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Air Passenger Leakage 101 - Why Edmontonians should care!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by RTA View Post
    In a way, they're not wrong. By continuing to bypass our airport in favour of Calgary's, you are voting to give Calgary more flights at the expense of Edmonton. The fact that you're proud of this fact makes it worse.
    You need to stop making this an "us vs. them" argument, since whether or not people fly from Calgary or Edmonton really doesn't make a difference to the Alberta economy. Edmonton will not suffer because of this if there is adequate connections between the two cities. Everyone needs to stop thinking so narrowly, and start thinking about how we as a province compete with other large economic regions. This is where the future is heading.
    www.decl.org

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    • #62
      Originally posted by TheGreatestX View Post
      Originally posted by lat View Post
      If everyone flew to Orlando via Houston instead of Calgary, the numbers to the US would go up, telling the airlines that there is a market in Edmonton for direct flight to the US.
      Get real... Let's say we are aiming at getting a WestJet flight to Orlando. If they see high numbers of passengers originating in YEG and ending in MCO either via YYC or YYZ, that shows them Edmonton could sustain a non-stop.

      If they just see higher transborder numbers that are not on their planes, they won't know where we're going...
      That's assuming that the airlines want to provide better air service directly to Edmonton. They don't, necessarily. They want to maximize ridership while minimizing costs. Having all Edmonton passengers routing through Calgary would do just that. We, as consumers of their product, must let them know in a language that they understand, that they must serve Edmonton directly.

      And don't kid yourself, they know the general ridership numbers of other airlines and what their final destinations are. Likely not precise numbers, but accurate enough to know about a market being served by their competitors that they are not in.

      Originally posted by TheGreatestX View Post
      Originally posted by lat View Post
      If everyone from Alberta flew out of Calgary, that would be the end of it... The airlines would definitely prefer to have one hub out of Alberta instead of two. Cost savings for the airlines, but definitely not in Edmonton's best interests...
      I disagree with this as well. WestJet doesn't operate a hub system (why else would we have non-stops to Comox or Hamilton or Palm Springs?).

      We need to show WESTJET where we want to fly, showing Continental we fly to Orlando isn't going to get us a non-stop to Florida. The US carriers love their hub system. The only airline that will give us the non-stops we want is WestJet, and avoiding them isn't going to get us those non-stops.
      We have many non-stop flights from Edmonton provided by US airlines. Not sure why we wouldn't want as many choices as possible serving Edmonton directly. Westjet is one airline, we need them, AC, Continental, JAL, Lufthansa, British Airways, plus as many others as possible...

      Here are the non-stop flights, many are provided by US carriers...
      http://www.flyeia.com/fly_eia/air_service

      DESTINATIONS



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      • #63
        Originally posted by moahunter View Post
        Lat - I'm not the one blaming anyone. The people laying the blame are YEG. Their circumstance is "the fault of the airlines, or customers (going to Calgary), or... " maybe they should instead look in the mirror, and work a bit harder at wining these groups over, or adjusting to reality of Calgary as a hub, rather than whining?
        That is incredibly short-sighted and defeatist.
        I guess you're content doing the 3 hour drive to Calgary then. I refuse to do that. I have never done that and I never will.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by moahunter View Post
          Why am I being asked to? Shoppers doesn't blame me for shopping at Walmart.
          Shoppers may not, but a lot of local businesses (and people that support them) would for reasons that I hope don't need explanation.

          Originally posted by moahunter View Post
          If YEG was confident in its abilities to compete, it wouldn't be blaming me and other people in Edmonton for staying in the auto a little longer, it would instead be giving me compelling reasons to stop. Is making "it" a better airport the most compelling thing they can find? That type of line won't draw me back to Shoppers.
          I don't think it has anything to do with the confidence of YEG. Confidence doesn't attract the airline industry. Numbers do. Business cases do. Right now the number of 750,000 people driving to Calgary has a negative impact on our business case.

          I don't think you'll find too many Edmontonians that don't want their airport to succeed. The point of this article isn't to "blame," it is to explain in simple terms what needs to be done to help YEG succeed, and why it works that way.

          Originally posted by GreenSPACE View Post
          You are assuming that we need to be competing with Calgary, or that it even matters whether people are flying to and from Edmonton or Calgary to get to and from out province. If that is your assumption, then of course my comments are not relevant to you. But I choose not to think like that, as if Calgary's gain is Edmonton's loss, I don't really see how that matters at all, since we're all one big oil economy and this doesn't reflect on Edmonton's quality of life or people choosing to live here. The more mobile we can make our people within this corridor, the better it will be for all of us.
          It does matter, though, and I find it disturbing that you don't think it does, or that you believe that everything that's good for Calgary is good for all of Alberta. Flights to Calgary doesn't keep businesses in Edmonton, but it sure makes Calgary more attractive to those businesses. Lost businesses in Edmonton means lost jobs, means negative migration, means less money flowing through our city's economy. That's not good for our city, and I don't think that's good for Alberta either.

          Originally posted by GreenSPACE View Post
          You need to stop making this an "us vs. them" argument, since whether or not people fly from Calgary or Edmonton really doesn't make a difference to the Alberta economy.
          And you need to stop touting this "Alberta economy" nonsense. Alberta's economy is made up of the economies of its cities and regions. When those cities and regions suffer, the "Alberta economy" suffers.

          Originally posted by GreenSPACE View Post
          Edmonton will not suffer because of this if there is adequate connections between the two cities. Everyone needs to stop thinking so narrowly, and start thinking about how we as a province compete with other large economic regions. This is where the future is heading.
          Tell me exactly how this should work such that Edmonton and Calgary benefit equally from this Alberta economy, this large economic region. Tell me how ceding air service to Calgary will benefit Edmonton as much as it benefits Calgary?
          Last edited by RTA; 14-10-2009, 01:20 PM.
          Strathcona City Separatist

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          • #65
            Originally posted by lat View Post
            That is incredibly short-sighted and defeatist.
            I guess you're content doing the 3 hour drive to Calgary then. I refuse to do that. I have never done that and I never will.
            Did you feel the same way about the municiple airport - should Edmontonian's have cared about that? Now I'm told I "should" care about YEG, an airport that is not even in Edmonton? To be honest, I don't like people telling me what I should or shouldn't care about, period. It's a bit sad to me if a business feels it has to resort to that, rather than presenting the advantages it has. As to the reality of what YEG is, and can become, that business model is for YEG to decide, not the airlines, not customers, not people who we are told "should" care. I do think there are opportunities for YEG, but it may be if YEG doesn't improve its offering, that Calgary will become Alberta's airport with YEG a feeder for many flights. I can live with that, especially if it brings me and business conncetions we do not now have (like Asia / South Pacific). If they want to be more ambitious, and go after some of Calgary's market, that would impress me. Seems they don't have the ability / influence though.
            Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 01:36 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by moahunter View Post
              To be honest, I don't like people telling me what I should or shouldn't care about, period.
              That's what it boils down to. You're in a snit because you don't like the tone of what EIA said, logic be-damned...

              Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Way to go.

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              • #67
                moahunter.. how much do you fly?

                Anyone who travels regularly will be the first to admit that connections waste valuable time and are extreamly annoying.

                ESP when your stuck there for anything longer than 40 min.

                Direct connections are extreamly important. Buisness want them, they want their people and customers to be able to connect with ease not headake.

                EIA is providing you with the hard data as to why you should care. No where does it say "You MUST CARE" so get real. I'm an anarcist at heart. I love seeing the man get it.... this would be the last thing i would RAGE over.
                "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                  Direct connections are extreamly important. Buisness want them, they want their people and customers to be able to connect with ease not headake.
                  Which is why people are sitting in the auto an extra 2 hours. An extra connection for us in Calgary, is beneficial, even if it means more people sit longer in the auto or bus, or in the future, on HST. It is good if YEG offers more, but it is good if Calgary does also, it gives me as a customer another choice. Would it be better if that flight was closer to home? Yes. Is that always realistic? Per what the airlines are deciding, it seems not. Its up to YEG to change the way things are going, or adapt to them, not me as a customer.
                  Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 03:07 PM.

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                  • #69
                    ^ Not correct.

                    If your customer has to come to Edmonton by frst entering a hub, it doesn't matter if that hub is Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver.

                    People from China are still getting to Edmonton.. they just fly through SFO or Vancouver. Moving that hub to Calgary is of NO benifit to us whatso ever. It doesn't make air travel anymore more friendly.
                    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                      Moving that hub to Calgary is of NO benifit to us whatso ever.
                      Then why are 800,000 odd people chosing that option? I know for me personally, it is not a big sacrifice to sit a couple of extra hours in the car to get to Caglary airport versus YEG - I'll do that for a direct flight. I had a business guest fly up from Houston, and drive a rental from Calgary to visit a business in Nisku last week - its not the big deal you make it out to be. Direct flight is great, but a flight through Calgary can work to, I like having those options, if Calgary airport grows, there will be more of them, that's a benefit. Same if YEG grows.
                      Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 03:46 PM.

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                      • #71
                        I guess my choice is simple, if I *must* connect via another airport I want the one that offers me the most choices in destinations, airlines and amenenities. YYC doesn't, never will stack up. Let's use Houston as an example.....despite its unfortunate name, George W Bush offers:

                        Scheduled non-stop domestic and international service (over 170 destinations).
                        700 daily departures.
                        Service to more Mexican destinations (29) than any other US airport.
                        17 passenger airlines.

                        YYC isn't even in the same league - nowhere near. Orlando, pffft. Why confine yourself to the small number of destinations serviced by YYC if flying via IAH might save you much more money on the total vacation cost (including hotel) because of the myriad more destinations it offers.

                        And why, oh why would you think it convenient to show up at YEG an hour before flight time to catch a flight to YYC that has to arrive 2 hours ahead of trans-border departure time so you can haul your bags through customs pre-clearance there? That's convenient?

                        I don't get it, sorry. If I can't fly non-stop or at least direct from Edmonton, I want a routing at the most convenient time possible on the most comfortable aircraft possible to an airport that offers the most options, most convenience and largest array of destinations possible. That'll just never, ever be YYC, which on the big scale is, and always will be but a bit player.
                        Last edited by McBoo; 14-10-2009, 03:55 PM.
                        ... gobsmacked

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                        • #72
                          FYI

                          Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH) is named after George Herbert Walker Bush, not his son.
                          President and CEO - Airshow.

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                          • #73
                            Ah, damn.......... spoils everything *sigh*
                            ... gobsmacked

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                            • #74
                              This thread is about air passenger leakage from Edmonton to Calgary.

                              Here's an interesting question: how much leakage goes the other way (i.e. from Calgary to Edmonton?)

                              I'm convinced that it exists in some form. Would it not make sense for a Calgary passenger to connect here if a flight was sold out or if the timing of the flight worked out better for the individual (i.e. morning flight vs. evening flight?) Here's an example I stumbled across while perusing westjet.com for flights to Las Vegas in February:

                              Westjet offers two daily direct flights from Las Vegas to Calgary and Edmonton has one. However, the first flight to Calgary does not leave until 19:00 and the second one leaves at 20:45. The Edmonton flight departs at 10:45. Passengers can then connect to YYC on WS302 which arrives at 17:15, a full 5 and a half hours before the first direct flight from LAS arrives in YYC.

                              Anyone ever crunched the numbers on this one? Until they do, I won't know for certain just how bad our 750,000-850,000 QEII migrants are.

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                              • #75
                                I rather agree with McBoo. If I'm going to connect via a hub I might as well choose a first tier hub. This is why the Heathrow flight is so vital. Via London you have access to a lot of the world all via real planes. A prop going up and down and spitting you out on the tarmac in Calgary is never much fun.

                                A lot of people in Edmonton still need to be educated in regards to how much better things are at the EIA. This ain't 1995 anymore and the reasons for driving down to Calgary are becoming less and less.
                                LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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