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  • Originally posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    The United States forced Israel to leave occupied territories. They did not do it on its own volition.
    whether forced or not israel still left. and it still didn't satisfy hamas - even as a first step - when it happened or since.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

    Comment


    • Pulling back on 4000 illegal settlers isn't a concession when Israel is stealing more land in other areas by building more illegal settlements.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by moahunter View Post
        Originally posted by grish View Post
        [As I said earlier, you only think people can fight for their land and security if the people are not jews. This is hate. Stop spreading it.
        I know Grish, you have made it very clear, if you support the Palestinan cause, you hate Jews (because some Muslim groups do), but if you support the Israeli government, you don't hate arabs (even though some Jewish groups do). Got it, makes total sense... you should apply for a job with Harpers foreign affairs policy branch, they would love you.
        Don't worry Moa. This is the oldest trick in the book to justify the illegal occupation and apartheid of Palestinians -- call the other side anti semitic.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by faraz View Post
          Originally posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
          I'm off this thread...

          My reaction to this isn't about Gaza, Hamas, Israel or outside influences and policies.

          It's about those that are dying.

          Monday August 4th is the 100th Anniversary of Canada's entry into the First World War.

          A war that saw 16,000,000 people killed and 21,000,000 wounded.

          September 9th will be the 75th Anniversary of the Second World War where deaths were over 60,000,000, millions upon millions more wounded.

          And this thread proves that mankind has learned nothing.

          Posted (post #5) by Jaybee on this thread http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...469#post615469 is this modified quote:

          Originally Posted by Alberta Aviation Museum
          ...

          The truth is ALL war is evil, it is a failure of human kind to overcome violence with reason...

          To recognize the 100th Anniversary of the First World War is to acknowledge the failures of mankind and to remember those that stepped on to the battlefield...
          Are there things worth fighting for? Worth giving your life for? Yes and on more than one occasion I have stood my ground on principal, on what I believed was right.

          But not for policies and politics.

          In my highly biased personal opinion

          And Moa you still have not answered the question from the posts above so I'll repeat it:
          Answer this Moa:
          Quote:
          You are condoning using civilians as human shields over land...what is a 6 year old worth in square feet Moa? How about a 9 year old? 20 year old?
          Come on, doesn't matter if the 6 year old, 9 year old or 20 year old is from Gaza, Israel, Ukraine or anywhere else.

          You state some things are worth fighting for, whats the value?
          This isn't about Gaza or Israel, this is about you and I do not believe you will answer, which is an answer in itself.

          I'm done with this thread

          In my highly biased personal opinion
          Thomas, the resistance from Palestinians isn't just about land. Yes, illegal settlements continue unhindered but Israel continues to kill Palestinians even during the truce. We don't hear about it because unfortunately, we don't care.

          The world thinks the recent escalation started when the 3 Israelis were kidnapped/murdered (for which there was no proof Hamas did it) yet there were tens of civilians killed by Israel preceding it which no one cared about.

          So Israel goes in and kills anyone it wants, labels them a terrorist to their liking.

          I wonder how many people who want to stay neutral would have done the same thing during the apartheid struggle in South Africa or the civil rights movement in the US.
          if you want to compare based on numbers - and this is not intended in any way to minimize the numbers or the heartbreak behind any number greater than none - where is the outrage over the numbers from an earlier link:

          "Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

          But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence?
          What is it about then?"
          "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

          Comment


          • The conflict we are speaking about is the Palestinian one. Not syrian. Not Iraqi. Not Timbuktu. Create a separate thread and we can have a discussion on it.

            Stop changing the topic.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by faraz View Post
              Thomas, the resistance from Palestinians isn't just about land. Yes, illegal settlements continue unhindered but Israel continues to kill Palestinians even during the truce. We don't hear about it because unfortunately, we don't care.

              The world thinks the recent escalation started when the 3 Israelis were kidnapped/murdered (for which there was no proof Hamas did it) yet there were tens of civilians killed by Israel preceding it which no one cared about.

              So Israel goes in and kills anyone it wants, labels them a terrorist to their liking.

              I wonder how many people who want to stay neutral would have done the same thing during the apartheid struggle in South Africa or the civil rights movement in the US.
              Faraz

              I appreciate the problem is far more complex than I can comprehend even though I have tried to stay up to date on it since the 70s.

              Recent events are what they are and as far as I personally am concerned there is lots of wrongs to go around on both sides and it goes back decades.

              But rockets and return fire are only going to continue what has been happening since the 40s and killing innocents.

              As I said in an earlier post I am taking a very different look at all conflicts the last little while as I have been immersed in researching wars that have eliminated tens of millions in the last century.

              Sadly once again the deaths of innocents will continue until both sides stop firing, till then it will be business as usual and the cost is paid by those on the side lines, children and non combatants.

              It's time to stop...

              There needs to be a solution that works, that is not imposed (they never sustain) and is substantially fair to all.

              But as I stated earlier in this thread...

              History has shown that when things get to this point you ether stop and negotiate peace...or one side will have to be destroyed to gain peace.

              Seems to me stopping will save lives on both sides
              I don't want to see another Palestinian child die or anyone else...the only way for that to happen is for all to lay down arms and pull back.

              Then ask for real help, very publicly, very loudly and very, very passionately...and the rest of the world has to step up, not should, not sorta, must.

              If the governments won't step up then it needs to be real people as unarmed, media covered blockade runners, protesters and peaceful human walls of protection. The Gandhi playbook and he succeeded!

              The same way the Civil rights movement succeeded.

              Because the alternative is a cost of lives that is far too high and each moment that passes creates new hatred and reasons to continue.

              Mankind as a species should have learned by now and right now, in light of the research I been doing, it saddens me we can create vast technologies to solve first world problems, but cannot solve our real problems by working together.

              In my highly biased personal opinion

              Now that I have responded to your comment I am once again dropping off this thread as I have had all I can handle for now.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by faraz View Post
                ...

                I wonder how many people who want to stay neutral would have done the same thing during the apartheid struggle in South Africa or the civil rights movement in the US.
                Originally posted by faraz View Post
                The conflict we are speaking about is the Palestinian one. Not syrian. Not Iraqi. Not Timbuktu. Create a separate thread and we can have a discussion on it.

                Stop changing the topic.
                it wasn't me who first introduced other conflicts to make a point...
                "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                Comment


                • That's a great article. I agree with his hypothesis: Hamas is dispicable, the settlements are both counterproductive and illegal/immoral, and Israel's occupation is good for nothing, and taking sides doesn't help.

                  Edit: re:Grish, post 160.
                  Last edited by highlander; 29-07-2014, 08:30 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Another day, another UN school targeted.

                    Israeli tank shells slammed into a crowded UN school sheltering Gaza war refugees Wednesday, killing 15 Palestinians and wounding 90 after tearing through two classroom walls, a health official and a spokesman for a UN aid agency said.

                    The Israeli military had no immediate comment.

                    The strike in the Jebaliya refugee camp came amid Israel's heaviest air and artillery assault in more than three weeks of Israel-Hamas fighting. Tuesday marked the deadliest day so far, with 128 Palestinians killed, according to a Gaza health official.

                    The overall Palestinian death toll rose to at least 1,258, with more than 7,100 wounded, said the health official, Ashraf al-Kidra. Israel has lost 53 soldiers and three civilians.

                    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-co...hool-1.2722260

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kkozoriz View Post
                      Another day, another UN school targeted.

                      Israeli tank shells slammed into a crowded UN school sheltering Gaza war refugees Wednesday, killing 15 Palestinians and wounding 90 after tearing through two classroom walls, a health official and a spokesman for a UN aid agency said.

                      The Israeli military had no immediate comment.

                      The strike in the Jebaliya refugee camp came amid Israel's heaviest air and artillery assault in more than three weeks of Israel-Hamas fighting. Tuesday marked the deadliest day so far, with 128 Palestinians killed, according to a Gaza health official.

                      The overall Palestinian death toll rose to at least 1,258, with more than 7,100 wounded, said the health official, Ashraf al-Kidra. Israel has lost 53 soldiers and three civilians.

                      http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-co...hool-1.2722260
                      what's happening and the consequences of what's happening is heartbreaking but i don't believe even you believe that "another un school" was actually the intended target.
                      "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                      Comment


                      • Unintended or intended, does it matter? 15 people are dead and 90 wounded, many seriously. They are taken to hospitals that have limited food, water, medicines, doctors and even power. The Israelis have had control over Gaza for decades and control even the amount of food they have for the people in Gaza.

                        as an occupying power, Israel is required under Articles 55, 59 and 60 of the Fourth Geneva Convention to ensure free, unimpeded passage of humanitarian relief and is prohibited from impeding the full realization of the occupied people’s human rights. Israel’s blockade impedes Gazans’ rights to food, to an adequate standard of living, to work, and to the highest attainable standard of health, and therefore is a violation of international law.
                        Israel is attacking people under their complete control of the sea, airspace and most of their borders. They have effectively blockaded them against the rulings by the UN. They even refuse to allow shipments of humanitarian aid, for example:
                        Freedom Flotilla II – made up of ten ships with civilians from 22 countries is setting sail for the Gaza Strip. Last May 2011, Israel attacked Freedom Flotilla I, killing nine civilians including one U.S. citizen.

                        While this flotilla will be carrying a symbolic amount of humanitarian aid, the stated goal of the flotilla organizers is to challenge the illegality of the blockade itself. What is the situation in Gaza such that hundreds of civilians from tens of countries are risking their lives on the high seas to challenge Israel’s blockade?

                        2011 statistics: http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.c...ts-statistics/
                        • 54 percent of households face food insecurity, defined as inadequate physical, social or economic access to food.
                        • An additional 12 percent are considered vulnerable to food insecurity.
                        • Only 20 percent of Gazan households are food secure.
                        • 38 percent of the population lives below the poverty line.
                        • Since the blockade began, the number of Palestinian refugees completely unable to secure access to food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water (‘abject poverty’) has tripled to 300,000.
                        • 75 percent of households polled by the World Food Programme in the Gaza Strip received outside aid.
                        • Gaza’s hospitals are at “zero stock levels” for 178 of 480 essential medications, with another 69 at low stock. Of 700 essential medical supplies, 190 are at “zero stock levels” and another 70 at low stock.
                        • Due to lack of fuel, the Gaza Power Plant runs at 45 percent capacity, leading to daily blackouts of eight to twelve hours.
                        • Given this fuel shortage, 90 percent of private cars are no longer driven and of public services, only 15 percent are operational. (Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, The Illegal Closure of the Gaza Strip: Collective Punishment of the Civilian Population, December 10, 2010)
                        • The Gaza aquifer provides 90 percent of Gaza’s water. Only ten percent of that water meets the standards of being suitable for consumption. Water-borne diseases cause 26 percent of illnesses in Gaza.
                        • Because of lack of treatment capacity and electricity, Gaza authorities must release around 80,000 cubic meters of sewage into the Mediterranean Sea on a daily basis.
                        • The construction of 86,000 houses is required to meet natural growth and recover from previous Israeli invasions.
                        • Export of Palestinian goods, the import of raw materials and access to Gaza’s natural resources have been severely restricted, devastating Gazan businesses and the ability of the region to be self-sufficient, thereby rendering it dependent on international aid.
                        • Economic output per capita has fallen by 40 percent of 1994 levels.
                        • 95 percent of Gaza’s 3,900 industrial businesses are closed or have suspended work.
                        • The other five percent are operating at 20 to 50 percent of capacity. This has cost between 100,000 and 120,000 jobs.
                        • Israeli restrictions block access to 35 percent of Gaza’s agricultural land and fishermen are forbidden to fish beyond 3 nautical miles from the shore.
                        • In 2010, employment in agriculture fell from 14,900 to 10,100.
                        • While Gaza needs 670,000 truckloads of construction material, an average of 715 enter per month, at 11% of pre-blockade levels.
                        • The construction industry now has 10,000 workers, 42 percent of pre-blockade levels.
                        • Unemployment is at 45.2 percent, with only 40.3 percent of working-age Gazans in the labor force.
                        • Youth unemployment is at more than 47 percent.
                        • 290 truckloads of exports were allowed out of Gaza between November 2010 and May 2011.
                        • Before the siege, more than 960 truckloads a month exited Gaza. This is only five percent of pre-blockade levels.
                        • In 2011, a weekly average of 900 truckloads of goods entered Gaza. Before the siege, 2,807 truckloads entered weekly.
                        • On March 2, 2011, Israel closed the Karni crossing, forcing importers and exporters to use the Kerem Shalom crossing. For wheat exporters, this increased transport costs by 235 percent and for wheat importers by 30 percent.
                        • Between June 2010 and March 2011, the cost of wheat flour increased by 50 percent and vegetable oil increased by 40 percent. Meanwhile, the average wage has decreased by more than 25 percent since 2007.
                        • Gazan households spend 56 percent of their expenditures on food, with 52.5 percent eating lower quality food and 67 percent buying food on credit as a result of high food costs.

                        What you have here is shooting fish in a barrel except using tanks and massive airstrikes. Not very sporting is it Ken?
                        Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                        Comment


                        • ^

                          and i can't believe even you believe the israelis are responding as sport or treating this as a carnival game.

                          and yes, intent matters, just as it matters when a missile missing its intended target should not be mistaken for the intent of those firing it.

                          as for your statistics and conclusion, if the israelis are in such total control of gaza and absolutely everything that takes place there, are they also the ones stockpiling and firing missiles and constructing tunnels? because unless you believe that as well, both sides need to stop feeding the fire and eliminate the underlying causes of what should be a needless conflict if both sides want it to end.
                          Last edited by kcantor; 30-07-2014, 07:07 AM.
                          "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by kcantor View Post
                            ^
                            and i can't believe even you believe the israelis are responding as sport or treating this as a carnival game.
                            I am not, don't act so naive. There are rules in sport and there are rules in war. Israel is occupying and blockading Gaza against agreed upon human rights, conventions, agreements and rules that are part of Israel's membership within the UN. If any other country were not under the wing and brinkmanship of the United States Veto powers in the UN Security Council, Israel's actions would place them within the same group as Syria, Sudan, Iran, and North Korea
                            Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

                            Comment


                            • I am truly happy to see other human beings trying to hold countries and governments accountable with respect to human rights, conventions, agreements and other rules.

                              Thank you for describing the rules and conventions that should govern Israel and hold it responsible for its actions.

                              Could you please outline the rules and conventions that should govern Hamas?

                              Thank you in advance.

                              Comment


                              • 15 More Dead in UN School Shelter

                                GAZA, PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES -- Israeli tank shells slammed into a crowded U.N. school sheltering Gaza war refugees Wednesday, killing 15 Palestinians and wounding 90 after tearing through two classroom walls, a health official and a spokesman for a U.N. aid agency said.
                                http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20..._refugees.html

                                But of course, these war crimes on another land that doesn't belong to Israel, are fully justified because its the "good" guys Israel who have invaded and are doing the killing of the civilians (to the glee of extremists sitting on couches eating popcorn). No doubt hamaz forced these refuges into these UN compounds and gave Israel no choice but to kill them
                                Last edited by moahunter; 30-07-2014, 08:17 AM.

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