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  • 737 max 8

    It would appear that the system Boeing designed to be transparent was too transparent.

    Here's the terrifying reason Boeing's 737 MAX 8 is grounded across the globe
    Pilots are outraged that Boeing did not properly inform them of a program that can wrench control of an aircraft from human hands

    There is nothing wrong with the basic mechanics of the aircraft: Its engines, wings and control surfaces are all believed to be working fine. Rather, the passenger jet may have killed 346 people for the terrifyingly modern reason that human pilots were unable to override a malfunctioning computer.


    The cause of the Lion Air crash — and the suspected cause of the recent downing of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 — is a little-known piece of software known as MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System.


    The 737 MAX 8 has heavier and more fuel-efficient engines than prior editions of the 737, a change which causes the aircraft to pitch upwards ever-so-slightly after takeoff.

    Rather than instructing airlines to warn their pilots of this quirk, Boeing simply equipped the MAX 8 with MCAS, a program that would automatically tilt the nose downwards to compensate.


    ---


    Ever since the Lion Air crash, 737 MAX 8 pilots have been expressing outrage that Boeing did not properly inform them of MCAS, particularly the possibility that the program could wrench control of an aircraft from human hands.


    “We had NO idea that this MCAS even existed,” one anonymous American Airlines pilot posted to an online forum. “I’ve been flying the MAX-8 a couple times per month for almost a year now, and I’m sitting here thinking, what the hell else don’t I know about this thing?”

    An aircraft incident reporting database maintained by NASA is filled with multiple reports from MAX 8 pilots of the aircraft aggressively pitching forward soon after takeoff.

    One pilot wrote of having to take special caution during takeoff to remove the “MCAS threat.” Nevertheless, that pilot still suffered an “undesired brief nose down situation.”

    In another, a pilot called the MAX 8’s flight manual “almost criminally insufficient” and complained that Boeing had left pilots in the dark about the extent of the MAX 8’s automation.

    “The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag,” read the report.

    https://nationalpost.com/news/heres-...-8-is-grounded

  • #2
    Truly sad. Rumbles on Youtube has Boeing attempting to have the grounding avoided through higher up request... That would truly show how far greed has lost touch with life. We need to have that fine balance back.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
      Truly sad. Rumbles on Youtube has Boeing attempting to have the grounding avoided through higher up request... That would truly show how far greed has lost touch with life. We need to have that fine balance back.
      “We need to have that fine balance back.“

      You’re believing YouTube?

      Comment


      • #4
        My neighbour is an Air Canada senior pilot and a certified trainer. He told me that Air Canada is the only airline in the world that he knows of, that trains their pilots the procedures on how to shut off the MCAS system.
        Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

        Comment


        • #5
          A few fighter jets are designed to be inherently unstable and use flight controls like this to counter it. Being so close to the edge (or past it) improves their maneuvrability. However not something necessary or desireable on a commercial jet liner.
          Pretty interesting read on how they got to this point. In order to compete with the airbus neo they needed to add more fuel efficient engines to their 737, which were larger, so they moved them forward and up on the wing to accommodate. Which changed the COG and changed the lift characteristics. Which necessitated the need for the MCAS. They were considering a clean sheet re-design to compete, but that would take too long and cost too much, so the MAX 8.

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          • #6
            Not necessarily believing in it but another perspective to look at as the so called " real news" don't cover real news anymore. Believing in our news system ( accept local) is as laughable as YT if you really want to open the can of worms.
            Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 15-03-2019, 02:27 PM.
            " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nobleea View Post
              A few fighter jets are designed to be inherently unstable and use flight controls like this to counter it. Being so close to the edge (or past it) improves their maneuvrability. However not something necessary or desireable on a commercial jet liner.
              Pretty interesting read on how they got to this point. In order to compete with the airbus neo they needed to add more fuel efficient engines to their 737, which were larger, so they moved them forward and up on the wing to accommodate. Which changed the COG and changed the lift characteristics. Which necessitated the need for the MCAS. They were considering a clean sheet re-design to compete, but that would take too long and cost too much, so the MAX 8.
              Boeing 737-100
              First commercial service 1968
              Passengers 85 (124 max)
              Length/span 94 feet/93 feet
              Wing area 980ft2
              MTOW 110,000 lb
              Thrust 2x 14,000 lbf

              Boeing 737-MAX-8
              First commercial service 2017
              Passengers 178 (210 max)
              Length/span 129 feet/118 feet
              Wing area 1370ft2
              MTOW 181,200 lb
              Thrust 2x 26,786 to 29,317 lbf

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX
              Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Boeing has much greater influence in the US government than in previous administrations. Like many departments of the government, lobbyists and former employees of the very industries they're supposed to regulate have declared their intention to "cut red tape" and "Make things easier for business". Government should rely on people knowledgeable with the industries they're responsible for while remembering that the government is responsible to the people, not to businesses.

                Trump grounds Boeing jets amid global outcry

                The action represents a rare case in which other countries — including allies such as Canada, Great Britain, France, Germany and the European Union — refused to follow the FAA's lead in dealing with the safety of a U.S.-made aircraft. Even more strikingly, the U.S. bowed to the pressure, even after Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg assured Trump in a phone conversation Tuesday that the aircraft is safe.


                Trump said Wednesday that "Boeing is an incredible company. ... Hopefully they will very quickly come up with the answer. But until they do, the planes are grounded."


                He called the move "a very tough decision."

                "We didn’t have to make this decision today," Trump said. "We didn’t have to make it at all.

                https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...canada-1220264

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                • #9
                  Uh oh

                  https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...n-the-737-max/


                  Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                    Boeing has much greater influence in the US government than in previous administrations.(…)
                    ...please detail out what greater influence, on which administration, and which pervious administration was harder on Boeing?
                    President and CEO - Airshow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think this is the starkest sign of how badly Boeing approached the small plane market: It tried to kill the Cseries by getting the US government to slap an absurd tariff on a niche it didn't even serve, then tried to take over Embraer wholesale but failed, and now their stopgap solution is shown to have (literally) fatal flaws.

                      Meanwhile, China is having a major schadenfreude moment over this (they were the first ones to impose a full-scale grounding). Their C919 is another upcoming competitor in the small plane market and it's a perfect opportunity to hit back over previous incidents like ZTE and Huawei.

                      The small plane market is the next big trend in passenger aviation and none of the main players can afford to screw it up. So-called skinny routes, or point-to-point connections between middle sized markets, are breaking down the traditional hub-and-spoke model.

                      I wasn't kidding when comparing the end of A380 production to the end of Concorde. They were each extreme examples of visions of the aviation future, ones that the market eventually rejected.
                      Last edited by Foolworm; 15-03-2019, 12:36 PM.

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                      • #12
                        I’m always a fan of root causes so it was super interesting to learn that the Max 8 was a rushed response to the Canadian made C series jet, which proved to be an industry game changer!
                        "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RichardS View Post
                          Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                          Boeing has much greater influence in the US government than in previous administrations.(…)
                          ...please detail out what greater influence, on which administration, and which pervious administration was harder on Boeing?
                          From that well known lefty rag, The Economic Times.
                          Updated: Mar 13, 2019

                          Ties between Boeing and Donald Trump run deep


                          Trump has used Boeing products and sites as a backdrop for major announcements over the course of his presidency. In March 2018 he touted the impact of his tax overhaul bill as he visited a plant in St. Louis.



                          Before joining the Pentagon, acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan, who is expected to be named to the post, worked for 31 years at Boeing, where he was general manager for the 787 Dreamliner passenger jet.


                          Boeing has nominated Nikki Haley, Trump's former U.S. ambassaambassador to the United Nations who continues to be a close ally, to join its board of directors at the company's annual shareholders meeting on April 29.


                          Trump has also put pressure on U.S. allies to buy products from Boeing, the country's second largest defense contractor which received $104 billion in unclassified defense contracts between 2014 and 2018.


                          U.S. officials and defense industry sources said that weeks after Trump pressed the Emir of Kuwait in 2018 over a long-delayed deal for Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, Kuwait said it would proceed with the order.


                          https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/68389185.cms

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ^

                            you do realize that you still haven't answered the actual question RichardS asked don't you?
                            "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't recall any prior Presidential appointee acting as a salesman for his former company.

                              Trump’s defense secretary faces ethics complaint over Boeing promotion

                              A government watchdog group has asked the Department of Defense Inspector General to investigate whether Acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan violated ethics rules by promoting Boeing weapons systems while serving as a government official.


                              Shanahan, 56, worked at Boeing for more than 30 years prior to being tapped by President Donald Trump to serve as deputy secretary of defense under former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis. When Mattis submitted his resignation in December, Shanahan was named by Trump as acting defense secretary.


                              Since coming to the Pentagon, Shanahan has faced criticism over reports that he has touted Boeing’s line of aircraft over rival Lockheed Martin. In the fiscal year 2020 budget released Tuesday, the Air Force is set to purchase up to 80 F-15Xs over the next five years — a system, made by Boeing, that the Air Force has said it does not want.

                              https://www.militarytimes.com/news/y...r-boeing-ties/
                              And I'm not the only one who's asking questions.

                              The Trump Administration's Relationship With Boeing Is Under Scrutiny After Crashes

                              Shanahan, who came to the Pentagon after spending more than three decades at Boeing, has routinely fended off questions about potential conflicts of interest with the aerospace company that also happens to be one of the largest suppliers for the U.S. military.


                              His public support for an investigation at Thursday’s Senate Armed Services hearing comes a day after a government watchdog group, called Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), wrote a 9-page complaint to the Pentagon’s inspector general urging the agency to scrutinize the relationship. At issue is whether Shanahan pushed the Pentagon to buy more Boeing-made F-15X fighter jets, which the Air Force does not want, and whether he castigated Boeing-rival Lockheed Martin Corp. during government meetings.


                              The group cited a Politico report in January that said Shanahan had been promoting Boeing while criticizing the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a Lockheed Martin program. The plane was “f-cked up,” he reportedly said, and Lockheed Martin “doesn’t know how to run a program.”

                              ---

                              Boeing has long been part of Washington’s “revolving door” between government, industry and the lobbying world that, critics say, make it hard to tell where one job begins and the other ends. Trump’s former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley, for example, is joining Boeing’s board of directors after leaving the Administration more than two months ago. (The company has also hired 19 officials from the Department of Defense since 2008, according to the watchdog Project on Government Oversight.)

                              William D. Hartung, director of the arms and security project at the Center for International Policy, said the arrangement is odd. “The Trump Administration’s relationship with Boeing is precisely what President Eisenhower was thinking of when he warned of the dangers of unwarranted influence wielded by the military-industrial complex,” he said. “The fact that the acting secretary of defense is a former Boeing executive raises serious questions.”

                              http://time.com/5552076/boeing-737-crash-trump-boeing/
                              But let's not question what Eisenhower called "the military-industrial complex". There's just too much money to be made.
                              Last edited by kkozoriz; 15-03-2019, 12:15 PM.

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