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  • Originally posted by MrOilers View Post
    The Democrats refused to let any Republicans testify in the House.

    Senate Republicans are calling out the sham by telling them that Democrats should've had all witnesses testify in the House already and should have brought forward a complete case to the Senate.

    Senate is supposed to look at all the evidence brought during impeachment and judge the case, not start accepting more evidence as it trickles in.
    Well obviously the Democrats in the House impeachment hearing would refuse to allow Republicans to call Joe Biden or Hunter Bide to testify. The Bidens are not on trial nor are they relevant to the what Trump and his administration did.

    Contrary to your assertions, 1/3rd of the witnesses who testified at the house hearings were selections of the Republicans. 100 Republicans could attend the hearings and many choose not to. Then some of those same absent members stormed the Skiff in a brazenly fake conspiracy expose and broke the law in doing so. Republicans, the party of law and order, really are a bunch of clowns.

    New evidence has come out after he was impeached and it is relevant unless you believe that after a criminal is charged, find out more evidence that it is inadmissible. Perry Mason wouldn't have had a plot if last minute evidence was not allowed. Many people would have been wrongly executed even well after being sent to prison when newly found evidence exonerated them, even decades after the trial.

    Also, Trump's dream team lawyers lied about the secret basement hearing room and that Republicans and the President were barred from attending. The rules of closed door hearings are common in any investigation and Grand Jury deliberations. The Democrats are using the rules that the Republicans set up years ago. The Democrats even asked Trump to come and testify back in October and Trump's lawyer refused.

    That same lawyer last night cried crocodile tears that the house hearings were unfair because Trump did not get an opportunity to testify.

    His highly paid dream team lawyers ignored the evidence, did not defend his actions but instead just whined about the process, rehashing the lame Trump talking points.

    Trump's highly paid lawyer, Pat Cipollone asserted last night asserted that Trump is "truthful and a man of his word" and demanded that Democrats publicly apologize to Trump and his family. Even Justice Pat Roberts had to admonish the Trump legal team.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 22-01-2020, 08:27 AM.
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    • Today, Trump brags that his administration has all the documents and the Democrats don't.

      Keep on bragging that you are obstructing Congress during the impeachment trial about you withholding evidence and witnesses while claiming innocence.
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      • Originally posted by MrOilers View Post
        The Democrats refused to let any Republicans testify in the House.
        That is a false claim. Several of the witnesses were Republicans. And despite Cippolone's blatant lie on the floor of the Senate, Republican congressmen were present during all witness proceedings and were able to question said witnesses.

        Senate Republicans are calling out the sham by telling them that Democrats should've had all witnesses testify in the House already and should have brought forward a complete case to the Senate.
        How could they have all witnesses testify when the President instructed the direct fact witnesses like Bolton and Pompeo to ignore subpoenas if they were sent by the House? The President has prevented those direct witnesses from testifying in any form up to this point.

        Senate is supposed to look at all the evidence brought during impeachment and judge the case, not start accepting more evidence as it trickles in.
        That may or may not be true, but the fact is that in every previous impeachment until Trump's, the White House cooperated and provided documents and witness testimony. Trump's White House completely refused to cooperate in any respect with the House's impeachment, which prevented a full airing of all the information available. Hell, Trump was bragging about it on Twitter a couple hours ago.

        Basically, you and the White House are making a circular argument that comes from and goes nowhere.

        Originally posted by MrOilers
        If that's the case at all, why are they trying to impeach him on "abuse of power" and "obstructing congress"? (neither of which are crimes, never mind impeachable articles)
        Why are you fixated on "crimes" in the criminal code sense? That's completely irrelevant, and even the Republican House witness agrees: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-goes-too-far/

        However, the second point presents a far more difficult problem for senators concerned about the interpretation of the Constitution. The White House is arguing that you cannot impeach a president without a crime.

        It is a view that is at odds with history and the purpose of the Constitution. While Framers did not want terms such as “maladministration” in the standard as dangerously too broad, they often spoke of impeachable conduct in noncriminal terms, such as Justice Joseph Story referring to “public wrongs,” “great offenses against the Constitution” or acts of “malfeasance or abuse of office.” Alexander Hamilton spoke of impeachment trials as addressing “the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust.”

        In the impeachment trials of Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, both sides accepted that the presidents had committed criminal acts.

        In this impeachment, the House has decided to go forward on the narrowest articles with the thinnest record of a presidential impeachment in history. However, many senators may be legitimately leery of buying what the White House is selling with its categorical approach. There is a vast array of harmful and corrupt acts that a president can commit outside of the criminal code.

        While I believe that articles of impeachment are ideally based on well-defined criminal conduct, I do not believe that the criminal code is the effective limit or scope of possible impeachable offenses. If some of the president’s critics are adopting a far too broad understanding of impeachable offenses, the White House is adopting a far too narrow one.

        The adoption of this interpretation would create lasting harm for the constitutional system.

        Comment


        • In addition, one of the pieces of evidence against Trump was the report that was published in just the last week that;

          The U.S. Government Accountability Office released Thursday a decision finding that the White House's Office of Management and Budget violated the law when it withheld military aid to Ukraine.

          The GAO is the supreme audit institution of the federal government of the United States. It identifies its core "mission values" as: accountability, integrity, and reliability.


          MrOilers, Trump's self appointed defender, demands that such strong evidence be inadmissible

          Why?

          What has Trump to hide after the perfect call?
          Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 22-01-2020, 04:58 PM.
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          • Here is an analogy to the whole Republican argument that the Bidens need to testify.

            This is akin to a drunk driver (Trump) who has been pulled over for speeding, weaving from one side of the road to another and driving under the influence. The Republicans are claiming that the police wrongly pulled Trump over and should have pulled over another driver that passed a minute before, stating that since he was ahead, he must have been driving faster even though the police have a record of the previous car going straight and below the speed limit.

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            • Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
              Today, Trump brags that his administration has all the documents and the Democrats don't.

              Keep on bragging that you are obstructing Congress during the impeachment trial about you withholding evidence and witnesses while claiming innocence.
              I don't think he is withholding evidence that supports his case, so it is probably more damning for him. What is he covering up, what does he not want us to know?

              Comment


              • ^ Maybe there are even more things that Trump is hiding...

                Deutsche Bank Got Millions From Russian Bank While Also Loaning Huge Sums To Donald Trump, Per ‘Forensic News’

                At about the same time it was making more than $300 million in loans to Donald Trump, Deutsche Bank was taking a $511 million deposit from a Kremlin-linked Russian bank, a new report alleges.

                https://www.inquisitr.com/5848999/de...-donald-trump/
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                • I tried to watch, but even senators are falling asleep. They need some red bull. Most people are at work, does CNN repeat.
                  I don't understand why Trump is tweeting , that he has what they need, or something like that, sthu Trump.
                  Animals are my passion.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by H.L. View Post
                    I don't understand why Trump is tweeting , that he has what they need, or something like that, sthu Trump.
                    Because Trump always tweets, haven't you figured that out yet?

                    Yesterday, as of 4:25 pm, Impeached45 sent the most tweets of his presidency at 125 and counting. The most retweets ever at 110 and counting as he implodes over his trial.


                    He also confesses his actions such as his tweet yesterday where he admits to withholding evidence or past admissions that he would accept foreign help or actually invites foreign interference from Russia, Ukraine, China or anywhere he can get help to rig the election.

                    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-01-2020, 07:50 AM.
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                    • https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/tru...ore-his-visit/

                      Just ahead of the president’s visit, however, Trump National Doral “raised the nightly rate for its least expensive rooms from $254 to $539,” which is “just under the maximum per-night rate federal government rules permit for a hotel in South Florida, and is triple the normal ‘per diem’ rate employees are supposed to follow.”
                      Remember, he's not making any money off his presidency, and donates his $400k salary... right? Nothing fishy going on here at all.
                      They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

                      Comment


                      • This one was just too, too choice...

                        Trump's complaints about the impeachment process go off the rails

                        01/23/20 12:48PM
                        By Steve Benen
                        http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...s-go-the-rails

                        Donald Trump, unable to present much of a defense of his actions, continues to whine incessantly about the impeachment process, which wouldn't be especially notable were it not for a nagging detail: his complaints are getting a little weird.

                        Take this morning's tweet, for example.
                        "The Democrat House would not give us lawyers, or not one witness, but now demand that the Republican Senate produce the witnesses that the House never sought, or even asked for? They had their chance, but pretended to rush. Most unfair & corrupt hearing in Congressional history!"
                        Let's take each of the claims one at a time.

                        * "The Democrat House would not give us lawyers." Actually, the House Democratic majority specifically extended multiple invitations to White House attorneys to participate in the impeachment process. Trump's lawyers turned down those invitations and refused to play a role in the House proceedings.

                        There are some subjective questions in the president's scandal, but this isn't one them. It's not even an obscure detail: the headline in the Washington Post last month read, "White House rejects House Democrats' invitation to participate in impeachment process as Trump focuses on friendly Senate." It really wasn't that long ago; Trump has no excuse for not knowing this.

                        * "Not one witness." Actually, not only did witnesses requested by Republicans testify, but the Democratic majority also invited White House attorneys to ask questions of witnesses.

                        * Democrats want the Senate to "produce the witnesses that the House never sought, or even asked for." Actually, at issue are witnesses Democrats did ask for, but the White House blocked their testimony.

                        * "Most unfair." To date, Trump has not pointed to any specific aspect of the House impeachment proceedings that, in reality, was unfair.

                        * "Corrupt hearing." To date, Trump has not pointed to any specific aspect of the House impeachment proceedings that, in reality, was corrupt.

                        Or put another way, Trump's tweet this morning included five claims, each of which are the opposite of the truth.

                        It's worth emphasizing that the president and his team have had months to come up with real-world examples of the House utilizing an improper process. To date, they've found nothing coherent to complain about.

                        As regular readers know, Republicans originally argued that the House impeachment process was unfair because there'd been no formal vote on the House floor to authorize the inquiry. After the House did, in fact, hold such a vote, Republicans shifted their focus, complaining that the process is unfair because there were no public impeachment committee hearings.

                        After the House did, in fact, hold extensive public impeachment committee hearings, Republicans shifted again, insisting that the process is unfair because Trump and his team were not given an opportunity to present a defense. After Trump and his team were invited to present a defense, Republicans shifted again, insisting that the process is unfair because, well, just because
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                        • GOP Rep. Matt Gaetz praised Democrats' impeachment presentation and skewered Trump's defense as looking like 'an 8th-grade book report'

                          Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida is one of President Donald Trump's most vocal defenders in Congress.



                          He has repeatedly gone to bat for the president and shielded him amid a snowballing impeachment process in which Trump was charged with abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. The president is standing trial in the Republican-controlled Senate, which is widely expected to clear him of wrongdoing.

                          But Gaetz doesn't seem impressed with Trump's defense so far.

                          After the first day of opening arguments on Wednesday, during which seven House impeachment managers — acting as prosecutors — laid out their case against the president, Gaetz told Politico they presented their case to the public as if it were "cable news," and he praised their use of multimedia.

                          Meanwhile, the defense team's case looked like "an eighth-grade book report," Gaetz told Politico. "Actually, no, I take that back," he said, adding that an eighth-grader would know how to use PowerPoint and iPads.


                          Other Republican lawmakers also offered grudging praise of the Democrats' performance.

                          Sen. John Kennedy of Louisiana told reporters during the first day of the prosecution's opening arguments that the evidence itself was news to many senators.

                          "Nine out of 10 senators will tell you they haven't read a full transcript of the proceedings in the House," Kennedy said. "And the 10th senator who says he has is lying."
                          https://www-businessinsider-com.cdn....-report-2020-1



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                          • Donald sounds like an actual Don.

                            'Take her out': Recording appears to capture Trump at private dinner saying he wants Ukraine ambassador fired
                            Trump apparently heard discussing firing Ukraine ambassador Marie Yovanovitch.

                            ​​​​​​“A recording reviewed by ABC News appears to capture President Donald Trump telling associates he wanted the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch fired while speaking at a small gathering that included Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman -- two former business associates of Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani who have since been indicted in New York.

                            The recording appears to contradict statements by President Trump and support the narrative that has been offered by Parnas during broadcast interviews in recent days. Sources familiar with the recording said the recording was made during an intimate April 30, 2018, dinner at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C.

                            Trump has said repeatedly he does not know Parnas, a Soviet-born American who has emerged as a wild card in Trump’s impeachment trial, especially in the days since Trump was impeached.

                            "Get rid of her!" is what the voice that appears to be President Trump’s is heard saying. "Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. Okay? Do it."”

                            https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/reco...ry?id=68506437

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                            • Truly...
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                              • Opening arguments by Trump's dream team defense begins with lies.

                                He states that the Democrats had no evidence and then proceeded to read from the "perfect call" transcript. Trump propagated a lie that Europe was not helping Ukraine and that Germany was doing nothing to help.

                                Here are the facts
                                Factcheck: Trump wrong on European aid to Ukraine

                                President Donald Trump wrongly said that “Europe and other nations” were “not” contributing to Ukraine, specifically calling for Germany and France to “put up money.” In fact, the European Union and European financial institutions have contributed more than $16.4 billion in grants and loans to Ukraine since 2014.


                                European countries have contributed an estimated two-thirds of all of the aid to Ukraine since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 and launched a conflict in the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine, according to Iain King, a visiting fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
                                At one point, Trump said the United States was contributing “the bulk of the money,” but also said it was “only” the U.S. contributing and that other countries were “not doing it.”

                                But other countries are doing it, and the U.S. isn’t even the majority contributor of total official development assistance.

                                According to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, EU institutions top the OECD’s list of the top 10 donors of official development assistance to Ukraine, with $425.2 million contributed on average for 2016-2017. The U.S. was second with $204.4 million in assistance, closely followed by Germany, which contributed $189.8 million on its own, in addition to contributions it would have made through the European Union.
                                https://amp-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproj...F4178935002%2F

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