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  • Bought a new truck recently. It has the Michelin Primacy M+S tires. I am wondering if a studded winter tire is worth it from Nov-Mar.

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    • Originally posted by alkeli View Post
      Originally posted by Replacement View Post
      Originally posted by RichardS View Post
      Originally posted by Replacement View Post
      Originally posted by RichardS View Post
      I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

      As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
      One thing is that the average walking speed is around 5km/hr. Not sure where you get 1-3 from. Even in mountain terrain hiking I do up to 5km hr, faster on standard sidewalks. But again bipeds plant with one small foot at any given time. A very minute portion on road surface. Conversely in winter I deflate tires slightly. You got 4 tires on road surface at any given time and easily as much as 10 times the rubber to surface contact. Plus you got far superior tread even on All seasons than you have walking. Basically any all season made does far better on icy inclines than any boot would. Next the vector force of the vehicle is down and forward. You easily impact how much vector force by simply driving a little slower when necessary thus drastically impacting stopping distance. When walking it doesn't matter. ANY speed of walking can result in falls if the conditions are absolutely slippery. Because again sidewalks often have no applicant applied and are often not maintained at all. City roads are.

      (…)
      You quibble about the average pedestrian taking care on icy sidewalks, simply sauntering on a summer's day (1-3 km/h) and then ignore the obvious momentum differences between Joe Schmuckatoli and the average Buick?

      I get it. You don't want to equip yourself with the best tools when you drive. Neither do far too many others. I'll take my approach any day - get the right tool, and the best tool you can afford, for the job. All seasons/3 seasons need not apply for my winter vehicles. Never. I've said this many times in this thread and others...one set of Blizzaks in my old RWD 1/2 ton, and I was cured of this "all seasons are just as good" malarkey.
      Like I say I had two rentals with Winter tires and barely noticed a difference. many people support similar experience. I actually found the winter tires somewhat clumsy, they handled differently, not appreciably better, I actually found the driving experience somewhat worse.

      But again for something that you're indicating should be considered a necessity most Rental firms don't even have equipped winter tires as an option.


      In anycase the biggest cause of accidents and fatal accidents are things like inattentive driving, speeding, driving intoxicated, driving recklessly and interestingly theres more driving fatalities in summer months than any other time of year. By an often large margin.
      You can't compare how a rental car drove unless it was identical to the car you drive now, and you know 100% for sure that the winter tires were in decent condition.

      In the end, it's your car, your choice, and it's perfectly legal. But the whole point in people objecting is to be sure you are aware that you're knowingly driving with tires that are less capable on snow and ice. That fact can't be argued. After that, it's all up to you to live with your choice and any consequences involved.

      You mentioned calling in sick when the roads are bad, which just enforces your acknowledgement that your all-seasons aren't sufficient in bad conditions. I've never called in sick because of road conditions and I've had no problems getting to where I need to go by driving according to the conditions. I'm very well able to stay in control and not worry about ending up in a ditch.

      As I said, in the end, it's your decision, but I'm still 100% for making winter tires mandatory.
      To be clear I don't call in sick doubting my own driving. I would get to where I'm going, and back, fine and have in the worst conditions. I simply wish to avoid such days as where there are say 400 accidents. My concern being more that people will rear end me than anything else. That and a 3hr round trip commute instead of say a normal 50mins. Its simply not efficient to work on the very few days (1-3 per season) when the roads are exceedingly bad. I get paid for writing reports as well and do that at home on snow days. These end up being catch up days to get paperwork completed.

      So anyway, I'll ask again. Wht are peoples recommendations for Winter tires. Any dealerships that have the best winter tires that I can take a vehicle for a test drive? Its interesting and I'm willing to give it another try. The only reason I've tried these at all is convos like this. At least I'm making an effort.

      The difference should be remarkable, one would think, from the way Winter tires are hyped. But I hardly notice anything but that the handling is clumsier. Not as smooth a drive and cornering as with all seasons.
      Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018, 10:17 AM.
      "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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      • Just don't drive in the winter so you don't have to worry about them either way, that's what I do.


        Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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        • Originally posted by IanO View Post
          Just don't drive in the winter so you don't have to worry about them either way, that's what I do.
          Soon as LRT gets here I'm on it, and will stop driving any of the time. Just done with the costs and expenses of it overall. Not that I can't afford it. I just can't rationalize the disposable concept of todays vehicles and product overkill.

          Whats the estimates now on all in average costs of driving/yr. Must be something like 8-10K now.


          Not really complaining either. Its a positive development. I actually feel that gas prices should just keep shooting up. people shouldn't be as inclined as they are to driving and air travel. It should be prohibitively expensive. Its the only way to reduce these carbon footprints and dependency. Wrong thread I realize...
          Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018, 11:25 AM.
          "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nobleea View Post
            Bought a new truck recently. It has the Michelin Primacy M+S tires. I am wondering if a studded winter tire is worth it from Nov-Mar.
            I don't find studded are necessary since we don't get much glare ice in the city. This of course is all depending on your experiences where you drive. The downside of studs are they actually reduce traction on pavement since the studs subtract from your rubber-on-road footprint. They also offer no benefit in snow. Stating that, if the driving you do involves driving on sheet or chunky ice very often, then I would recommend studded. Otherwise you'll do fine with studless, and as I also drive a truck, I can say that winter tires make a big difference being RWD and light in the rear, even though I do have 4x4 and use it often. See below this post for recommendations.

            Originally posted by Replacement View Post
            So anyway, I'll ask again. Wht are peoples recommendations for Winter tires. Any dealerships that have the best winter tires that I can take a vehicle for a test drive? Its interesting and I'm willing to give it another try. The only reason I've tried these at all is convos like this. At least I'm making an effort.

            The difference should be remarkable, one would think, from the way Winter tires are hyped. But I hardly notice anything but that the handling is clumsier. Not as smooth a drive and cornering as with all seasons.
            My #1 recommendation is BFGoodrich Winter Slalom KSI, which I currently use, and will use again for my next set. Others that are really great and not too expensive are Hankook I-Pikes which are suddable if you require it. The best budget tires I've ever used are MultiMile Arctic Claws available at Kal Tire and sometimes Canadian Tire and can also be found under rebranded names. If money is no object, then the Nokian brand is the top winter tire. However, they are only slightly better in reviews and testing, but the price difference is huge. I'd also recommend Continental WinterContact.

            These recommendations are all tires that I've personally used and would buy again. Some brands I wouldn't go back to because they were not as good as the ones listed above. Michelin and Goodyear are two brands where I found their winter tires to be inferior to others I've tried.

            The reason for the cornering being different is the softer compound of the rubber. The tread will flex more on turns when it's warmer out, but it still has much better grip on the surface. I find the drive itself to be smoother because of this, but cornering does feel different on dry pavement which is again a result of softer compounds that won't harden in the cold. When it is cold, the rubber doesn't flex as much, but it still remains more flexible than all-season and summer tires.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kcantor View Post
              ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^

              just drive into the curb or a windrow? you'll only screw up your alignment. and maybe a body panel or three.

              spending how much to avoid the nominal cost of snow tires?

              all the studies and statistics indicate the real benefit of snow tires to the general population in the same way as vaccination does for polio. even those who would not have contracted the disease benefit.

              you counter the overall need and benefit by insisting that your own experience - a sample size of one - and apocryphal storytelling is proof that all the studies and statistics are wrong.

              if anyone else did that on any other topic from sports to drug addiction and harm reduction, you would be all over them like an anvil on the blacksmith’s shop floor.
              Kcantor, you get the twofer deal today. I'm going to try to answer this better today. You're correct. I believe in harm reduction. But I believe in things that significantly impact harm reduction. I specifically brought up a comparison in the thread, that people often don't wear adequate footwear, city doesn't tend sidewalks, homeowners often don't, So that there is literally negligible harm reduction on that issue, which is actually more salient, the injuries often more severe.

              https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...data-1.4460651

              So I wander into threads like this, purposely, and hear such things as I'm being irresponsible, might harm other people through not having winter tires (even though I don't harm other people) and I get lectured by any majority that uses winter tires. A majority that doesn't do so much as clear, sand, treat their own sidewalks. Well heres the deal. MORE walking injuries are PROVEN to occur due to bad and slippery roads and sidewalks. Its indisputable, the slippery conditions were the MECHANISM of injury. Find me a dozen traffic accidents a year in Alberta where lack of winter tires was cited as the mechanism of injury. Or wherein that alone made the difference. I'll respond by showing you information on how many people die or are injured through slips and falls (many seniors die due to a hip injury within 1-2 yrs of having that injury)


              How many parents teach their kids properly about harm reduction drug use. How many carefully differentiate between "don't use drugs" plurality and Don't take harmful drugs specificity and carefully explaining why? Take a glance at the opioid fatality stats in Alberta sometime. Compare that severity to winter accident fatalities.


              As a public health practitioner/counselor what boggles my mind is how much energy is focused on one endeavor, putting on winter tires, that makes a slight difference over all seasons radials (which are better tires than they are given credit for) but that much less effective intervention is placed on things like falling on ice (Which is most prevalent in Alberta and largely due to how deplorable are sidewalk surfaces are.) little progress on Opioid crisis, immunization.

              It is interesting that a higher proportion of adults will put on winter tires than will wear a helmet while cycling. I even think people commonly ignore other risks and feel like they are proactive because they put on one of the most meaningless prophylactics that makes relatively speaking, not much difference in injuries or fatalities.

              So yes Ken, I believe in harm reduction. I wear helmets, I wear seatbelts, I get immunized, I wear the best winter footwear available. I clear and treat mine, and neighbor sidewalks judiciously EVERY time. I get immunized, I get regular medical check ups. I believe in those things because I know them to make a significant difference. I haven't been convinced that Winter tires is such an immediate issue requiring my diligence. Again because its indeterminate what amount of injuries/deaths etc are ACTUALLY due to the difference between winter tires vs All seasons radials. The only reporting information you will see in accident reports is "road conditions" Not whether winter tires would have been sufficient to avoid somebody wiping out on black ice at 60k per hour..

              I can take one step outside on the wrong day and slip. As many people do. and people often slip on one of the first outside steps they make. Tragically often on their OWN or nearby sidewalk. So that it immediately reinforces that WALKING on ice is dangerous. What is specifically noted in reports is that the ice caused all those injuries, indisputably. What isn't established though is that Driving on All seasons is innately dangerous. People can claim this. But they don't have any stats on what amount of accidents are actually caused by not having winter tires. Those stats largely don't exist. YEAR ROUND most accidents are caused by such things as driver inattention, intoxication, speeding, reckless driving, non safe left hand turns, etc. The majority of causes are NOT what tires the vehicle had. Indeed this information is considered so relatively insignificant the vast majority of jurisdiction do not even note this consistently in accident reports. Maybe they should (that's up for debate)


              So I'm looking for convincing information, looking for adequate information. Not silly prefabricated road tests of non typical city road surfaces.


              So shovel your walks more often people. Something I mention frequently here in Edmonton. That alone will do more public good than putting on winter tires.
              Last edited by Replacement; 01-09-2018, 06:05 AM.
              "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

              Comment


              • ^

                adding yet more conflation does nothing to support your position...
                "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kcantor View Post
                  ^

                  adding yet more conflation does nothing to support your position...


                  How about substance. I've researched this often.


                  You want me to start giving some numbers to cite how negligible any harm reduction gain is from use of Winter tires vs other much more serious and life threatening concerns facing Albertans?

                  OK, In a recent year,(2016) in Alberta 2 fatalities in the whole province were denoted to be caused by "Tire failure" which is the only thing cited even remotely related to tires. (Most of these being blowouts) This is out of 347 fatalities. Further only 34 of these fatalities even involved road conditions denoted to be slush/ice and this representing 10% of the total. Maybe of those 1 or 2 could have been prevented with better winter tires. Hard to say because again the figures don't denote that. As per always the vast majority of traffic accidents are caused by what they are always caused by. Dangerous driving, inattentive driving, impaired driving, unsafe driver actions, speeding, reckless driving. Which winter tires don't prevent..

                  meanwhile something like this;

                  https://globalnews.ca/news/4421463/a...ntanyl-deaths/


                  So 2 fatalities EVERY DAY due to OD's in the province.


                  The reason I conflate this is in the scheme of things Winter tire usage is a relatively negligible concern yet people are "panicked (words used even in this thread) to get their winter tires on.

                  Plus lets be clear here. I conflated in response to YOUR conflation about my general feelings on harm reduction. fair?

                  Or you want to argue some more?


                  or are you going to cede with another one line reply ( humorously intended taunt)


                  Hey, my stance aside I think jurisdictions SHOULD be collecting more traffic information than they are. I think just as a point of interest they should at least monitor or denote which % of vehicles were using Winter vs all seasons etc. I mean they even denote use of seat belts in almost all instances. Wouldn't you think that winter tire usage should be more commonly tracked information in accident reports that is readily made available?


                  I require a bit more ACTUAL real world information in which to ascertain Winter tires making any appreciable difference in the real world. Because unlike the commercials I don't have snow monsters or trees, or goblins jumping out at me that I have to avoid in pinpoint steering precision while innocent children are depicted smiling in the backseat. Basically the adds use any bs they can to try to convince people to use Winter tires. To me any time I'm being duped with adds like this I'm wondering why they don't provide better information.


                  The real world circumstance urban drivers face is roads that are heavily maintained, almost constantly maintained, and wherein people don't commonly jump under your winter (or any) tires...
                  Last edited by Replacement; 01-09-2018, 09:30 AM.
                  "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Replacement View Post
                    Originally posted by kcantor View Post
                    ^

                    adding yet more conflation does nothing to support your position...


                    How about substance. I've researched this often.


                    You want me to start giving some numbers to cite how negligible any harm reduction gain is from use of Winter tires vs other much more serious and life threatening concerns facing Albertans?

                    OK, In a recent year,(2016) in Alberta 2 fatalities in the whole province were denoted to be caused by "Tire failure" which is the only thing cited even remotely related to tires. (Most of these being blowouts) This is out of 347 fatalities. Further only 34 of these fatalities even involved road conditions denoted to be slush/ice and this representing 10% of the total. Maybe of those 1 or 2 could have been prevented with better winter tires. Hard to say because again the figures don't denote that. As per always the vast majority of traffic accidents are caused by what they are always caused by. Dangerous driving, inattentive driving, impaired driving, unsafe driver actions, speeding, reckless driving. Which winter tires don't prevent..

                    meanwhile something like this;

                    https://globalnews.ca/news/4421463/a...ntanyl-deaths/


                    So 2 fatalities EVERY DAY due to OD's in the province.


                    The reason I conflate this is in the scheme of things Winter tire usage is a relatively negligible concern yet people are "panicked (words used even in this thread) to get their winter tires on.

                    Plus lets be clear here. I conflated in response to YOUR conflation about my general feelings on harm reduction. fair?

                    Or you want to argue some more?


                    or are you going to cede with another one line reply ( humorously intended taunt)


                    Hey, my stance aside I think jurisdictions SHOULD be collecting more traffic information than they are. I think just as a point of interest they should at least monitor or denote which % of vehicles were using Winter vs all seasons etc. I mean they even denote use of seat belts in almost all instances. Wouldn't you think that winter tire usage should be more commonly tracked information in accident reports that is readily made available?


                    I require a bit more ACTUAL real world information in which to ascertain Winter tires making any appreciable difference in the real world. Because unlike the commercials I don't have snow monsters or trees, or goblins jumping out at me that I have to avoid in pinpoint steering precision while innocent children are depicted smiling in the backseat. Basically the adds use any bs they can to try to convince people to use Winter tires. To me any time I'm being duped with adds like this I'm wondering why they don't provide better information.


                    The real world circumstance urban drivers face is roads that are heavily maintained, almost constantly maintained, and wherein people don't commonly jump under your winter (or any) tires...
                    Sort of like fighting speeding, playground zone speed limits, dedicated bike lanes, worrying about water quality at beaches...

                    Comment


                    • ^Is it?

                      The first two are mitigations that anybody can abide by at no additional extra cost. If the Govt says I have to slow down in certain zones I'll question the need, for instance the rarity of such fatality or collision in such areas in the first place and the further rarity of how many of those had 50k speed as the cause. But I'll abide. Doesn't cost me anything extra to and I don't have to make inordinate ongoing efforts at great expense to follow through.

                      With Winter tires I question how much public health benefit is actually obtained. Interestingly so do accident investigations in any reporting jurisdiction I have seen. They all track seat belt usage, because seat belts are a largely confirmed safety feature. Easy to understand as well that you have less chance of getting killed if your body isn't projected head first through the windshield into any hard object that cracks it open.. But the investigations of accidents, which often spend hours determining 100s of potential factors don't even mention the presence of snow tires in reporting. Its not even considered important enough to put it into the accident report or the statistics. Which is too bad as that would be the most salient information regarding winter tire significance in actual world conditions and actual world accidents.. I WANT to see that type of information. Its what its going to take to convince me of there being salient benefit served.


                      Dedicated bike lanes I'm all in favor of as I'm in favor of pedestrian overpasses, pedestrian ROW, freeways, ring roads, multi use paths and more things that separate vehicles from pedestrians. THAT is good planning.


                      AS far as why I post on some of the themes is I have a natural and career interest in public safety. By all SURFACE reasons I should be a natural advocate of Winter tires. Should be, but unlike other things where its easy to see the public benefit of harm reduction, its not so clear how much harm is lessened through the mandated usage of winter tires in a City like Edmonton in the province of Alberta.


                      I want actual real world data substantiation. Actual accident data citing tires.
                      Last edited by Replacement; 01-09-2018, 09:57 AM.
                      "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

                      Comment


                      • I am needing winter tires for my new Honda Civic Touring. It has 215/50R17 for summer and I took the 16" rims for winter and pothole season 215/55R16

                        I have been running Michelin X-Ice Xi3's on my previous car and the Subaru Outback.

                        Any suggestions for the Honda?

                        Looking at the BFG Winter T/A KSI or the Continental WinterContact SI but open to suggestions or links to tire tests.
                        Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Medwards View Post
                          If you don't want to change tires, just get ALL-WEATHER tires... (not to be confused with ALL-SEASON which is really just 3 seasons). If you can't afford tires, take a bus. You shouldn't be driving on the road if you are a hazard to yourself and others. No, driving slower than everyone else is not a safety tactic, its very hazardous.
                          So are those who put their faith in ABS,4 wheel drive,traction control,winter tires,antilock, autonomous braking,ect ect ect are LESS a risk? INSTEAD of ensuring they can drive a vehicle with the knowledge and skills necessary to do so properly. Considering the number of problems after a snowfall in this city, I'd say it's a gross lack of skill and NOT a lack of snow tires causing the problems. All the technology is wonderful ONLY of one KNOWS how to drive ..In the first place. I'll give you an example. Would you knowingly board an aircraft if the pilot did not have commensurate skills to fly it without the FMS?(For the layman...Flight management system.)In other words,if the flight computer failed and the pilots had to hand fly it and they didn't have the knowledge to do so, does it make it any safer having a flight management computer? ABS,4 wheel drive,traction control,winter tires,antilock,autonomous braking do NOT prevent BAD drivers from having pile ups.We see it EVERY time we get snow, or freezing rain. Solution...Mandatory winter training for every new driver and any foreigner wishing to drive here. Govt road and knowledge tests.Re test for every one regardless of class every 5 years. If you fail, you can re test once. Fail again, you must take re training until you pass. Focus should get back to the bad drivers and their LACK of skill and less on the training wheel solutions to bad driving.
                          Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

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                          • Hard to say. Maybe the accidents are being caused by people driving on worn down all season tires, older low tech vehicles etc. Who collects such stats?

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