Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Toronto Man builds 65,000 dollar stairs in park for $550

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I'm not a journeyman carpenter...but that is definitely you get what you pay for.

    That won't last one freeze, one hard rain...and it is not that secure. The stringers are cracked from using the wrong fasteners...

    Sure, the price tag quoted...and yes PRT I completely agree it is also reflected in our LRT costs...is obscene. Stairs shouldn't cost $65,000 to span that distance. However, the city has huge liabilities...and the engineer charges X, the lawyer Y, the consultant Z...insurance Z^2...etc.

    The last 3 steps are going to pack, erode, and create huge depressions to trip in. When you have artificial limbs...slight elevation changes are even more noticeable...

    Good try...but I've learned that cheaping out...gets you in more trouble.
    President and CEO - Airshow.

    Comment


    • #17
      The idea of using concrete for steps is also troublesome. Great for the first 5 or 10 years and then a potential and rising liability as they crack, crumble, heave... plus the railings loosen...

      Comment


      • #18


        In our city:

        http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...-by-the-U-of-A

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Spudly View Post
          Originally posted by Dave View Post
          Originally posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
          Aren't perfect? They won't last a single ground freeze. Yes, 65k is ridiculous. But so is $550.
          Yes, the $550 was probably a bit on the cheap side. However, even if they have to be replaced every single year, just take a moment to do the math:

          $550/yr x say 20 years = $11,000.

          That is still a heck of a lot less than the 65K figures for the city to do it.

          I suppose we should be somewhat reassured that the City of Edmonton is not the only municipality that is not completely competent in dealing with capital project budgets. I guess bureaucratic ineptitude is not just a local phenomenon. The City of Toronto should be rightly embarrassed by this stupidity.
          A million-dollar lawsuit against the city from someone who got hurt by "something" that wasn't done right would wipe out any savings. Buddy and his renegade Stairway to Heaven wouldn't have that problem, though he might now that his work has been revealed.
          Stairs of any nature, no matter how eloquently or by code constructed are recognized as mechanisms of injury. Fall on stairs in any work place and get injured and WCB payout is all but assured. Stairs by themselves are an element of risk. No matter how constructed. A lawsuit can always occur involving ANY stairs no matter how spurious. Worse if the stairs are slippery, improperly maintained, differential height of stairs, negligence is proven etc, the claims can be much greater. Which leads to an interesting last point, that the City of Etobicoke could also be sued if somebody fell down that slope entry to the park due to the negligence of the city not reconstructing ANY stairs down there. In short not reconstructing the stairway is negligent. Not covering the trailway leading down to the park that people use, and could fall down and hurt themselves is negligent.
          Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2017, 10:43 PM.
          "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by KC View Post
            Well he used ground contact PT treads and that's smart when they are close to the ground.

            Compatible screws? Sealed the seam on the stringers?
            Why on Earth would the guy arrange the stringers like that? Simply stupid thing to do. I understand the guy is trying to be helpful but this is one of the worst constructed stairways I've seen. Then making the steps support the railing with the steps already subject to force due to how wrong the stringers are laid out.
            "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

            Comment


            • #21
              The stairs are a really poor design but he did make a point.

              I recall 8 or 10 years ago when a contractor rebuilt a retaining wall on 76th Ave in the Mill Creek ravine. They closed the road for months while two guys s-l-o-w-l-y rebuilt the wall.

              I wonder what that cost.

              In Edmonton they build stairs and structures out of PT spruce in the parks and then they never bother to come back and paint/stain them to protect them. Even two or three years later, they begin falling apart.

              Many of them are not much better than this guy built.
              Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

              Comment


              • #22
                Paint would accelerate problems by trapping moisture. Stain would be nice but shouldn't be needed.

                A potential problem is using the wrong limber. There's different types of PT with the ground contact having twice the concentration of preservative and with the new stuff it's a necessity to get the PT concentration for underground use. Even for wood close to the ground, I'd try to use the below ground type of boards (with the little holes all over them).

                Cut a common PT / 'above ground' / deck or framing board into pieces and you'll see that the stuff barely penetrates the surface in places. So in my mind using this stuff where moisture is frequently present means this cheap stuff becomes similar to or worse than a dam developing holes because it would let water in and rot expand unseen below the surface. Do ctitical framing or retaining pieces unexpected might fail. To me it's not much better than the using untreated boards with the old oil based stains which would also soak in but would fail at every spot where they were laminated or nailed. Water just bypasses the treatments.

                Also, I know nothing about retaining walls but imagine that if I built one, I'd want to first put layers/overlapping rows (shingle style to avoid trapping water and letting let water deep in) of plastic - probably cut up pieces of that corrugated plastic sheet stuff - against the dirt then have a space for backfilling with gravel to allow for drainage, (maybe even another separator say a layer of landscape fabric against the wood as well, then build the wood wall - with drainage at the base. I'd guess that keeping water and mud away from the actual wood would increase its life. I might even cap the top back to any ground slope so flowing surface water from rains would flow over and not behind the wall. Basically why let the gravel fill with muck and plug it all up.
                Last edited by KC; 21-07-2017, 06:20 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  KC wrote "Paint would accelerate problems by trapping moisture. Stain would be nice but shouldn't be needed."

                  Partly true

                  Pressure Treated wood should not be painted or stained in the first months because it is saturated with moisture. That is well known. BUT after it has dried, it is highly recommended to stain the PT wood.

                  Pressure treatment is intended to protect primarily from insects, fungus and bacterial rot. It does NOT protect exterior weather exposure and UV in sunlight will definitely result in checking and splintering of the surface which results in moisture penetration into the wood's interior where there is no PT. The weathering accelerates the degradation and internal rotting of the wood. Proper stains protect the wood from the elements and greatly extends the life of the structure. Applying a paint or stain also reduces the PT chemicals from leaching out, so the wood remains protected, longer. This also reduces ground contamination and reduces exposure to the chemicals to children, people and pets.


                  I bought a house with a 7 year old, weathered PT fence. It looked terrible and probably would need to be replaced within 5 years. I applied 4 coats of solid color white stain. The first coat soaked in like mad which reveals how much the wood was weathered and how badly it needed protection. Even the second coat soaked in!

                  5 years after I painted it, I still get raves on how well the fence looks and several people asked if it was made from plastic. The original owner did not recognize it as the fence that he had installed 12 years earlier. He thought it was a new fence!

                  Pressure-Treated Lumberhttps://www.dulux.ca/diy/tips-tricks/painting/filler-shows-through-the-paint-(10)
                  Pressure-treated lumber is kiln-dried wood (usually spruce or yellow pine) that is pressure treated with chemical preservatives dispersed in water. To check if the wood is dry enough for stain or paint, put water drops on the surface. If it soaks in, it’s ready. When the wood is dry, it can be painted or stained like any other wood surface. Pressure-treated wood that is not painted or stained will weather, crack, and check as badly as untreated wood over time.
                  also
                  https://www.yellawood.com/resources/...-treated-wood/
                  http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infpre.html
                  Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 21-07-2017, 06:55 AM.
                  Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KC View Post
                    Paint would accelerate problems by trapping moisture. Stain would be nice but shouldn't be needed.

                    A potential problem is using the wrong limber. There's different types of PT with the ground contact having twice the concentration of preservative and with the new stuff it's a necessity to get the PT concentration for underground use. Even for wood close to the ground, I'd try to use the below ground type of boards (with the little holes all over them).

                    Cut a common PT / 'above ground' / deck or framing board into pieces and you'll see that the stuff barely penetrates the surface in places. So in my mind using this stuff where moisture is frequently present means this cheap stuff becomes similar to or worse than a dam developing holes because it would let water in and rot expand unseen below the surface. Do ctitical framing or retaining pieces unexpected might fail. To me it's not much better than the using untreated boards with the old oil based stains which would also soak in but would fail at every spot where they were laminated or nailed. Water just bypasses the treatments.

                    Also, I know nothing about retaining walls but imagine that if I built one, I'd want to first put layers/overlapping rows (shingle style to avoid trapping water and letting let water deep in) of plastic - probably cut up pieces of that corrugated plastic sheet stuff - against the dirt then have a space for backfilling with gravel to allow for drainage, (maybe even another separator say a layer of landscape fabric against the wood as well, then build the wood wall - with drainage at the base. I'd guess that keeping water and mud away from the actual wood would increase its life. I might even cap the top back to any ground slope so flowing surface water from rains would flow over and not behind the wall. Basically why let the gravel fill with muck and plug it all up.
                    I would have dug the dirt out to form the steps , then shore with 2x6 similar to bottom half . Done for less than $100.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      plus your labour and $64,900 in profit! With that in your pocket, champking, you are buying the beer tonight for all of us!
                      Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        There were no bids on this project yet. Just an estimate, for what scope we have no idea.

                        Just 8 stairs keeps getting referenced. But this is not just 8 stairs. This project may also require a ramp. (Accessibility standards in Ontario) Maybe they need lighting? (Are you familiar with the relevant codes in Ontario?) Also maybe after all of that, landscaping might be required?

                        You also need to factor in money for the Engineer and Architect.

                        And profit for the contractor. And profit for any of the subs they might have.

                        So how do any of you know what this costs without an actual scope?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Channing View Post
                          There were no bids on this project yet. Just an estimate, for what scope we have no idea.

                          Just 8 stairs keeps getting referenced. But this is not just 8 stairs. This project may also require a ramp. (Accessibility standards in Ontario) Maybe they need lighting? (Are you familiar with the relevant codes in Ontario?) Also maybe after all of that, landscaping might be required?

                          You also need to factor in money for the Engineer and Architect.

                          And profit for the contractor. And profit for any of the subs they might have.

                          So how do any of you know what this costs without an actual scope?
                          I've built a few hundred thousand steps in my day . I doubt wheelchair access would pertain but even so : double the price tag to a thousand dollars . For lighting , use a solar panel and some LED lighting . No architect or engineer required

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by champking View Post
                            I've built a few hundred thousand steps in my day . I doubt wheelchair access would pertain but even so : double the price tag to a thousand dollars . For lighting , use a solar panel and some LED lighting . No architect or engineer required
                            Have you built any steps in a city park in Ontario recently? Built anything with the accessibility standards that are changing in Ontario recently? Do you know the codes? You going to put batteries in your lighting system so that the lights work at night? Are you producing the lighting levels diagram to prove you have enough light? What are the costs at now? Oh a ramp is only $500? Really? With handrails on both sides, in that tight space with multiple switchbacks required (with landings) and what are you building this ramp out of? And how are you supporting it? Maybe there is a better place for the ramp. Have you surveyed the property? Produced a site plan?

                            Are you willing to be liable for the design? Liable for the construction? Do you have insurance?

                            **** off with your $1000.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Channing View Post
                              Originally posted by champking View Post
                              I've built a few hundred thousand steps in my day . I doubt wheelchair access would pertain but even so : double the price tag to a thousand dollars . For lighting , use a solar panel and some LED lighting . No architect or engineer required
                              Have you built any steps in a city park in Ontario recently? Built anything with the accessibility standards that are changing in Ontario recently? Do you know the codes? You going to put batteries in your lighting system so that the lights work at night? Are you producing the lighting levels diagram to prove you have enough light? What are the costs at now? Oh a ramp is only $500? Really? With handrails on both sides, in that tight space with multiple switchbacks required (with landings) and what are you building this ramp out of? And how are you supporting it? Maybe there is a better place for the ramp. Have you surveyed the property? Produced a site plan?

                              Are you willing to be liable for the design? Liable for the construction? Do you have insurance?

                              **** off with your $1000.
                              I could do it for less than a thousand bucks. Solid steel ! last a hundred years !

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Channing View Post
                                There were no bids on this project yet. Just an estimate, for what scope we have no idea.

                                Just 8 stairs keeps getting referenced. But this is not just 8 stairs. This project may also require a ramp. (Accessibility standards in Ontario) Maybe they need lighting? (Are you familiar with the relevant codes in Ontario?) Also maybe after all of that, landscaping might be required?

                                You also need to factor in money for the Engineer and Architect.

                                And profit for the contractor. And profit for any of the subs they might have.

                                So how do any of you know what this costs without an actual scope?
                                Maybe through in a funicular as well...
                                Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X