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  • #31
    Originally posted by prerunr View Post
    Originally posted by JamesL View Post
    Originally posted by RTA View Post
    What you need or want isn't what "a lot of people" need or want. And frankly, what you want is so far out of touch with reality that you shouldn't be surprised to find a lot of opposition to your idea of "different" or "more." Don't make the mistake of assuming this is because you are "thinking outside of the box." It is because you are thinking inside of a box that is 60 years old, has been falling apart for at least 20 years, and no longer meets crush limits that boxes today need in order to carry the kind of ideas and visions that will move us away from where the ideas and visions from your box has got us today.
    That paragraph, the cherry at the end of an excellent post, made me want to stand up and cheer. Well done.
    Tomorrow morning, a lot of people will need to find their way to Scotford. The day after that, a lot of people will need to find their way home from Ft Mac. And on Saturday and Sunday, a lot of people in suburbia are going to want to get to the power centers to do back-to-school shopping. Two weeks from now, a lot of people are going to need to get their kids to school, hockey, football, etc., etc. A lot of these people will not see much benefit from the LRT expansion.

    However their fuel taxes fund the road construction; their general taxes fund the LRT. So it's reasonable for them to question why the planning has to be so vast, and the committed dollars so high. There are other public transit options, and perhaps we should be leaving more room and dollars for what might be available 10 years from now. Move forward with LRT construction, yes, but with more measured scope.

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying slow down or stop LRT construction. Just that we should have intermediate targets and ensure that it's not having a negative affect. Whisking people back to the suburbs or TOD's at the end of the workday might stall downtown residential development. Making it easy for downtown residents to get to WEM for shopping and entertainment might kill the gains downtown retail and nightlife have been able to make. The trains run both ways. Just like Highway 2 takes you to both Edmonton and Calgary International airports. It's hard to be sure what the outcome with be.

    And in terms of 60 year old relics that have been falling apart for 20 years, I can't see past the boxes that supply 19th century entertainment just north and west of Borden Park. Get the horses and buggies out of town first, and then I'll be willing to listen to what you'd like to do with the airport.
    save the airport, infill the mayfair golf course.
    save the airport, infill hawrelak park.
    save the airport, infill northlands.
    save the airport, hold back downtown
    save the airport, hold back the quarters
    save the airport, hold back lrt
    save the airport...
    from a broad based city perspective, the airport is our biggest "horse and buggy" and your inability to recognize that is no reason for the rest of the city to run around in circles for another 60 years instead of moving on with moving it out of town where it belongs.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Chmilz View Post
      The best way to preserve a city is to be prepared for and brace the future, not hide behind the past. A lot of these "lots of peoples" are crazy old wankers that lust for some kind of nostalgic past. Sure, we can totally go back to the 50's, 60's, or whenever, but how does that help their children, or grandchildren, or current E-towners such as myself, my friends and family? Sure, lets forget having nanotech and lawyers and accountants and some new hotels and restaurants and clothing stores and this and that. Nobody needs those jobs, right? Why aim to get a Ferrari dealership or install bicycle lanes here when we can revert to horse and carriages instead?

      Pull your head out of the horse s--t and realize that your nostalgic longing for whatever you think was awesome back in the day is a minority view. And if you're from a small town and wish Edmonton was like that, move back to it. Edmonton is a big city with big city dreams and big city problems. It would be easier to tackle those if we didn't have small minds with drooling mouths getting in the way all the time.
      I want to get rid of the horse s--t altogether, along with the horses and carriages and horse barns and race track. I want Ferraris ripping around the Indy race track on a daily basis. Then a dealership would make sense. I want aerotech, autotech, and nanotech (if that pans out, but I still remember Novatel, so I'm skeptical).

      And don't we already have a Research Park on Parsons Road? Why isn't nanotech going in there? Isn't that why we built it?

      Despite the big city dreams, there are still a lot of people coming here with small town wants. They want the 3 bedroom + den and a back yard. If Edmonton won't provide, there are a dozen towns within commuting distance that will. Have you seen the East Vistas plan? Another town, yes, a whole new freakin town between Leduc and Edmonton. (Thank YEG for that one).

      So sprawl is going to happen whether Edmonton likes it or not. There are just too many outlying towns and cities. Maybe if we can bring them close enough together, we might be able to get buy-in on a regional transit and road authority. Yes there are costs associated with that strategy, but if it's going to happen anyway...

      Personally, I wonder about running the LRT to the VIA station and looking at heavy rail to move people in from Morninville and St. Albert, and Stony Plain and Spruce Grove. I also see the space between QE2 nb and sb and wonder why there is not an LRT line there to the airport. Maybe if we got people out of their cars, they might stop driving to Calgary.

      There is more to think about than just TOD's and nanotech.
      Trying to change the world, one mind at a time.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by kcantor View Post
        save the airport, infill the mayfair golf course.
        save the airport, infill hawrelak park.
        save the airport, infill northlands.
        save the airport, hold back downtown
        save the airport, hold back the quarters
        save the airport, hold back lrt
        save the airport...
        from a broad based city perspective, the airport is our biggest "horse and buggy" and your inability to recognize that is no reason for the rest of the city to run around in circles for another 60 years instead of moving on with moving it out of town where it belongs.
        So you prefer the idea of spending 6-10 million dollars of taxpayer money every year to keep horse barns and pony racing within waking distance of downtown?

        Are you hoping for a position on the board of Northlands or something?

        I've said all along, there are better options, imo, for the CCA than either the city or Envision have proposed. I'd like the opportunity to express them without being branded a "heretic".
        Trying to change the world, one mind at a time.

        Comment


        • #34
          Please, people, understand. I love downtown Edmonton. I've lived there. I've walked to work downtown. I recommend it highly. My daughter currently lives there and does the same as I did at her age. I like to think that my passion for downtown and transit influenced her choice. When I needed a backyard for the kids, I chose Holyrood and rode the bus downtown.

          But I've also have opportunities to fly FBO to FBO between YXD and YYC. That is the best way to get to downtown to downtown on a day trip. Not only do you save 20 minutes on the Edmonton road leg, you save 10 minutes on the Calgary leg. So small plane service to Calgary from YXD has benefits for downtown business. But anything to the main terminal at YYC will potentially serve as connector service to long haul flights out of Calgary, so I will oppose any plans along those lines.

          At the same time, I've also had to cab it from downtown to YEG. And I didn't like sticking my employer with the tab. For the same price I could rent a limo for the trip from YVR to the waterfront. As a result, there have been times that I've driven to Calgary in my own vehicle and charged my employer with the milage and time. It was a few dollars cheaper than flying out of YEG, so nobody complained. That's why I believe we need LRT service to YEG asap. Reduce the cost to downtown business of sending people out of town. Use the LRT, or at least bus service from Century Park to kill East Vistas and reduce the car traffic to YYC. I see the current strategies as having more benefit to the surrounding towns than the city proper.

          These are my experiences, observations, and opinions. If you want to call me a heretic or drooling *****, so be it. But I've worn an Oilers Jersey to the office in Calgary on a regular basis when employment opportunities took me there. I've berated Calgarians face-to-face at the water cooler on their waste management practices compared to Edmonton. They they bring up the Stampede, I bring up the Fringe and the CFR. I've been out on the front lines promoting and defending this town for years.
          Trying to change the world, one mind at a time.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by prerunr View Post
            ... I'd like the opportunity to express them without being branded a "heretic".
            disagreeing with your opinions - particularly when they are wrong - is not branding you. besides, you can't brand anything that's unknown and anonymous. imo. imo, you're not even prepared to be branded with your own opinions.
            "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by prerunr View Post
              ...

              These are my experiences, observations, and opinions. If you want to call me a heretic or drooling *****, so be it. But I've worn an Oilers Jersey to the office in Calgary on a regular basis when employment opportunities took me there. I've berated Calgarians face-to-face at the water cooler on their waste management practices compared to Edmonton. They they bring up the Stampede, I bring up the Fringe and the CFR. I've been out on the front lines promoting and defending this town for years.
              us "people, people" aren't calling you anything. just pointing out where you're wrong despite your protestations of how many "right" things you say you do. eating your veggies while dining on steak doesn't make one a vegetarian.
              Last edited by kcantor; 12-08-2010, 07:44 AM.
              "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by prerunr View Post
                Tomorrow morning, a lot of people will need to find their way to Scotford. The day after that, a lot of people will need to find their way home from Ft Mac. And on Saturday and Sunday, a lot of people in suburbia are going to want to get to the power centers to do back-to-school shopping. Two weeks from now, a lot of people are going to need to get their kids to school, hockey, football, etc., etc. A lot of these people will not see much benefit from the LRT expansion.
                That doesn't mean that 100,000 people won't see a direct daily benefit from it. Not everything can be all things to all people, but that's not a good reason to not do something.

                Plus you're also missing out on how LRT indirectly benefits these folks; LRT will help us manage the volume of traffic they have to contend with for the foreseeable future. LRT will help us produce a more compact and sustainable city, which will help keep their taxes from going out of control. It will help improve the quality of the air they breathe through lower street-level emissions. It will help keep their gas prices lower through lower demand.

                Originally posted by prerunr View Post
                However their fuel taxes fund the road construction; their general taxes fund the LRT. So it's reasonable for them to question why the planning has to be so vast, and the committed dollars so high. There are other public transit options, and perhaps we should be leaving more room and dollars for what might be available 10 years from now. Move forward with LRT construction, yes, but with more measured scope.
                The scope is pretty well measured as it is. We're not overbuilding an LRT as fast as we can, we're playing catch-up from having ignored building it for so long.

                Also, I'm not sure who "them" is that you're referring to. Most everyone I know and have talked to supports the city building more LRT, and keeping up the momentum and pace that they are at now.

                As I alluded to in another thread, you seem to be trying to create an illusion that it's a majority of citizens questioning the pace of LRT construction. But it's still just an illusion, and a thin one at that.

                Originally posted by prerunr View Post
                Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying slow down or stop LRT construction.
                Actually you kinda are. There's not many other options between building it, slowing down, or stopping it.

                Originally posted by prerunr View Post
                Just that we should have intermediate targets and ensure that it's not having a negative affect. Whisking people back to the suburbs or TOD's at the end of the workday might stall downtown residential development. Making it easy for downtown residents to get to WEM for shopping and entertainment might kill the gains downtown retail and nightlife have been able to make. The trains run both ways. Just like Highway 2 takes you to both Edmonton and Calgary International airports. It's hard to be sure what the outcome with be.
                No it's not. It's not like mass rail transit is some whiz-bang newfangled technology that hasn't been tested or proven anywhere. Rail transit has provided the backbone of major transit systems in cities of many sizes and shapes, and in some cases has done so for over a century.

                Originally posted by prerunr View Post
                And in terms of 60 year old relics that have been falling apart for 20 years, I can't see past the boxes that supply 19th century entertainment just north and west of Borden Park. Get the horses and buggies out of town first, and then I'll be willing to listen to what you'd like to do with the airport.
                Nice segue. And by that I mean, not really.
                Strathcona City Separatist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by prerunr View Post
                  If you want to call me a heretic or drooling *****, so be it.
                  Attempting to martyr yourself nullifies becoming a martyr. Get over yourself. You're not being crucified for standing up for what you believe in. You're being crucified because your arguments are terrible, nonsensical, wrong, and often not even wrong.
                  Strathcona City Separatist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I'm sure that Edmonton will continue to spend money on other transportation priorities. Once 23 Avenue and Quesnell Bridge are done, Edmonton can focus its priorities on projects on the Yellowhead (e.g. 66 Street overpass), planning for the Walterdale Bridge, or the 17th Street/Whitemud overpass.
                    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      ^ Bingo. As pointed out to WayneJ in the post just above prerunr's, saying, claiming, or otherwise suggesting or implying that the city isn't making roadwork a priority is patently and provably false.
                      Strathcona City Separatist

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        If the Provincial Government has dedicated $800 million in Green TRIP funding to the Capital Region, I'm sure that Edmonton would receive $500-$600 million of that share.

                        My thinking about this Green TRIP funding though, would it be better for Edmonton to collaborate with Leduc or St. Albert, should they pursue LRT? I know that SE and West LRT are the priority, but what happens if Capital Region municipalities start to express interest in building LRT?
                        "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The_Cat View Post
                          ... but what happens if Capital Region municipalities start to express interest in building LRT?

                          I love your sig. One of my fav movie quotes is:

                          "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow." Agent K - MIB

                          Most can't. A sad fact I must accept.
                          Trying to change the world, one mind at a time.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Most can't what? Know tomorrow? You won't if you're living in the past, that's for sure!
                            "A doctor can bury his mistakes but an architect can only advise his clients to plant vines." - Frank Lloyd Wright

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