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  • I thank you kcantor for taking the bait. I always like your thoughtful comments.

    If one of Edmonton's First Nations artists went over to Spain or Italy and carved an exact replica of Michaelangelo's David, I would be thrilled. As long as he or she does not say it was done by Michaelangelo and wants $20m for the sculpture.

    This is a great and thoughtful debate that has huge consequences and lots of social issues. I think of the issue like Champagne. They set rules that anyone can make champagne style wines but only those from the region can be called Champagne. All others can be called sparkling wines.

    Making illogical rules on art is truly restrictive and cuts both ways. Why can't a woman play a man's part or a gay man play a straight man or vise versa? Just don't claim to be the real thing. Everyone know that most of the tourist items and art these days are made in China.

    It is almost like reverse racism. There, I said it. Not allowing others to be inspired and emulate is just wrong. I like Chuck Berry and I like when The Beatles or even Michael J. Fox plays Chuck Berry too.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-08-2018, 06:50 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kcantor View Post
      Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
      Originally posted by Spill View Post
      ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
      Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

      I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

      No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
      emphasis added...

      why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

      as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
      Amanda PL' s work is outright forgery. It mimics line, thickness and hue of the work its emulating. It copies the shapes and depictions and representation of the art to the degree that it is a clear copy of Norval Morriseau's woodland depictions To the degree where the Toronto Art Gallery upon becoming informed refused to exhibit her plagiarized work. Her work was such an outright copy of indigenous work the gallery owner is on record saying he had just assumed she was indigenous and was surprised that she wasn't. Heres a strong statement from the gallery owner in question;

      “Our society has taken away the land, the freedom, the dignity and even the children of indigenous people,” Magee tells me. “And it has done too little to make retribution. They don’t have a lot left to claim as their own, not even their art, apparently.”

      Magee says it was not a hecklers’ veto that led to the cancellation but, rather, the dawning realization that Amanda PL’s show could cause great offense. “We made the decision because we woke up—and woke up quickly.”


      Yet Amanda PL continues to misrepresent that "this is my art". She verbatim stated that. If she literally Xeroxed copies of Norvals paintings would it be her art? Where is the line drawn? (excuse pun) Anybody could look at the works side by side and immediately think that they were attempts at Norvals work. She even acknowledges her work is "very similar" to Norval Morriseaus work. So that I think she's playing at words here. If this was truly her art and inspiration it would have occurred without Norvals brilliant precedent art. Ask yourself seriously if it would have. Ask yourself then if this is really Amanda PL's art or just plagiarism.

      Amanda PL thinks that she should be able to outright mimic indigenous art, to appropriate it. This article, with comments taken from Norval's family highlights the concern with cultural appropriation;

      http://aptnnews.ca/2017/05/09/norval...oronto-artist/


      And this worries him

      “Even ten years from now that her work is probably going to hang up somewhere and my dad’s artwork will be hanging right next it and people aren’t even going to know what it means,” said Eugene Morrisseau.

      He said the teachings that Anishinabe artists depict are thousands of years old; passed along through generations.

      “Oh they’re going to tell stories, Ahchoogahnoog eh, that’s where I used to go to listen to these stories through my grandparents,” he said. “Through the Elders, this is what this means when you pass on, put it on canvas this is how you tell the story.”

      Morrisseau said you can’t just pick up what he knows from the internet or books"

      I think its the heart of indigenous history being an oral and artistic history that tells its stories that is the key here. In our discussion posters are making no distinction between western world history which is conveyed in print words, which is recorded in original source records that anybody can go back to, vs a heritage that is either depicted in drawings or in verbal oral passed on history. The distinct difficulty is that when non indigenous people become part of that dialog it ALTERS that depicted history. It confuses it. One has to understand that indigenous art is more than just art. It is a depiction of their spirituality, which they should have a right to preserving.
      "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
        I thank you kcantor for taking the bait. I always like your thoughtful comments.

        If one of Edmonton's First Nations artists went over to Spain or Italy and carved an exact replica of Michaelangelo's David, I would be thrilled. As long as he or she does not say it was done by Michaelangelo and wants $20m for the sculpture.

        This is a great and thoughtful debate that has huge consequences and lots of social issues. I think of the issue like Champagne. They set rules that anyone can make champagne style wines but only those from the region can be called Champagne. All others can be called sparkling wines.

        Making illogical rules on art is truly restrictive and cuts both ways. Why can't a woman play a man's part or a gay man play a straight man or vise versa? Just don't claim to be the real thing. Everyone know that most of the tourist items and art these days are made in China.

        It is almost like reverse racism. There, I said it. Not allowing others to be inspired and emulate is just wrong. I like Chuck Berry and I like when The Beatles or even Michael J. Fox plays Chuck Berry too.
        But you're inferring the want to preserve indigenous history, culture, and art is illogical. imo it has been a great and wonderful gift. I am happy to be able to observe it or hear of it. But I would never be so errant as to ALTER it. To forge it. Like I just mentioned indigenous history and culture is an oral and depicted tradition. It is NOT a written record. Indigenous peoples did not write their history of thousands of years in unending volumes like the western world and other civilizations did. Their history and ethos, their being, is contained in the oral and depicted tradition. When that is lost, all is lost. There is no other thousands of years record to go back to. So that when these traditions of passing on stories are mimicked in essence its akin to somebody pretending to be an elder and passing on different lineage. The difficulty, as the Morriseau family, as well as the gallery owner, or the UN declaration depict is that when indigenous story telling (the art is also their story) is co-opted then their story is ALTERED.

        Are people somehow not seeing this major difference?
        "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by kcantor View Post
          Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
          Originally posted by Spill View Post
          ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
          Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

          I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

          No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
          emphasis added...

          why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

          as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
          Shorter answer. Western art or even judeo-christian art is not a sole record of said history. That thousands of years of history is also copied in the bible, in testaments, in various languages and scrolls. The art is not the only record. If somebody adopts the art form it does so without altering the history or depiction of that history because counter record exists.


          This is apparently harder to grasp for cultures that have written vs oral or depicted history. More than just art is at stake here. That's why indigenous people and others would call the theft "Cultural Appropriation". As a starting point in understanding the issues its important to go back to a consideration of what that term means and why its being used.
          Last edited by Replacement; 08-08-2018, 08:50 AM.
          "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Replacement View Post
            Originally posted by kcantor View Post
            Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
            Originally posted by Spill View Post
            ^ Finding artistic inspiration from a culturally-identifiable source isn't cultural appropriation. And to state that the artistic use of such inspiration requires some arbitrary level of consultation from some arbitrary representative of said source isn't "what is right," it's asinine.
            Agree whole heartily. There will always be art forgery and copycats like Armada PL who should not be doing what she does but then you have English immigrants like Ted Harrison who was inspired by First Nations art but created his own style.

            I would hate to see the day when only certain artists can do certain works in certain mediums. I have no trouble with a First Nations artist carving Italian marble of nude figures but if he copies Michaelangelo then I have issues.

            No one wants to see the day when artists are forced to go to indoctrination camps to learn about their subjects...
            emphasis added...

            why? all of the masters and their students copied each others works prolifically. what they didn't do was forge each others works - their copies were their work, not held out to be "originals".

            as for amanda pl, i don't think she is forging or misrepresenting. she is not selling her work as genuine native art. just as there is nothing wrong with a[nother] marble copy of michaelangelo's david as long as its not being sold as an original michaelangelo, she is not selling her work as original piece of native art. you may or may not like her art and you may or may not like her as an individual but those are different things. i'm not sure anyone looks at michaelangelo's art today and likes it or not based on his character as an individual and how christian or how italian he was or wasn't.
            Shorter answer. Western art or even judeo-christian art is not a sole record of said history. That thousands of years of history is also copied in the bible, in testaments, in various languages and scrolls. The art is not the only record. If somebody adopts the art form it does so without altering the history or depiction of that history because counter record exists.


            This is apparently harder to grasp for cultures that have written vs oral or depicted history. More than just art is at stake here. That's why indigenous people and others would call the theft "Cultural Appropriation". As a starting point in understanding the issues its important to go back to a consideration of what that term means and why its being used.
            The issue may be like hacking and stealing corporate information.

            A poor analogy here but I’ll try:

            Everyone in a company may know about some research but if some outsider breaks in, looks at the ideas and then goes and produced their own variation and prifits from it, using what they’ve learned, then that’s a form of appropriation.

            Native culture here was essentially invaded by the rest of the world and they had no ability, or apparent reason at the time, to lock down their otherwise proprietary knowledge, practises and processes. So their land, resources, cultural practises and art were and are poached and others thus profit from thousands of years of “insider” knowledge.

            British ‘stole’ Chinese pottery (bone China?)

            Othef took their dynamite knowledge.

            Steve Jobs saw Xerox developments of desktop computers...

            Thousands of patent lawsuits, music lawsuits...
            Last edited by KC; 08-08-2018, 10:47 AM.

            Comment


            • @MacJordaN

              “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

              Comment


              • Originally posted by KC View Post
                Steve Jobs saw Xerox developments of desktop computers...
                An incomplete/leading example. As I pointed out back in 2011, Apple paid Xerox PARC in stock for access to the Alto/Star. One of the few times PARC actually brought in direct revenue; this contradicts your framing of the example.
                I think of art, at its most significant, as a Distant Early Warning system that can always be relied on to tell the old culture what is beginning to happen to it. —Marshall McLuhan

                Comment


                • ...on a similar note:

                  https://edmontonjournal.com/entertai...w-cal-season-3


                  Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

                  Comment


                  • Still a beauty!

                    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

                    Comment

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