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Behaviour of Cops in Edmonton

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  • 2019 has not been a good year for EPS' public image.
    I will beat the dead horse back to life.

    Comment


    • ^ Meanwhile they get paid more and more. Does this mean that if the good Samaritan had called in with a different set of symptoms EMS would have been there sooner ?Once again fire fighters are there first.

      I saw an accident last year on the south side. Pieces of cars all over the road, road blocked, EMS , fire where there doing there work. EPS, nowhere to be seen nor never showed up.

      I get that there has to be priorities but we sure seem to spend an awful lot of money on the police budget.

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      • https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...eras-1.5260814

        EPS, they of "No Rats" T-shirts and stalking journalists, will never accept anything that makes them publicly accountable.
        ... gobsmacked

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        • Security video reveals full extent of 'assault' by Edmonton police on alleged truck thief

          'We don't pistol whip people in Canada,' use-of-force expert says


          “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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          • And I suppose we don’t steal vehicles in Canada either.

            So people with issues suffer more brain injury, trauma, etc. and the cycle spirals ever faster downhill - at ever more taxpayers’ and society's expense.

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            • Edmonton man haunted by 'nightmare' police arrest

              https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...rest-1.5374368
              “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

              Comment


              • ^ And no disciplinary action whatsoever for giving an innocent person a concussion and broken ribs leading to PTSD. Unacceptable.

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                • Tough situation, given that there was a weapons complaint. He did himself no favors by disobeying their orders and reaching for his cell phone. In the US that would have been the end of him, he'd have been lit up. Thankfully Canadian police are nowhere near as trigger happy. Why he did that when there are half a dozen rifles on him, I have no idea. You do not make sudden movements or reach for pockets, glove compartments etc when police have weapons drawn. You do everything they tell you to, and worry about whether they are in the right or wrong afterward. And from the video, it appears that while he wasn't "resisting" perhaps, he was certainly not cooperating with being cuffed. I honestly think he was trying to record the encounter or something.

                  It's unfortunate that he suffered the physical and mental injuries he has, but honestly, most of the blame falls on him for behaving incredibly dumb while there's half a dozen or more police screaming commands with weapons drawn. Perhaps there should be some discipline for the knees to his torso, but other than that I really don't see what else the EPS could have done given his bizarre behavior and the weapons complaint.
                  Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 27-11-2019, 11:48 AM.

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                  • ^Bang on.

                    Weapons complaints are a different matter for police agencies. They are of the mentality that they have to protect themselves too, on top of the public. The fact this guy was reaching and not cooperating made the matter worse for him.

                    I feel bad he was some PTSD but this could have all been avoided if he had cooperated.

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                    • I think people are not thinking this through. "My head was just swimming" What do you think that indicates?

                      This man was arrested by mistake. With a platoon of police cars following him and 6 Rifles/service rifles drawn on him.

                      NOBODY can know what that feels like or how they would respond. If you think you do you're lying to yourself.

                      This is not something on TV. This is happening to a person, an innocent person, who had no idea what any of this was about, and its crucial to consider that aspect. The episode would create nothing but confusion for the individual in question. Arguably its easier if an individual KNOWS why they are pursued and what the nature of it is.

                      This would be the worst nightmare for anybody. One second you're driving along minding your own business and the next moment you are under militaristic siege.

                      Now imagine the person could have any underlying other medical issues. The man is 58 now. Was mid 50's at time of incident. Could easily have suffered a medical distress situation, heart attach. stroke, in that situation blood pressure would re racing off the charts for most people. Heart pounding stuff and body loaded with adrenaline. I'm sure most of you have had some nature of frightful situations, maybe even ones where you broke out in a cold sweat, shaking, flight response, etc.. Magnify that feeling severalfold and you have this situation AND your head being slammed to the pavement by several officers.

                      "Not cooperating" "Disobeying orders"

                      Try for a moment to put yourself in the persons position. Mind racing, panic, its actually quite common in these escalated situations for a person to freak out.


                      We should all consider ourselves fortunate that cases like this come to the forefront. That the police are denying any responsibility in applying full tactical response to a very poor "loose description" of the suspect should be shocking. Let me be clear here. EVEN if the man responded PERFECTLY in the situation having 6 weapons drawn on him would still be traumatic and life altering. He did nothing at all to bring on that traumatic episode, his only fault is that dangerous individuals exist in our society and that we have a criminal justice system that plays catch and release with the same. This man is the victim of Police forces habituated to dealing with dangerous offenders or hearing them sensationalized.

                      These are the strange times we find ourselves in now. When any one of our actions could be misperceived, or our identity mistaken, and we could be shot by either police or criminals looking to make a hit. Trigger happy times" "Over response? Not every incident is Mayerthorpe. But some incidents seem to polarize police tactical response, just using that tragic one as an example.
                      Last edited by Replacement; 29-11-2019, 06:23 AM.
                      "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

                      Comment


                      • At 1;22 in the video, before the take down, before the tackling and head slamming and elbowing and kneeing a statement to the effect of "it doesn't appear its the bank man" is made. just ftr. Its a bit inaudible but that seems to be what was stated to the officers. Probably emanating from the Police Helicopter.

                        At the very least the take down was not required. One constable moves in on the individual, Two could easily have controlled his arms, apply arm bar, and have him lean over the cruiser while checking. The ground taking down, the head slamming, the kneeing and elbowing and what appear to be multiple take downs were excessive and poorly applied restraint. Six constables should easily be capable of applying a very well orchestrated controlled restraint and yes I'm trained in such and have had such training for 25 odd years. What you see here in the video is a poorly controlled restraint, at best. The victim suffers several additional slams and possible injuries as a result.
                        "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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                        • Maybe sueing for a few million might have them take it more seriously.
                          Just enjoying another day in paradise.

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                          • Originally posted by Replacement
                            Try for a moment to put yourself in the persons position. Mind racing, panic, its actually quite common in these escalated situations for a person to freak out.


                            And try for a moment to put yourself in the police's position. All they know is there's a weapons complaint about a handgun and a white truck. It's impossible to evaluate whether the description of the individual matches while he's behind the wheel, so it's irrelevant that he doesn't match it. Fully agreed that it's an awful situation that he was placed in, and it's further compounded by his injuries and PTSD. But up until he was on the ground and they started whaling on him, I don't see how the police could have done anything differently given the circumstances and the individual's bizarre, non-cooperative behavior.

                            It does seem though, that there is a culture in the EPS that it's kosher to inflict severe physical punishment on uncooperative individuals, past what is required to detain them. I'd agree there. A couple other recent cases:

                            https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...urst-1.5313900 (If we were living in the jungle, I'd have no problem with that treatment given that individuals' behavior, but we don't. The bald officer who looks over his shoulder to see if anyone's watching before kicking him three times and then later elbows him in the head and smashes him in to the SUV while cuffed should never be in a position of authority again)

                            https://edmontonjournal.com/news/cri...g-homeless-man (at least justice was served in this case)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
                              Originally posted by Replacement
                              Try for a moment to put yourself in the persons position. Mind racing, panic, its actually quite common in these escalated situations for a person to freak out.


                              And try for a moment to put yourself in the police's position. All they know is there's a weapons complaint about a handgun and a white truck. It's impossible to evaluate whether the description of the individual matches while he's behind the wheel, so it's irrelevant that he doesn't match it. Fully agreed that it's an awful situation that he was placed in, and it's further compounded by his injuries and PTSD. But up until he was on the ground and they started whaling on him, I don't see how the police could have done anything differently given the circumstances and the individual's bizarre, non-cooperative behavior.

                              It does seem though, that there is a culture in the EPS that it's kosher to inflict severe physical punishment on uncooperative individuals, past what is required to detain them. I'd agree there. A couple other recent cases:

                              https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...urst-1.5313900 (If we were living in the jungle, I'd have no problem with that treatment given that individuals' behavior, but we don't. The bald officer who looks over his shoulder to see if anyone's watching before kicking him three times and then later elbows him in the head and smashes him in to the SUV while cuffed should never be in a position of authority again)

                              https://edmontonjournal.com/news/cri...g-homeless-man (at least justice was served in this case)
                              Reasonable reply aside from categorizing the victim response as bizarre behavior. Its not rare for escalation like this to result in atypical behavior. Its why drastic immediate escalation is not a recommended response I do get the difficulty of the police situation. But sometimes in that it should be understood whether someone loosely resembles a suspect or is more probably the suspect. As I stated at 1.22 in the video it appears its recognized that this was not the bank guy. At that point, deescalate situation, and with the guy appearing to be submissive (he initially submits to one officer grabbing him) he only starts physically resisting when several officers start piling on in over escalation. This is a natural response. Its one of the first principles in restraint that application of excessive force will be met with excessive resistance and thereby only increases chances of injury. A person being mauled by half a dozen people responds in a hardwired innate life protection response of fighting back.

                              Its really hard being an officer of the law. In different circumstance I might be the one coming to that defence and have. But something wrong has happened with overt police response. It formerly was not the mode that multiple police would respond, and in such tactical guns drawn force to such an alleged suspect. This it should be noted was a gun witnessed case. Not someone shooting at people or pointing it case. It could be stated that even the individual the police were looking for may not have posed any direct threat. Just that sensationalizing of past incidents has furthered police to respond in such way. Unless danger to the public was imminent an alternate method of catching the gun guy would simply be subsequently matching the truck of the gun guy to any surveillance video found at the strip mall which would possibly better identify or even narrow down licence plate.

                              Police basically went full alert tactical response in a situation that may not have warranted it and applied it all to the wrong guy. Could be any of us.

                              This is an aside but its unfortunate that in the streets of Edmonton there would be hundreds of offenders carrying weapons. Sometimes even flashing them. In past years theres been drive by shootings, homes, storefronts etc littered with bullets, guns pointed at other drivers pedestrians. There aren't any or many of these situations that saw the kind of response that this one did. I can't recall any where "loose matches" resulted in this nature of immediate police escalation. Would be interesting to know if the suspect is still at large or was caught. Not entirely besides the point because its quite possible all this force was used against an innocent man and the real suspect never found.
                              Last edited by Replacement; 29-11-2019, 10:46 AM.
                              "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

                              Comment


                              • Very well said, Replacement. Now how do we force the EPS to listen?

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