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  • The future of degree/diploma programs

    This is a US article, but interesting nonetheless...


    The Coming Twilight Of The Four-Year College
    by Martin Hutchinson December 10, 2012
    http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php...w?art_id=10736

    Excerpt:

    "Symonds pointed out that, although 60% of young people now attend college, less than half of those attempt a four-year degree. Meanwhile, the economy increasingly contains jobs that require a considerable amount of specialized training, but not a college degree. Such jobs abound in health care, but also include specialized welding in the manufacturing sector, where employees need mathematics beyond high school and a considerable amount of computer savvy, as well as an advanced training in welding itself."

  • #2
    It's no suprise that many people get expensive degrees they may not use directly in their work (I'm one). But that doesn't mean that people will stop wanting to see their kids educated, for reasons that have nothing to do with the job market (prestige, sense of accomplishement, personal insterests and tastes). Government might be able to shift some resources from graduate studies to welding schools. But really post-secondary education is a free market, the money will follow the choices of individuals.

    In Alberta, we certainly don't have any bais against the trades and technical education, that's for sure.
    Change the incentives and our car-dependant city can change too.

    Comment


    • #3
      My biggest issue is the large disconnect between a lot of education programs and real world jobs.
      "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
        My biggest issue is the large disconnect between a lot of education programs and real world jobs.
        More?
        Change the incentives and our car-dependant city can change too.

        Comment


        • #5
          More????

          I'll put it this way.. my dad is a CA. His firm would rather hire CGA's from NAIT than accountants that come out of the university stream. The practical focused education of NAIT prepares people for the work they will do. I think a lot of the critical thinking skills that are taught in university could be moved to High School or even something like a CEGEP program.

          I think there is more room for focused intensive education with university careers being undertaken later in life.
          "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
            More????
            I needed something to sink my teeth into. Thanks for obliging.

            Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
            I'll put it this way.. my dad is a CA. His firm would rather hire CGA's from NAIT than accountants that come out of the university stream. The practical focused education of NAIT prepares people for the work they will do.
            And if enough people like your dad hire NAIT grads instead of Uni grads, the average salary of NAIT grads will go up and Uni grads will do down, and more people will be attratched to NAIT. No need for society at large to do anything in particular.

            Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
            I think a lot of the critical thinking skills that are taught in university could be moved to High School or even something like a CEGEP program.

            I think there is more room for focused intensive education with university careers being undertaken later in life.
            Now we have some concrete suggestions that we can debate.

            I think critical thinking should absolutely be taught in high school but then we have to admit that we can't teach everything in high school, so we'll have to relax about the fact that we don't have the time and resouces to do all pre-trades stuff in high shool that the oilpatch keeps telling us we "need too".

            As for CEGEP (that's a junior college type program that people take in Quebec after highschool but before university, if people don't know). Do you picture it as a pre-req to uni, or as a replacement?
            Change the incentives and our car-dependant city can change too.

            Comment


            • #7
              ^ I think right now University requiring young first time student to take a year of "open studies" is equal to CEGEP... but the same thing could be done through the public system for way less. I personally am glad I did them for less at the college level where I was taught by professorial in smaller classes and not in lecture halls run by teacher aids and PHD students.

              I think NAIT grads are ahead of the curve even if they start out at a few less thousand a year, they werer likely working in about 2 years and with much less debt.
              "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                ^ I think right now University requiring young first time student to take a year of "open studies" is equal to CEGEP... but the same thing could be done through the public system for way less. I personally am glad I did them for less at the college level where I was taught by professorial in smaller classes and not in lecture halls run by teacher aids and PHD students.
                Just go to MacEwan. In my (more than) 4 year degree I never had a class of more than 40 people. And virtually all my profs were PhDs (no grad students).

                Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                I think NAIT grads are ahead of the curve even if they start out at a few less thousand a year, they werer likely working in about 2 years and with much less debt.
                But that doesn't need any policy change. Why do we need CEGEPS if NAIT is already a good choice?
                Change the incentives and our car-dependant city can change too.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Historically, universities were for rich kids to go and philosophize, come up with new theories, and research. We've warped universities into these mythical places where you go, get higher learning, and come out prepared to tackle the real world when, outside of professional programs, you get little of that.

                  All post-secondary schools need to be merged together with the waste removed, or at least compartmentalized with an honest disclosure as to what the result of the study will be.

                  Skilled programs would teach you what you need to know for a specific job, whether it's a 2 year technical program or a 10 year brain surgeon program. Higher learning academics that don't train you for many jobs but lead to researcher positions would be your math, physics, humanities.

                  As it stands now, all these kids are going and getting arts degrees and crap that doesn't teach you to do anything, and they aren't getting jobs while loading up debt.
                  "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chmilz View Post
                    As it stands now, all these kids are going and getting arts degrees and crap that doesn't teach you to do anything, and they aren't getting jobs while loading up debt.
                    I love it when people rip on the arts degree like this, it's always so insightful.

                    The value of an arts degree is really up to the individual. You're right that it's not going to give you a specific, pre-packaged set of technical skills like other degrees, but that's not the point. Writing, critical thinking, presentation skills and other things that it's geared towards are skills that stick with you for life. Do you ever wonder arts grads are admitted more frequently admitted into law and MBA programs than any other degree? It's something you do to set yourself up for the longterm even if getting the first job is a hassle.
                    Last edited by mnugent; 10-12-2012, 03:10 PM.
                    Go down a few dark alleys.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mnugent View Post
                      Originally posted by Chmilz View Post
                      As it stands now, all these kids are going and getting arts degrees and crap that doesn't teach you to do anything, and they aren't getting jobs while loading up debt.
                      I love it when people rip on the arts degree like this, it's always so insightful.

                      The value of an arts degree is really up to the individual. You're right that it's not going to give you a specific, pre-packaged set of technical skills like other degrees, but that's not the point. Writing, critical thinking, presentation skills and other things that it's geared towards are skills that stick with you for life. Do you ever wonder arts grads are admitted more frequently admitted into law and MBA programs than any other degree? It's something you do to set yourself up for the longterm even if getting the first job is a hassle.
                      No I don't wonder why Arts students are admitted to those programs more. It's because an Arts degree is exactly just a prerequisite for those programs. Selling that same program to kids as if it stands on it's own is the crime.
                      "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kevlar View Post
                        Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                        ^ I think right now University requiring young first time student to take a year of "open studies" is equal to CEGEP... but the same thing could be done through the public system for way less. I personally am glad I did them for less at the college level where I was taught by professorial in smaller classes and not in lecture halls run by teacher aids and PHD students.
                        Just go to MacEwan. In my (more than) 4 year degree I never had a class of more than 40 people. And virtually all my profs were PhDs (no grad students).

                        Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                        I think NAIT grads are ahead of the curve even if they start out at a few less thousand a year, they werer likely working in about 2 years and with much less debt.
                        But that doesn't need any policy change. Why do we need CEGEPS if NAIT is already a good choice?
                        I think that we could make it a public option for next to no cost. If we look at the net benefit to all of society and productivity in general I am sure there would be a case for this and by undertaking 100 level cores under a public system we could also reduce the time spent having to attend universities. the post secondary education likely wouldn't like this as the 100 level courses are cash cows for them.
                        "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                          My biggest issue is the large disconnect between a lot of "UNIVERSTIY" education programs and real world jobs.
                          Fixed that for ya
                          Excellence is a continual Journey up a staircase where there is NO top step...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chmilz View Post
                            No I don't wonder why Arts students are admitted to those programs more. It's because an Arts degree is exactly just a prerequisite for those programs. Selling that same program to kids as if it stands on it's own is the crime.
                            Originally posted by KenL2 View Post
                            Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                            My biggest issue is the large disconnect between a lot of "UNIVERSTIY" education programs and real world jobs.
                            Fixed that for ya
                            At the end of the day, the people that go the furthest are the ones that ask "why". A technical degree might make you a solid, obidient worker, but just that. It's going to get you that fancy entry-level position that you so value but you're going to have a harder time climbing the latter in the long run than someone with a broader university education.
                            Go down a few dark alleys.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nobody is forcing anyone to take any courses and/or degrees. Adults should have the choice and freedom to pursue whatever career they choose. Career tends can be hard to predict - who could imagine App developers and online commerce in the early 80s?

                              Given that the cost of rent/food/transit is often greater than tuition, universities may consider condensing 4-yr undergrad programs into 3 years. A 3-yr BA/BSc is pretty common in many Commonwealth countries (UK, India, Australia etc) so no reason why it won't work here.

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