underfunding in terms of primary and secondary schools for education on reserve. The students there are receiving 20 to 30 per cent less per capita than a school off-reserve funded by the provinces. That’s immoral and it’s discrimination. It’s one of the reasons why graduation rates are so much lower for First Nations kids.

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 10:59 AM
From the national post...

Tasha Kheiriddin: Aboriginal apartheid sentences Canadian natives to misery

zHiWHRNUIgc

Children living in such squalor in non-native environments would be likely removed from their families and placed in foster care. But the grim legacy of the residential school system, and the political incorrectness of jeopardizing the maintenance of their aboriginal heritage, has effectively taken this option off the table for native kids. The result is that they are left to suffer in places like Attawapiskat, Davis Inlet, and the like, while the rest of the country remains ignorant of their plight, until its hits crisis levels, or a politician takes a personal interest.

"for the past six decades under the Indian Act, by perpetuating a system of aboriginal apartheid, sometimes with the ulterior motive of asserting Canada’s sovereignty in far flung northern locations. Inuit communities were resettled to places such as Grise Fiord and Resolute Bay in the 1950’s, purportedly to place them closer to food sources, but in reality to serve as the equivalent of human flagposts, bolstering Canadian claims to the High Arctic. Attawapiskat was also not a permanent settlement until the 1970’s: it was the summer home of the Omushkego James Bay Cree, who would head inland or down the coast in the wintertime to hunt and trap.

Aboriginal apartheid benefits no one, except the Indian industry. That’s the term coined to describe the thousands of bureaucrats, lawyers, advisors, and activists whose livelihoods depend on the continued misery of aboriginal Canadians- and the exploitation of the legal relationship between them and Ottawa, carved out by the Indian Act and treaties signed centuries ago. "

Mla
18-01-2013, 11:46 AM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Women never received millions of taxpayers dollars in handouts then shut down a major highway because they were angry they weren't getting more. That's not a stereotype that's the truth.

Every Municipality receives Million in funding. Your comments are racist.. I'm not kidding.. that's the truth.

What is sad is you are unable to step back and see that.

I stated the truth. I don't see how the truth is racist.

Medwards
18-01-2013, 12:34 PM
I wish I could be tax exempt

richardW
18-01-2013, 12:35 PM
i am still a bit confused as to what the protest is about. Is it a protest against bill C-45 itself or just aboriginal affairs in general? i read through the relevant C-45 sections (talk about boring) and the changes didnt seem that extreme to me but i am not really an expert in the subject.

anyone have some better insite into this that they could share?

Hilman
18-01-2013, 12:37 PM
^^^ & ^^ Agreed, that is a factual statement and is not racist. I agree Medwards, can I get a free university education too?

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 01:08 PM
^ Prove to me that every aboriginal gets a free university education?!

You won't be able to because it's not true.. just another example of the rampant lies we continue to spread due to ignorance about the situation.

Medwards
18-01-2013, 01:09 PM
Show me where anyone said every? It's certainly provable that many do receive free university education.

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 01:15 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Women never received millions of taxpayers dollars in handouts then shut down a major highway because they were angry they weren't getting more. That's not a stereotype that's the truth.

Every Municipality receives Million in funding. Your comments are racist.. I'm not kidding.. that's the truth.

What is sad is you are unable to step back and see that.

I stated the truth. I don't see how the truth is racist.

It's not the "truth" its the institutionalized lies we continue to spread. As I point out every community is funded.

Maybe you want to answer why non reserve schools are funded 20-30% more than reserve schools? Why do we continue to put up with racist laws under the form of the Indian act?

You scream for things to change but in order for that to happen the federal gov;t hast to sit down with the aboriginal population and actually deal with the situation. NOT impose changes upon them without consultation. They have a right to self governance under their treaties.. That has to be respected....

Don't forget we also had an accord that would have seen controlled investment into things such as education. Harper walked away from it... without any conversation with the people it effected.

I am sorry but screaming things such as "get a Job" and "stop whining" makes you look just as bad as any dishonest person misusing band funds. Painting people with broad generalizations is wrong and I assure you almost none of you have actually taken any time to understand what is going on. You are just spouting the same hate you have heard from your parents/grandparents/media over the years.

MrOilers
18-01-2013, 01:20 PM
Why do we continue to put up with racist laws under the form of the Indian act?

I agree with this. I think the Indian Act needs to be abolished and replaced with legislation that will actually do something constructive.

Not to change the subject, and I might be mistaken, but I believe this is something the old Reform Party wanted to do as part of their plan of reforming the way the Federal government presently deals with Aboriginal affairs.

Medwards
18-01-2013, 01:24 PM
I think it's time we treated everyone the same. We are all Canadian after all. No more special treatment for one group or another. Treat us all the same and you'll find the hate and racism go away for the most part

Replacement
18-01-2013, 01:26 PM
For REAL insight into the issues from a man who is knowledgeable on the subject... click below. Notice how he recognizes the institutionalized discrimination that exists within our system


Paul Martin says Ottawa has 'no understanding' of native issues
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/16/f-idle-no-more-paul-martin.html

Q: The Kelowna Accord was criticized by some as overly ambitious and expensive. Do you feel this type of mass funding in social welfare programs for aboriginal communities is exactly what's needed now?

A: The Kelowna Accord was not mass funding. It was very targeted to education, healthcare, clean water, economic development, housing and accounting — which is to build up financial capacity, to provide coherent books of account and that sort of thing.

It was very directed. [For example], there is a gross underfunding in terms of primary and secondary schools for education on reserve. The students there are receiving 20 to 30 per cent less per capita than a school off-reserve funded by the provinces. That’s immoral and it’s discrimination. It’s one of the reasons why graduation rates are so much lower for First Nations kids.

Some great work on the thread EDP and thanks for that. Its incumbent on an informed electorate to explore all these issues thoroughly. If people want to speak out on these matters fine, thats open dialogue. Theres always a hope however that people will explore these issues in greater detail, increase awareness, and be part of a solution rather than backing status quo or dismissing concerns.

This is kind of connected and I post this part because in other threads people have suggested things like residential schools were closed decades ago, indoctrination ended long ago, abuse and prejudice treatment of natives by institutions stopped back in the dark ages and no longer exists etc.

Heres just one example of what First nations families, children, communities, are suffering right now. Further institutional injustice, abuse, and vastly differential treatment and intervention not acknowledging solutions for first nations families and communities.

http://www.ammsa.com/publications/alberta-sweetgrass/children%E2%80%99s-advocate-calls-government-commitment-address-care-issues%EF%BB%BF



Graff, in the 2011-2012 Childrens advocate annual report states that the “disproportionate number of Aboriginal young people in government care increased again in 2011.” That disturbing statistic is a result of more Aboriginal children being taken into care and a decrease of non-Aboriginal children needing government care. Although Aboriginal children account for nine per cent of the population, in March 2012 they comprised 68 per cent of children in care. In 2011, 66 per cent of children in government care were Aboriginal




“Some of the caseworkers don’t know how to work with our families. They’re making decisions rather than working with the families and trying to find different solutions,” said Iahtail. “If we’re going to be doing some work, we’ve all got to be on the same page.”


WE devise and maintain systems that don't work effectively for first nations children, youth, or families, no we don't have residential schools anymore, but we still have regular and ongoing complete apprehension, displacement, and often permanent isolation for children and youth where they are often entirely removed from familial bonds and contact for much of, if not all of their youth. These children often being in countless residential in care placements with many placements subsequently being deemed unsuitable and in often cited cases arguably with more risks than homes these children were apprehended from. These children just accumulate emotional scarring and trauma in these settings and we've learned precious little since Richard Cardinal.

Major problems that exist:

1)Investigating workers that don't fully understand or work effectively with first nations peoples.

2)One size and model fits all thinking. Applying homogenous models to peoples of all cultures and some of whom (not just first nations) would be much better served by models, treatment, service delivery, that was more specifically streamlined to respective needs and solutions.

3)Once children get into the system, and in care, the amount of times TGO ramps up to PGO and children are not returned to families is extreme, particularly for first nations youth.

4)Lack of effective proactive interventions and outreach in families and communities to address concerns before they arise.

5)Less than ideal discovery of familial resources, for instance fostering first nations youth with relatives or first nations families and communities. Far less maladjustment of youth would occur if their placement, treatment, and family recovery occurred close to home and with people they know. More extensive family group conferencing and family based solutions need to occur.

I should note some positive interventions above occur but far less than they should. The result is 100's of thousands of first nations children and youth scarred often for life and that could all tell stories of abuse that most people have no idea exists here.

Replacement
18-01-2013, 01:27 PM
I think it's time we treated everyone the same. We are all Canadian after all. No more special treatment for one group or another. Treat us all the same and you'll find the hate and racism go away for the most part
This would actually solve more problems then you might realize. But our institutional systems often don't treat first nations youth, children, and families, the same. That would be a starting point for generational healing. If it ever happened.

Medwards
18-01-2013, 01:37 PM
gTpIcFcPlSQ

Replacement
18-01-2013, 01:42 PM
^ A very good conciliatory approach and on this we do agree on.

As this movement goes on approaches that are deemed more successful in some jurisdictions would likely spread around when word gets out about an approach.

Maybe Timmy's could get behind some of this.:)

debos
18-01-2013, 01:45 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Again... they just aren't comparable issues. This movement is not after equality in any way. It also isn't comparable to the American civil rights movement or gay rights.

I understand the temptation to draw associations between movements that one might think are aimed at addressing the plight of oppressed people. I also understand the temptation to subsequently support them based on an appeal to emotion. But the issues at hand here a fundamentally different and have a unique frame of reference.

Dialog
18-01-2013, 01:47 PM
I wish I could be tax exempt

Do you wish you could be native?

Replacement
18-01-2013, 01:51 PM
KCantor

With respect to the above posts.

You have my complete agreement with you note and response.

Mr. Sowan letter is his personal perspective and path. He outlines his knowledge of the topics and his background and gives his thoughts.

He acknowledges the need to settle land claims and other issues IMO and expresses the need to go beyond. More than some here and else where.

While I don't agree with all he says I admire the fact he is likely more knowledgeable and has more first hand insight than most on this forum.

Ken, keep going

In my highly biased personal opinion

If he had substantive knowledge on the topic at hand I would have no issue with his thoughts which are expressed publicly through several mediums including a radio station where he is in the role as DJ.

If I got testy in the thread its because I have decades of knowledge on this subject and I don't take lightly to misinformation on this and related topics.

This is his opinion, fine, he expresses it in declarative and dismissve fashion without fully understanding the issues, what the protest is about, and lacking a full understanding of what challenges even confront other peoples in his culture. Any elder would want to have a long chat with this lad about what he's disseminating.

One of the increasing challenges in present day dialogue is sorting through half baked narratives and assertions that can often find their way on social media and with everybody now potentially being a pundit. It takes time, and of course I'm guilty as well, but the new responsibility since all of can disseminate information more than ever before, and even viral information, is to yield this new found power somewhat responsibly. Especially in terms of political topics. Again I acknowledge an area of work for all of us.

The mediums are the message. Now we have to work that much harder to sort out what information to believe to be an informed electorate.

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 02:03 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Again... they just aren't comparable issues. This movement is not after equality in any way. It also isn't comparable to the American civil rights movement or gay rights.

I understand the temptation to draw associations between movements that one might think are aimed at addressing the plight of oppressed people. I also understand the temptation to subsequently support them based on an appeal to emotion. But the issues at hand here a fundamentally different and have a unique frame of reference.

you are missing the point.. Just because public opinion is in favor of one thing or another it doesn't mean its right.

Just like when public opinion favored arresting homosexuals and public opinion preferred women didn't vote.

Nor asking the "public" to comment on issue that are misunderstood or are not really understood is redundant. Again like asking me to do a poll on nuclear Physics.

At one time in South Africa Public opinion polls wold have favored apartheid as well.... Much like this one does today.

edmonton daily photo
18-01-2013, 02:08 PM
For REAL insight into the issues from a man who is knowledgeable on the subject... click below. Notice how he recognizes the institutionalized discrimination that exists within our system


Paul Martin says Ottawa has 'no understanding' of native issues
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/16/f-idle-no-more-paul-martin.html

Q: The Kelowna Accord was criticized by some as overly ambitious and expensive. Do you feel this type of mass funding in social welfare programs for aboriginal communities is exactly what's needed now?

A: The Kelowna Accord was not mass funding. It was very targeted to education, healthcare, clean water, economic development, housing and accounting — which is to build up financial capacity, to provide coherent books of account and that sort of thing.

It was very directed. [For example], there is a gross underfunding in terms of primary and secondary schools for education on reserve. The students there are receiving 20 to 30 per cent less per capita than a school off-reserve funded by the provinces. That’s immoral and it’s discrimination. It’s one of the reasons why graduation rates are so much lower for First Nations kids.

Some great work on the thread EDP and thanks for that.

Thanks... all i do is make sure that i read news from VARIOUS sources and always remember there are two sides and that you can't form a balanced opinion unless you try to understand both sides.

Medwards
18-01-2013, 02:21 PM
I wish I could be tax exempt

Do you wish you could be native?

I wish my race and skin colour didn't matter

Dialog
18-01-2013, 02:26 PM
I wish I could be tax exempt

Do you wish you could be native?

I wish my race and skin colour didn't matter

Yah... but they did, and they still do, which brings us back to the reality of today.

debos
18-01-2013, 02:35 PM
Public opinion against Idle No More protests - Ipso Reid

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/public-opinion-stands-against-chief-theresa-spence-idle-181852988.html

At one time woman's rights would have also received negative public opinion along with many other examples..... Public opinion does not makes something just or unjust.

Again... they just aren't comparable issues. This movement is not after equality in any way. It also isn't comparable to the American civil rights movement or gay rights.

I understand the temptation to draw associations between movements that one might think are aimed at addressing the plight of oppressed people. I also understand the temptation to subsequently support them based on an appeal to emotion. But the issues at hand here a fundamentally different and have a unique frame of reference.

you are missing the point.. Just because public opinion is in favor of one thing or another it doesn't mean its right.

Just like when public opinion favored arresting homosexuals and public opinion preferred women didn't vote.

Nor asking the "public" to comment on issue that are misunderstood or are not really understood is redundant. Again like asking me to do a poll on nuclear Physics.

At one time in South Africa Public opinion polls wold have favored apartheid as well.... Much like this one does today.

Sure, sometimes the public isn't right and sometimes they are. You could say that there is no direct correlation between what the public thinks and what is right. Hopefully you understand how this applies to what you just said.

Only being able to frame ones arguments as corollaries indicates that one does not understand the issue.

Admin
18-01-2013, 08:03 PM
This is the last time I am going to say this. Should this continue from this point forward, I will start unapproving posts that abuse the race issue, and then I will start suspending accounts that repeatedly abuse this insult.

Please stop saying someone else is racist. That comment is too easy to apply to anyone here, especially since it is such an easy catch-all for comments you simply don't like. There is a reason why the real world does not play the race card as often as I have seen it abused in this thread.

Debate points. Debate them line by line if you want to. Stop with the name calling and the attempts to say one person is racist over another.

Gemini
18-01-2013, 08:43 PM
^Thanks for calling the guilty party out who was flashing the race card. It tends to stiffle the debate as you get to the stage you don't even want to say that cocker spaniels are not your favorite dog in case you get called the r word. I suppose it's a certain persons coping mechanism when they think the debate is not going their way.
I suggest that people who do not want to listen to someone else's views create their own threads and then argue with themselves. That way they, or their alter ego, can always be right.

Thomas Hinderks
18-01-2013, 08:46 PM
EDP, Replacement

To be honest I am really starting to have a problem with the attitude and tactics of your posts.

But in an effort to not go off without understanding your points of view (or maybe to not mis understand your posts) and get a little clarity to your views I would really like to know what YOU believe everyone having "Equal Rights" really is.

I'm not interested in dictionary or wiki definitions, I really want to know what you believe in your words.

Thank you

AShetsen
18-01-2013, 08:46 PM
I'd like to point out that race is integral to this whole issue. If you object to the label "racist" being used in context and exactly in the dictionary meaning of the word, I suggest you shut down this discussion.

envaneo
18-01-2013, 09:53 PM
^ Prove to me that every aboriginal gets a free university education?!

You won't be able to because it's not true.. just another example of the rampant lies we continue to spread due to ignorance about the situation.

FN people don't get free University education.

My problem with this idol no more movement is FN think the roads belong to them when in reality the roads belong to tax payers. So who really owns the roads FN blocks? The Crown? FN? just sayin.

Admin
18-01-2013, 10:10 PM
I'd like to point out that race is integral to this whole issue. If you object to the label "racist" being used in context and exactly in the dictionary meaning of the word, I suggest you shut down this discussion.

Given the amount of report posts, don't tempt me.

Replacement
18-01-2013, 10:13 PM
EDP, Replacement

To be honest I am really starting to have a problem with the attitude and tactics of your posts.

But in an effort to not go off without understanding your points of view (or maybe to not mis understand your posts) and get a little clarity to your views I would really like to know what YOU believe everyone having "Equal Rights" really is.

I'm not interested in dictionary or wiki definitions, I really want to know what you believe in your words.

Thank you
What I would first request of you (because this is perfectly reasonable) is for you to go back and read some of my posts more thoroughly on this topic. I think it possible you have jumped to some conclusions and you are reading me the wrong way on this. Which is unfortunate because we've had several good exchanges in the past.

I will state I'm honestly perturbed with your assumption that I don't know the full breadth of this topic.

Hint(again) I wouldn't go around questioning your knowledge of aircraft would I? So you can choose to defer to me on this one topic or not.

All I ask from anybody, and including the DJ is that people be reasonably informed in the dialogue. Thats it. Unfortunately the DJ's diatribe, that had little basis in fact, went viral. Such is life in the non critical twitter, facebook universe.

Thats more my issue, Not the DJ, but how information is now derived, perpetuated, disseminated in the social media and with critical analysis of the same not usually occurring until the information hits more critically interactive media but at which point people already believe in the information at face value. :(

Kony 2112 would be a textbook case of how such social media are developing falsehood, misinformation, and noise, that then gets perpetuated endlessly to paint issues with highly misleading information. People earnestly tried to further this Kony falshood right on this board trying to elicit more people to the cause. I called it out as manipulated, half baked, one sided, and dishonest video from the start.

Thats what I take issue with. Really we all should.

Gemini
18-01-2013, 10:28 PM
^There are a couple of things we cannot deny in regards to Mr. Sowan and his thoughts and observations. One, they were his own words and as much as you may not have agreed with him he is entitled to write them. Another thing, Mr. Sowan put his real name to his words which is more than I can say for some of us, yes, me included. By Mr. Sowan using his real name he opened himself up to criticism that may not be warranted.

Thomas Hinderks
19-01-2013, 10:45 AM
Replacement

What I would first request of you (because this is perfectly reasonable) is for you to go back and read some of my posts more thoroughly on this topic. I think it possible you have jumped to some conclusions and you are reading me the wrong way on this. Which is unfortunate because we've had several good exchanges in the past.I have, partly because we have had many good exchanges and partly because I was trying to figure out if I was mis reading what was being written.


I will state I'm honestly perturbed with your assumption that I don't know the full breadth of this topic.

Hint(again) I wouldn't go around questioning your knowledge of aircraft would I? So you can choose to defer to me on this one topic or not.I haven't questioned your knowledge, disagree with some of you thoughts/opinions ...yep, questioning the attitude and tactics...definitely both yours and EDP's.

Which is why I asked both yourself and EDP, in all sincerity...

But in an effort to not go off without understanding your points of view (or maybe to not mis understand your posts) and get a little clarity to your views I would really like to know what YOU believe everyone having "Equal Rights" really is.

I'm not interested in dictionary or wiki definitions, I really want to know what you believe in your words.

Thank youBecause despite having a problem with some of what you are posting I am trying hard to understand where you are coming from and I feel an answer to my question will possibly give me the insight to do so.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Replacement
19-01-2013, 11:05 AM
Replacement

What I would first request of you (because this is perfectly reasonable) is for you to go back and read some of my posts more thoroughly on this topic. I think it possible you have jumped to some conclusions and you are reading me the wrong way on this. Which is unfortunate because we've had several good exchanges in the past.I have, partly because we have had many good exchanges and partly because I was trying to figure out if I was mis reading what was being written.


I will state I'm honestly perturbed with your assumption that I don't know the full breadth of this topic.

Hint(again) I wouldn't go around questioning your knowledge of aircraft would I? So you can choose to defer to me on this one topic or not.I haven't questioned your knowledge, disagree with some of you thoughts/opinions ...yep, questioning the attitude and tactics...definitely both yours and EDP's.

Which is why I asked both yourself and EDP, in all sincerity...

But in an effort to not go off without understanding your points of view (or maybe to not mis understand your posts) and get a little clarity to your views I would really like to know what YOU believe everyone having "Equal Rights" really is.

I'm not interested in dictionary or wiki definitions, I really want to know what you believe in your words.

Thank youBecause despite having a problem with some of what you are posting I am trying hard to understand where you are coming from and I feel an answer to my question will possibly give me the insight to do so.

In my highly biased personal opinion
I would first have to have some idea of exactly what you are taking issue with as far as my "tactics". I really don't comprehend. Next, I haven't expanded on "equal rights" and that hasn't been a focal point for me so I'm not sure what you are questioning there either.

It feels as if your feeling consists at least partly of us disagreeing on this issue, which is fine, we're all entitled to our opinion and I wouldn't think any less of you or others.

If its the way I approached the issue of the DJ letter and going too hard against that then I apoligize. It is emotional for me this issue. Again I took umbrage not against the person in question, but the Facebook, Twitter, dynamic that causes so much misinformation, and viral misinformation, in present day. People (not saying you) really have to understand these mediums and their limitations and not using them for things like devining political opinion on complex issues for which they are pooly suited.

Thomas Hinderks
19-01-2013, 05:41 PM
Replacement

I would first have to have some idea of exactly what you are taking issue with as far as my "tactics". I really don't comprehend.

I really don't want to go into specifics as that could easily be taken as derogatory, which is what I am trying very hard not to be or do. It is also why I asked the question I did as after reading and re reading the thread it seems to me to be key to conversation and approaches and would have added to my understanding.

All that said, as I depart this part of the conversation I will say both yourself and EDP may want to re read the thread and re evaluate your approach as rather than educate, enlighten or build allies it's my opinion you are actually turning many on the thread against both yourselves and making them more rigid in their stands.

That's my read of things...

In my highly biased personal opinion

Gemini
19-01-2013, 08:44 PM
^Might be a good time to direct a couple of people to this site:

http://www.knowitall-tv.com/

Replacement
19-01-2013, 10:10 PM
Replacement

I would first have to have some idea of exactly what you are taking issue with as far as my "tactics". I really don't comprehend.

I really don't want to go into specifics as that could easily be taken as derogatory, which is what I am trying very hard not to be or do. It is also why I asked the question I did as after reading and re reading the thread it seems to me to be key to conversation and approaches and would have added to my understanding.

All that said, as I depart this part of the conversation I will say both yourself and EDP may want to re read the thread and re evaluate your approach as rather than educate, enlighten or build allies it's my opinion you are actually turning many on the thread against both yourselves and making them more rigid in their stands.

That's my read of things...

In my highly biased personal opinion


I don't think you've been in this and other threads on the topic enough to see some of the posts that EDP and myself might be reacting to, posts that have been deleted, posts that said the driver in the pickup should have run over the natives instead of stopping. (One post so embarrassing it actually made the TV news.)

Another post deleted stating that the poster would go defecate and **** all over the River Cree as a result of the Idle no more protest.

ARe you paying any attention to those and other deleted offensive posts on the topic? But your singling me out for MY behavior on the topic? Thats incredibly specious reasoning considering.

If I've been unreasonable to some of the replies its because some of the most deplorable behavior I've ever witnessed here has been around this topic over the last few days.

Yet EDP and Me are the ones being unpleasant in your opinion?

C'mon.

Admin
19-01-2013, 10:20 PM
Replacement, please see post #15. It is still there. I left it up as it was suitably challenged and rebuked. Plus, I do not delete posts. All posts that are archived are still very much visible to me and the moderators. I keep them because I need the audit trail.

I did archive the truck post though. I was unaware it made the news? Please send me a PM of when and what station.

Replacement
19-01-2013, 10:26 PM
Replacement, please see post #15. It is still there. I left it up as it was suitably challenged and rebuked. Plus, I do not delete posts. All posts that are archived are still very much visible to me and the moderators. I keep them because I need the audit trail.

I did archive the truck post though. I was unaware it made the news? Please send me a PM of when and what station.
I'll just say it right in the thread. I believe it was Global, the wife was watching it. I only heard it from the other room but they referenced it in the news telecast yesterday evening.

Really unfortunate people have to go to such extreme viewpoints. Makes the whole board look bad.

Admin
19-01-2013, 10:27 PM
Thank you.

Admin
19-01-2013, 10:34 PM
Really unfortunate people have to go to such extreme viewpoints. Makes the whole board look bad.

May I correct this a bit? It makes the poster look how the poster looks. If there is enough balance and self policing by the other posters, then the board looks like people disagreeing. If it is really over the top, then I unapprove.

This is why I want more diverse posters on this board. We need more opinions on all sides or else the board looks like a hive, and that is more unfortuante for C2E as a whole than one poster.

Sorry for the thread derail folks.

Gemini
19-01-2013, 10:50 PM
Replacement, please see post #15. It is still there. I left it up as it was suitably challenged and rebuked. Plus, I do not delete posts. All posts that are archived are still very much visible to me and the moderators. I keep them because I need the audit trail.

I did archive the truck post though. I was unaware it made the news? Please send me a PM of when and what station.
I'll just say it right in the thread. I believe it was Global, the wife was watching it. I only heard it from the other room but they referenced it in the news telecast yesterday evening.

Really unfortunate people have to go to such extreme viewpoints. Makes the whole board look bad.
I think the biggest problem with your posting style is you come across as being 'dismissive' of other people who post but, if someone does agree with you you fawn over them. You also come across as the type of person who thinks you are the only one who knows what you are talking about (well, you and EDP). Your post don't come across as preaching rather than educational. You drown out the message you want to send with flowery speeches and unnecessary diatribe. Or as my grandad would say 'diarrhea of the mouth'. It's not that we don't want to hear your opinion we just wish it was in shorter sentences and less of it. Don't speak down to us, we are not your minions.
Talk to us like we are individuals with our own point of views, or own frustrations with the this process. The world has more colours in it than just your black and white perspective. Try not to pontificate and act a bit more humble.
Now that I have told you the good news please try to reflect on what I have said.

Replacement
19-01-2013, 11:35 PM
Replacement, please see post #15. It is still there. I left it up as it was suitably challenged and rebuked. Plus, I do not delete posts. All posts that are archived are still very much visible to me and the moderators. I keep them because I need the audit trail.

I did archive the truck post though. I was unaware it made the news? Please send me a PM of when and what station.
I'll just say it right in the thread. I believe it was Global, the wife was watching it. I only heard it from the other room but they referenced it in the news telecast yesterday evening.

Really unfortunate people have to go to such extreme viewpoints. Makes the whole board look bad.

I think you need to have an attitude adjustment in regards to your posting style. You seem to have an uncanny ability to think you are the only one who knows what you are talking about. We are not your minions. We don't need preached to. If you do not like a persons opinion your 'dismissive' attitude does not serve you well. You are not the resident expert on everything, not even close. Please remember this. Your point gets lost when you have, as my granddad would say 'diarrhea of the mouth'. We are not children, don't speak down to us. Don't dismiss grown men's/women's opinions just because they are not your own. Don't fawn over people when they agree with you and don't dump on people who don't. The world is not black and white the way you perceive it. The world is full of different opinions. Get of your high horse, we are all not waiting with baited breath to hear what you have to say next.
Now that I have told you the good news maybe we can continue this debate with maybe you being a little less haughty and a bit more humble.
Is there an ignore function on this board? Because I'll use it.

Congrats.

You win the irony award.

Gemini
20-01-2013, 12:07 AM
^Oh Geez, you quoted the thread I just deleted. I thought somehow I had deleted the first post so I wrote another. While I was writing the post again the first one must of being getting looked over by the mod. They both ended up getting posted so I deleted one. Did'nt want it to seem like I was ripping you two new ones. Just wanted to make this clear for anyone who reads my post and my post in your quoted piece.
The irony indeed.

Thomas Hinderks
20-01-2013, 08:51 AM
Replacement

Yet EDP and Me are the ones being unpleasant in your opinion?No I said, I thought clearly

I will say both yourself and EDP may want to re read the thread and re evaluate your approach as rather than educate, enlighten or build allies it's my opinion you are actually turning many on the thread against both yourselves and making them more rigid in their stands.Yes I have read all the posts and the ones like those you mentioned frankly police themselves...the poster has made themselves look, shall we say small.

I think I understand the passion you are putting forward, the frustration and the information and opinion you are putting forward (not that I agree to all of it). What I have suggested is your message is not getting across because of the methodology used.

As I said

I really don't want to go into specifics as that could easily be taken as derogatory, which is what I am trying very hard not to be or do.In my highly biased personal opinion.

Admin here's the truck link from CBC
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2013/01/16/edmonton-idle-no-more-day-of-action.html

In my highly biased personal opinion

Replacement
20-01-2013, 09:58 AM
Replacement

Yet EDP and Me are the ones being unpleasant in your opinion?No I said, I thought clearly

I will say both yourself and EDP may want to re read the thread and re evaluate your approach as rather than educate, enlighten or build allies it's my opinion you are actually turning many on the thread against both yourselves and making them more rigid in their stands.Yes I have read all the posts and the ones like those you mentioned frankly police themselves...the poster has made themselves look, shall we say small.

I think I understand the passion you are putting forward, the frustration and the information and opinion you are putting forward (not that I agree to all of it). What I have suggested is your message is not getting across because of the methodology used.

As I said

I really don't want to go into specifics as that could easily be taken as derogatory, which is what I am trying very hard not to be or do.In my highly biased personal opinion.

Admin here's the truck link from CBC
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2013/01/16/edmonton-idle-no-more-day-of-action.html

In my highly biased personal opinion

I'll be clear here Thomas. If we were having coffee and discussing all this face to face there'd be little confusion in what either of us are stating. We would have interaction in real time, a chance to interject in real time, and get feedback in real time. We would know when each of us are smiling, nodding, being serious, being playful, and we would know whether there is a "tone" or attitude" being conveyed.

But we're communicating online and none of this is available to us and we sometimes all fill in pieces that either do, or do not exist. This being example of a communication medium being limited. But we both try to do the best with it that we can.

So I'll state it. I'm not attempting to have or interject an attitude in this discussion. I am very serious about this topic and thanks for acknowledging that. One person other than yourself felt impacted by something I wrote here and let me know it. I took the time to initiate apologizing to that poster in detail as I would with anybody approaching me somewhat reasonably (and of course you are and I thank you for that). ftr as well I wouldn't contain this publicly in the thread, ideally I'd PM this to you. (but cannot)

When I speak in detail in an area I have extensive background in some words, phrases, shop talk, and ways of describing can enter in. Like they would for virtually anybody engaging in a technical area.This isn't intended as arrogance, one upmanship, but simply to convey information. I don't know either what is wrong with my methodology.

If I don't somehow do this correctly its due to being human, having my own reactions, and also feeling attacked by others in the thread. Especially when I didn't initiate anything of the sort with others that are members of this board.

I've been "unpleasant", arguably, if you will, with respect to one person, who I don't know, who evidently doesn't post here, and who with I would properly substantiate my position if he did. I would also have conveyed my opinions much differently to respect a fellow poster if he was one. Perhaps people are not making this distinction, I do. Yet I've apoligized for the tact I took in that sidebar and with respect to those comments that were made by a DJ several times. So I'm feeling limited in what else I can do to effect detente here. ;)

I do feel I've been attacked in a recent post by another poster and with the person having intent to do that as their post certainly indicates. I state this because the post is specifically talking about my assumed attributes, character, what I'm presumedly like, etc, instead of actually being rebuttal or debate. In otherwords the post in question attacking the poster, instead of what is posted. I make a clear distinction in that.
In lieu of that I would seek an end to assumptions and statements that one or the other person here is being arrogant, having an attitude, etc. What you are likely seeing by now is some human frustration and reaction at what has been directed at me. Several times in the thread I'e specifically indicated its fine for there to be disagreement, Its Ok to agree to disagree (we can't agree on everything) so move on.

Finally,(although I doubt it) when such general terms are used they are more indicative of how others percieve something, not necessarily how they were meant, or intended. I'm fairly powerless to do much about that as hearing something like I'm communicating with an "attitude" is non specific and isn't something I can respond to or effect or change. Because I don't have the specific input to do that.

If I did have an attitude would I be going through this effort in resolution? If I didn't respect others opinion would I be respecting it in this detail;)

Sometimes it just needs to be simple (and something I'm rarely any good at)

I respect your opinion here Thomas, lets move on.

ps I've taken the liberty to make some slight changes to my earlier posts in the thread including omitting the name of the DJ which is superflous for our purposes here.

pps. In looking over the posts where I addressed frustration and even some anger is specifically with respect to the DJ rant. This is what I've detected. If I've been disrespectful to posters here in the thread or putting down contributors here in the thread I'm not seeing that. But I did look.

Thomas Hinderks
21-01-2013, 12:14 PM
Replacement

Appreciate your response and the changes you made, thank you.

I can appreciate the frustration and anger over misinformation etc. (ECCA debate anyone? lol). But to get the message across you need to build allies, which is what I was trying to get across.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Sonic Death Monkey
21-01-2013, 01:46 PM
There was an Idle No More thing at City Centre Mall at noon today. It was a much smaller group as what we've seen elsewhere, so I wonder if the movement is starting to peter out?

Gemini
21-01-2013, 04:18 PM
^I think it's going to be like Arnie with 'I'll be baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack'.
It's not on the front pages anymore but I don't think it's gone. More than likely re-grouping and trying to pull together more as so far it's been like herding cats.

Gemini
21-01-2013, 04:32 PM
Replacement

I would first have to have some idea of exactly what you are taking issue with as far as my "tactics". I really don't comprehend.

I really don't want to go into specifics as that could easily be taken as derogatory, which is what I am trying very hard not to be or do. It is also why I asked the question I did as after reading and re reading the thread it seems to me to be key to conversation and approaches and would have added to my understanding.

All that said, as I depart this part of the conversation I will say both yourself and EDP may want to re read the thread and re evaluate your approach as rather than educate, enlighten or build allies it's my opinion you are actually turning many on the thread against both yourselves and making them more rigid in their stands.
That's my read of things...

In my highly biased personal opinion


It's interesting to see you walk such a tight rope of restrain as to not say what you were actually thinking about such postings. I should imagine whatever you did say would be no where near the dismissive smack downs some of us have had to put up with listening to a couple of blowhards.
Im not really giving you a compliment Tom, it's just my highly biased personal opinion.

Thomas Hinderks
21-01-2013, 04:40 PM
Gemini

Im not really giving you a compliment Tom, it's just my highly biased personal opinion.

sorry for being off topic but that is the funniest thing I've seen all day...thanks

Gemini
21-01-2013, 05:04 PM
^Well now that I have got that of my chest I am glad there are going to be no lasting scars:wink:.

Kitlope
22-01-2013, 06:52 PM
Not to remind everyone or toot my own horn but it looks like I won the bet. In the other thread I mentioned 2 weeks ago that it's just a matter of time until the discrimination/racist card was going to be used and I said it would happen by the end of January.

Well, it looks like ol' Bob Layton is now a racist and I'm assuming, because I don't personally support inconveniencing taxpayers with roadblocks and an economy paying their way, I'm a racist too.




So, First Nations is now playing the “racist” card. The media is being accused of not getting the Idle No More message out there properly. Part of the problem, Idle No More, may be that we can’t hear what you’re saying, because your actions are too loud. Blocking a rail line near Sarnia. Interrupting the railroad’s right to commerce. Blocking the QE 2. Drivers detoured or delayed. First Nations wants us to stress that they intended a peaceful blockade, but the traveling public, some angered by the move, were largely not interested in the “peaceful” part, only in the blockade of the highway they paid taxes to build. I am being accused of racism on Twitter and on the phone. I am a racist because I don’t support inconveniencing others as a way of getting attention. I am a racist because I don’t completely agree that a hunger striker’s demands should be met. I do agree there should be an accounting of all First Nations funding. Racist. It’s been said many times that name-calling is the last refuge of those who have no logical argument. Is that true, or does blockading a highway help create racists? Let me know what you think.



http://www.630ched.com/Blogs/BobLaytonsBlog/Home.aspx

Gemini
22-01-2013, 06:59 PM
^Yup, the INM people have ran out of steam so now this is all they can come up with.
I should imagine Bob Layton is going to be the first of many to be called the 'r' word.
In the end the 'r' word will apply to 95% of the Canadain population if INM have their way.