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  • #16
    Originally posted by trmpt View Post
    Back to the stats, I am focused on simply Edmonton and what was given to us by the EPS. I of course will agree, there are more vehicles on the street but those who are noise offenders should be given the same fine as motorcycles. There are more and more trucks and cars that are modifying their vehicles and are as equally annoying.
    Where did the 13,000 motorcycle stat come from? How many passenger vehicles are in Edmonton? If it's more than 39,000 (which it is), that still means that motorcycles account for more than their share of the noise complaints.

    It's likely the vast majority of people don't complain to EPS about the vehicles that make a ton of noise, because it would be nearly impossible for them to do anything unless it's an ongoing issue (such as with a neighbour). I've never complained to EPS about the noise a bike makes, but I've written Ben Henderson about it, since he represents my ward.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    • #17
      To hop into this as devils advocate, I really admire people who have nothing better to do that whine ***** and complain about 2-5 second disruption of their peace & quiet by this "noise". Really now. Lets put on some big boy underpants.

      Really??? I for one welcome the summer and a loud rip of a motorcycle down whyte ave while im on the patio. A nice rumble in my stomach as it passes. I love it!!

      We are ticketing people for a brief loud noise? Thank goodness. Great use of police resources.

      I think this has more to do with people not liking motorcycles/motorcyclists than it has to do with "noise"
      youtube.com/BrothersGrim
      facebook.com/BrothersGrimMusic

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      • #18
        Gord - 13,000 is an approximate from last year of registered motorcycles in Edmonton. It has likely gone up but I have already agreed there are far more vehicles on the road. By your own statement though, most people likely don't phone in complaints so we will never know what the true number is of complainers. I only have what EPS has given me.

        Could you answer me a couple questions since I have been so kind to answer yours.

        Do you feel that all noise offenders should be fined regardless of mode of transportation?

        Do you feel that laws, not just this one, should be equally applied without discrimination?

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        • #19
          I think the posters here are missing the entire point that "trmpt" is putting forward. Her argument is not that loud bikes are OK. Her point is that the bylaw is discriminatory in its application. Discrimination is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The argument is that simple. If bikes or cars or trucks are excessively loud they should be fined. The fine for a bike that is loud is $250.00. The fine for any other vehicle that is excessively loud is $115.00. That is not a fair or equal application of law. What part of that do you not comprehend?

          I would also add that the reason the statistics are so high for motorcycles as compared to other vehicles is that the EPS specifically targets motorcycles. EPS does not specifically target any other vehicles in enforcing the noise bylaw. That would explain the higher percentage of motorcycles compared to cars that are charged based on numbers.

          I believe that if the law was applied equally and fairly to all vehicles, this discussion would not be taking place

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          • #20
            Yes, and yes. The problem that's faced right now is that there's no current standard to measure noise of the various other vehicles. Bikes, because of how they're built, have exhaust that comes out of one place. Measuring a car, a dual exhaust truck, and a big rig need different measurements, because their "noise makers" are at different places. That's the problem as I understand it.

            Komrade, it's about the noise for me, and if there was a measurement for all other vehicles then I'd support that as well. Why should my conversation be interrupted by an inconsiderate jerk who wants all eyes to be on him (or her, though it's almost always a guy)? Why should my sleep be disturbed because someone wants to make a ton of noise? Why should I have to spend 5 minutes calming my son down because someone blasted by us making enough noise to scare him? These vehicles are modified (either through stereos, or pipes) to make a lot of noise for the enjoyment of the owners, and at the detriment of everyone else. That's what I have a problem with.

            We live in a city, and we should be considerate to our neighbours.
            They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by trmpt View Post
              Edmonton PRT, we don't disagree that excessively loud bikes should be punished, however you failed to see the issue we see. You claim that only a small percentage of vehicles are excessively loud. How does that explain passenger vehicles netting 3 times as many noise complaints than motorcycles? Stats are stats and ours came directly from the EPS.

              As for Harley trademarking the sound of their exhaust, that is a mute point as any stock Harley that comes with that trademarked sound, passes the bylaw.

              If you have seen what we have seen for the past couple years, you might understand better. It is a law that holds one group of people to a different standard. That is an infringement on equality rights.

              So although noise is an issue, there are bigger issues with this law once you see it for what it is. Unfortunately most people won't understand until something similar happens to them. We are trying to set a precedence that discrimination is not acceptable, especially when there is a viable solution that addresses the discrimination factor.

              Take the recent reversal of dog breed bans. The city stated it was unfair to discriminate against an entire breed because the breed MAY have a bad reputation. This motorcycle only noise bylaw is essentially the same thing. The clear majority of the 13,000 registered motorcyclists are law abiding citizens. It truly is a small percentage that deserve to be fined and not one person disagrees with that. Unfortunately that isn't what is happening. Thousands of innocent people are determined to be guilty over and over before being proven innocent over and over. These people are detained between 30 - 60 minutes every time.

              So please refrain from lumping all riders into one category because every group has their small percentage of bad apples.
              As a bike owner.. I get it...

              Loud motorcycles have become the sacrificial lamb... To be honest I encounter more loud obnoxious trucks than bikes.

              If your going to go after noise pollution... it should be done across the board.
              "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KOxamitny View Post
                I would also add that the reason the statistics are so high for motorcycles as compared to other vehicles is that the EPS specifically targets motorcycles. EPS does not specifically target any other vehicles in enforcing the noise bylaw. That would explain the higher percentage of motorcycles compared to cars that are charged based on numbers.
                Sorry KOxamitny, we've been looking at complaints, not tickets (which EPS has no control over):

                2010 - this was the year the bylaw was enacted. A total of 28 complaints were called in with again, only 8 specific to what the complainant believed to be a motorcycle, the remaining 20 were for vehicles. 71% of the complaints were not motorcycle related.
                That means 29% of the complaints WERE motorcycle related, despite making up 3.9% of the vehicles. Do you see the issue?

                Even using the 2009 stats (245 issued by bylaw, with 107 for motorcycles), you see motorcycles accounted for 43.7% of the tickets. That's what caused this in the first place.
                Last edited by Gord Lacey; 24-04-2013, 11:46 AM.
                They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Actually, the technology does exist to measure the pressure waves from vehicle exhaust. As an example, Britain tests all vehicles on a yearly basis as part of their licensing rules. They apply a standardized test, using the exact same equipment EPS is using. Noise is noise when it is coming out of a tailpipe. The other error in your statement is that many motorcycles have duel exhaust systems similar to some cars or trucks but the testing is considered accurate on them. Therefore, that argument is without merit.

                  To address your final paragraph, you should not have to put up with that jerk on his bike, or Honda with the fart tube, or the Dodge pickup with the modified diesel. The argument here is not about that. What you are basically saying is that your right to peace and quiet overrides the right to be treated equally and fairly under the law. Sorry, but our laws don't work like that. Fortunately, we live in a country where we are all protected by a Charter of Rights.

                  I agree that we need to be considerate in our actions, but that is something that you cannot legislate. Speaking of consideration, my name is not "komrade".

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    So aside from the "noise" issue you seem hung up on, what part of discrimination do you not understand?

                    Are you saying that discrimination is OK?

                    Nobody, including myself, has stated that noise is an acceptable thing be it from bikes, cars or what have you. So what is your argument? You appear to be arguing that discrimination is OK. Is that your position? I think you should read section 15 of the the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. You cannot argue that. It is what it is. What "trmpt" is saying is that the bylaw does not follow the spirit of that section.

                    As a citizen of Canada, you should be outraged that the City of Edmonton is blatantly ignoring the rights of a specific segment of society, and treating them differently under the law.

                    If the public does not stand up for their rights, and they are our rights, then we will surely lose them. That is what this issue is about. To reiterate, this is not about the noise!

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                    • #25
                      I think we should go back to vehicle inspections of all types like we had in the 70's.

                      Annually for commercial vehicles
                      Every 3 or 4 years for other vehicles including motorcycles
                      All vehicles when registered in the province (other than brand new)
                      All used vehicle sales including private sales
                      Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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                      • #26
                        I agree 100%. I would even go further and have all licensing for drivers revert back to provincial control. Too many people getting licences from shady and suspect private agencies that are open to "influence".

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KOxamitny View Post
                          Speaking of consideration, my name is not "komrade".
                          Umm... no... it's not. Komrade is the person I was responding to in the thread.
                          They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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                          • #28
                            Sorry for the mistake and thanks for clarifying.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gord Lacey View Post
                              Yes, and yes. The problem that's faced right now is that there's no current standard to measure noise of the various other vehicles. Bikes, because of how they're built, have exhaust that comes out of one place. Measuring a car, a dual exhaust truck, and a big rig need different measurements, because their "noise makers" are at different places. That's the problem as I understand it.
                              As I have stated several times already, there is a solution to target all forms of excessive vehicle noise. The City of Calgary has implemented it and the City of Saskatoon is now looking at it.

                              It should be noted that in 2011 the City of Saskatoon voted down a motorcycle only noise bylaw because it demonstrated discrimination by targeting one group of people.

                              As for answering yes to both my questions, you do in fact understand where the issue is with this law. It has nothing to do with noise. We all agree there is a noise issue but it doesn't give the right to government on any level to ignore the Charter and enact laws that demonstrate blatant discrimination.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                ^ Which is fair!
                                "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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