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  • Rural Crime in Alberta

    Sad but times are changing in rural Alberta...

    Interesting comment in one article about 'not being able to arrest their way out of the situation'. I think that's a good attitude. Prevention seems better than putting more people in prison and setting them up as permanently unemployable - which of course means that they end up turning to crime once out. I'm not sure what the better approach would be but it's not like there's a lot of evidence that the incredibly severe penalties used in past ages ever stopped the crimes - may in fact have made them even more violent.


    Rural crime has communities taking matters into their own hands

    Catherine Griwkowsky, Edmonton Journal, January 28, 2018

    The days of waiting for the RCMP to be guardians and saviours are over in rural Alberta.

    In Smoky Lake, Trevor Tychkowsky, president of the Alberta Provincial Rural Crime Watch Association, said more and more farmers are installing security systems and locking their doors.

    “The days of having our places kept open and keys in vehicles, those days are done,” said Tychkowsky. “Criminals have come to figure that stuff out.”

    As theft has steadily increased in Alberta, more and more security systems are being installed on rural properties, he added.

    “That was unheard of before. It was pretty safe to have your toys and tractors with keys sitting right in them. Not anymore. That can’t happen,” said Tychkowsky.

    ...
    An Integrated Crime Reduction unit was formed to tackle repeat offenders. In one case in 2017, RCMP arrested three people police say were linked to 300 calls for service before they were finally nabbed.
    ...

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...heir-own-hands
    Alberta RCMP changing tactics to address rural crime: commanding officer
    By Sarah Kraus, Global News, December 26, 2017


    It’s been called an epidemic and between the home invasions, robberies, ATM grabs, gas and dash’s and property thefts, rural Alberta had more than it’s share of crime in 2017.

    “There’s normally a small number of people that are responsible for a large portion of the crime that occurs within our respective communities,” Shean said.
    He said he is implementing an idea he’s used successfully in eastern Canada, right here in Alberta.

    To start with, he’s investing more into the intelligence division.

    “Be it property crime, and who’s impacting us there, or be it the more sophisticated organized crime that affects us here in the province, I really feel you can be innovative in how you attack crime, but first you need to understand it,” Shean said.

    ...
    “We’re already seeing short-term results, but it’s going to take a little longer.”

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3926191/a...nding-officer/



    What's growing in rural Alberta? Rural crime, say residents visiting legislature

    Emma Graney, Edmonton Journal, November 27, 2017

    Mabel Hamilton used to talk to her neighbours about the weather. Now, conversations are all about local crime.

    Her Innisfail-area home has been robbed twice over the past year, and two trucks stolen. Her dogs were able to thwart another pair of attempted robberies, scaring off the culprits as they tried to break in.

    Hamilton and her husband are ranchers. They’ve been home each time.

    “To be that bold — that’s the part that amazes me. We’re in the barn and they’re trying to get into our house,” Hamilton said Monday.

    She was one of more than 100 rural Albertans who descended on the legislature to raise their concerns about what Hamilton called “rampant” crime in their communities.

    Allan Erickson was another. He and his wife live just outside Spruce View, around 50 km southwest of Red Deer.

    Their home was robbed twice within three days this summer.

    Like Hamilton, Erickson said the constant topic of conversation in the coffee shop and at work these days is crime — who was broken into, whose vehicle was stolen.

    “We’re having a hard time understanding what’s being done about it. It’s just not working. It’s epidemic proportions,” Erickson said.

    ..."

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ng-legislature

  • #2
    It's been like this for awhile now. It doesn't get noticed because out of sight, out of mind.
    President and CEO - Airshow.

    Comment


    • #3
      It has gotten much worse though. People drive on your property like its common land, or a park!
      Animals are my passion.

      Comment


      • #4
        i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

        Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

        There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.

        Comment


        • #5
          What is the property crime rate in the US where states have Castle Doctrine ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gwill211 View Post
            i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

            Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

            There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.
            Oh right, like the case in sask, where they had a gun, and they were drunk, and they tried to steal, bloody saints!
            Not all people living in the country are red necks, just like all city dwellers are not uppity little lefties.
            Last edited by H.L.; 13-02-2018, 07:42 PM.
            Animals are my passion.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
              What is the property crime rate in the US where states have Castle Doctrine ?
              I actually saw stats somewhere and it didn't make things any better

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by H.L. View Post
                Originally posted by gwill211 View Post
                i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

                Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

                There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.
                Oh right, like the case in sask, where they had a gun, and they were drunk, and they tried to steal, bloody saints!
                I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

                It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

                Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

                The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

                Edited: here is the link

                https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by gwill211 View Post
                  Originally posted by H.L. View Post
                  Originally posted by gwill211 View Post
                  i hate that the rural folk make it about them when crime in the city is as bad or worst. I had my house robbed once and the police couldn't be bothered to show up for 5 hours. I had to clear the house myself to make sure no one was in it still.

                  Worst part yet is with the trial in sask youve got the red neck rural folk claiming theyll shoot anyone on site on their properties.

                  There is definitely a worthy discussion to give property owners better rights to defend their homes but that won't be happening now as per a recent liberal release.
                  Oh right, like the case in sask, where they had a gun, and they were drunk, and they tried to steal, bloody saints!
                  I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

                  It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

                  Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

                  The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

                  Edited: here is the link

                  https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570
                  I've never heard either say they have it better or worse. I think you should be able to defend yourself from drunken punks, so if anyone broke into our house and hurt my animals or my family, I have a baseball bat, and I would use it!
                  Animals are my passion.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I’d characterize the history as the rural people knowing they had it better than the cities. However now their situations are becoming as bad as the cities and worse in some ways such as; if they need help, it’s simply not going to be coming.

                    For a few years now there have been reports of acreage breakins being on the rise because thieves feel quite safe breaking in to residences when the owner is out.




                    As an aside, I’ve posted on a couple other forum’s threads about searching for friendly private property signs (which don’t seem to exist for sale) for out at our cabin. It’s amazing how hostile many, many posters are about anyone coming on to their land. There’s many posts on shooting anyone that steps on their property. Mostly bluster by there are a lot of crazy people out there. I however don’t want to put up the rather hostile sounding “No Trespassing” signs.

                    Here’s some quick grabs of my previous conversation on “polite” / friendly private property signage:


                    Member # Posted: 2 Mar 2015 22:11 - Edited by: KinAlberta
                    Reply Quote

                    Well one thing in Canada I'd guess is that there's a bit of tradition of people moving freely about on property since so much of it was uninhabited or in the case of natives and early pioneers they likely went anywhere they desired. No harm no foul. Still, a few No Trespassing signs seem warranted.

                    I'd like to know what conservation programs you're involved in - ...
                    The Use Respect Program

                    Use RespectThe Use Respect program is an initiative of Alberta Environment and Sustainable Resource Development and the Alberta Conservation Association. Its purpose is to build awareness of the rights and responsibilities of recreationists, agricultural leaseholders, and landowners, particularly as they pertain to recreational access to lands.

                    http://mywildalberta.com/Hunting/LandAccess.aspx


                    Here's the best sign I've seen so far:


                    source:
                    http://www.liska.ca/2014/06/
                    "50% of the Bruce still crosses private property. Generous land owners allow passage for travelers, so we are careful to respect their privacy and their property."


                    Page 4 of this is interesting - orange paint on fence posts

                    http://macdnet.org/WY%20Fence%20Guide_FINAL.pdf

                    # Posted: 26 Jun 2015 03:13
                    Reply Quote

                    The thing is, why does anyone care that someone is walking uninvited on their property? We have.... lakefront with a beautiful creek flowing through it and have always had people stop their boats and step ashore. Families from the very close by RV resort regularly walked onto our property to see the creek with all its wildlife. We've always been totally fine with that. Didn't care for any trash people left but that was very rare. Bottom line was that people were just wanting to see some nature and they weren't out to rob us or anything like that. And signs will never stop those that come to steal.
                    Originally posted by KinAlberta
                    In my case I don't want to allow any hunting or fires, but don't mind people hiking at their own risk.

                    Just got a call from a neighbour out there. They found a hind end of a moose that was shot and butchered (leaving two younger moose behind) on our property. We had an old barbed wire gate that was down and people were ATVing through it. The No Trespassing sign a hundred feet away apparently didn't deter them.

                    Neighbour isn't impressed either that people are shooting a few thousand feet from their subdivision.

                    Modifying that sign I posted further up this thread I may get the following signs made up:



                    NO FIRES - NO HUNTING

                    PRIVATE PROPERTY

                    FOR HIKING ONLY at ONE'S OWN RISK
                    ALL OTHER USES PROHIBITED

                    Well, it seems that the sign images are no fixed in a PDF


                    Zoom in on these links for good examples:

                    Scroll down first:
                    http://www.liska.ca/2014/06/

                    https://justinpluslauren.com/bruce-trail-niagara-falls/


                    Montana too

                    In Idaho, Orange Paint Means 'No Trespassing'

                    Did you know that in Idaho, the color orange means “No Trespassing” regardless of whether or not there is a posted sign?

                    "If you come across fence posts, with the top 18 inches or more painted orange, you should get out. You’re on private property and they don’t want you there."
                    I’ve lived in Idaho for most of my life and had no idea, uniI I saw this information about states that use various paint colors to identify private property lines. In Texas, they use purple. In Idaho, orange is the color that means “Keep out!”

                    ...


                    http://kezj.com/in-idaho-orange-pain...o-trespassing/

                    What Do You Do When You See This Purple Paint In Montana?

                    http://971kissfm.com/what-do-you-do-...nt-in-montana/
                    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018, 03:19 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's too bad there are not equal protests out there supporting the farmer. All that's going to happen now is policy is going to change because of these vocal minorities.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
                        It's too bad there are not equal protests out there supporting the farmer. All that's going to happen now is policy is going to change because of these vocal minorities.
                        That’s a court case - over an issue that will forever be contentious no matter what the outcome. (Remember Weibo Ludwig and the common sentiment that he was in the wrong in that case. Maybe because people didn’t like him. I don’t know if he was even charged.) Anytime any stranger is shot on someone’s property a claim can be made that it was self-defence. Actually not even with strangers. I could imagine that a lot of seemingly self-defense killings might actually outright premeditated staged murders where the victim is lured to a house or property and then off’d.

                        As for protests, read the article in my first post. The farmers are already protesting
                        Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018, 07:34 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Some legal basics:

                          trespassing, trespass, edmonton

                          http://www.slsedmonton.com/trespass/




                          Rights of hunters and landowners - The Law - The Western Producer

                          https://www.producer.com/2002/10/rig...wners-the-law/
                          Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018, 07:57 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
                            It's too bad there are not equal protests out there supporting the farmer. All that's going to happen now is policy is going to change because of these vocal minorities.
                            Of course, and they can go on his land, do what they want...
                            Animals are my passion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gwill211 View Post

                              I'll share a good thread later from a lawyer who broke down the facts as presented in the case. He doesnt say someone is guilty or not guilty but touches upon the facts as accepted by yhe jury.

                              It's a pretty crazy sequence of events that any lawyer would laugh at... but it was accepted as facts in the trial.

                              Regardless of that trial rural crime or crime in the city is an issue... hate to say it but many parts of the city are worst then in the country.

                              The rural folk like to make themselves out to be victims as though people in the city have it easy.

                              Edited: here is the link

                              https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...1&id=514000570
                              I was wondering how fast the unfortunate events in Saskatchewan would become the theme. 4 posts. The conversation is not about the Stanley verdict, but more about crime in general.

                              I could share a lot of other facebook links too, it doesn't mean anything else other than one's perspective. There are posts flying around from Native Canadians saying things like it is time to have the community grow up. OK. Here are the key "facts" as I see it. A) no one posting was actually a juror. B) no one posting was either counsel. C) No one posting was the judge. If you weren't in the trial, then you don't know.

                              To your points specifically, I don't see anywhere a conversation saying rural folks have it "worse". In fact, I see many posts saying they had it "better" for years. Low crime was an attractive piece of the rural lore. However, the spike in rural crime is alarming. If Edmonton had the same spike (as represented per capita), there would be all kinds of uproar. Yes, city crime is still "worse", if you can call it that. No rural person I know thinks people in the city "have it easy", to quote you.

                              When it comes to home defense, especially with guns, I will tell you that I have had far scarier conversations with urban dwellers when it comes to "home defenders" (aka shotguns or handguns).

                              The crime escalation out my way is easily 90-99% urbanites coming out for a quick steal in an area where they think no one will notice. In the city, odds of being noticed are greater. Now, I see homes like mine investing in CCTV, alarms, etc. That was not even a thought 10 years ago. Again, it isn't that people out here have it worse, it is the geometric escalation in crime.

                              As for the inevitable race conversation that will come up now that the Stanley piece was brought up, out my way, the property crime I see is overwhelmingly perpetrated by Caucasians. It aligns to the demographics of the area, and of Edmonton. However, on a personal note, the issues I've had are from rather diverse backgrounds. In short, a jerk is a jerk, no matter the skin tone.

                              ...and as for the lawyers "laughing", well, anecdotally my wife and her law partners, associates, peers, etc are NOT laughing. This discussion is quite serious, and the rhetoric spewed on social media and traditional media is as concerning as the story itself.

                              Originally posted by H.L
                              [It has gotten much worse though. People drive on your property like its common land, or a park!
                              This is the biggest issue. I have people using my driveway as a racetrack, driving all over fields destroying crops, road poaching 3 moose, and the most amazing...a group of Edmonton campers deciding that my hay field was a great campground. When I noticed smoke coming from my north quarter section, I thought there was a forest fire (this was in 2015 during the huge drought), so I was worried and rushed out. I ended up upon a group of 20 or so campers, all set up and having a bonfire surrounded by tinder dry alfalfa, and they started threatening me when I asked them what they were doing. All were from Edmonton. It was a rather diverse group of people that normally trespass to get onto the NS River, but I guess that route was full of other tresspassers. I now have the field gated off.

                              KC, to your point, and why I bring up the trespassing on my place, it is about your liability more than it is about some vague aspect of freedom of movement. As noted above, if that camping expedition caused a forest fire, I would have to then prove that I didn't allow the camping and fire to absolve me of any responsibility in the subsequent fire. Also, there is a large spread of pathogens like Clubroot that is devastating to agriculture. One person 4X4-ing on land will bring the dirtborne spores onto uninfected land. Companies and farmers spend tons of $$$ disinfecting equipment, only to have it spread by people looking for free trails.

                              The best way is to actually post signs that say No hunting or fishing without permission. Co-Op sells these. I have several on my place. No Trespassing is a bit of a given, but you should put a couple up anyway. No Trespassing is not hostile, but the juvenile "This property is protected by Smith and Wesson" or "trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" are just plain stupid. ...and as for the bravado of internet cowboys that say they would shoot someone on their land on sight, they wouldn't. It takes a lot to take a life, let alone a human life. The military spends years stripping down your ability to see the figure in your sights as a person with a family, rather than just a "target". I've heard the same bravado before, and not one person who has said that resorts to shooting someone when the trespassing happens. Not one. I actually have more issues with out of area trespassers (usually city dwellers looking for a hidden place to be a-holes) threatening me with being shot....that and poachers.
                              President and CEO - Airshow.

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