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Air Passenger Leakage 101 - Why Edmontonians should care!

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  • #46
    ^I think they aren't listening, becasue the tone of the article is that Edmontonians who choose Calgary and the airlines that fly there ahead of YEG are costing Edmonton at the expense of Calgary. As a customer of Calgary and various other airports, which I won't be made to feel ashamed of, I don't feel that way. I feel I am benefiting Alberta regardless of which centre I fly through. If you want my business, listen to me, don't preach to me. The attempt to make me feel "guilty" for my choices, is frankly, a turn off. A better message would be what YEG is going to do to improve based on the comments of those who choose Calgary, so that Edmontonians will use the airlines that fly through it, not a message that if I don't support it, it won't improve.
    Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 09:42 AM.

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    • #47
      ^ Still doesn't answer the question.

      You just sound like someone who has made up their mind and has no intention of letting anyone sway it for any reason whatsoever, not for any reason no matter how logical.

      If you want to continue supporting Calgary at the expense of Edmonton, that's your choice (no matter how poor a choice). Just don't pretend that it doesn't impact EIA in exactly the way they are describing.
      Strathcona City Separatist

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      • #48
        Originally posted by RTA View Post
        ^ If you want to continue supporting Calgary at the expense of Edmonton, that's your choice (no matter how poor a choice). Just don't pretend that it doesn't impact EIA in exactly the way they are describing.
        But that's exactly it. The idea that if I use Calgary, it is at the expense of Edmonton. It is not neccesarily so. A strong Calgary hub, with more flight options (including Asia) will benefit all of Alberta including Edmonton, just as a strong airport in Nisku that feeds into it or other places will. The petty "its good for Calgary so bad for Edmonton", is weak, we are one Alberta.

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        • #49
          ...we are one Canada...Fly YYZ...Fly AC...

          AC's hub is Calgary...

          ...I guess it is time to move...it is good for Alberta...that misplaced sentiment is pure poppycock...without the caramel...
          President and CEO - Airshow.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by moahunter View Post
            But that's exactly it. The idea that if I use Calgary, it is at the expense of Edmonton. It is not neccesarily so. A strong Calgary hub, with more flight options (including Asia) will benefit all of Alberta including Edmonton, just as a strong airport in Nisku that feeds into it or other places will. The petty "its good for Calgary so bad for Edmonton", is weak, we are one Alberta.
            For starters, get off the "Airport in Nisku" thing. It's been done. It's as disingenuous as calling YVR the "Richmond Airport" or Pearson the "Mississauga Airport."

            Second, I get accused of wearing rose-tinted glasses sometimes, but nothing seems to compare to those you wear. Not everything that's good for Calgary is good for the rest of Alberta or Edmonton. I'm sorry that you don't recognize that we are always in competition with them for business, but that doesn't make it untrue. If anything it's that competition that makes us both stronger (which is the entire basis of our capitalist economy).

            Finally, you live in Edmonton and pay taxes into Edmonton, you are invested in this city; why wouldn't you want to support Edmonton first? That too supports Alberta, after all. Plus investing locally is what keeps our local economy moving, not Calgary. Supporting Calgary at our expense does nothing to keep business and jobs and money here. Not a thing.

            Stop thinking it's being anti-Calgary. Start looking at being pro-Edmonton.
            Strathcona City Separatist

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            • #51
              I mentioned this before in the other thread. Where do I sign up to reopen the Edmonton Municipal Airport? If I follow the logic that a strong Alberta may mean a strong Calgary with its connections, and that an airport authority should listen to customers looking for the cheapest price, then let's add convenience and a downtown locale to this. After all, those individuals fighting for the downtown airport are customers too. We should listen.

              With a strong Calgary hub benefiting all of Alberta, Edmonton wins. We all know how successful YXD was in attracting business or making Edmonton an integral part of that strong Alberta.
              Last edited by Redd Foxx; 14-10-2009, 10:08 AM. Reason: adding punchline
              happy to be the grumpy old bugger waking up the booster club!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by RTA View Post
                Second, I get accused of wearing rose-tinted glasses sometimes, but nothing seems to compare to those you wear.
                The difference RTA, is I am not "vested" in either airport or any other transport option (and most Edmontonians aren't either, judging by their choices). I will choose who offers the best flight for me and my family. I won't choose to use a connection through Vancouver ahead of one in Calgary, because it is "better for YEG" (perhaps in that case "worse for Alberta"). I don't want to get into those games of "loyalty" and I think its unreasonable to expect me or anybody else as a customer to. I'll choose the best service, when YEG offers that (and often they do), they'll get my business. More options in Calgary though, is good for me as a customer, so I will applaud it, just as I will applaud more flights from YEG. I won't be made feel to "blame" for either getting less flights though, the airports only have their own performance (including how attractive they make themselves out to be for airlines) to blame for that. Right now, if you take off the "rose-tinted glasses", you might see that Calgary airport is also improving Albertan service.
                Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 10:25 AM.

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                • #53
                  ^ That's your right as a customer, but it doesn't make it the right choice; just like your Wal-Mart analogy, you're choosing the cheapest most convenient option without consideration for the local or greater impacts. You talk about "when" YEG offers the best service, but don't want to contribute anything to make that happen; you'd rather it happen off the backs of people who do make the "fly Edmonton first" choice. I hope you don't wonder why we're all over you on this.
                  Strathcona City Separatist

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by nobleea View Post
                    EIA is just the real estate agent. the airlines are the sellers and we're the buyers.

                    the real estate agent can go on and on about how it's a great time to buy and or sell.

                    as a buyer, you can choose to drive out to the suburbs (YYC) or you can choose to get a place in a older, up and coming neighbourhood closer to town (YEG). more people that go to YYC, the more suburbs and commuting. companies will offer what people want. building in the new suburbs is easier after all. cheaper for them.

                    the more people that choose to buy closer to town (YEG), the more demand you create, the more great infill projects spring up. self fulfilling prophecy.
                    I can see how it would be cheaper for an airline to fly to US destinations from Calgary, but Asian and European destinations are closer to Edmonton. If it were really about airlines putting flights in the "cheaper suburbs" they would be looking for airports with lower costs and/or that are closer to their destinations. YEG is 150-250 km closer to major European and east Asian destinations and, while I don't know how much airports charge airlines for their services, I would be very surprised if YEG charged more than YYC. By the suburb analogy, we should still be connecting in Calgary to get to the USA, but Calgarians should be connecting here to get to Europe or east Asia.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by RTA View Post
                      ^ I hope you don't wonder why we're all over you on this.
                      I don't. I understand there is a deep connection to YEG to this board (it showed strongly in the close the Muni threads, and shows in the HSR threads). That's ok. I don't think it hurts to have discussion though, and I don't think my views are out of line, given many Edmonton people share them (also using Calgary airport when it is convenient to do so). Seems we aren't concerned about the viewpoint that what is good for Calgary airport is bad for Edmonton. No more that I will choose to use Greyhound, or Red Arrow only based on who owns them, or where they operate from. The best business, will win my business, if YEG secures Asian flights, they will get it, they may even get business from Calgary (almost certainly would if there was HSR).
                      Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 10:36 AM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lat View Post
                        If everyone flew to Orlando via Houston instead of Calgary, the numbers to the US would go up, telling the airlines that there is a market in Edmonton for direct flight to the US.
                        Get real... Let's say we are aiming at getting a WestJet flight to Orlando. If they see high numbers of passengers originating in YEG and ending in MCO either via YYC or YYZ, that shows them Edmonton could sustain a non-stop.

                        If they just see higher transborder numbers that are not on their planes, they won't know where we're going...

                        Originally posted by lat View Post
                        If everyone from Alberta flew out of Calgary, that would be the end of it... The airlines would definitely prefer to have one hub out of Alberta instead of two. Cost savings for the airlines, but definitely not in Edmonton's best interests...
                        I disagree with this as well. WestJet doesn't operate a hub system (why else would we have non-stops to Comox or Hamilton or Palm Springs?).

                        We need to show WESTJET where we want to fly, showing Continental we fly to Orlando isn't going to get us a non-stop to Florida. The US carriers love their hub system. The only airline that will give us the non-stops we want is WestJet, and avoiding them isn't going to get us those non-stops.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by moahunter View Post
                          Originally posted by RTA View Post
                          ^ I hope you don't wonder why we're all over you on this.
                          I don't.
                          Because put simply, you have said that you want YEG to offer better service, but you have also said that you don't want to do anything yourself to see that happen.
                          Strathcona City Separatist

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by moahunter View Post
                            Originally posted by RTA View Post
                            Second, I get accused of wearing rose-tinted glasses sometimes, but nothing seems to compare to those you wear.
                            The difference RTA, is I am not "vested" in either airport or any other transport option (and most Edmontonians aren't either, judging by their choices). I will choose who offers the best flight for me and my family. I won't choose to use a connection through Vancouver ahead of one in Calgary, because it is "better for YEG" (perhaps in that case "worse for Alberta"). I don't want to get into those games of "loyalty" and I think its unreasonable to expect me or anybody else as a customer to. I'll choose the best service, when YEG offers that (and often they do), they'll get my business. More options in Calgary though, is good for me as a customer, so I will applaud it, just as I will applaud more flights from YEG. I won't be made feel to "blame" for either getting less flights though, the airports only have their own performance (including how attractive they make themselves out to be for airlines) to blame for that. Right now, if you take off the "rose-tinted glasses", you might see that Calgary airport is also improving Albertan service.
                            Then you are being suckered by the airlines. Use the airport that is most convenient for you to use, EIA, and the airlines will provide service in the long run.

                            Its not about loyalty to EIA at all, its about sending the airlines a message in a language they understand; ridership numbers. That, in the long run, will provide you with better, more convenient, local air service. By supporting Calgary's airport, you are doing yourself a disservice, in the long run.

                            You are sacrificing long term gains for yourself by chasing after a few dollars savings, short term... That's a sucker in my books.

                            EIA has laid out the infrastructure for providing the service, but the airlines don't fly into an airport for its own sake, it needs PASSENGERS to make the flights worthwhile. That is where your support comes in.

                            You are blaming EIA for something that the airlines are doing.

                            Totally misguided, IMHO...

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by RTA View Post
                              Because put simply, you have said that you want YEG to offer better service, but you have also said that you don't want to do anything yourself to see that happen.
                              Why am I being asked to? Shoppers doesn't blame me for shopping at Walmart. If YEG was confident in its abilities to compete, it wouldn't be blaming me and other people in Edmonton for staying in the auto a little longer, it would instead be giving me compelling reasons to stop. Is making "it" a better airport the most compelling thing they can find? That type of line won't draw me back to Shoppers.

                              Lat - I'm not the one blaming anyone. The people laying the blame are YEG. Their circumstance is "the fault of the airlines, or customers (going to Calgary), or... " maybe they should instead look in the mirror, and work a bit harder at wining these groups over, or adjusting to reality of Calgary as a hub, rather than whining?
                              Last edited by moahunter; 14-10-2009, 12:37 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by RTA View Post
                                Originally posted by GreenSPACE View Post
                                This is a great explanation of how and why air connections and service is the way it is in Edmonton, but I fear we are all not seeing the larger picture.

                                For Alberta to compete at a national and international level for tourists, jobs, quality of life, etc, we need to be looking at the Edmonton-Calgary corridor as "mega-region", and not a "us vs. them" mentality. The future will reward those that work together, and if we want to continue to diversify Alberta's economy and potential beyond a simple oil economy, this will be key. Certainly those world cities that are part of a larger mega-region with good mass transit connections and diverse economies are the places people choose to live, do work, and visit. (see "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell)

                                I am also afraid that these numbers will be an excuse for people to not support a high-speed train link between the two cities, for certainly train travel and reducing our reliance on air travel is going to be a huge step to cutting our overall greenhouse gas emissions.
                                I'd love to know how you would propose to get all of the civic and business leaders of both Edmonton and Calgary to suddenly stop competing with each other and work together. And I'd love to know how you would market that sudden togetherness to the airlines to get them somehow benefit us both equally. And I'd love to know how both cities would be able to share equally in this new economy without one taking advantage of the other.

                                Sorry, but we are in competition with Calgary, and they are equally in competition with us. That's just how business works. All this talk about a grand unified economy is just feel-good talk.
                                You are assuming that we need to be competing with Calgary, or that it even matters whether people are flying to and from Edmonton or Calgary to get to and from out province. If that is your assumption, then of course my comments are not relevant to you. But I choose not to think like that, as if Calgary's gain is Edmonton's loss, I don't really see how that matters at all, since we're all one big oil economy and this doesn't reflect on Edmonton's quality of life or people choosing to live here. The more mobile we can make our people within this corridor, the better it will be for all of us.
                                www.decl.org

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