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  • They were fiscally conservative in the way that elements of the Metro line should have been built differently (grade separation) which would have helped in its speed effectiveness. Also if they had simply spent more money to update the entire signalling system instead of trying to merge two incompatible systems we wouldn't have had to sit here for years after the line opened as they kept playing around with the system.

    Yes they did spend quite a bit of money, but if they spent a bit more they could have gotten things right the first time.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

    Comment


    • They spent a ridiculous amount of money and there is nothing good to say about the Metro line at all.

      It even is a poor trunk route for the St. Albert line that is slow, too many curves, low frequency and low capacity for any extension.
      Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 15-09-2019, 02:00 AM.
      Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
        You just have to look at the Metro line to see that it is not true. The COE is not fiscally conservative.

        One of the most expensive lines built anywhere that is slow, underutilized and negatively affects the Capital line.
        But the biggest mistake they made, the decision to try to shoe-horn in a new signalling system with the existing one on the Capital line, was indeed made in a penny-wise/pound-foolish sense.

        Comment


        • Excellent ROW design on the Confederation Line.

          Still find it odd that Ottawa chose low floor vehicles on a completely grade separated system. Looking at the video posted by Cumberland above, it seems too easy to step on the tracks either intentionally or by accident while waiting for trains. I've always found the extra 0.6 metre drop to track level on high floor systems to be a psychological barrier to stay off the tracks at all times even on a very crowded platform.

          Comment


          • Ottawa was blessed with an extensive railway ROW that was created well before Alberta was even a province. Much of it grade separated and used for years for their BRT system than built ridership.
            Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

            Comment


            • So looks like their having some problems.
              LRT is our future, time to push forward.

              Comment


              • And to think Edmonton has problems with LRT, in Ottawa they are having issues with their new LRT train fleet.

                'They're not perfectly round:' O-Train wheels to blame for train shortage

                The chair of the city's transit commission said that Rideau Transit Maintenance, the company that maintains the light rail line for the city, has not provided an explanation for why the train's wheels are no longer round.
                about 6 hours ago By: Jason White


                The chair of Ottawa's transit commission says the current shortage of working O-Trains on the Confederation Line is due to the trains' wheels not being round.

                Only eight trains were put into service at the start of Tuesday morning's commute. A ninth train was added after 8 a.m. There are supposed to be 13 trains in service during the peak of the morning commute on the Confederation Line, but multiple trains have been taken offline for maintenance.

                "There [are] flat spots appearing on the wheels, so they're not perfectly round," Councillor Allan Hubley told The Rob Snow Show on 1310 NEWS. "[Rideau Transit Group] has to run these trains through what's called a lathe, that rounds out the wheels again."

                "They're have problems with getting the work done that they were told ahead of time had to be part of the maintenance program," Hubley said.

                Hubley said that Rideau Transit Maintenance, the company that maintains the light rail line for the city, has not provided an explanation for why the train's wheels are no longer round, but he hopes they'll have more details by Thursday
                https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-...ortage-2035392
                Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                Comment


                • 'I lost everything': Subcontractor says LRT job led to personal, professional ruin

                  https://ottawacitizen-com.cdn.amppro...fessional-ruin

                  Once on the work site, his crew was only managing to shoot a fraction of their projected daily shotcrete output the majority of the time — and they were getting paid by the cubic metre. Schwenzer blames delays, inexperienced management and disorganization that had nothing to do with his people.

                  “I’ve worked for a lot of tunnel companies in my life, and I’ve never worked for a company so bad, so mismanaged.”

                  One example: Schwenzer said he’d be directed to one of the underground LRT stations and told it was ready for shotcrete. He’d mobilize his crew and they’d move the necessary materials and equipment through the tunnel — a task that would take several days.

                  “The minute we get there, they’re not ready. And we’re sitting there for three weeks, with nowhere to go.”

                  Another example: showing up at a work site, finding tonnes of garbage in the way, and being forced to clear it themselves. Or, wading through three feet of mud while spraying concrete.

                  According to Schwenzer, conditions were so poor that his crew felt uneasy working without him present. This newspaper spoke with multiple employees who corroborated Schwenzer’s account of the dysfunctional work site experience.

                  In November 2016, three Hardrock workers were on a lift, spraying concrete, when a piece of reinforced steel buckled towards the lift, leaving them trapped. Emergency personnel were called in for the rescue, and one worker needed stitches.

                  Schwenzer said he warned management about the structural integrity of the rebar at that site.

                  “They told me I didn’t know what I was talking about, to go shoot (the shotcrete),” he said. “It was the most unsafe work site I’ve ever worked in.”
                  Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                  Comment


                  • Sounds like typical construction difficulties to me, in all honesty, albeit worse than what you'd normally expect. The article is pretty light on contractual details, at first indicating that he had a fixed price contract, but then later indicating it was for a unit rate. So it's hard to make much of it. But being delayed by others, showing up to a messy site and having to move other people's crap, and so on are pretty much standard in construction for better or worse.

                    To be honest, it sounds like a fairly small, unsophisticated company got involved in something way over its head in terms of paperwork and bureaucracy and paid the price for it. Again, it's incredibly common in construction for a small company to take on a big job that's well outside their comfort zone, often blinded by the size of the project, and that big job puts them under because they didn't anticipate a bunch of things or didn't understand what they were signing up for.

                    Sad story, for sure, but not really an uncommon one.

                    Comment


                    • Reading it, I remember numerous site I have been on over the years. But I agree with you Marcel. I remember the early days when our firm would get caught. it only had to happen once and your spidy senses are up on every other job. For us it was the Uof A hospital and Poole Const at the time. I also remember pulling the plug early on projects. One, Rankin Nunavut project, I was flying up to do the balancing because the GC was desperate. Beside my on the flight was the Control contractor who had no been on site yet. I got off the plane, booked the next flight out and went to the site for 4 hrs as I waited for my return flight home. Plumber was still piping the unit. I think it was 2 months before I was back.

                      Now as a consultant I see small firms getting in over their heads all the time. Some however rise to the occasion and become very good firms.

                      Comment


                      • I can't tell you the number of times a GC or CM has been yelling at us to get our fixtures and a bunch of manpower to site to finish the suites... only to get there and realize that there's a single suite with paint, flooring and counter-tops and the other 199 or whatever are weeks away from being ready. I mean, anyone with a shred of common sense would know that everyone's time and money is being wasted, but it happens frequently on our projects. Or maybe the flooring and painting are complete, but not counter-tops, and the GC expects us to go in to suites multiple times instead of once. Even though it does no one any good. They just want to be able to tell whoever above them that the plumbers are back on site, even if they're just standing around waiting for someone else to finish their work.

                        That's just a very basic example that's easy to understand. Sequencing of construction is both an art and science, and unfortunately it seems many in the industry are abject failures at it. We're on another large social housing project where between the architect and the mechanical designer, they managed to design a suite heating system that could not be installed as originally designed and sequenced. The ceiling mounted radiant panels cannot be installed until most of the suite drywall is complete. But the panel/piping need to be connected to each other after they're in place. How pray-tell do you manage that when the entire suite ceiling is drywall and the panels were designed such that there's no spare space for inactive access panels without falling below the required heating input? They basically designed it no differently than you would in a commercial building where you have T-bar ceilings that function as access, and never thought to themselves "hmmm, can this even be built?"

                        I can only imagine the kind of issues encountered on large infrastructure projects.
                        Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 10-03-2020, 09:32 AM.

                        Comment


                        • I still remember my father who worked for a construction contractor, building schools all across the province in the 1960's. Several times, he would get reports from the field with glowing reports of construction progress. He would see that many of the materials needed for construction had not even been ordered by the site foreman so it was impossible to be at the reported stage of construction without the needed materials that were still sitting in the warehouse and shop yard.

                          My father would organize several trucks with materials and arrive on site and see that the foreman was sitting with his feet on the desk, workers milling about and the site being in a mess. Contrary to the site foreman's reports that they were building the second floor of the school, the main floor was not even finish framed.

                          My father would take over the project and split the workers into two crews, allowing the site foreman to have first picks on the crew he wanted and my father would take the rest, mostly junior greenhorns. My father would grab his tools and start on the opposite side of the foreman's crew, with my father swinging a hammer, teaching workers how to do things faster, easier and better and his second rate crew would have walls framed, sheathing applied, wiring, insulation and associated construction going full swing. His leadership was so energising that workers for the handpicked crew wanted to work on my dad's crew.

                          Within a few days, the project would be back on track and the site cleaned up and organized. Many years later, when my father was in his 80's, I met a 60ish guy who recognized my last name and asked me if I was related to a guy he worked with on a school job in Vermillion and St. Paul. I said I was and he repeated the same stories my father had told me and said that he learned so much in a short time from my father that he himself became a foreman and a few years later started his own framing & contracting business.

                          I myself, being in the manufacturing business,was transferred to Ontario at the age of 23 and was placed in charge of a multimillion dollar project that was one year behind schedule. Within a few months, I had turned the project around, honed a team and we shipped to the customer one month early with a 99.8% quality approval. Our much larger competitor had only a 50% quality approval rate.

                          Project management has a direct effect on being on time, on budget and the built quality. No wonder why the Ottawa LRT project has been an unmitigated disaster that failed on all three criteria


                          'It’s time to give them a real kick in the pants': City threatens to end LRT contract

                          City council has sent a warning shot at the Rideau Transit Group (RTG), threatening to end the LRT maintenance contract if the company doesn’t fix the problems with the $2.1-billion Confederation Line. The caretaker agreement with RTG’s affiliate Rideau Transit Maintenance (RTM) is a 30-year deal, but the city after only about six months of full LRT operations is ready to go nuclear if it doesn’t hear credible fix-up plan from the company.

                          “It’s time to give them a real kick in the pants to smarten them up,” Mayor Jim Watson said after a closed three-hour council session Monday afternoon. Watson said sending a notice of default to RTG on Tuesday will be an unprecedented procurement move by the city. “We’ve given them six months. We’ve seen some improvements, but clearly not enough to satisfy the public or members of council,” Watson said

                          Council, in the public part of the special meeting, voted 19-0 to send the notice of default and give RTG until March 31 to come up with a credible plan to fix the maintenance problems. There was no debate about the measure in the open session of the meeting.

                          The notice of default, which is a formal note that says RTG isn’t meeting the minimum performance standards of the contract, will come from the city’s rail construction director Michael Morgan.
                          https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ble-lrt-system


                          Just remember that the Empire State Building started by excavating a 5 storey deep hole, hauling earth away in 10 ton trucks through the busy streets of NYC and building 102 floors to completion in less than 14 months

                          Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 10-03-2020, 09:36 AM. Reason: added newspaper link
                          Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
                            I can't tell you the number of times a GC or CM has been yelling at us to get our fixtures and a bunch of manpower to site to finish the suites... only to get there and realize that there's a single suite with paint, flooring and counter-tops and the other 199 or whatever are weeks away from being ready. I mean, anyone with a shred of common sense would know that everyone's time and money is being wasted, but it happens frequently on our projects. Or maybe the flooring and painting are complete, but not counter-tops, and the GC expects us to go in to suites multiple times instead of once. Even though it does no one any good. They just want to be able to tell whoever above them that the plumbers are back on site, even if they're just standing around waiting for someone else to finish their work.

                            That's just a very basic example that's easy to understand. Sequencing of construction is both an art and science, and unfortunately it seems many in the industry are abject failures at it. We're on another large social housing project where between the architect and the mechanical designer, they managed to design a suite heating system that could not be installed as originally designed and sequenced. The ceiling mounted radiant panels cannot be installed until most of the suite drywall is complete. But the panel/piping need to be connected to each other after they're in place. How pray-tell do you manage that when the entire suite ceiling is drywall and the panels were designed such that there's no spare space for inactive access panels without falling below the required heating input? They basically designed it no differently than you would in a commercial building where you have T-bar ceilings that function as access, and never thought to themselves "hmmm, can this even be built?"

                            I can only imagine the kind of issues encountered on large infrastructure projects.
                            Totally agree. When we built or factory, the site foreman was on the bottle and was terrible at planning. Compounding problems was the construction occurred in the boom of 2007 when concrete took 6 weeks from order to delivery. Our contractor had to fire the site foreman but the tight scheduling was now in a mess and certain things such as part of the wall system was compromised due to the fact that they built the exterior first rather than from the inside out which required the architect to have to redesign the wall system to maintain the insulation integrity. Also, the outgoing foreman had delayed the floor pouring and then had the ceiling deck panels laid but scheduled the floor pouring before the roof was insulated and sealed, allowing rain to drain down uncontrollably 22 ft onto the freshly laid concrete, exposing the aggregate and destroying the finish requiring the whole floor to require refinishing at great cost and delays. Many of the workers on site in 2007 were totally green, often being their first constructio job with little or inexperienced supervision.

                            That is the problem when skilled workers are in such short supply during a boom.

                            Ottawa's LRT is another whole ball of wax
                            Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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