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Gunter: Edmonton LRT plan is a fast track to congestion

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  • yes, but for transit users to use transit, it requires purchases of transit vehicles, insurance, registration and diesel, all of which are taxed and stimulate the economy. and unlike roads, it also creates permanent jobs (transit drivers, mechanics, and all the administration staff that you love.)
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

    Comment


    • Yes, but that was already addressed by my previous statements that purchases of transit vehicles, insurance, registration and diesel are done on the taxpayer dime.

      As you well know, I have been advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit for decades. As you also know, much of the mass transit plans that were economical decades ago are not economical today and the cost/benefit ratios have skyrocketed many times faster than consumer inflation. As an example, in 1974 when Edmonton had less than a half million people, we built a 6.9km line (1.6 km underground) with 3 ground level stations and two massive underground stations for $65M ($250M today) or $36M/km vs $130M/km for a streetcar line.

      I support ideas like you do, for more express line and smart transit ideas.


      I support public transit but let's be clear eyed and not let transit myths continue.
      Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

      Comment


      • well, I may agree with you on some points... I dont think road users pay for their share either, and is heavily supported via taxpayer dimes as well. Let's just take a look at the cost of the Henday. I think the total cost of the Henday was around 9 Billion dollars? At 78 km in length, thats 114M per km.... or if you want to include both directions, $57M per km.
        (My figures might be a bit off - both the point is still there)
        A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

        Comment


        • Can you envision what traffic and commerce would be today without the AHD? Or maybe no WMD and no YH as well...

          portions of the AHD have up to 125,000 vehicles a day including trucks and if you understand that collectively, the AND serves as part of the commute or route of in excess of 300,000 vehicles per day, with significant reductions in commute times, the economics are clear.

          Compare that with the Millwoods line expected ridership. Most of which are current bus users. Just changing modes from bus to streetcar with as you have argued, no improvement in commute time.

          https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...2015_AAWDT.pdf
          Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 30-01-2019, 09:44 AM.
          Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

          Comment


          • Is the Valley Line going to be like Capital whereby the traffic lights are controlled by the trains?

            Comment


            • Can you imagine the NE without LRT?
              A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

              Comment


              • You avoided my point and ignored your own previous comments on the 30+ minute commute time from Millwoods on a slow streetcar.

                Answering yours, the NE line I have repeatedly agreed with because it was so economical and well thought out, servicing major points including the arena and stadium.

                And yes, I can imagine the NE without LRT as we have seen the line shut down many times. In fact, I remember transit strikes in Edmonton. Inconvenient for sure and increased the amount of traffic on the roads but the city was generally 'business as usual'.

                If as you propose, that the AHD did not exist or even all roads that 'drivers use for free', were closed, no buses could run and the city would cease to function.
                Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                Comment


                • Your idea is to replace LRT with PRT or GPRT, or Segways, or Gondolas really isn't an alternative. Yes, building the LRT in an existing rail corridor is cheap. Sending it through established areas costs more money, logically. The valley line is now well under construction... Are you suggesting we full stop on that and give up? We've signed a contract that you can't back out of now. Although the plan isn't ideal, doesn't offer much if any of a time savings, it is what it is.
                  A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

                  Comment


                  • I thought that you were proposing BRT and express buses along with better routes or did you forget that, just to argue.

                    I haven't proposed PRT in years for Edmonton.

                    I have proposed that the Millwood line have a elevated line over Whyte, BD Mall and the BD traffic circle to improve transit times and reduce traffic jams. We all remember the assurances we got on the Metro Line that failed miserably.

                    I also proposed the same thing as you, BRT and express buses along with better routes.

                    I also support a private venture of a gondola from the Old Strathcona Market to Hudson's Bay or Rogers Place, not Shaw.

                    IF, that is a big IF, the gondola is successful, allow the private company to build a line from 103rd and Whyte to the UofA and a additional line to BD Mall.

                    That would eliminate the need for the COE proposed LRT line to Whyte that would require a new LRT bridge.
                    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 30-01-2019, 10:52 AM.
                    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
                      I thought that you were proposing BRT and express buses along with better routes or did you forget that, just to argue.
                      I've proposed the existing express routes (like the 15) already are time competitive with the LRT line under construction.


                      I haven't proposed PRT in years for Edmonton.
                      Might be time for a new username.


                      I have proposed that the Millwood line have a elevated line over Whyte, BD Mall and the BD traffic circle to improve transit times and reduce traffic jams. We all remember the assurances we got on the Metro Line that failed miserably.
                      And yet you are already lamenting about the cost of the line without this extra elevation. $ $$ $$$!


                      I also proposed the same thing as you, BRT and express buses along with better routes.
                      I support BRT and express routes as a pre-cursor on future LRT routes, and places where LRT might not be a good fit


                      I also support a private venture of a gondola from the Old Strathcona Market to Hudson's Bay or Rogers Place, not Shaw.
                      okay


                      IF, that is a big IF, the gondola is successful, allow the private company to build a line from 103rd and Whyte to the UofA and a additional line to BD Mall.
                      I disagree with this extension. Gondola works good with two end stations, and maybe a mid station. There's too many places it would miss, and no room for gondola stations.

                      That would eliminate the need for the COE proposed LRT line to Whyte that would require a new LRT bridge.
                      Nah, the bridge isn't needed, but we can still have a streetcar/LRT run along whyte avenue from Bonnie Doon to UofA... a gondola here just doesn't make sense.
                      A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
                        Can you envision what traffic and commerce would be today without the AHD? Or maybe no WMD and no YH as well...

                        portions of the AHD have up to 125,000 vehicles a day including trucks and if you understand that collectively, the AND serves as part of the commute or route of in excess of 300,000 vehicles per day, with significant reductions in commute times, the economics are clear.

                        Compare that with the Millwoods line expected ridership. Most of which are current bus users. Just changing modes from bus to streetcar with as you have argued, no improvement in commute time.

                        https://www.edmonton.ca/transportati...2015_AAWDT.pdf
                        Can you envision what traffic would be like without transit? Or how much more parking would be required around the city?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Medwards View Post
                          Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
                          I thought that you were proposing BRT and express buses along with better routes or did you forget that, just to argue.
                          I've proposed the existing express routes (like the 15) already are time competitive with the LRT line under construction.


                          I haven't proposed PRT in years for Edmonton.
                          Might be time for a new username.


                          I have proposed that the Millwood line have a elevated line over Whyte, BD Mall and the BD traffic circle to improve transit times and reduce traffic jams. We all remember the assurances we got on the Metro Line that failed miserably.
                          And yet you are already lamenting about the cost of the line without this extra elevation. $ $$ $$$!


                          I also proposed the same thing as you, BRT and express buses along with better routes.
                          I support BRT and express routes as a pre-cursor on future LRT routes, and places where LRT might not be a good fit


                          I also support a private venture of a gondola from the Old Strathcona Market to Hudson's Bay or Rogers Place, not Shaw.
                          okay


                          IF, that is a big IF, the gondola is successful, allow the private company to build a line from 103rd and Whyte to the UofA and a additional line to BD Mall.
                          I disagree with this extension. Gondola works good with two end stations, and maybe a mid station. There's too many places it would miss, and no room for gondola stations.

                          That would eliminate the need for the COE proposed LRT line to Whyte that would require a new LRT bridge.
                          Nah, the bridge isn't needed, but we can still have a streetcar/LRT run along whyte avenue from Bonnie Doon to UofA... a gondola here just doesn't make sense.
                          Exactly. It was much like his PRT proposal when it was pointed out that you'd need all these stations with either a drop down to street level (Hey, the view out your front door just disappeared) or elevated (Stairs and elevator at each station). A gondola makes sense for direct connections across differing elevations.

                          And a spur off the valley line from Bonnie Doon to the university is all that's needed really. Since there's already a connection to downtown. "But what about the people from the west end", people cry. Sorry, but you had your chance for that and you got a streetcar down SPR instead. Transfer at Churchill if you must.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                            Can you envision what traffic would be like without transit? Or how much more parking would be required around the city?
                            Been there, done that... twice


                            Nov. 29, 1973: Commuters hit with city’s first winter bus strike (50 days)
                            https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ter-bus-strike

                            Feb. 16, 1982: Edmonton Transit workers settle in for a long strike
                            https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...nton-1.3986207

                            If you watch the video, they report only minor issues and a shrug from commuters
                            Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 30-01-2019, 12:10 PM.
                            Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                            Comment


                            • Because people were hitchhiking and finding other ways to get around because they knew it was temporary. It's not like everyone ran out and bought a car. If it was such a minor issue and warranted no more than a shrug, why do we spend millions running a system? Let's shut it down. No biggie, right?

                              Comment


                              • My life would be turned upside down if there were no ETS. Same with those of many of my clients. It would not be met with a shrug.
                                “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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