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Neighbours should pitch in for big-city amenities, Edmonton mayor argues

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  • Medwards
    replied
    Originally posted by David Jackson View Post
    Well, the City of Edmonton does a good job on cost recovery of those roads. They park a mobile toll booth out on the overpasses overlooking the Yellowhead and nail all the commuters coming in from Parkland County with those lower than expected speed limits. I mean, come on, 90 km/h on the Yellowhead from Hwy 216 to 149 Street? I'm sure that thing is engineered for 110 km/h.
    Not much different from those entering Spruce/Plain on 16A...

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  • Medwards
    replied
    I think the valley zoo is an asset that the entire region benefits from, and should be a good candidate for regional cost sharing. Same with Fort Edmonton, TWOS and the Ukrainian Village.

    Putting up tolls, or charging people more based on where they are from is silly.
    Last edited by Medwards; 12-12-2018, 09:18 AM.

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  • Drumbones
    replied
    Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Originally posted by Medwards View Post
    The city of Edmonton government should be dissolved, along with all the surrounding municipalities, and a new local authority formed for the entire metropolitian region.

    A fresh start for a this area. Make Edmonton Great Again. MEGA!
    Ditch the Edmonton name. It's got too much baggage with the surrounding communities. Call the new megacity Strathcona instead.
    I was thinking the same thing! lol. I think Iveson is losing it. This is crazy. I’d like to see the dollar figure that people outside the city spend in this city. It would be ginormous. I’d even be willing to say that the 500,000 outside the city limits but still in metro spend as much as the 900,000 inside it do in the CofE. My family being one example. Keep the peace or even more business will be heading out. I think even the Oilers would fare poorly without seasons tickets and patrons from outside the city limits. I know this isn’t about shopping but still this is insane conversation.

    Leave a comment:


  • David Jackson
    replied
    I told Iveson before he was Mayor to close the Valley Zoo.

    Now, what are we really talking about here that is regional in nature?
    Telus World of Science
    Fort Edmonton Park
    Rogers Place
    Northlands
    Transit
    YEG and ZVL - these two are all user pay.
    Roads

    Well, the City of Edmonton does a good job on cost recovery of those roads. They park a mobile toll booth out on the overpasses overlooking the Yellowhead and nail all the commuters coming in from Parkland County with those lower than expected speed limits. I mean, come on, 90 km/h on the Yellowhead from Hwy 216 to 149 Street? I'm sure that thing is engineered for 110 km/h.

    Leave a comment:


  • Medwards
    replied
    Originally posted by SP59 View Post

    St. Albert and Strathcona County running their own transit systems doesn't cause inefficiencies for the COE so how is that not better for the COE? Transit operates at a loss. Are you advocating for the COE to take on losses that St. Albert and Strathcona County are already covering?

    Strathcona Transit does have stops in the city. I doubt you are going to increase frequency of the route by adding more stops in the city.

    If people want to live in Beaumont and have to wait in a huge traffic jam at Ellerslie Road that is their problem. Something they chose to do.
    not just transit, but having multiple different clients competiting for the same limited resouces pools (labour, materials, etc) can cause price escalations, and bidding wars. Going to table to bargain together (through a co-op, or outright annexing) levels the playing field for all.

    and about transit - Sherwood Park and St albert may run their own transit systems, but that's changing with the regional board. And IIRC, St Albert originally contracted ETS to provide bus service long time ago? I know fort sask, leduc, stony/grove and beaumont have all recently done as much.... until they are big enough... to make their own system....

    When a large corporation/industry wants to come to the Edmonton region, they can play each county and municipality against each other. Having a unified voice for the region competing in world markets makes us all stronger.
    Last edited by Medwards; 11-12-2018, 12:09 PM.

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  • Medwards
    replied
    Originally posted by RichardS View Post
    It's just assumed. I can assure you my taxes in St Albert were definitely NOT cheaper than when I was in Edmonton, both in Laurier Heights and Downtown....
    I specifically didn't mention St Albert. We both know why they have a higher tax rate... most of their base comes from residential.

    Leave a comment:


  • SP59
    replied
    Originally posted by Replacement View Post
    Originally posted by SP59 View Post
    Originally posted by Replacement View Post
    Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Let's post someone at LRT stations and on buses to check proof of residency. That should make things more efficient.
    Ever been to the Lower mainland? The Solution is simple. if you live in outlying regions you userpay more for transit. Different regions, different costs. If you want lines built out to outlying regions regional cost sharing is involved. Yet here we allow Strathcona and ST Albert route busses instead of them cost sharing in regional transit, vs their own specific transit. We even have a ETS bus going out to the Edmonton International airport, and the local shopping Center and hotels out there now. How much kick back is Edmonton getting from the IA, from all the facilities, businesses, that are only viable due to Edmonton? That only exist due to Edmonton.
    Isn't St. Albert and Strathcona County running their own busses better for the city than cost sharing? By running them they are paying costs. the cost to use the commuter bus is $6.10 per trip. Isn't that more than what a fare costs in the city?
    How is that better to the COE? That is essentially lost money as its grossly inefficient for ST. Albert and Sherwood Park to be running their own bus systems and commuter busses to Edmonton as that requires each to have their own regional administration, overhead, bus barns, infrastructure etc, and buy busses all on their own.

    By amalgamating multiple admins are replaced by one Transit Authority, which is bigger, has bigger fleets, can order more busses at one time and take advantage of volume pricing, economies of scale, Utilize Edmonton but infrastructure etc. Additionally it eliminates the need for redundant services. For instance the Sh Pk bus/St Albert could service a few stops along the way to DT thereby eliminating the need for some other stops. By combining you can also run the route at greater frequency and increased ridership.

    This in turn would be the impetus to more outlying regions joining in to ETS transit authority. If they see other towns doing it maybe Spruce Grove, Leduc, Beaumont etc also buy in and thereby decreasing unnecessary load volumes on commuter roads from people that specifically commute by driving into and out of Edmonton instead of taking a commuter bus. Not sure what the numbers are now but in the past 80-90% of residents of Beaumont worked in Edmonton resulting in huge traffic jams emanating from a small town. Its a picture of inefficiency and backwards transportation. Many of those residents could be better, and more cheaply served with transit.

    Lets increase ETS to a regional super carrier as we start to become a bigger city, and as most larger urban regions do.


    The last benefit, commerce wise, is increasing regional traffic to all outlying areas which has obvious benefit.

    To not amalgamate into A Central transit authority is just inefficient and speaks to division instead of cooperation.
    St. Albert and Strathcona County running their own transit systems doesn't cause inefficiencies for the COE so how is that not better for the COE? Transit operates at a loss. Are you advocating for the COE to take on losses that St. Albert and Strathcona County are already covering?

    Strathcona Transit does have stops in the city. I doubt you are going to increase frequency of the route by adding more stops in the city.

    If people want to live in Beaumont and have to wait in a huge traffic jam at Ellerslie Road that is their problem. Something they chose to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichardS
    replied
    It's just assumed. I can assure you my taxes in St Albert were definitely NOT cheaper than when I was in Edmonton, both in Laurier Heights and Downtown....

    Leave a comment:


  • SP59
    replied
    Can you show the differences in residential tax rates being cheaper in those 'small towns'? Or is it just assumed?

    Leave a comment:


  • kkozoriz
    replied
    Originally posted by Medwards View Post
    The city of Edmonton government should be dissolved, along with all the surrounding municipalities, and a new local authority formed for the entire metropolitian region.

    A fresh start for a this area. Make Edmonton Great Again. MEGA!
    Ditch the Edmonton name. It's got too much baggage with the surrounding communities. Call the new megacity Strathcona instead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Medwards
    replied
    Originally posted by RichardS View Post
    This is why this conversation is so tricky, and the current "we're being taken advantage of" approach can backfire spectacularly.

    Edmonton is, and wants to be, the big player in the region, the province, and the country. As the cliché says, with great power, comes great responsibility.

    If you want the big pro sports teams, they come with big pro sports team issues and invoices.

    If you want the national, and internationally relevant items, they come with the requisite work and invoices...

    etc, etc, etc.
    and if you want all this, but don't want to pay for it, move to Sherwood Park or Fort Sask. Get the big city advantage at small town tax rates!

    Leave a comment:


  • kcantor
    replied
    Originally posted by Replacement View Post
    Originally posted by kcantor View Post
    while transit amalgamation may well be a good regional solution, ceding that amalgamation to edmonton transit based on their track record (albeit council direction and support and/or lack thereof over the years cannot be separated from that track record) might well be a big step backwards for those other jurisdictions and for the region overall than a step forward.
    heh, that's a different kettle of fish Ken. Of course what I stated is accurate. Now if we're considering bloated, inefficient and backwards Edmonton bureaucracy as an impediment well that has to change anyway and we all benefit when/if it does. Maybe the amalgamation isn't so top down and Edmonton may actually get some operational input from the outlying authorities.

    I can speak first person about this as well. I'm old enough to have experienced the Jasper Place amalgamation. I can say definitely bus services improved, Transit Center was closer and more central to residents, stops more frequent. and the whole thing more efficient. Jasper Place users used to have to take an Edmonton bus at small transit station just off ST Pl at approximately 147st. Being that Jasper Place people, and the town were frugal, i.e. cheap, tons of people used to just walk a mile or so to take the ETS busses there. For most JP residents when the ETS busses rolled into JP Terminal and provided service to all regions it was a huge blessing.

    Also of note is that roads were paved post amalgamation (prior were mostly packed dirt/gravel mud) and paved sidewalks were built. Prior to that JP was infamous for muddy walking. HUge mud boots going up to the knees were not optional and as a kid in the spring I remember sinking into quagmire a foot deep in places. Me and my friend got stuck in the mud one spring just trying to go to the "Art Paul" book exchange to trade in our comic books.. We were like caked in mud/stuff like the escaped outlaws in Raising Arizona. Of course we had fallen into the mud pit so were covered with mud almost head to toe. To avoid our parents collectively disowning us upon our return home we had to spray ourselves off with a garden hose with cold spring water. Then learn to do our own laundry at a tender age.

    Ah, life in JP.

    I think property taxes even went down post amalgamation although not certain of the last point. I do know that JP had levies people would pay on property tax as additional amounts for "road improvements" that largely didn't exist. My dad complained about paying years of levies to JP for infrastructure that didn't materialize.
    the edmonton of today is much different than the edmonton that annexed jasper place (and Beverly and strathcona).

    we have traded a relatively unified council supported by five commissioners (or vice versa ) for a single city manager struggling with 12 councilors mired in/saddled with ward politics where the larger the city becomes the worse the ward politics get (not only here but almost universally).

    apples and oranges.

    ps. edmonton, like jasper place, used to finance capital improvements with local improvement charges levied against the benefitting parcels whether subdivisions or lots. it was a much more transparent practice than crl's and offered significant financing and tax benefits for the city, for the owner and for tenants.

    Leave a comment:


  • Replacement
    replied
    Originally posted by RichardS View Post
    This is why this conversation is so tricky, and the current "we're being taken advantage of" approach can backfire spectacularly.

    Edmonton is, and wants to be, the big player in the region, the province, and the country. As the cliché says, with great power, comes great responsibility.

    If you want the big pro sports teams, they come with big pro sports team issues and invoices.

    If you want the national, and internationally relevant items, they come with the requisite work and invoices...

    etc, etc, etc.

    Now, this does not mean that a regional framework with school boards, transit, police, EMS, etc shouldn't be pursued. It should. But as kcantor says, the big city's version cannot be thought of as the correct or only one...

    ...and you definitely cannot demand people pay for your services, when you definitely do not (and even fight to have to) reciprocate.

    Eat your own dog food...wise words...
    Iveson of course, through his impulsive outburst (common with him) has increased discord and division with his latest comments. he has a certain bent to being mercurial that serves him, or Edmontonians no specific benefit.


    Nothing like salt in old regional wounds to help them fester instead of maybe stirring some honey and sugar onto an olive branch.

    Cooperative dialog seems like a dying thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Replacement
    replied
    Originally posted by kcantor View Post
    [To not amalgamate into A Central transit authority is just inefficient and speaks to division instead of cooperation.
    while transit amalgamation may well be a good regional solution, ceding that amalgamation to edmonton transit based on their track record (albeit council direction and support and/or lack thereof over the years cannot be separated from that track record) might well be a big step backwards for those other jurisdictions and for the region overall than a step forward.[/QUOTE]

    heh, that's a different kettle of fish Ken. Of course what I stated is accurate. Now if we're considering bloated, inefficient and backwards Edmonton bureaucracy as an impediment well that has to change anyway and we all benefit when/if it does. Maybe the amalgamation isn't so top down and Edmonton may actually get some operational input from the outlying authorities.

    I can speak first person about this as well. I'm old enough to have experienced the Jasper Place amalgamation. I can say definitely bus services improved, Transit Center was closer and more central to residents, stops more frequent. and the whole thing more efficient. Jasper Place users used to have to take an Edmonton bus at small transit station just off ST Pl at approximately 147st. Being that Jasper Place people, and the town were frugal, i.e. cheap, tons of people used to just walk a mile or so to take the ETS busses there. For most JP residents when the ETS busses rolled into JP Terminal and provided service to all regions it was a huge blessing.

    Also of note is that roads were paved post amalgamation (prior were mostly packed dirt/gravel mud) and paved sidewalks were built. Prior to that JP was infamous for muddy walking. HUge mud boots going up to the knees were not optional and as a kid in the spring I remember sinking into quagmire a foot deep in places. Me and my friend got stuck in the mud one spring just trying to go to the "Art Paul" book exchange to trade in our comic books.. We were like caked in mud/stuff like the escaped outlaws in Raising Arizona. Of course we had fallen into the mud pit so were covered with mud almost head to toe. To avoid our parents collectively disowning us upon our return home we had to spray ourselves off with a garden hose with cold spring water. Then learn to do our own laundry at a tender age.

    Ah, life in JP.

    I think property taxes even went down post amalgamation although not certain of the last point. I do know that JP had levies people would pay on property tax as additional amounts for "road improvements" that largely didn't exist. My dad complained about paying years of levies to JP for infrastructure that didn't materialize.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-12-2018, 10:05 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichardS
    replied
    This is why this conversation is so tricky, and the current "we're being taken advantage of" approach can backfire spectacularly.

    Edmonton is, and wants to be, the big player in the region, the province, and the country. As the cliché says, with great power, comes great responsibility.

    If you want the big pro sports teams, they come with big pro sports team issues and invoices.

    If you want the national, and internationally relevant items, they come with the requisite work and invoices...

    etc, etc, etc.

    Now, this does not mean that a regional framework with school boards, transit, police, EMS, etc shouldn't be pursued. It should. But as kcantor says, the big city's version cannot be thought of as the correct or only one...

    ...and you definitely cannot demand people pay for your services, when you definitely do not (and even fight to have to) reciprocate.

    Eat your own dog food...wise words...

    Leave a comment:

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