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  • Actually, I don't support Pegida.
    I just don't think that it's helpful to dismiss anyone who sympathizes with them as Hateful Ignorant Nazis. They are real people with real and imagined fears that need to be heard, and they need to be addressed based on what they actually say, not with prejudice based on the criminal record of one guy, or assuming they're all far-right goons because a few of those people hang around (and according to Der Spiegel, some of them have left the movement because it was intentionally non-racist and non-violent)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by highlander View Post
      Actually, I don't support Pegida.
      I just don't think that it's helpful to dismiss anyone who sympathizes with them as Hateful Ignorant Nazis. They are real people with real and imagined fears that need to be heard, and they need to be addressed based on what they actually say, not with prejudice based on the criminal record of one guy, or assuming they're all far-right goons because a few of those people hang around (and according to Der Spiegel, some of them have left the movement because it was intentionally non-racist and non-violent)
      Well no, I don't have the patience to be informed by the likes of Lutz Bachmann and his ilk nor heed the rationalizations and lies that they spread.

      Amazing really that you're now lobbing "prejudiced" at me for not being supportive, or open to the ideas of a hate filled, insular faction that most of the world views as an extreme right wing network.

      No, they don't need to be heard, at all, its best to keep a fringe faction like this very opposed and marginal as they are at best dangerous if allowed to be anything else.
      Germany, as much as any country on Earth being firmly aware of what seeds of hate planting breeds.

      Insular and divisive interests should not be given the respect of taking their message seriously as if they communicate legitimate interests, respect, concern, and path.

      If you wanted to argue issues facing Germany through such things as immigration and policy that's one thing, but for another thread. If you want to argue Pegida being a legitimate messenger of these concerns I won't entertain that view. As the vast majority of Germans won't.
      Last edited by Replacement; 14-01-2015, 12:49 PM.
      "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

      Comment


      • Yes.
        Prejudice.
        It works like this:
        He is Muslim/Christian/White/Turkish/Jewish/Liberal/Conservative/Gay/immigrant/poor/rich and/or has a criminal record/a tatoo/associates who are mean/been called names by someone in power
        so I don't have to actually listen to him/get to know him before I classify him as a persona non grata.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Replacement View Post
          Originally posted by highlander View Post
          Actually, I don't support Pegida.
          I just don't think that it's helpful to dismiss anyone who sympathizes with them as Hateful Ignorant Nazis. They are real people with real and imagined fears that need to be heard, and they need to be addressed based on what they actually say, not with prejudice based on the criminal record of one guy, or assuming they're all far-right goons because a few of those people hang around (and according to Der Spiegel, some of them have left the movement because it was intentionally non-racist and non-violent)
          Well no, I don't have the patience to be informed by the likes of Lutz Bachmann and his ilk nor heed the rationalizations and lies that they spread.

          Amazing really that you're now lobbing "prejudiced" at me for not being supportive, or open to the ideas of a hate filled, insular faction that most of the world views as an extreme right wing network.

          No, they don't need to be heard, at all, its best to keep a fringe faction like this very opposed and marginal as they are at best dangerous if allowed to be anything else.
          Germany, as much as any country on Earth being firmly aware of what seeds of hate planting breeds.

          Insular and divisive interests should not be given the respect of taking their message seriously as if they communicate legitimate interests, respect, concern, and path.

          If you wanted to argue issues facing Germany through such things as immigration and policy that's one thing, but for another thread. If you want to argue Pegida being a legitimate messenger of these concerns I won't entertain that view. As the vast majority of Germans won't.
          I think you'r saying that you basically don't want to negotiate with terrorists or extremists.

          I think there may be times that that is the appropriate response (to ostracize or exterminate) but most of the time society should encourage discussion and debate and attempt to understand other positions even when they seem abhorent. how do you make peace otherwise? ...And isn't that kinda behind the whole freedom of speech thing?

          Comment


          • KC its really quite simple that I don't go searching for a path from a particular faction that doesn't really have any. As I've stated already Pegida and its limited followers stem from a City Dresden, torn apart from the worst firestorm bombing and then from Communism and now from uncertain place in the New Germany. A place that has been ripped apart several ways and is just finding its way these past few decades.

            Indeed these peoples are just getting used to democracy, they shouldn't be seen to be leading the way in democracy.

            As far as the lack of credibility afforded Pegida again its important to note that what they are arguing for is largely a non starter for Germany a country that has taken a path for the greater part of a century to not again lend an ear to such misgivings. German people are preprepared to listen to insular and decisive messages in the present world that infer who is, and isn't German or who should be.
            I'm no more inclined to heed Pegida, or right wingnut parties than I would be to the PQ and their inane ramblings about Quebecois and immigrants votes.

            In short some factions don't deserve to be listened to. Should I also heed Marine Le Pen's intolerant advice in France? Of course not.

            Making decisions on what sources are credible in the world has nothing to do with freedom of speech. That these individuals can state their positions is freedom of speech. It doesn't behold people to have to heed it or take is seriously. Critique and saying no is of course also evidence of freedom of speech.

            The vast majority of Germans have said no to Pegida, as I do. That is a democratic freedom.
            Last edited by Replacement; 14-01-2015, 02:03 PM.
            "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by highlander View Post
              Yes.
              Prejudice.
              It works like this:
              He is Muslim/Christian/White/Turkish/Jewish/Liberal/Conservative/Gay/immigrant/poor/rich and/or has a criminal record/a tatoo/associates who are mean/been called names by someone in power
              so I don't have to actually listen to him/get to know him before I classify him as a persona non grata.
              What a specious and spurious invocation.

              Should I also heed neo-Nazis because to not do so is indicative of your version of prejudice.

              Should I heed Hooligans version of the reasons for social unrest?

              I'll discern and pick what are valid sources of my enlightenment and information thank you.


              You could stop, or continue I guess.
              Last edited by Replacement; 14-01-2015, 02:04 PM.
              "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

              Comment


              • Hooligans is as hooligans does, I suppose. Likewise Neo-Nazis.

                I was merely unaware that being conservative and at a political rally was enough to qualify to be tarred by that brush.

                That's all.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by highlander View Post
                  Hooligans is as hooligans does, I suppose. Likewise Neo-Nazis.

                  I was merely unaware that being conservative and at a political rally was enough to qualify to be tarred by that brush.

                  That's all.
                  First of all a huge difference between being conservative and being extreme right wing. Although you've attempted to minimize concerns with Pegida at every turn.

                  Its your seeming perspective that, I, or every Chancellor in Germany in recent memory are assumptively tarring and not giving Pegida a fair shake and that's all.

                  Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying but you seem to have ignored any refutation of Pegida as if it is assumptive, prejudiced, invalid. I find that a very curious and untenable position. Merkel particularly is quite possibly the best leader in the world and Germany is lucky to have her. Pegida's position is to disrespect anything she, or any disparate voice, or media has to say and to depict her in veil and shroud. How open minded.

                  I've taken information on Pegida in, researched it, and developed my view. Before we exchanged first words on this.

                  Put it this way. People can march with people and feel it out but if you looked left, looked right, and knew that some of the people in that march, and maybe even a considerable faction of them were people predisposed to anger, or Soccer hooligans, or criminals, or substance abusers, or haters would you be inclined to continue to march to their beat holding hands?

                  My decision would be no. But I'm not predisposed to be there in the first place.
                  Last edited by Replacement; 14-01-2015, 02:56 PM.
                  "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

                  Comment


                  • Interesting parallel here - Freedom of expression of sorts vs oppression or insult

                    P.K. Subban blackface portrayal denounced by Montreal artists
                    Open letter by Diversité Artistique Montréal signed by long list of artists, theatre groups
                    Jan 14, 2015

                    excerpt:
                    Last month, a white actor in the Théâtre du Rideau Vert’s annual year-end production had his face painted black to portray the famous Canadiens defenceman.

                    Quincy Armorer, artistic director at the Black Theatre Workshop, is among those who signed the letter to Théâtre du Rideau Vert.

                    “I think it’s not so much about pointing fingers at any particular organization or person who is doing it. I think we’re just calling for the importance of a discussion, and why the practice is outdated and really needs to stop,” Armorer told CBC Radio's Daybreak Montreal.

                    “People have a choice to use this practice that is rooted in racism, or they have a choice to not use it. ...”

                    ...
                    ""There will not be any more black characters. It's over," Filiatrault said.

                    "Either people do not have a sense of humour, or I am too old."

                    She said didn't hire a black actor to play Subban for 12 seconds in her year-end show because her theatre couldn't afford it. ..."


                    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...ists-1.2900288

                    Comment


                    • One point is that Muslim extremists/terrorists have waged a jihad against all they perceive as being against Islam. It might not be the war your grandfather/father fought in but it is a war. It may be a religious war but it is a force to be reckoned with. It still has to be stopped.
                      Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

                      Comment


                      • France responds to attack on Freedom of Speech by going after freely speaking people.

                        The scale of security measures is raising questions in some quarters about whether some freedoms will be impinged upon.

                        At least 54 people were arrested for hate speech or other acts insulting religious faiths, or for cheering the men who carried out the attacks.

                        http://news.yahoo.com/charlie-hebdo-...080255447.html
                        Where is the line drawn? According to Wikipedia, hate speech laws in France:

                        The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because he or she has a handicap.
                        Would not the cartoons fail this test? Yet they are held up as free speech while other people are arrested for speech, not actions, just speech.

                        How free is free and what exactly constitutes speech?

                        Comment


                        • ^They are more than likely just trying to de-escalate tension. Arrest people, hold them for as long as they can without charging them then let them go. What they don't want right now is riots in the streets.
                          Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

                          Comment


                          • Perhaps but it's still an awfully odd way to demonstrate for free speech.

                            Comment


                            • And now we hear from the radicals on the other side.

                              Muslim-Owned Shops In Birmingham Were Attacked With Guns And Hammers

                              “People are concerned. There is a level of anxiety and fear. Some people say it’s just one of those things that we have to get used to. But others say: ‘Perhaps I should move to another country,’ and that is quite shocking to me,”

                              http://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarr...-with-guns-and

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