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  • #31
    Let me rephrase that: is this a good move or bad move for Edmonton taxpayers? I don't give a crap about unions or special interest groups.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

    Comment


    • #32
      EPCOR already took care of 3 out of 4 steps in the water treatment cycle & now they'll do the whole shebang.
      1. Water treatment to make water potable.
      2. Distribution of potable water
      3. Collection of drainage <- This is the new part.
      4. Wastewater treatment


      EPCOR has also billed for drainage on behalf of the CoE for a long time as well.

      (I can't really give my opinion on this, but I'll try and dole out as much factual quasi-insider info as I can)
      Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

      Comment


      • #33
        Nothing changes for Joe Edmonton - the City has already negotiated rates for EPCOR for the coming 3 (5?) years. EPCOR has already been handling billing work for the City, so it is part of a streamlining process for the City's Infrastructure department and allows EPCOR to assume full water-cycle operations.

        The benefits are more from a business point of view as the drainage department has projects beyond city scope, for the Edmonton Metropolitan Area and further (Calgary and Regina among others has sewers with Edmonton's stamp on it, I think). The optics of a City department bidding on work has raised eyebrows in the past.

        Comment


        • #34
          I am a bit disturbed by the rising costs to edmontonians for water/drainage services. Epcor seems pretty proud of themselves for keeping their rising rates at like 6% annually for the next 5 years while increasing their dividend to the city. That's pretty substantial. Perhaps if they weren't so worried about increasing dividends to the city these increases could be kept in greater control. My Epcor bill is high enough already thank you!

          Comment


          • #35
            Well, it's supposed to be 3% for the next 5 years which is pretty much the inflation rate. Unless you're getting into the weed business chances are you'll be fine.

            Comment


            • #36
              ^ Except for the odd month here and there, inflation hasn't been at 3% for a very long time.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by etownboarder View Post
                I am a bit disturbed by the rising costs to edmontonians for water/drainage services. Epcor seems pretty proud of themselves for keeping their rising rates at like 6% annually for the next 5 years while increasing their dividend to the city. That's pretty substantial. Perhaps if they weren't so worried about increasing dividends to the city these increases could be kept in greater control. My Epcor bill is high enough already thank you!
                EPCOR water rates can only rise up to the rate of inflation & only if they meet all the performance standards/metrics laid out by the CoE.
                Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Not surprising if this pans out. Like many former great products; DDT, asbestos, vitamins, antibiotics, coffee, booze, and near everything else there’s often a bit of a downside to a good thing.

                  Pregnant women’s fluoride exposure linked to lower IQ in babies, study shows
                  April 6, 2018

                  Excerpts:
                  “Pregnant women’s fluoride exposure is linked to lower IQ in their children at one- to three-years-old, according to a study published in Occupational & Environmental Medicine (2018 )...”

                  “This builds upon previous research from the same prestigious team funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) showing in utero fluoride levels associated with lower IQ in 4 and 6-12 year-olds (Environmental Health Perspectives, 2017)...”



                  https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...udy-shows.aspx
                  I would have posted this in one of c2e’s couple of fluoride threads but for some reason they are closed.




                  Googled this and came across an older reference. Sept 19, 2017:


                  Higher levels of fluoride in urine linked to lower IQ scores in children | CTV News


                  “For years, many communities have added fluoride to drinking water to help reduce cavities. But a new study that has found a link between fluoride levels in pregnant women and lower intelligence in their children may provide further ammunition for those who are calling that practice into question.

                  In the first study of its kind, investigators at the University of Toronto, McGill, the Harvard School of Public Health, and other institutions have found a link between fluoride in the urine of pregnant women and lower measures of intelligence in children.”

                  https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health...dren-1.3595337

                  Last edited by KC; 04-05-2018, 09:54 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    It's a single study, on a fairly small number of subjects, in a country where very few people drink fluoridated tap water. And below a certain threshold, there was no impact at all. That threshold is approximately double what the average Canadian has in their urine.

                    http://nationalpost.com/health/resea...qs-in-children

                    Lots of further study needed.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      The repugnant state of BC sewage treatment plus some info on Alberta and the rest of Canada:


                      Billions of litres of raw sewage, untreated waste water pouring into Canadian waterways | CBC News

                      “In B.C., the province that dumps the most untreated waste water into rivers and oceans, the amount rose to 82.3 billion litres in 2015, a 32.7 per cent increase from 2013. From November to December 2015 alone, an estimated 24.8 billion litres of raw sewage were flushed into the Juan de Fuca Strait near Victoria, which recently voted to build a sewage treatment plant. “


                      http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sewa...ties-1.3889072
                      Hidden KILLER
                      Sewage from Greater Vancouver and Greater
                      number one pollution threat

                      Barely treated sewage laced with hundreds of deadly toxins is dumped in vast quantities daily into Georgia Strait. It spews from huge pipes deep under the surface offshore from Victoria and Vancouver. It is unseen. No one thinks much about it. But it kills. Some marine organisms die outright. Others will die young. Juveniles are most at risk. ...”

                      http://www.bucksuzuki.org/images/upl...den_Killer.pdf

                      By 2050! That’s over 3 decades away! BC is nearly 800% higher than Alberta. Quebec is well over 300% higher than Alberta.

                      Untreated sewage pollutes water across the country
                      By AINSLIE CRUICKSHANKStarMetro Vancouver
                      Wed., April 11, 2018

                      “British Columbia was responsible for almost 40 per cent of the sewage overflows across the country in 2016.”
                      ...the City of Vancouver aims to separate all of its combined sewers by 2050 ”



                      Combined Sewage Overflow Volume in 2016

                      Saskatchewan 0
                      PEI 415,935
                      Alberta 5,724,439
                      Ontario 8,091,825
                      Manitoba 9,227,555
                      New Brunswick 13,129,508
                      Quebec 18,636,908
                      Nova Scotia 19,159,955
                      B.C. 45,282,157


                      https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/20...e-country.html
                      https://mobile.twitter.com/PremierSc...129984/photo/1



                      More sewage dumped into Edmonton’s North Saskatchewan — but things are looking up
                      By MAY WARRENStarMetro Toronto
                      HAMDI ISSAWIStarMetro Edmonton
                      Thu., April 12, 2018

                      EDMONTON — The volume of untreated sewage and rainwater being dumped into the North Saskatchewan River watershed increased between 2015 and 2016, according to Environment Canada data provided to StarMetro.

                      The amount released has been trending down overall since 2013 but rose between 2015 and 2016, from 3.9 million cubic metres to 5.7 million cubic metres. While B.C. was the worst offender, Alberta was the only province that saw the problem worsen in 2016, the year with the latest data available. ...”

                      https://www.thestar.com/edmonton/201...ooking-up.html


                      .
                      Last edited by KC; 10-06-2018, 07:06 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Fluoride Exposure in Early Life as the Possible Root Cause of Disease In Later Life | Journal of Clinical Pediatric Dentistry

                        http://jocpd.org/doi/10.17796/1053-4...code=clpd-site


                        Fluoride affects whose brains?

                        Rutland Herald | May 31, 2018

                        Nope, I didn’t read it — Jack Crowther’s latest op-ed fake science rant on fluoridation. Well, in truth, I didn’t read it, I scanned it.

                        ...So, the new approach is that fluoridation of the water supply is affecting our brains. Really? Whose brains? Ours, or _________? You fill in the blanks.
                        ...”
                        https://www.rutlandherald.com/articl...-whose-brains/


                        Why the anti-fluoride haters are attacking a Calgary academic, calling her a 'fraud'

                        http://nationalpost.com/health/why-t...ng-her-a-fraud

                        Researchers urge caution over study linking fluoride exposure in pregnancy to lower IQs in children
                        Sharon Kirkey, September 20, 2017
                        http://nationalpost.com/health/resea...qs-in-children
                        Last edited by KC; 10-06-2018, 06:32 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ater-1.5348334

                          anyone know what type or how much orthophosphate will end up being added to all of edmonton's treated water regardless of it's use (i.e. industrial, institutional, commercial) and what that will cost in order to lower the lead levels to 4,450 instead of just replacing their lead pipes?

                          i know there are some other purported benefits to adding phosphates to a water system and that it is deemed safe for human consumption (at least until it has combined with some of the many other things it sequesters) but the flip side is that all of those phosphates will end up in a natural water system that is already struggling with excess phosphate levels from fertilizers and other sources that contribute to things like algae blooms etc.
                          Last edited by kcantor; 05-11-2019, 11:39 AM.
                          "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It's 1mg/L, $4.80/year to the average home water bill.

                            https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...drinking-water

                            There's also changes to the Lead Service Replacement program to help those customers with lead on their side of the service, but that can only go so fast:

                            The other two strategy components focus on homes with lead pipes by replacing these high-priority lines both on Epcor’s side and a homeowner’s land as early as this year if lead levels remain high. The full plan will be presented to the city’s utility committee March 22.
                            “The intent from Health Canada is to improve health for all Canadians over time so we want to do our best to align with the intent of the guideline and do it as soon as possible,” Craik said. “But we have to be reasonable in our approach about it as well. We have to be prudent with the ratepayer and do something that sort of balances that public health need with financial responsibility.”
                            (Using the old article for the quote, it's mentioned in the newer articles from this week as well.)
                            Last edited by noodle; 05-11-2019, 11:56 AM.
                            Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              so, at 150 billion litres or so of water being treated per year, that's 150,000 kilograms of phosphate per year being added to our water supply/water basin?

                              as for the cost, i was looking for the total cost, not just the average home water bill assuming that all of the non-residential users will also incur additional costs. i was trying to figure out the payback on replacing those lead pipes faster instead of buying phosphate...

                              assuming you can replace a water line for about 1,500, replacing 4,450 would cost less than 6 million so would accelerating the program you noted for their replacement not pay for itself pretty quickly given they're parallel programs where the phosphates don't replace the other but eliminating the lead would replace the need for the phosphates?
                              "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by kcantor View Post
                                as for the cost, i was looking for the total cost, not just the average home water bill assuming that all of the non-residential users will also incur additional costs. i was trying to figure out the payback on replacing those lead pipes faster instead of buying phosphate...
                                You may be able to get that info by digging through EPCOR's presentation to council from earlier this year. Rough back of the envelope calculations show it's about 2.5 cents per cubic metre of water.

                                Originally posted by kcantor View Post
                                assuming you can replace a water line for about 1,500, replacing 4,450 would cost less than 6 million so would accelerating the program you noted for their replacement not pay for itself pretty quickly given they're parallel programs where the phosphates don't replace the other but eliminating the lead would replace the need for the phosphates?
                                That assumes there's additional resources available for doing these replacements, which isn't really the case. There's only so many crews to handle the service line replacements, the water main replacements, ongoing maintenance & repairs.

                                Also, the phosphate coating is beneficial for people who have lead in their system other than their supply lines & those water customers outside of the City of Edmonton proper (& thus EPCOR's area of direct responsibility).

                                Furthermore phosphates are a revenue stream at Goldbar, which has enhanced its capture system, which now is used to create runoff-resistant fertilizer. About a million kilos a year. I'm not certain, but I think the system can handle a 15% increase (utilizing your calculations).

                                https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...tara-1.4820592
                                Last edited by noodle; 05-11-2019, 01:21 PM. Reason: More numbers!
                                Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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