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Iceland has heated sidewalks, why not Edmonton?

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  • #16
    The quarters and Blacnchford are ideal areas for this as is the arena. All are looking at some form of district heating.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    • #17
      I like the idea, but the problem is most of the waste heat is sitting 5+ miles away at all the refineries so you'd need to build a hot liquid pipeline system to get it from there to where it can be used.

      BUT no reason why they couldn't use this for areas near the refineries now two good spots are Clover Bar and Beverly Bridges pains in the butt in the winter because of icing, the cost savings of clearing snow and less accidents and injuries should more than offset the price of construction and operation.

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      • #18
        ^ District heating.... well the picture is cooling but same idea.

        Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 13-12-2013, 09:50 AM.
        "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 240GLT View Post
          The idea of "waste heat" is dying anyways. As heat recovery technology and condensing boiler systems become the norm, there will be less heat to waste on heating sidewalks and such
          Fair enough...but the cost to actually heat most parking lot ramps is not that much...

          ...I get the maintenance question others asked earlier...but vs the liability and the spread of salt/sand all year?

          I know I am a bit biased as it doesn't matter how well you sweep, winter is hell for me...
          President and CEO - Airshow.

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          • #20
            ^ my gas bills beg to differ I'd have to actually go see how many BTU's it's taking to heat my ramps, but it's not cheap, I can tell you that.

            We're running a large central plant so we have the capacity, and without our ramps heated, chaos would ensue.

            The maintenance costs are quite something else though. Sidewalks would likely be less of an issue.

            The main problem is that there's no good source of "waste heat" in the area. Save for one giant heat sink, but there's already plans for that.

            In a place like Blatchford, if they install a co-gen system as part of the development then it should be economically viable.. but I'd still be wary given the infrastructure costs. Plus, there's much better use for that heat I think... such as heating buildings. Another real advantage to co-gen and the installation of absorption cooling is that the heat can be re-purposed in the summertime to make chilled water, as electrical generation will take place year round. I know of several large scale glycol heating loops under roadways that have been abandonned over the years due to being too problematic and cost prohibitive to maintain
            Last edited by 240GLT; 13-12-2013, 10:36 AM.
            Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

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            • #21
              I am totally taking on board the descriptions of how expensive and complex this would be. But, darn, as a pedestrian it would be so very nice. It would mean that I wouldn't be at the mercy of which Whyte Ave merchants actually do their walks properly. To say nothing of those patches of sidewalk that seem to belong to no one in particular.

              Also the area around the UofA Hospital (and other hospitals for all I know) is often a disgrace and there you have lots of people attempting to get around with crutches.

              At least with heated sidewalks, I could be assured that the contact between the sidewalk and my boot sole would be water and not ice.

              Eve

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              • #22
                @240...love to chat more on your experiences...

                coffee? PM me...
                President and CEO - Airshow.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Titanium48 View Post
                  ^^ Electricity generation still produces a lot of waste heat. Maybe we should be looking at building a new powerplant downtown?
                  Originally posted by 240GLT View Post
                  ^ If we had a NG powered power plant located in the vicinity that would change things somewhat.

                  But I don't think it's practical to build a new one at this point

                  I'd agree...not practical nor is it plausible...

                  Even an NG plant in an urban area takes space. One of my old clients has several in Ontario, and a couple in Ft McMoney. While they are very cool installations and not nearly the footprint of coal or nuke...they are still loud and industrial looking...

                  So...they are in places like Suncor, YYZ lands, etc...industrial only. Not going to be DT. Considering no one seriously thought of upgrading/uprating Rossdale for this...probably not going to be anywhere close...

                  ...and if my sources are correct, the geotherm and biomass planned for Blatchford are dead...
                  President and CEO - Airshow.

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                  • #24
                    Elevators create a lot of heat

                    Just saying...
                    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nobleea View Post
                      Logistically impractical/impossible, but there is a lot of waste heat generated by all the plants/refineries in and around the city.
                      And logic dictates that if we were going to install the infrastructure to make use of that waste heat, it would be far better used to heat our buildings and reduce their natural gas consumption. We don't have an ample supply of easily accessed geothermal heat like Iceland does. If we are going to heat sidewalks, it's going to be natural gas doing it, one way or another. The amount of heat required is huge, 200 btu's per square foot is the rule of thumb for snowmelt systems in parkade ramps.

                      Originally posted by RichardS
                      There isn't...the Coast uses waste heat from the boilers IIRC...
                      It wouldn't be "waste" heat. It would simply be heat. Low temperature boiler systems don't really have waste heat, other than what's going out their chimney. It's all useful energy.

                      Originally posted by RichardS
                      Fair enough...but the cost to actually heat most parking lot ramps is not that much...
                      Depends what you consider "much". Somewhere around $5 per square foot for the heating system itself (basically the pumps, pipe, control, sensors, and heat exchanger), not including ongoing utilities and maintenance. No idea how much the natural gas is for a snowmelt system, but it would vary wildly based upon how much snow fell in a season.

                      Originally posted by 240GLT
                      ^ my gas bills beg to differ I'd have to actually go see how many BTU's it's taking to heat my ramps, but it's not cheap, I can tell you that.
                      Like I said, 200 btu's per square foot is the rule of thumb for ramp snowmelt systems in our climate.
                      Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 13-12-2013, 11:05 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                        Elevators create a lot of heat

                        Just saying...
                        They don't create 120-180F degree water, which is what you need to melt snow. Ramp snowmelt systems in fact aren't even really supposed to "melt" snow, they are actually designed to heat the falling snow so rapidly that it simply evaporates. Having a wet ramp or surface is just begging for it to turn to ice. And once a snowmelt system is iced over in cold weather, it has an extremely difficult time catching up again.
                        Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 13-12-2013, 11:06 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
                          Originally posted by RichardS
                          There isn't...the Coast uses waste heat from the boilers IIRC...
                          It wouldn't be "waste" heat. It would simply be heat. Low temperature boiler systems don't really have waste heat, other than what's going out their chimney. It's all useful energy.

                          Originally posted by RichardS
                          Fair enough...but the cost to actually heat most parking lot ramps is not that much...
                          Depends what you consider "much". Somewhere around $5 per square foot for the heating system itself (basically the pumps, pipe, control, sensors, and heat exchanger), not including ongoing utilities and maintenance. No idea how much the natural gas is for a snowmelt system, but it would vary wildly based upon how much snow fell in a season.
                          Thanks Marcel. you are right that snowfall would vary your operating costs, and I am a bit guilty here of taking a farming application and scaling it up...

                          I was told the Coast used "waste heat", heat recovery, whichever, to power the sidewalk and parking ramp heat....didn't research fully so my bad...

                          ...I also have an interest as I am researching runway heat systems and some of the claims that the storage of summer heat can do the trick in our climate...not buying that...but another topic...
                          President and CEO - Airshow.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RichardS View Post
                            ...I also have an interest as I am researching runway heat systems and some of the claims that the storage of summer heat can do the trick in our climate...not buying that...but another topic...
                            I found this article on a Ground-coupled heat pump sidewalk clearing system installed in Japan. I just skimmed the article, so I don't know how feasible it is, but it might give the C2Er engineering/mechanical types something to chew on

                            From the article conclusion:
                            Originally posted by Ground Coupled Heat Pump article
                            The seasonal snowfall (snowfall from December to March) in the first snow-melting season was 745cm and the second season 507cm. The largest daily snowfall experienced was 80cm/d. Through two winters of operation, it was demonstrated that both Gaia Snow-Melting Systems have sufficient snow-melting capacity for the city. The annual power consumption was 13.6% that of the electric heating cable systems.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Marcel Petrin View Post

                              Originally posted by 240GLT
                              ^ my gas bills beg to differ I'd have to actually go see how many BTU's it's taking to heat my ramps, but it's not cheap, I can tell you that.
                              Like I said, 200 btu's per square foot is the rule of thumb for ramp snowmelt systems in our climate.
                              So based on that a quick calculation tells me that it takes roughly 300,000 BTU's to heat my ramps.
                              Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
                                Originally posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
                                Elevators create a lot of heat

                                Just saying...
                                They don't create 120-180F degree water, which is what you need to melt snow. Ramp snowmelt systems in fact aren't even really supposed to "melt" snow, they are actually designed to heat the falling snow so rapidly that it simply evaporates. Having a wet ramp or surface is just begging for it to turn to ice. And once a snowmelt system is iced over in cold weather, it has an extremely difficult time catching up again.
                                you got that right
                                Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

                                Comment

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