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  • Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Supernatural, meaning outside of the natural world? Nope.

    Spent 12 years in religious school, went to church, church camp. Came to the realization one day that it was all pretty much a fairytale

    If there's an all loving god then how can he allow babies to be born so terribly deforemed that they die within minutes? Or, using a recent case, allows a father to strike his two young sons across the neck with a hatchet and then set fire to the house? Or permit a country that claims to be a leader in the world to drop napalm on civilians as America did during Vietnam? There was a plane crash off Africa a few years ago where one person survived and they thanked god for saving them. Was everyone else on that plane so evil that they didn't deserve to be saved as well or was it just random chance that this one person survived?

    Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum recently claimed that if a girl or woman get's pregnant from a rape that it's a gift from god. If that's how your god hands out gifts I'll pass, thanks.
    Ah, yes. The classic reason for denying God.

    Let me explain this to you. God did not design the world to be what it is today. You may be familiar with the story of the Garden of Eden. The garden of Eden was not just a place on earth, it was the entire earth. It was created perfect, without fear, pain or sorrow.

    When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit (which is probably symbolic for forbidden knowledge) God cursed the ground (the reason you have weeds in your garden) and punished Eve with pain during childbirth, and Adam with the requirement to work for his food. Everything that is not perfect about this world is a result of sin that was allowed to come in. Every disease and deformity. Every pain and heartache. Even physical death is a result of sin.

    But God has promised that he will restore Earth to perfection the way it was, and allow us to live there in "God's rest". The term "God's rest" is what we long for. That will be a time when we no longer have to work in the fields to grow our food and we will no longer have to suffer under the burdens of this cursed earth. There will be no more tears, no more pain and no more suffering of any kind.

    So yes, the current earth is not perfect. But it's not the way God designed it. It is a result of sin. So if you want to be bitter about the world we live in, don't blame God. Blame sin. And remember that this is all just temporary because there is a much better world in our future.

    Comment


    • It's sin, as you call it, to give people free will and then put something desireable within their reach and punish them when they try to get it. If you were doing this to a small child, offering them a cookie and then spanking them when they try to get it I'd think you had a sadistic streak to you.

      Besides, if god is all powerful how did the serpent get into the garden in the first place? If god let him in to tempt Eve then he's doubly sadistic. If she ahd turned down the serpent would god have upped the ante again? It sounds to me like your god just likes to see his creations fail.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Vincent View Post
        Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
        Supernatural, meaning outside of the natural world? Nope.

        Spent 12 years in religious school, went to church, church camp. Came to the realization one day that it was all pretty much a fairytale

        If there's an all loving god then how can he allow babies to be born so terribly deforemed that they die within minutes? Or, using a recent case, allows a father to strike his two young sons across the neck with a hatchet and then set fire to the house? Or permit a country that claims to be a leader in the world to drop napalm on civilians as America did during Vietnam? There was a plane crash off Africa a few years ago where one person survived and they thanked god for saving them. Was everyone else on that plane so evil that they didn't deserve to be saved as well or was it just random chance that this one person survived?

        Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum recently claimed that if a girl or woman get's pregnant from a rape that it's a gift from god. If that's how your god hands out gifts I'll pass, thanks.
        Ah, yes. The classic reason for denying God.

        Let me explain this to you. God did not design the world to be what it is today. You may be familiar with the story of the Garden of Eden. The garden of Eden was not just a place on earth, it was the entire earth. It was created perfect, without fear, pain or sorrow.

        When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit (which is probably symbolic for forbidden knowledge) God cursed the ground (the reason you have weeds in your garden) and punished Eve with pain during childbirth, and Adam with the requirement to work for his food. Everything that is not perfect about this world is a result of sin that was allowed to come in. Every disease and deformity. Every pain and heartache. Even physical death is a result of sin.

        But God has promised that he will restore Earth to perfection the way it was, and allow us to live there in "God's rest". The term "God's rest" is what we long for. That will be a time when we no longer have to work in the fields to grow our food and we will no longer have to suffer under the burdens of this cursed earth. There will be no more tears, no more pain and no more suffering of any kind.

        So yes, the current earth is not perfect. But it's not the way God designed it. It is a result of sin. So if you want to be bitter about the world we live in, don't blame God. Blame sin. And remember that this is all just temporary because there is a much better world in our future.
        oh, well... since you say so...

        Comment


        • Wow
          It's sin, as you call it, to give people free will and then put something desireable within their reach and punish them when they try to get it. If you were doing this to a small child, offering them a cookie and then spanking them when they try to get it
          Sorry but as I read your comment it seems you are comparing a cookie to dropping napalm on civilians and atrocities far greater.

          When the conversation gets out of the Extreme ends of the pool maybe I'll rejoin the conversation.

          Tom

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lat View Post
            oh, well... since you say so...
            Obviously I'm giving you the Biblical perspective. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air or my own imagination. If you don't understand the world you live in then the Bible can explain it to you. Whether you choose to accept that explanation is entirely up to you.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
              It's sin, as you call it, to give people free will and then put something desireable within their reach and punish them when they try to get it. If you were doing this to a small child, offering them a cookie and then spanking them when they try to get it I'd think you had a sadistic streak to you.

              Besides, if god is all powerful how did the serpent get into the garden in the first place? If god let him in to tempt Eve then he's doubly sadistic. If she ahd turned down the serpent would god have upped the ante again? It sounds to me like your god just likes to see his creations fail.
              It's all part of God's plan. Create a people with free will. Allow sin to tempt them away. If there is no temptation away from God, then there is no choice. In this way God will know that those he ends up with will be those who chose Him and truly love Him.

              If you are choosing a girlfriend, don't you also want her to choose you back?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                Supernatural, meaning outside of the natural world? Nope.

                Spent 12 years in religious school, went to church, church camp. Came to the realization one day that it was all pretty much a fairytale
                Sounds like you had a Roman Catholic experience. Am I right?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Vincent View Post
                  Originally posted by lat View Post
                  oh, well... since you say so...
                  Obviously I'm giving you the Biblical perspective. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air or my own imagination. If you don't understand the world you live in then the Bible can explain it to you. Whether you choose to accept that explanation is entirely up to you.
                  You can read the collective 'you' in my statement... My point remains the same.

                  "The bible can explain it to you" ...

                  I am perfectly content knowing that some things are yet to be discovered and understood ... scientifically.

                  I don't need an invisible sky being, or the people that have (mis)interpreted his 'teachings', to explain it to me.

                  ... and here we agree to disagree ...
                  Last edited by lat; 07-02-2012, 09:47 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Vincent View Post
                    Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                    It's sin, as you call it, to give people free will and then put something desireable within their reach and punish them when they try to get it. If you were doing this to a small child, offering them a cookie and then spanking them when they try to get it I'd think you had a sadistic streak to you.

                    Besides, if god is all powerful how did the serpent get into the garden in the first place? If god let him in to tempt Eve then he's doubly sadistic. If she ahd turned down the serpent would god have upped the ante again? It sounds to me like your god just likes to see his creations fail.
                    It's all part of God's plan. Create a people with free will. Allow sin to tempt them away. If there is no temptation away from God, then there is no choice. In this way God will know that those he ends up with will be those who chose Him and truly love Him.

                    If you are choosing a girlfriend, don't you also want her to choose you back?
                    So I should set up my girlfriend with temptation? Hire someone to flirt with her, attempt to seduce her, tell her lies about me in an attempt to see if she'll stray? How about you try that with your wife and let me know how that turns out.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Vincent View Post
                      Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                      Supernatural, meaning outside of the natural world? Nope.

                      Spent 12 years in religious school, went to church, church camp. Came to the realization one day that it was all pretty much a fairytale
                      Sounds like you had a Roman Catholic experience. Am I right?
                      Among others. Dad was catholic, mom was united, sister was baptist. Attended services with all of them at different times. Other than the window dressing they're all pretty much the same.

                      Ever see Red Dwarf, the British comedy series?

                      "The character has no name other than "The Cat" or simply "Cat". He is the humanoid descendant of a modern domestic cat called Frankenstein who had been Dave Lister's pregnant pet cat. He may be the last remaining member of his species, Felis sapiens. His species expanded and evolved into a humanoid form over 3,000,000 years while sealed in the cargo hold of Red Dwarf while Dave Lister was in suspended animation. They formed a religion based on the saviour of Frankenstein: "Cloister the Stupid", the father of their race according to their legends (actually Lister), and "Fuchal", their promised land (actually the Fiji Islands, a place Lister held in high regard and planned to retire to). The race eventually splits and descends into civil war, over what colour the hats at the hot dog and doughnut stand Lister planned to open on Fiji were going to be Ironically the two factions claimed they were going to be red or blue, whilst Lister had wanted them to be green."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jeremy View Post
                        Originally posted by KC View Post
                        Jeremy, you made some interesting points. So I have to note the irony in your glasses half empty comment.

                        The glass is neither half empty nor half full for it is topped off with another moment of optimism.

                        Begin with invalid questions and what do we gain?

                        Jeremy...
                        "Some people's glasses are not only half-empty, but also cracked and leaking.
                        Just remember, they're not happy until you're not happy!" [<-- per Jeremy's footer].
                        And here I thought it was simply too big. . .
                        Yes... It's all too big. Proving evolution, extreme age for he earth, earth going around the sun, the Bible as human thought and stories, or whatever other religious representations made by anyang very religion, proves only failings in human representations of messages from above. None of it disproves the possibility of a god or gods.
                        Last edited by KC; 07-02-2012, 10:01 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Roquentin View Post
                          Originally posted by vincent View Post

                          before the flood men had long life spans (up to 900 years) and after the flood the life spans decreased dramatically.

                          qft
                          900 years in ancient Babylon aren't the same as 900 years today. The ancient Babylonians used a different math approach for calculating years, specifically multiples of 12 and 60, which were considered "sacred" numbers. These ancient Babylonian conventions still influence us to this day (12 months in a year, 12 hours on the face of a clock, 60 minutes in an hour, 60 seconds in a minute, etc.)


                          900 "Babylonian years" divided by 12is equal to 75 "today" years (which makes sense, considering human lifespans seldom exceed 100 years).

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                            So I should set up my girlfriend with temptation? Hire someone to flirt with her, attempt to seduce her, tell her lies about me in an attempt to see if she'll stray?
                            There's no need for that. There are already other options out there for her. But she's seen those options and still chose you. So you know she's with you because she wants to be, not because you're forcing her to be. Doesn't that make you feel good? God wants that same feeling.

                            In God's case he had to put those options/temptations in place because they didn't exist before. Without those temptations there is no choice, and no true love.
                            Last edited by Vincent; 08-02-2012, 09:48 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MrOilers View Post
                              Originally posted by Roquentin View Post
                              Originally posted by vincent View Post

                              before the flood men had long life spans (up to 900 years) and after the flood the life spans decreased dramatically.

                              qft
                              900 years in ancient Babylon aren't the same as 900 years today. The ancient Babylonians used a different math approach for calculating years, specifically multiples of 12 and 60, which were considered "sacred" numbers. These ancient Babylonian conventions still influence us to this day (12 months in a year, 12 hours on the face of a clock, 60 minutes in an hour, 60 seconds in a minute, etc.)


                              900 "Babylonian years" divided by 12is equal to 75 "today" years (which makes sense, considering human lifespans seldom exceed 100 years).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MrOilers View Post
                                Originally posted by Roquentin View Post
                                Originally posted by vincent View Post

                                before the flood men had long life spans (up to 900 years) and after the flood the life spans decreased dramatically.

                                qft
                                900 years in ancient Babylon aren't the same as 900 years today. The ancient Babylonians used a different math approach for calculating years, specifically multiples of 12 and 60, which were considered "sacred" numbers. These ancient Babylonian conventions still influence us to this day (12 months in a year, 12 hours on the face of a clock, 60 minutes in an hour, 60 seconds in a minute, etc.)


                                900 "Babylonian years" divided by 12is equal to 75 "today" years (which makes sense, considering human lifespans seldom exceed 100 years).
                                That's not correct. The Babylonian calendar had 12 months and 354 days in a year. They also had leap years where they would insert an extra month to account for the misalignment of days.

                                But more importantly, it is irrelevant, because Babylon did not exist until after the flood which was when lifespans began to decrease.

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