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  • M.O.D.E.L. Edmonton

    On June 9, 2010, the City of Edmonton enacted a discriminatory noise bylaw targeting one demographic of citizens, motorcycle owners. Despite the fact that statistics prove excessive noise from motorcycles specifically is actually the minority of complaints regarding excessive vehicle noise, they pushed forward. There is a solution that can expand the bylaw to include all forms of vehicles, but most of City Council continues to ignore. If noise was truly the issue, one would think Mandel and company would be receptive to a better solution. This solution also does not require up to 40 traffic officers pulled from dealing with real traffic issues to chase motorcycles. This solution is also a better use of tax dollars. Finally, this solution was invented by one of Edmonton's own engineers. Calgary has already done all the due dillegnece of testing the Noise Snare, meaning it could simply be implemented and enforced by bylaw like bylaws are meant to be enforced.

    It needs to be noted the issue with the bylaw has nothing to do with noise. We all agree there is an issues with excessive noise from all types of vehicles whether it be exhaust, stereos, etc on trucks, cars, motorcycles, etc. With that said, allowing City Hall to disregard the Charter, specifically equality, legal and mobility rights, is a slippery slope we should not allow them to go down.

    For more information, please visit www.modeledmonton.com.

  • #2
    It is interesting how you portray yourself as a victim. How do think the people feel who have to put up with the noise? The issue is noise not motorcycles or the people who ride them.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    • #3
      I agree the noise bylaw should be applying to a wider range of noise emitters.

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      • #4
        Glenco, I understand this is a hard concept to grasp. First, I never said noise wasn't an issue. I was very clear that our issue is not with the noise, but how this law discriminates.

        Second, are you aware:

        1. that the Provincial Traffic Safety Act was being efficiently used in prior years per the statistics provided by the EPS? The new bylaw netted a whole 8 more tickets but profiled a bunch of innocent riders who were detained simply because they ride a motorcycle. There was no other reason to pull them in.

        2. that there are two sets of fine levels for the exact same infraction holding one group to a more severe penalty than the rest? The fines should be equal.

        3. that the majority of the tickets that have been put through the court system have been thrown out, dismissed or withdrawn? Effective use of tax dollars when you add it all together.

        4. that the amount of complaints filed regarding excessive noise center more on passenger vehicles (3 times more) than motorcycles per the statistics provided by the EPS?

        5. that the Charter of Rights clearly states that we all have the right to be held to and protected by the same laws EQUALLY without discrimination?

        There are two solutions that make this law fair; one is to revert back to the existing provincial law that will also alleviate the issue of ultra vires in the two laws, or expand under the City of Edmonton bylaw using the Noise Snare which in essence deals with noise and not the source of it.

        If noise was truly the issue, the law would be fairly applied to all. Anything less is discrimination.

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        • #5
          ^Is this guy for real?

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          • #6
            I loathe loud motorcycles and the really loud ones are purposely modified and should be fined. This goes for any vehicle but it seems as motorcycles are by far the worst offenders, not looking forward to hearing them now that spring is coming.

            Maybe Diotte can raise this issue up in council for you?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by trmpt View Post
              Glenco, I understand this is a hard concept to grasp. First, I never said noise wasn't an issue. I was very clear that our issue is not with the noise, but how this law discriminates.

              But NOISE IS THE ISSUE!

              This issue has brought the law upon themselves. Yes, there are loud cars but that may be 1% or 2% of the cars on the road. Trucks can be loud too but again it is a small percentage of the number. Vehicle stereos can reverberate through communities.

              Most motorcycles are designed to be loud or are modified to be loud, either low rumbling or high revving engines. Some riders take perverse pleasure in waking up the neighbourhood. Some riders actually deliberately terrorize neighbourhoods with their bikes and noise. Name me one auto manufacturer who tried to trademark the sound of their engine? Harley-Davidson actually filed an application for a sound trademark.

              Motorcyclists make themselves an easy and identifiable target of the collective wrath of quiet neighbourhoods and the growing stress of big city coexistence.

              Roosevelt stated "speak softly, and carry a big stick."

              Many motorcyclists do the exact opposite.
              Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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              • #8
                Edmonton PRT, we don't disagree that excessively loud bikes should be punished, however you failed to see the issue we see. You claim that only a small percentage of vehicles are excessively loud. How does that explain passenger vehicles netting 3 times as many noise complaints than motorcycles? Stats are stats and ours came directly from the EPS.

                As for Harley trademarking the sound of their exhaust, that is a mute point as any stock Harley that comes with that trademarked sound, passes the bylaw.

                If you have seen what we have seen for the past couple years, you might understand better. It is a law that holds one group of people to a different standard. That is an infringement on equality rights.

                So although noise is an issue, there are bigger issues with this law once you see it for what it is. Unfortunately most people won't understand until something similar happens to them. We are trying to set a precedence that discrimination is not acceptable, especially when there is a viable solution that addresses the discrimination factor.

                Take the recent reversal of dog breed bans. The city stated it was unfair to discriminate against an entire breed because the breed MAY have a bad reputation. This motorcycle only noise bylaw is essentially the same thing. The clear majority of the 13,000 registered motorcyclists are law abiding citizens. It truly is a small percentage that deserve to be fined and not one person disagrees with that. Unfortunately that isn't what is happening. Thousands of innocent people are determined to be guilty over and over before being proven innocent over and over. These people are detained between 30 - 60 minutes every time.

                So please refrain from lumping all riders into one category because every group has their small percentage of bad apples.

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                • #9
                  Where were all the bikers when this issue was brought forward to the group that then reported to council? Nowhere. Not a single person showed up to defend the loud bikes.

                  Also, you're aware that the Motorcycle and Moped Industry Council was involved in drafting this bylaw, correct? They don't represent bikers?

                  Instead of whining about being unfairly targeted, you should be going after the bad apples that spoil it for you all. Go after the guy that puts on aftermarket "noise-makers" that wake up a neighbourhood at 2 am, or the guy that sets off car alarms when he opens it up after a red light. Just yesterday I had to calm my crying son after a bike ripped past us in a small parking lot, making a ton of noise. If 17% of the bikes fail (100% of which were modified), that means there are 2,210 noise-makers driving around the streets of Edmonton (the 17% came from a report used for drafting the bylaw).

                  Look at your own stats. You say there are 3 times more complaints about noise coming from passenger vehicles compared to motorcycles, right? Let's use the 2009 data provided by Stats Canada to take a closer look (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...ade14c-eng.htm).

                  There were 2,605,008 vehicles under 500 kilograms (passenger vehicles), and 102,778 motorcycles AND mopeds (which means they likely include scooters in there as well). That's a 25:1 ratio of passenger vehicles to bikes, even including the mopeds and scooters to raise the number of classified motorcycles, yet the complaints are 3:1. Now, can you honestly tell us that bikers are being unfairly targeted based on those numbers?
                  They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gord Lacey View Post
                    Look at your own stats. You say there are 3 times more complaints about noise coming from passenger vehicles compared to motorcycles, right? Let's use the 2009 data provided by Stats Canada to take a closer look (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...ade14c-eng.htm).

                    There were 2,605,008 vehicles under 500 kilograms (passenger vehicles), and 102,778 motorcycles AND mopeds (which means they likely include scooters in there as well). That's a 25:1 ratio of passenger vehicles to bikes, even including the mopeds and scooters to raise the number of classified motorcycles, yet the complaints are 3:1. Now, can you honestly tell us that bikers are being unfairly targeted based on those numbers?
                    Thanks Gord for the stats. You saved me time looking for them. From the stats, motorcycles are responsible for 8 times more noise complaints/registered vehicles. Moreover, since those motorcycles are on the road for usually 6 months and are driven less kilometers each year than the average vehicle, the complaints/vehicle/kilometer-driven is many times higher. As Glenco stated, M.O.D.E.L. members are portraying themselves as victims when certain members are the problem. Maybe M.O.D.E.L. members should police their members and test their own bikes. If member bikes would all conform, they could design a sticker to apply to their bikes or wallet card that they could show police.
                    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 24-04-2013, 06:12 AM.
                    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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                    • #11
                      Gord - this law was put through somewhat under the table. There was no knowledge of it until the day it went to a vote. We had people there, they were not given their due process by being allowed to speak.

                      The MMIC is responsible for funding the J2825 and pushing this initiative across the country. They DO NOT represent the motorcyclists. There is a full page on our website that is dedicated to the MMIC and the MCC, who they represent and what they do.

                      Part of our mandate is to educate within the motorcycle community about their responsibilities to society at large. We do attempt to police our own in this as well because they are simply ruining riding for the vast majority. Again, this is information on our website under the About Us tab.

                      My stats are based on Edmonton only, which is who enacted this law. I am not concerned with Canada wide stats as it is not a federal law, it is a municipal law so in the interest of fair information, we have kept the statistics to within city borders provided by the EPS. The stats within the city itself prove that City Council moved hastily targeting only the group with the lesser amount of complaints. Again, that information is on our website under stats.

                      Edmonton PRT - We are not portraying ourselves as victims. We are asking to have equal laws applied to all violators. What is so hard to understand about that concept? There are plenty of vehicles that are just as loud, some louder. For example, when Calgary was running their free testing using the Noise Snare, the officer in charge down there listed motorcycles 4th on the list of offending vehicles and the majority that showed up to get tested were motorcycles. The winner of the most offending vehicle was a "rig rocket". Do you not think that all noise violators should be held to the same standard?

                      We presented the idea of identifiers that state that someone has passed the test and it was shot down. The idea of throwing how long bikes are on the roads as compared to other vehicles then comparing that to complaints is an interesting approach. We would then have to also add in the factors such as windows being closed, people not being outdoors and therefore not necessarily hearing everyone they would on a day where windows are open and people are trying to enjoy being outside. It's all relative.

                      On our website we have a video taken from last summer demonstrating that EPS are still unable to perform this test 3 years in. The officer in the video was partnered with the EPS "expert" from day one so he should know what he is doing. The more interesting part of this video is the person who is shooting it is the man's wife. Her bike is in fact louder than his but they only wanted to test his. Would you not think they would at the very least test both?

                      There is far more to this issue than those who are not educated in the matter understand. We have presented all the background information, statistics involved, researched why the test doesn't work, presented information on various factions involved, etc. Bottom line is, we all want the same thing, a noise bylaw. We just are asking for one that is fairly applied to all per the Charter of Rights & Freedoms. Again, there is a solution to do so and we would like to see it implemented.

                      Thank you all for your feedback. We hope that you can open your mind just a little to see where we are coming from as we certainly do see where you all are coming from. We do understand there is an issue. Mostly, I would like to thank you for bring attention to this thread as it is getting views, our website hits are up and therefore awareness is being spread.

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                      • #12
                        We? Our? So multiple people are using the account? I'm pretty sure that's a violation of the tos of this stie.
                        Last edited by Magnoblade; 24-04-2013, 09:16 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by darkmagnoblade View Post
                          We? Our? So multiple people are using the account? I'm pretty sure that's a violation of the tos of this stie.
                          It's incredibly obvious when he uses the pronoun "we", he is referring to the group that is listed in the title of the thread. Grow up.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by trmpt View Post
                            Gord - this law was put through somewhat under the table. There was no knowledge of it until the day it went to a vote. We had people there, they were not given their due process by being allowed to speak.
                            Huh, it's weird that tons of others knew when and where to show up to speak. As for not being given their due process, every meeting I've been to allows people to sign up and speak at the beginning of the session, or by calling the City Clerk office.

                            Originally posted by trmpt View Post
                            My stats are based on Edmonton only, which is who enacted this law. I am not concerned with Canada wide stats as it is not a federal law, it is a municipal law so in the interest of fair information, we have kept the statistics to within city borders provided by the EPS. The stats within the city itself prove that City Council moved hastily targeting only the group with the lesser amount of complaints. Again, that information is on our website under stats.
                            While you say "lesser amount of complaints," I provided you with data that shows the number of passenger vehicles to motorcycles at a 25:1 ratio, yet the complaints are only 3:1. That means that there's a far number of complaints per motorcycle compared to complaints against passenger vehicles. Obviously there will be more complaints filed against a type of vehicle that far outnumbers another. You're not properly reporting or examining the stats. The stats I gave don't apply to all of Canada, they're simply collected by Stats Canada. I only referred to the Alberta stats to calculate the ratios.

                            And please don't think I hate motorcycles, because I don't (my mom and her husband had two and enjoyed them), I just hate people that feel it's their right to annoy others. Unfortunately for motorcycle owners, a far greater number of owners modify their bikes to be loud, obnoxious machines.

                            Originally posted by darkmagnoblade
                            We? Our? So multiple people are using account? I'm pretty sure that's a violation of the tos of this stie.
                            I don't think multiple people are using the account, they're just saying "we" because the poster is representing a group, as opposed to an individual.
                            Last edited by Gord Lacey; 24-04-2013, 09:33 AM.
                            They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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                            • #15
                              Gord - I assure you, we had people there and they were told they couldn't speak. Neither here nor there as that is in the past and nothing can be done about it now.

                              Back to the stats, I am focused on simply Edmonton and what was given to us by the EPS. I of course will agree, there are more vehicles on the street but those who are noise offenders should be given the same fine as motorcycles. There are more and more trucks and cars that are modifying their vehicles and are as equally annoying.

                              I don't think you hate motorcycles, I think that you are engaged in a healthy discussion about an issue that affects a community in our city. Nothing wrong with that as you are entitled to your opinion. I completely agree with you about the minority who modify just to be loud and obnoxious. I find them to be an embarrassment to the community and trust me, I state that to them very clearly each time. I am pretty up front as a 5'6" female going at these guys and for the record, I refuse to help them beat their noise violation ticket in court when I feel they deserve it. We know in our community who the gross offenders are.

                              With that said, there are a ton of motorcycles that are modified yet ridden respectfully in the city. I for one have after market exhaust on my bike but I still pass the test. So not all mods are bad mods. It also depends on how hard and fast you twist the throttle (your mom and her husband could attest to that). I am not a fan of those who sit at red lights on busy streets cranking their throttle to get attention. Again, it is an embarrassment to our community.

                              All we are asking for is that noise is treated as noise and the law be equally applied to all regardless of type of transportation and including the heavy base stereos, etc. When there is a solution to make that happen, what is the harm in investigating it further?

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