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Air Passenger Leakage 101 - Why Edmontonians should care!

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  • kcantor
    replied
    Originally posted by kona View Post
    how about answering this? That drive number just does not make sense!
    I believe it was answered and I believe I was wrong when I posted that... Not that my positions on our airport changed as a result, they were only reinforced as a result.
    Last edited by kcantor; 23-11-2009, 09:27 AM. Reason: typo

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  • kona
    replied
    how about answering this? That drive number just does not make sense!

    Originally posted by kona View Post
    Originally posted by kcantor View Post
    thanks for your answer to my question on monday and the time and effort that is obviously going in to answering everyone's questions. several of the questions and answers to date however have mentioned 750,000 people driving to yyc every year. is that a typo being carried forward in error or is my math and conclusions out? 750,000 is more than 2,000 passengers per day and even at 2 passengers per car as far as i can determine that would account for more than 5% of all passenger car traffic between edmonton and calgary. furthermore, if 1,000 cars per day are assumed to be driving to calgary and one were to assume that the average trip being taken would be five days in length (probably low as there can't be that many one or two day trips that would justify the drive down), then at any one time there would be 5,000 cars from edmonton parked at yyc. i don't know how many park 'n fly or park and jet stalls they have but yyc itself doesn't have 5,000 parking stalls in total including both its discount parking weekly lots and its parkade. is the real number perhaps closer to 75,000 than 750,000 (which would seem to make more sense)? personally, i would never drive to yyc instead of using yeg and will actually take more time or adjust my travel dates to do that or to connect anywhere but through yyc if at all possible. although i'm sure some don't care that much one way or the other, i can't see how driving to calgary could be that much more advantageous for that many...

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  • Glenco
    replied
    Originally posted by flyeiaPR View Post
    I]

    moahunter: So the customer is to blame if YEG does not offer the connections that customers want? Pretty weak IMO - if YEG wants to be world class it has to stop the small minded view that Edmontonians are to blame for its failings, and instead offer the connections its customers demand. I have no grudge with Calgary, Nisku, or any other place, and will continue to choose the best connection regardless of who offers it. I think most Edmontonians think the same way, it doesn't make us to blame for Calgary sometimes offering a better package.
    Comments like this, which imply that is my fault, and the fault of other Edmontonians who drive, that service is better at Calgary:.[/I]
    A woman my wife works with is taking her sons to Houston over the Christmas holidays. She told my wife that to fly out of YEG would cost a thousand dollars compared to 500 going through YYC. Apparently her brother who is a travel agent booked it for her. When I showed my wife this was not true and she took this information to her colleague her reaction " well the tickets are booked now"
    Yes sometimes the customer IS TO BLAME.

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  • Marina
    replied
    Love the idea of the posters on the QE2

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  • flyeiaPR
    replied
    Responses from Peter McCart

    Peter McCart wanted to address a few of your questions in relation to the article. We look forward to your continued feedback.

    Ryan S: Just to clarify, the leakage # (21% / est. 850k ppl) is just Edmontonians who depart from Calgary, it doesn’t take into account passengers connecting in Calgary but originating in Edmonton?

    The leakage figure in question (21% / est. 850,000 people) is for drive market leakage only. Flight connection leakage accounts for roughly another 500,000 people annually. Prior to Continental launching the Houston service earlier this month, for example, Houston was our highest drive and connection leakage market via Calgary. The addition of the single daily Houston 737 flight from Edmonton will draw down Calgary’s Transborder passenger counts by over 100,000 per year.


    Rocket252: So who tells the travel agents not to promote Calgary? Is it EIA people or the customer?
    Edmontonfan: My travel agent has it on file, never to connect me through Calgary and I've told her that $ are not to be a consideration. But I think the client has to tell the agent what they do and don't want and most are not thinking about the benefits of not using Calgary.

    Ultimately, the decision to purchase a flight connection is owned by the passenger.


    BLG: Has EIA tried something like going to the major agencies and offering incentives to them?

    EIA currently has an incentive program in place with Edmonton Region travel agencies. We offer, for example, a parking incentive program for Edmonton travel agencies.


    edmonton daily photo: Just post a series of billboards down the QEII starting at the EIA and heading south.. saying.
    - You could have had your boarding pass by now
    -You could have cleared security by now
    -you could have boarded by now.
    -you would have been in the air by now
    -Beverage service would have started by now
    then you can end it with..
    You would have been in Las Vegas (or any destination that takes roughly 2 hours to get to) by now. Please fly EIA.

    This is a great suggestion. Thanks.

    Rocket252: Nice article Peter.
    While all your points are valid what about the following example:
    Say airline A puts in a new route to a city. In a week or two Airline B puts in the same route.
    Air Canada has a flight to Maui from Calgary - WestJet puts one in. Or AC has a crappy flight to LA from YEG - WestJet puts in a daily 737 - then AC upgrades to a mainline route.
    Is this the result of consumer demand or just one airline afraid to lost its market share -whatever share that may be - to the competition? How much does this factor affect routing?

    Airline strategy and response to competition is obviously also a variable in the initial route decision-making process. Ultimately, demand/profitability is the bottom line. Good examples from the last few years were Air Canada’s route additions to destinations like Hamilton and Abbotsford to compete with WestJet and ultimately found it unprofitable to the extent that AC withdrew its service.

    The_Cat: I'd be interested in seeing the stats broken down into Domestic, Transborder and International, if it's available. It looks like many of the drives to Calgary are during the winter months, although the variation is not as great during the past two years.
    It would also be interesting to see the nature of the destinations, if they are available. How many Edmonton passengers drive to Calgary to fly to Amsterdam or Frankfurt? I'm sure if it's 250-300 per week, that would justify another European destination (3X a week to start).
    With the code sharing, I'm sure that YEG could lobby AA for a flight to Dallas.

    The highest leakage is on routes where competing service doesn’t exist. An excellent example is Houston. Prior to Continental launching its Edmonton-Houston non-stop in November, Houston was EIA’s number one connection point via Calgary and number one leakage market.

    moahunter: So the customer is to blame if YEG does not offer the connections that customers want? Pretty weak IMO - if YEG wants to be world class it has to stop the small minded view that Edmontonians are to blame for its failings, and instead offer the connections its customers demand. I have no grudge with Calgary, Nisku, or any other place, and will continue to choose the best connection regardless of who offers it. I think most Edmontonians think the same way, it doesn't make us to blame for Calgary sometimes offering a better package.
    Comments like this, which imply that is my fault, and the fault of other Edmontonians who drive, that service is better at Calgary:

    The airlines know as well as we do, and as well as YYC does for that matter, that Calgary’s hub strategy doesn’t work without Edmonton. It only works the way it does because of Edmonton. Again, it’s up to consumers to send a message to the airlines by using one of our non-stop destinations. If our passengers need to make a connection, we also encourage them to make use of one other than Calgary. By connecting through places like Denver or London, there’s greater economic development potential for Edmonton than there would be if a passenger connected through Calgary. By using alternate connections, you’re helping to send a message to the airlines: don’t count on our support.

    Adam: This thread is about air passenger leakage from Edmonton to Calgary. Here's an interesting question: how much leakage goes the other way (i.e. from Calgary to Edmonton?) I'm convinced that it exists in some form. Would it not make sense for a Calgary passenger to connect here if a flight was sold out or if the timing of the flight worked out better for the individual (i.e. morning flight vs. evening flight?) Here's an example I stumbled across while perusing westjet.com for flights to Las Vegas in February: WestJet offers two daily direct flights from Las Vegas to Calgary and Edmonton has one. However, the first flight to Calgary does not leave until 19:00 and the second one leaves at 20:45. The Edmonton flight departs at 10:45. Passengers can then connect to YYC on WS302 which arrives at 17:15, a full 5 and a half hours before the first direct flight from LAS arrives in YYC. Anyone ever crunched the numbers on this one? Until they do, I won't know for certain just how bad our 750,000-850,000 QEII migrants are.

    Leakage from Calgary to Edmonton has increased steadily over the years. However, relative percentages remain lower than Edmonton’s leakage to Calgary.
    Last edited by flyeiaPR; 20-11-2009, 03:54 PM. Reason: formatting

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  • The_Cat
    replied
    The only time I recently transferred through Calgary (from LAX) was because the LAX-YEG flight was packed (long story). Otherwise, I'll transfer through the U. S. for a U. S. destination.

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  • Marina
    replied
    Excellent idea

    Me neither. Behaviour we should encourage.

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  • 24karat
    replied
    Whenever I book a flight I absolutely insist that there be no connections in YYC. I've done that for five years now.

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  • Marina
    replied
    Thanks

    Great Peter that you explain the ins and outs of this very important issue. Simple message - use our airport and we'll get more non-stop routes. The graph shows your marketing campaign to attract drivers to EIA instead of Calgary seems to be working. Spread the word everyone. Use it or lose it.
    Thanks

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  • Hilman
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam View Post
    This thread is about air passenger leakage from Edmonton to Calgary.

    Here's an interesting question: how much leakage goes the other way (i.e. from Calgary to Edmonton?)

    I'm convinced that it exists in some form. Would it not make sense for a Calgary passenger to connect here if a flight was sold out or if the timing of the flight worked out better for the individual (i.e. morning flight vs. evening flight?) Here's an example I stumbled across while perusing westjet.com for flights to Las Vegas in February:

    Westjet offers two daily direct flights from Las Vegas to Calgary and Edmonton has one. However, the first flight to Calgary does not leave until 19:00 and the second one leaves at 20:45. The Edmonton flight departs at 10:45. Passengers can then connect to YYC on WS302 which arrives at 17:15, a full 5 and a half hours before the first direct flight from LAS arrives in YYC.

    Side note, I came back tonight on the 6:45 flight and it was jam packed, as well as my departing flight on the 7th (Wednesday) at 2:30 pm. The LAS departure screen had 2 YYC-LAS flights, 3 YEG-LAS (2 WJ, 1 US Airways) and 1 YVR-LAS flight.

    Anyone ever crunched the numbers on this one? Until they do, I won't know for certain just how bad our 750,000-850,000 QEII migrants are.
    Seems Edmonton will keep the two current non-stop daily flights to LAS they currently have for the long term. February has two non-stop LAS flights per day, departing at 8:00 am and 5:45 pm, returning 10:45 am and 8:30 pm.

    Side note, my LAS-YEG flight last night at 6:45 pm was jam packed, same with the YEG-LAS flight on the 7th (Wednesday) at 2:30 pm. The LAS departure screen last night had 2 YYC-LAS flights, 3 YEG-LAS flights (2 WJ, 1 US Airways) and 1 YVR-LAS flight.
    Last edited by Hilman; 18-10-2009, 02:14 AM.

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  • RichardS
    replied
    ..they do happen...but is it due to demand, price, or the last seat available...?

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  • Titanium48
    replied
    Originally posted by rime ice View Post
    I'll give you some examples of cnx you would have never thought exist.

    SFO-YEG-LHR

    LHR-YEG-LAS.

    to mention a few.

    Bizarre but they do happen
    Bizarre? Not really. The SFO-LHR route passes almost directly over us (and Calgary for that matter). YWG might make a more logical stopover for LHR-LAS, but we aren't that far off there either.

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  • rime ice
    replied
    I'll give you some examples of cnx you would have never thought exist.

    SFO-YEG-LHR

    LHR-YEG-LAS.

    to mention a few.

    Bizarre but they do happen

    Leave a comment:


  • Adam
    replied
    Originally posted by kona View Post
    Adam I suspect the number of people driving to Edmonton from Calgary is probably close to a million!
    Not what I asked.

    My question again: How many people flying to or from Calgary connect in Edmonton prior to reaching their final destination?

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  • kona
    replied
    Originally posted by RichardS View Post
    ...I always love the "attack" comments...when I look at this many comments aren't attacking...and one you made earlier kona...well......
    ?

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