View Poll Results: Mandatory winter tires

Voters
58. You may not vote on this poll
  • Too expensive and not necessary

    19 32.76%
  • Long overdue

    18 31.03%
  • Only with government subsidy

    9 15.52%
  • Yes alongside mandatory annual check-ups

    15 25.86%
  • Option 5? I should have stopped at 4. Other?

    5 8.62%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 201 to 253 of 253

Thread: Mandatory winter tires in Alberta--good idea?

  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Heres a funny thing. 50% of people have winter tires and yet for walking around few people have top grip boots or winter footwear. Why the inconsistency? Many people get seriously injured just walking down the sidewalk and we're often talking broken bones, hips, back injuries due to a sudden fall.

    I think the difference is we don't have complete industries telling everybody what they need in both instances.
    The difference is that a person falling on the ice while walking rarely, if ever, kills other people.

    Defensive drivers rarely do either. Regardless of rubber used. People driving with winter tires still kill people. Statistically we don't know what differentiation there is. I suspect bad, inattentive drivers or even substance abusing or reckless drivers kill people. Perhaps interesting is that summer months here invariable feature twice the amount of driving related fatalities as winter months. A bit inconvenient to your argument. Winter driving features somewhat more collisions, but not more fatal episodes. Suffice to say that many variables are involved in driving related fatalities. But theres a lack of good independent studies examining what degree of reduction would be made. Before people cite that fatalities are decreasing its important to note that this would concur with the advent of many safety features in vehicles and not just winter tires. So that the Winter tire causality is not isolated at all.


    But citing avoidance of tragedy is another ploy used in the advertising and relentless guilt edged quest of manufacturers to sell more product. I'm fairly immune to that and the other tactics of the industry.



    Heres an interesting thing. When I rent cars I often specifically ask to get one with winter tires. But the vast majority of the time I'm told they don't have any. They don't equip their fleet with winter tires in a winter climate. I find that somewhat interesting and that there has not been incentive or impetus, even legal, or liable reasons for doing so. The reason I ask is out of curiosity. People for years have told me "once you try them you'll love them, never go back to all seasons yada yada" On the two occasions I was able to find a rental equipped with winter tires I thought it was kind of nice but I didn't think it was any game changer. I could still find instances where traction was limited, handling was still not remarkably different. In one of the vehicles the difference was slight and I don't know if it was because it was a lighter subcompact vehicle. In both instances I was not moved to go out and get winter tires.
    Last edited by Replacement; 30-08-2018 at 09:34 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  2. #202

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    Those dog-walker crampon thingies seem somewhat popular, people do use those. Which make sense for those freezing-rain days. Like chains for your shoes.
    There can only be one.

  3. #203

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    @alkeli

    I clarified earlier. The first two vehicles I had I drove for over a dozen years. First one actually for 15yrs, 2nd for 12 on the dot. But the 2nd one was driven a bit more due to work and clocked in at over 400K. I don't think I'll ever possess another vehicle that makes it to 400K. The most I expect to get now is about 5-10 yrs. I don't call that a longtime as per the cost investment. Vehicles are a crap investment. worst things people ever buy. Adding any other expense to that piles on the worst.

    If we're comparing experiences though I've most definitely had some lemons. I rarely go a year or two without some major repair cost. Had 2 vehicles where the cost of swapping out a transaxle or block exceeded the value of the vehicle. Vehicle depreciation I think also reflects what piles of **** they are these days. Lots of onboard computer crap and over engineered circuitry that just guarantees more things failing, more things being difficult to fix, and more expensive to replace. Its what the industry wants. I'm not convinced its what the consumer wants.

    When the LRT comes to Millwoods I'll be more than happy to give up driving period. Vehicles are largely an aggravation. I drive less and less as it is and don't miss it. My goal is public transit reliance.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Those dog-walker crampon thingies seem somewhat popular, people do use those. Which make sense for those freezing-rain days. Like chains for your shoes.
    But why should people have to go outside of the box to have reasonably safe walking footwear. Essentially this is saying that the footwear industry is caught in the proverbial dark ages not offering better product. People used chains here in driving (rare) a longtime ago. Still happens in mountain regions but an actual product should be available out of the box. For instance specifically cited winter boots and shoes should offer better anti slip protection than they do. People shouldn't have to go to MEC to find something just to walk down the street.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  5. #205

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    If you don't want to change tires, just get ALL-WEATHER tires... (not to be confused with ALL-SEASON which is really just 3 seasons). If you can't afford tires, take a bus. You shouldn't be driving on the road if you are a hazard to yourself and others. No, driving slower than everyone else is not a safety tactic, its very hazardous.

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Those dog-walker crampon thingies seem somewhat popular, people do use those. Which make sense for those freezing-rain days. Like chains for your shoes.
    But why should people have to go outside of the box to have reasonably safe walking footwear. Essentially this is saying that the footwear industry is caught in the proverbial dark ages not offering better product. People used chains here in driving (rare) a longtime ago. Still happens in mountain regions but an actual product should be available out of the box. For instance specifically cited winter boots and shoes should offer better anti slip protection than they do. People shouldn't have to go to MEC to find something just to walk down the street.
    I have winter hiking boots. They cost good money, but I get good use out of them. The footwear industry is not caught in the proverbial dark ages... You can get winter hiking boots at many stores, not just MEC. Most people are not interested in function, and only fashion, so they buy something that looks good, and don't consider grip in icy situations. If you go into Champs, and hoping to come away with proper winter shoes, you should realize that this is an althetic shoe store, selling shoes for football, or soccer, or tennis, or baseball, or basketball, not grippy shoes for walking on ice .

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    People for years have told me "once you try them you'll love them, never go back to all seasons yada yada" On the two occasions I was able to find a rental equipped with winter tires I thought it was kind of nice but I didn't think it was any game changer. I could still find instances where traction was limited, handling was still not remarkably different. In one of the vehicles the difference was slight and I don't know if it was because it was a lighter subcompact vehicle. In both instances I was not moved to go out and get winter tires.
    This is completely true about "once you try them". However, driving a rental car with them give you no comparison to your own vehicle. You also don't know how old/worn those winter tires are, and we all know how people drive them.

    My wife thought they were pointless too. When we moved in together, I got her a set of winter tires. She had been driving her car with all-seasons for years. She was shocked at the difference in how her car handled so much better. Now, like me, she always had a set of winter wheels/tires, and this is still the case 4 vehicles later. We just bought a new Nissan SUV around Easter and even though it's AWD, we're picking up a set of winter tires on rims in the next few weeks when the sales are on, and before all the store sell out from the first forecasted snowfall. Then it's panic time, everyone is sold out and the shops are booked 2 months in advance. We'll have our winter set ready and waiting for a swap in our driveway.

  8. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    Defensive drivers rarely do either. Regardless of rubber used. People driving with winter tires still kill people. Statistically we don't know what differentiation there is. I suspect bad, inattentive drivers or even substance abusing or reckless drivers kill people.


    But its another ploy used in the advertising and relentless guilt edged quest of manufacturers to sell more product. I'm immune to that and the other tactics of the industry.
    It's not a ploy at all. Winter rater tires improve your braking distance, help with cornering, and give you better traction on ice / snow and cold roads. It's not a ploy, its well studied and proven that the winter compounds used in winter tires offer a significant improvement in safety. Yes, you can still drive like an asshol with or without winter tires. Yes, you can still kill someone with winter tires. Winter tires won't change a persons behavior, or make them a better driver. However, they allow your vehicle to handle the conditions much better.

    A defensive driver driving much slower than everyone else is just as bad as the agressive driver driving much faster than everyone else.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    People for years have told me "once you try them you'll love them, never go back to all seasons yada yada" On the two occasions I was able to find a rental equipped with winter tires I thought it was kind of nice but I didn't think it was any game changer. I could still find instances where traction was limited, handling was still not remarkably different. In one of the vehicles the difference was slight and I don't know if it was because it was a lighter subcompact vehicle. In both instances I was not moved to go out and get winter tires.
    This is completely true about "once you try them". However, driving a rental car with them give you no comparison to your own vehicle. You also don't know how old/worn those winter tires are, and we all know how people drive them.

    My wife thought they were pointless too. When we moved in together, I got her a set of winter tires. She had been driving her car with all-seasons for years. She was shocked at the difference in how her car handled so much better. Now, like me, she always had a set of winter wheels/tires, and this is still the case 4 vehicles later. We just bought a new Nissan SUV around Easter and even though it's AWD, we're picking up a set of winter tires on rims in the next few weeks when the sales are on, and before all the store sell out from the first forecasted snowfall. Then it's panic time, everyone is sold out and the shops are booked 2 months in advance. We'll have our winter set ready and waiting for a swap in our driveway.
    Thanks for the earnest response. You managed to avoid the usual citations and actually cited your experience. That is appreciated. One interesting thing in your post though is the "panic" to get the winter tires on. Its something I don't experience. A lot of drivers tell me about their near misses and just barely avoiding the latest calamity. I have several drivers on the block that almost always have their dinged vehicle parked out front. Really its amazing how often in this city people have collisions and particularly that they have them all year round. I don't get into these situations of near misses. In my whole driving career I maybe had a few instances where I merely had to drive into the curb to stop or slow down if somebody else with winter tires in front of me stopped out of the blue hazardously or tried to make a left turn without time to do so. Basically it takes a monumental act of stupidity around me to even cause me to have a situation where an accident is even ever a remote possibility.


    I haven't touched, grazed, impacted a vehicle since 91. In that instance it was the other drivers fault. I've had a couple people rear end me since in fender benders but those were not even reportable instances and unavoidable. I've never touched a pedestrican, cyclist or anybody while driving. So I don't get these fear or close call instances that have me running off to the tire shop. They don't happen to me. I'm a pretty good driver, defensive, but I don't drive slow as to be a hazard either. I drive confidently and I know how any vehicle I drive handles and what it can do. I avert potential accidents in the winter often. Because of others driving habits.

    I will say this. If my driving acuity or confidence decreased considerably to the point where I was not a safe driver I would just stop driving. I would not necessarily go the route of winter tires as bandaid safety. if my driving was cognitively compromised I would just stop.
    Last edited by Replacement; 30-08-2018 at 09:57 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    Defensive drivers rarely do either. Regardless of rubber used. People driving with winter tires still kill people. Statistically we don't know what differentiation there is. I suspect bad, inattentive drivers or even substance abusing or reckless drivers kill people.


    But its another ploy used in the advertising and relentless guilt edged quest of manufacturers to sell more product. I'm immune to that and the other tactics of the industry.
    It's not a ploy at all. Winter rater tires improve your braking distance, help with cornering, and give you better traction on ice / snow and cold roads. It's not a ploy, its well studied and proven that the winter compounds used in winter tires offer a significant improvement in safety. Yes, you can still drive like an asshol with or without winter tires. Yes, you can still kill someone with winter tires. Winter tires won't change a persons behavior, or make them a better driver. However, they allow your vehicle to handle the conditions much better.

    A defensive driver driving much slower than everyone else is just as bad as the agressive driver driving much faster than everyone else.
    Yeah, I've seen all the videos on this. Most of those tests involve driver actions that a competent driver wouldn't do. For instance I love when they do a hard turn on ice suddenly swinging the wheel as if that's what any competent driver would do in a real world situation.

    I don't drive "much slower than everybody else" I do feel that some subsection of winter tire users drive faster than everybody else.
    Last edited by Replacement; 30-08-2018 at 09:59 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  11. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Those dog-walker crampon thingies seem somewhat popular, people do use those. Which make sense for those freezing-rain days. Like chains for your shoes.
    But why should people have to go outside of the box to have reasonably safe walking footwear. Essentially this is saying that the footwear industry is caught in the proverbial dark ages not offering better product. People used chains here in driving (rare) a longtime ago. Still happens in mountain regions but an actual product should be available out of the box. For instance specifically cited winter boots and shoes should offer better anti slip protection than they do. People shouldn't have to go to MEC to find something just to walk down the street.
    I have winter hiking boots. They cost good money, but I get good use out of them. The footwear industry is not caught in the proverbial dark ages... You can get winter hiking boots at many stores, not just MEC. Most people are not interested in function, and only fashion, so they buy something that looks good, and don't consider grip in icy situations. If you go into Champs, and hoping to come away with proper winter shoes, you should realize that this is an althetic shoe store, selling shoes for football, or soccer, or tennis, or baseball, or basketball, not grippy shoes for walking on ice .
    Considering that no winter boot or shoe tested was better than a one snowflake rating I wonder what footwear you wear. Because yes, the footwear industry is failing these tests;
    http://www.ratemytreads.com/wp-conte...s-tested-1.pdf

    Note that ZERO products got more than a 1 snowflake rating out of 3. The vast majority got zero.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  12. #212

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    Heres my public service post in this thread.

    For years the tire industry was telling people that don't drive much to make sure to throw away their old winter tires even if they have thread left because the tire compounds loose efficacy after around 5-7yrs. This just being one example, could find several.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...article560844/


    This being the same industry that says that they can sell tires to you that are already 5-6yrs old off the shelf at regular price and that it doesn't matter;

    https://globalnews.ca/news/2338584/c...of-tires-sold/

    “We do not have an official policy in place regarding the sale of tires past a certain age,”


    haha


    So check the dates of those tires my friends. its in very small font, you'll need a magnifying glass and usually harder to read than the recommended tire pressure..

    So check those tires out carefully you are buying;

    Consumers can determine the age of tires by looking for the four-digit tire identification code imprinted into the sidewall.

    The first two numbers represent the week of the year when it was manufactured; the last two digits are the last two numbers of the year when the tire was manufactured.

    For example, 2612 refers to a tire produced in the 26th week of 2012.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Those dog-walker crampon thingies seem somewhat popular, people do use those. Which make sense for those freezing-rain days. Like chains for your shoes.
    But why should people have to go outside of the box to have reasonably safe walking footwear. Essentially this is saying that the footwear industry is caught in the proverbial dark ages not offering better product. People used chains here in driving (rare) a longtime ago. Still happens in mountain regions but an actual product should be available out of the box. For instance specifically cited winter boots and shoes should offer better anti slip protection than they do. People shouldn't have to go to MEC to find something just to walk down the street.
    I have winter hiking boots. They cost good money, but I get good use out of them. The footwear industry is not caught in the proverbial dark ages... You can get winter hiking boots at many stores, not just MEC. Most people are not interested in function, and only fashion, so they buy something that looks good, and don't consider grip in icy situations. If you go into Champs, and hoping to come away with proper winter shoes, you should realize that this is an althetic shoe store, selling shoes for football, or soccer, or tennis, or baseball, or basketball, not grippy shoes for walking on ice .
    Considering that no winter boot or shoe tested was better than a one snowflake rating I wonder what footwear you wear. Because yes, the footwear industry is failing these tests;
    http://www.ratemytreads.com/wp-conte...s-tested-1.pdf

    Note that ZERO products got more than a 1 snowflake rating out of 3. The vast majority got zero.
    My boots aren't on that list. I'm not sure why you are going on about footwear in a winter tire thread, but whatever. I've never seen someone going 60km/h while walking.

  14. #214

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    I think the point is obvious. Walking takes place in the same winter landscape as driving. Yet the worst all season tires likely have infinitely better traction then the best winter footwear. I'm not the only one that finds that perplexing, or a double standard. In one year in Ontario 20K people got significantly injured slipping on ice. Its not a rare thing. In one day in Edmonton last winter more people fell on ice injuring themselves than were injured in traffic accidents. Vast majority of sidewalks aren't even treated, shoveled, sanded. Nothing.



    I guess theres an automatic go industry in repurposing old discarded all seasons treads as footwear soles. would do the job better.. Somebody could get rich

    ps not sure that I should have to point this out but humans are bipeds. We walk with two legs. In typical gait we have one plant foot making contact at all times. Only one. Vehicles have 4, preferably at all times, making contact. With even the worst of tires offering better contact than that commonly found in footwear.


    The speed comment by Meds was a little silly. Certainly one doesn't need to be going a certain speed to wipe out when walking, just to take a step forward.
    Last edited by Replacement; 30-08-2018 at 10:44 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  15. #215

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    i'm at a loss of how to explain the big differences in why winter tires are needed in the winter season more than what has already been explained. I'm not even sure what the point of your tangent is.

    People should have good approrirate footwear, just like they should have approriate tires. However, You can easily get away with bad footwear, and if you do have a slip or trip, your not likely to impact someone else, outside of your own ego. If you wipe out while driving, your very likely to impact someone else.

  16. #216

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    These are available in many places in many styles and color for anywhere from $5-$20



    Just like driving, if it's slippery out, take the proper precautions and use the proper equipment. You can't rely on every surface to be free of ice and snow.

  17. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    i'm at a loss of how to explain the big differences in why winter tires are needed in the winter season more than what has already been explained. I'm not even sure what the point of your tangent is.

    People should have good approrirate footwear, just like they should have approriate tires. However, You can easily get away with bad footwear, and if you do have a slip or trip, your not likely to impact someone else, outside of your own ego. If you wipe out while driving, your very likely to impact someone else.
    Need? Its a manufactured need. You bought winter tires and the whole ploy. That's fine. But its not a need. Its a want, applied through endless advertising and most of which is bs. But if it makes you sleep better at night buying something superfluous that's good too.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    These are available in many places in many styles and color for anywhere from $5-$20



    Just like driving, if it's slippery out, take the proper precautions and use the proper equipment. You can't rely on every surface to be free of ice and snow.

    I use the best winter footwear out in winter conditions all the time. Because without that slipping is easy. I'm never out of control while driving. The all seasons work sufficiently combined with defensive and prudent driving.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  19. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    These are available in many places in many styles and color for anywhere from $5-$20
    Just like driving, if it's slippery out, take the proper precautions and use the proper equipment. You can't rely on every surface to be free of ice and snow.

    I use the best winter footwear out in winter conditions all the time. Because without that slipping is easy. I'm never out of control while driving. The all seasons work sufficiently combined with defensive and prudent driving.
    I get that you're happy with your all-seasons, but in emergency situations, you can't argue the facts and statistics of improved handling and improved stopping distances with winter tires vs all-seasons. You can't honestly believe that your all-seasons handle and stop as short as winter tires.

  20. #220

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    Winter tires are no better than all seasons for 98-99% of the time. That 1-2% of the time, I'm damn happy I have em, and unlike shoes, you don't really have the option to decide what tires to mount on a daily basis, unless you really have that much time on your hands.

    Same with winter footwear. For most of winter walking, I can get away with just sneakers of some sort. But then there is that 1-2 % of the time that I'm glad I've worn proper winter footwear... (and sometimes wish I had when I hadn't).

  21. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    These are available in many places in many styles and color for anywhere from $5-$20
    Just like driving, if it's slippery out, take the proper precautions and use the proper equipment. You can't rely on every surface to be free of ice and snow.

    I use the best winter footwear out in winter conditions all the time. Because without that slipping is easy. I'm never out of control while driving. The all seasons work sufficiently combined with defensive and prudent driving.
    I get that you're happy with your all-seasons, but in emergency situations, you can't argue the facts and statistics of improved handling and improved stopping distances with winter tires vs all-seasons. You can't honestly believe that your all-seasons handle and stop as short as winter tires.
    I do believe that I can handle a vehicle more than adequately without any accident or coming close to any accident and even regularly avoiding potential accidents because I do it routinely and have since 91. Thus that I would be safer with snow tires is a nebulous concept. How does one improve on no accidents, no close calls?

    Proviso I don't do much highway driving at all in Winter. If I need to go somewhere far I go by Train or plane. Services my needs fully, everybody is different. For some uses Winter tires are the right answer. If I was a downhill skier for instance and commonly going to the mountains I would probably get winter tires. I'm primarily a city driver. But most people are that.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  22. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Winter tires are no better than all seasons for 98-99% of the time. That 1-2% of the time, I'm damn happy I have em, and unlike shoes, you don't really have the option to decide what tires to mount on a daily basis, unless you really have that much time on your hands.

    Same with winter footwear. For most of winter walking, I can get away with just sneakers of some sort. But then there is that 1-2 % of the time that I'm glad I've worn proper winter footwear... (and sometimes wish I had when I hadn't).
    Reasonable post, thanks. I'm lucky enough to just be able to stay home on the 1-2% days. Everybody's circumstance is different. But more people should endeavor to stay home on some days if that is at all possible (and should be in most occupations) Drivers who sensibly stay home on those worst day of the year conditions do a favor to the logjam of traffic conditions from those that don't.


    There used to be a common notion of snowday where schools were closed, businesses closed, and people encouraged to stay home. That was usually about one instance a winter, would occasionally stretch to two days. I think in winter city environments we ought to go back to that notion.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  23. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    These are available in many places in many styles and color for anywhere from $5-$20
    Just like driving, if it's slippery out, take the proper precautions and use the proper equipment. You can't rely on every surface to be free of ice and snow.

    I use the best winter footwear out in winter conditions all the time. Because without that slipping is easy. I'm never out of control while driving. The all seasons work sufficiently combined with defensive and prudent driving.
    I get that you're happy with your all-seasons, but in emergency situations, you can't argue the facts and statistics of improved handling and improved stopping distances with winter tires vs all-seasons. You can't honestly believe that your all-seasons handle and stop as short as winter tires.
    I do believe that I can handle a vehicle more than adequately without any accident or coming close to any accident and even regularly avoiding potential accidents because I do it routinely and have since 91. Thus that I would be safer with snow tires is a nebulous concept. How does one improve on no accidents, no close calls?

    Proviso I don't do much highway driving at all in Winter. If I need to go somewhere far I go by Train or plane. Services my needs fully, everybody is different. For some uses Winter tires are the right answer. If I was a downhill skier for instance and commonly going to the mountains I would probably get winter tires. I'm primarily a city driver. But most people are that.
    So by your logic and legalities aside, you could safely stop wearing your seat belt and not worry about it because of your past experience?

    All I'm saying is you can't avoid everything. You and I are lucky, I've never been in an accident where I was at fault, ever. I was rear-ended once while stopped in traffic, obviously nothing to do with my driving, and everything to do with the person behind me being unable to stop.

    But driving by say a bus stop, and just as you're passing by, someone slips at the bus stop and falls onto the road in front of you. Compared to all-seasons, Winter tires will stop 6 meters shorter on loose snow, and 9 meters shorter on ice, and this is based only 30 km/h. At 40km/h the loose snow stop turns into 9 meters difference...

    In either case, you're likely safe in your car, but the person laying on the road may or may not get run over based on how well you're able to stop. So I'm sure you feel safe, but remember you're not the only one on the road. Someone can slide out in front of you, a pedestrian or oddly brave cyclist could come out of nowhere and fall in front of you, you never know. But it's not just for you, it also reduces the chances of hurting or killing someone else. You're the one that's gotta live with that. At least if you HAVE winter tires, you did everything you could as safely as possible.

  24. #224
    C2E Long Term Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Most poor people don't drive. Mandatory winter tires might mean they have less chance of being hit while they cross the street to catch a bus.
    I don't even know where to begin with this statement.
    Seems pretty accurate to me. Vehicle ownership takes a fair bit of income.
    The way it was crafted and many folks out there are the 'working poor' and actually need to spend far more money than they should on a vehicle just to get to work because of a lack of transit or timing.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  25. #225

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    For a number of years I just bought the all season tires with the snowflake on them and ran them year round. Seemed simple enough.

    Last two vehicle purchases though have forced us back to having two sets.

  26. #226

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    Yeah I like the two sets. Safer for my family, not worried about conditions, and using 2 sets makes them last longer. The winters aren't used as much and have less mileage on them in general since summer travels and camping put on lots of miles. Finally due for new summer tires soon but I should have another winter or two out of the winter set. Both sets are 3.5 years old and I have 100,000 km's on them combined.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Heres a funny thing. 50% of people have winter tires and yet for walking around few people have top grip boots or winter footwear. Why the inconsistency? Many people get seriously injured just walking down the sidewalk and we're often talking broken bones, hips, back injuries due to a sudden fall.

    I think the difference is we don't have complete industries telling everybody what they need in both instances.
    The difference is that a person falling on the ice while walking rarely, if ever, kills other people.

    Defensive drivers rarely do either.
    Then we should up the testing standards and frequency, removing the licenses of anyone who fails. Further we should be removing the licenses from anyone who has even the least traffic infraction. Barring that we should be requiring vehicle safety features (like, say, winter tires) to compensate for the average driving skill of the majority of drivers.

    Or to put it another way, your personal driving skill or the driving skill of the few very good drivers out there is irrelevant to this discussion.

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  28. #228
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    No doubt they've been tested to the nth degree, but it'll be interesting to see how self-driving cars fare in the varying conditions of winter driving.
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  29. #229
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    I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

    As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
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  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

    As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
    One thing is that the average walking speed is around 5km/hr. Not sure where you get 1-3 from. Even in mountain terrain hiking I do up to 5km hr, faster on standard sidewalks. But again bipeds plant with one small foot at any given time. A very minute portion on road surface. Conversely in winter I deflate tires slightly. You got 4 tires on road surface at any given time and easily as much as 10 times the rubber to surface contact. Plus you got far superior tread even on All seasons than you have walking. Basically any all season made does far better on icy inclines than any boot would. Next the vector force of the vehicle is down and forward. You easily impact how much vector force by simply driving a little slower when necessary thus drastically impacting stopping distance. When walking it doesn't matter. ANY speed of walking can result in falls if the conditions are absolutely slippery. Because again sidewalks often have no applicant applied and are often not maintained at all. City roads are.

    For city specific driving the spraying of roads virtually eliminated bad road conditions on any commuter routes and the vast majority of last season was free sailing. The spraying improved the road surfaces considerably. I would say that as a public service probably did more for winter traction than any difference from Winter tires.


    Next, I wonder really how much, in standard road conditions I,e some residue of sand/gravel/spray on road surface, difference in stopping distance there actually is. The road testing usually occurs on virgin ice that slides better than curling or hockey ice would. Real world conditions aren't the same as the test conditions. They rarely are.


    Black ice/glare ice. Winter tires don't handle this inordinately well either. Particularly if that Winter tire user is exceeding the recommended speed given the general road conditions which often happens with winter tire users. So that false sense of security and handling and braking advantage is very mitigated on those surfaces. The key is to be able to recognize well in advance conditions and areas prone to them. Any rubber won't save you from what you need to be detecting out there.

    Finally, have people completely forgotten about the drive into curb possibility? Edmonton is a small city. Virtually every road is 2 lane or 4 lane meaning regardless of lane you can bump curb, just steer into curb and or snow berm if you have to to avoid a collision or pedestrian. Do they even teach this anymore? I'm the only one mentioning it. You might screw your alignment doing this but in the very rare instance its required it works. I find under almost any conditions that braking is enough. When it isn't and at city speeds your vehicle will already be slowed down, just hit the curb.
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018 at 05:36 AM.
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  31. #231

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    One more on stopping distance. If the distances, on actual maintained road surfaces were actually so dramatically different. I.e. numbers like 30 percent difference commonly being tossed out there, than it stands to reason that there would be a whole lot more fender benders than there is.

    On standard road surfaces theres a difference. It isn't as radical as 30%. That would be imminently noticeable every time you drive. I ascertain it being more like 5-10% in typical city road conditions. if that.

    Now if "summer tires" still existed to any degree THEN you would see a DRAMATIC difference in stopping/starting times. All season tires cover the majority of that margin.
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018 at 05:39 AM.
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  32. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Heres a funny thing. 50% of people have winter tires and yet for walking around few people have top grip boots or winter footwear. Why the inconsistency? Many people get seriously injured just walking down the sidewalk and we're often talking broken bones, hips, back injuries due to a sudden fall.

    I think the difference is we don't have complete industries telling everybody what they need in both instances.
    The difference is that a person falling on the ice while walking rarely, if ever, kills other people.

    Defensive drivers rarely do either.
    Then we should up the testing standards and frequency, removing the licenses of anyone who fails. Further we should be removing the licenses from anyone who has even the least traffic infraction. Barring that we should be requiring vehicle safety features (like, say, winter tires) to compensate for the average driving skill of the majority of drivers.

    Or to put it another way, your personal driving skill or the driving skill of the few very good drivers out there is irrelevant to this discussion.
    Oh on the contrary. Defensive driving should be cited and stressed EVERY time winter tires are mentioned anywhere. So as to emphasize, always, that winter tires are no replacement for the other. So much of the winter tires advertising is sold as magic stopping, aversion, accident avoidance. Like you've got a supreme force field of magic. None of which is even relevant if the driver is inattentive, not paying full attention, not aware, not anticipating. Basically any time Winter tires come up in discussion or advertising they are described as basically safety inoculation. Which is a bunch of balderdash and even dangerous.

    What commercial that you've ever seen on winter tires points out that even with them that you will still have more difficulty stopping than under usual summer road conditions with any tire? The discussion, and portrayal of winter tires almost invariably seems to trump what they bring to the table. This is done PURPOSELY by the industry. It is irresponsible portrayal.
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  33. #233
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    ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^

    just drive into the curb or a windrow? you'll only screw up your alignment. and maybe a body panel or three.

    spending how much to avoid the nominal cost of snow tires?

    all the studies and statistics indicate the real benefit of snow tires to the general population in the same way as vaccination does for polio. even those who would not have contracted the disease benefit.

    you counter the overall need and benefit by insisting that your own experience - a sample size of one - and apocryphal storytelling is proof that all the studies and statistics are wrong.

    if anyone else did that on any other topic from sports to drug addiction and harm reduction, you would be all over them like an anvil on the blacksmith’s shop floor.
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  34. #234

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    It's like denying climate change because you felt cold today.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

    As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
    One thing is that the average walking speed is around 5km/hr. Not sure where you get 1-3 from. Even in mountain terrain hiking I do up to 5km hr, faster on standard sidewalks. But again bipeds plant with one small foot at any given time. A very minute portion on road surface. Conversely in winter I deflate tires slightly. You got 4 tires on road surface at any given time and easily as much as 10 times the rubber to surface contact. Plus you got far superior tread even on All seasons than you have walking. Basically any all season made does far better on icy inclines than any boot would. Next the vector force of the vehicle is down and forward. You easily impact how much vector force by simply driving a little slower when necessary thus drastically impacting stopping distance. When walking it doesn't matter. ANY speed of walking can result in falls if the conditions are absolutely slippery. Because again sidewalks often have no applicant applied and are often not maintained at all. City roads are.

    (…)
    You quibble about the average pedestrian taking care on icy sidewalks, simply sauntering on a summer's day (1-3 km/h) and then ignore the obvious momentum differences between Joe Schmuckatoli and the average Buick?

    I get it. You don't want to equip yourself with the best tools when you drive. Neither do far too many others. I'll take my approach any day - get the right tool, and the best tool you can afford, for the job. All seasons/3 seasons need not apply for my winter vehicles. Never. I've said this many times in this thread and others...one set of Blizzaks in my old RWD 1/2 ton, and I was cured of this "all seasons are just as good" malarkey.
    President and CEO - Airshow.

  36. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^

    just drive into the curb or a windrow? you'll only screw up your alignment. and maybe a body panel or three.

    spending how much to avoid the nominal cost of snow tires?

    all the studies and statistics indicate the real benefit of snow tires to the general population in the same way as vaccination does for polio. even those who would not have contracted the disease benefit.

    you counter the overall need and benefit by insisting that your own experience - a sample size of one - and apocryphal storytelling is proof that all the studies and statistics are wrong.

    if anyone else did that on any other topic from sports to drug addiction and harm reduction, you would be all over them like an anvil on the blacksmith’s shop floor.
    Almost all the studies are Sponsored or vested interest.

    Most of it is just backing an industry.


    The difference between All Seasons tires and Former Summer tires was radical, an absolute game changer. Cut stopping distances in half. The difference between All Seasons and Winter tires on standard road conditions is slight in comparison.

    But heres the kicker. Any of the "testing" that I've seen involves an oval icetrack or some such thing that does not match common urban real world driving conditions. So I repeat wondering how much difference in stopping starting there is in real road conditions. I guess if I wanted to rally drive on an oval icetrack I would get winter tires to do it if I wanted to win or something. But that's not my goal when winter driving. it isn't heavy to the metal, its getting to every destination safe, which I do.

    I've driven into a curb or berm 2-3 times in my driving career and only as an assisted stop in which I was already slowing down. So that the curb impact was insignificant but stopped what would otherwise be say 20 feet of forward motion. At worst an alignment at that low speed and yes MUCH cheaper than buying a lifetime supply of winter tires and winter rims.

    Are you really not differentiating between actual science and paid and invested studies. I draw a distinction, maybe you don't.
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018 at 09:12 AM.
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  37. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

    As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
    One thing is that the average walking speed is around 5km/hr. Not sure where you get 1-3 from. Even in mountain terrain hiking I do up to 5km hr, faster on standard sidewalks. But again bipeds plant with one small foot at any given time. A very minute portion on road surface. Conversely in winter I deflate tires slightly. You got 4 tires on road surface at any given time and easily as much as 10 times the rubber to surface contact. Plus you got far superior tread even on All seasons than you have walking. Basically any all season made does far better on icy inclines than any boot would. Next the vector force of the vehicle is down and forward. You easily impact how much vector force by simply driving a little slower when necessary thus drastically impacting stopping distance. When walking it doesn't matter. ANY speed of walking can result in falls if the conditions are absolutely slippery. Because again sidewalks often have no applicant applied and are often not maintained at all. City roads are.

    (…)
    You quibble about the average pedestrian taking care on icy sidewalks, simply sauntering on a summer's day (1-3 km/h) and then ignore the obvious momentum differences between Joe Schmuckatoli and the average Buick?

    I get it. You don't want to equip yourself with the best tools when you drive. Neither do far too many others. I'll take my approach any day - get the right tool, and the best tool you can afford, for the job. All seasons/3 seasons need not apply for my winter vehicles. Never. I've said this many times in this thread and others...one set of Blizzaks in my old RWD 1/2 ton, and I was cured of this "all seasons are just as good" malarkey.
    Like I say I had two rentals with Winter tires and barely noticed a difference. many people support similar experience. I actually found the winter tires somewhat clumsy, they handled differently, not appreciably better, I actually found the driving experience somewhat worse.

    But again for something that you're indicating should be considered a necessity most Rental firms don't even have equipped winter tires as an option.


    In anycase the biggest cause of accidents and fatal accidents are things like inattentive driving, speeding, driving intoxicated, driving recklessly and interestingly theres more driving fatalities in summer months than any other time of year. By an often large margin.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  38. #238

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    rental cars rarely have winter tires, and if they did, I'm not sure how you can tell the difference. Did you drive the same car will all seasons on?

    It's weird that you advocate for good winter footwear, but not good winter tires.

  39. #239

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    Actually I did drive the same rental with and without winter tires on. I had a lemon vehicle that would break down a lot during warranty. The shop paid for my rental all the time but at the same place so I had the same rental about 7 times. Once with winter tires.

    Also driven the dealership courtesy Hyundai Genesis with and without winter tires.

    Not much difference ins stopping and starting noted on either. I specifically took both to an area where I could test and play a bit.

    I specifically wanted the winter tires and asked for them out of curiosity. I'm still interested. They weren't blizzaks. Maybe the Winter Tires used were not the best. They were winters. Is there ample difference in quality of those?



    heres something that hasn't been noted. Since converting to SUV from compact with same all seasons I have noticed a quantum difference in handling due to weight. Lighter vehicles sail a lot more on ice than heavier SUV's It seems you need a certain amount of vehicular weight to get some requisite weight on tires, regardless of what tire. for instance you could put winter tires on a smart car and it still something that should never be driven in winter.


    I advocate for good winter footwear because in walking people easily fall down on ice. Accidents DUE to icy roads (and only due to that condition) are less common. Good tread when walking just makes sense because of slipping. All seasons do fine.
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018 at 09:48 AM.
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  40. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

    As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
    One thing is that the average walking speed is around 5km/hr. Not sure where you get 1-3 from. Even in mountain terrain hiking I do up to 5km hr, faster on standard sidewalks. But again bipeds plant with one small foot at any given time. A very minute portion on road surface. Conversely in winter I deflate tires slightly. You got 4 tires on road surface at any given time and easily as much as 10 times the rubber to surface contact. Plus you got far superior tread even on All seasons than you have walking. Basically any all season made does far better on icy inclines than any boot would. Next the vector force of the vehicle is down and forward. You easily impact how much vector force by simply driving a little slower when necessary thus drastically impacting stopping distance. When walking it doesn't matter. ANY speed of walking can result in falls if the conditions are absolutely slippery. Because again sidewalks often have no applicant applied and are often not maintained at all. City roads are.

    (…)
    You quibble about the average pedestrian taking care on icy sidewalks, simply sauntering on a summer's day (1-3 km/h) and then ignore the obvious momentum differences between Joe Schmuckatoli and the average Buick?

    I get it. You don't want to equip yourself with the best tools when you drive. Neither do far too many others. I'll take my approach any day - get the right tool, and the best tool you can afford, for the job. All seasons/3 seasons need not apply for my winter vehicles. Never. I've said this many times in this thread and others...one set of Blizzaks in my old RWD 1/2 ton, and I was cured of this "all seasons are just as good" malarkey.
    Like I say I had two rentals with Winter tires and barely noticed a difference. many people support similar experience. I actually found the winter tires somewhat clumsy, they handled differently, not appreciably better, I actually found the driving experience somewhat worse.

    But again for something that you're indicating should be considered a necessity most Rental firms don't even have equipped winter tires as an option.


    In anycase the biggest cause of accidents and fatal accidents are things like inattentive driving, speeding, driving intoxicated, driving recklessly and interestingly theres more driving fatalities in summer months than any other time of year. By an often large margin.
    You can't compare how a rental car drove unless it was identical to the car you drive now, and you know 100% for sure that the winter tires were in decent condition.

    In the end, it's your car, your choice, and it's perfectly legal. But the whole point in people objecting is to be sure you are aware that you're knowingly driving with tires that are less capable on snow and ice. That fact can't be argued. After that, it's all up to you to live with your choice and any consequences involved.

    You mentioned calling in sick when the roads are bad, which just enforces your acknowledgement that your all-seasons aren't sufficient in bad conditions. I've never called in sick because of road conditions and I've had no problems getting to where I need to go by driving according to the conditions. I'm very well able to stay in control and not worry about ending up in a ditch.

    As I said, in the end, it's your decision, but I'm still 100% for making winter tires mandatory.

  41. #241
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    Bought a new truck recently. It has the Michelin Primacy M+S tires. I am wondering if a studded winter tire is worth it from Nov-Mar.

  42. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I've always wondered how this will work when sensors are obscured by build up.

    As for the shoe vs tire conversation, one is a 80kg bipedal object moving at 1-3 km/h, the other is a 3000kg object moving at 50km/h or greater. I firmly believe I am a defensively minded driver, but I procure tools to assist me in case I need them. Winter emergency kits and winter tires fit this mold. An ounce of prevention...
    One thing is that the average walking speed is around 5km/hr. Not sure where you get 1-3 from. Even in mountain terrain hiking I do up to 5km hr, faster on standard sidewalks. But again bipeds plant with one small foot at any given time. A very minute portion on road surface. Conversely in winter I deflate tires slightly. You got 4 tires on road surface at any given time and easily as much as 10 times the rubber to surface contact. Plus you got far superior tread even on All seasons than you have walking. Basically any all season made does far better on icy inclines than any boot would. Next the vector force of the vehicle is down and forward. You easily impact how much vector force by simply driving a little slower when necessary thus drastically impacting stopping distance. When walking it doesn't matter. ANY speed of walking can result in falls if the conditions are absolutely slippery. Because again sidewalks often have no applicant applied and are often not maintained at all. City roads are.

    (…)
    You quibble about the average pedestrian taking care on icy sidewalks, simply sauntering on a summer's day (1-3 km/h) and then ignore the obvious momentum differences between Joe Schmuckatoli and the average Buick?

    I get it. You don't want to equip yourself with the best tools when you drive. Neither do far too many others. I'll take my approach any day - get the right tool, and the best tool you can afford, for the job. All seasons/3 seasons need not apply for my winter vehicles. Never. I've said this many times in this thread and others...one set of Blizzaks in my old RWD 1/2 ton, and I was cured of this "all seasons are just as good" malarkey.
    Like I say I had two rentals with Winter tires and barely noticed a difference. many people support similar experience. I actually found the winter tires somewhat clumsy, they handled differently, not appreciably better, I actually found the driving experience somewhat worse.

    But again for something that you're indicating should be considered a necessity most Rental firms don't even have equipped winter tires as an option.


    In anycase the biggest cause of accidents and fatal accidents are things like inattentive driving, speeding, driving intoxicated, driving recklessly and interestingly theres more driving fatalities in summer months than any other time of year. By an often large margin.
    You can't compare how a rental car drove unless it was identical to the car you drive now, and you know 100% for sure that the winter tires were in decent condition.

    In the end, it's your car, your choice, and it's perfectly legal. But the whole point in people objecting is to be sure you are aware that you're knowingly driving with tires that are less capable on snow and ice. That fact can't be argued. After that, it's all up to you to live with your choice and any consequences involved.

    You mentioned calling in sick when the roads are bad, which just enforces your acknowledgement that your all-seasons aren't sufficient in bad conditions. I've never called in sick because of road conditions and I've had no problems getting to where I need to go by driving according to the conditions. I'm very well able to stay in control and not worry about ending up in a ditch.

    As I said, in the end, it's your decision, but I'm still 100% for making winter tires mandatory.
    To be clear I don't call in sick doubting my own driving. I would get to where I'm going, and back, fine and have in the worst conditions. I simply wish to avoid such days as where there are say 400 accidents. My concern being more that people will rear end me than anything else. That and a 3hr round trip commute instead of say a normal 50mins. Its simply not efficient to work on the very few days (1-3 per season) when the roads are exceedingly bad. I get paid for writing reports as well and do that at home on snow days. These end up being catch up days to get paperwork completed.

    So anyway, I'll ask again. Wht are peoples recommendations for Winter tires. Any dealerships that have the best winter tires that I can take a vehicle for a test drive? Its interesting and I'm willing to give it another try. The only reason I've tried these at all is convos like this. At least I'm making an effort.

    The difference should be remarkable, one would think, from the way Winter tires are hyped. But I hardly notice anything but that the handling is clumsier. Not as smooth a drive and cornering as with all seasons.
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018 at 10:17 AM.
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  43. #243
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    Just don't drive in the winter so you don't have to worry about them either way, that's what I do.
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  44. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Just don't drive in the winter so you don't have to worry about them either way, that's what I do.
    Soon as LRT gets here I'm on it, and will stop driving any of the time. Just done with the costs and expenses of it overall. Not that I can't afford it. I just can't rationalize the disposable concept of todays vehicles and product overkill.

    Whats the estimates now on all in average costs of driving/yr. Must be something like 8-10K now.


    Not really complaining either. Its a positive development. I actually feel that gas prices should just keep shooting up. people shouldn't be as inclined as they are to driving and air travel. It should be prohibitively expensive. Its the only way to reduce these carbon footprints and dependency. Wrong thread I realize...
    Last edited by Replacement; 31-08-2018 at 11:25 AM.
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  45. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Bought a new truck recently. It has the Michelin Primacy M+S tires. I am wondering if a studded winter tire is worth it from Nov-Mar.
    I don't find studded are necessary since we don't get much glare ice in the city. This of course is all depending on your experiences where you drive. The downside of studs are they actually reduce traction on pavement since the studs subtract from your rubber-on-road footprint. They also offer no benefit in snow. Stating that, if the driving you do involves driving on sheet or chunky ice very often, then I would recommend studded. Otherwise you'll do fine with studless, and as I also drive a truck, I can say that winter tires make a big difference being RWD and light in the rear, even though I do have 4x4 and use it often. See below this post for recommendations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So anyway, I'll ask again. Wht are peoples recommendations for Winter tires. Any dealerships that have the best winter tires that I can take a vehicle for a test drive? Its interesting and I'm willing to give it another try. The only reason I've tried these at all is convos like this. At least I'm making an effort.

    The difference should be remarkable, one would think, from the way Winter tires are hyped. But I hardly notice anything but that the handling is clumsier. Not as smooth a drive and cornering as with all seasons.
    My #1 recommendation is BFGoodrich Winter Slalom KSI, which I currently use, and will use again for my next set. Others that are really great and not too expensive are Hankook I-Pikes which are suddable if you require it. The best budget tires I've ever used are MultiMile Arctic Claws available at Kal Tire and sometimes Canadian Tire and can also be found under rebranded names. If money is no object, then the Nokian brand is the top winter tire. However, they are only slightly better in reviews and testing, but the price difference is huge. I'd also recommend Continental WinterContact.

    These recommendations are all tires that I've personally used and would buy again. Some brands I wouldn't go back to because they were not as good as the ones listed above. Michelin and Goodyear are two brands where I found their winter tires to be inferior to others I've tried.

    The reason for the cornering being different is the softer compound of the rubber. The tread will flex more on turns when it's warmer out, but it still has much better grip on the surface. I find the drive itself to be smoother because of this, but cornering does feel different on dry pavement which is again a result of softer compounds that won't harden in the cold. When it is cold, the rubber doesn't flex as much, but it still remains more flexible than all-season and summer tires.

  46. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^

    just drive into the curb or a windrow? you'll only screw up your alignment. and maybe a body panel or three.

    spending how much to avoid the nominal cost of snow tires?

    all the studies and statistics indicate the real benefit of snow tires to the general population in the same way as vaccination does for polio. even those who would not have contracted the disease benefit.

    you counter the overall need and benefit by insisting that your own experience - a sample size of one - and apocryphal storytelling is proof that all the studies and statistics are wrong.

    if anyone else did that on any other topic from sports to drug addiction and harm reduction, you would be all over them like an anvil on the blacksmith’s shop floor.
    Kcantor, you get the twofer deal today. I'm going to try to answer this better today. You're correct. I believe in harm reduction. But I believe in things that significantly impact harm reduction. I specifically brought up a comparison in the thread, that people often don't wear adequate footwear, city doesn't tend sidewalks, homeowners often don't, So that there is literally negligible harm reduction on that issue, which is actually more salient, the injuries often more severe.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...data-1.4460651

    So I wander into threads like this, purposely, and hear such things as I'm being irresponsible, might harm other people through not having winter tires (even though I don't harm other people) and I get lectured by any majority that uses winter tires. A majority that doesn't do so much as clear, sand, treat their own sidewalks. Well heres the deal. MORE walking injuries are PROVEN to occur due to bad and slippery roads and sidewalks. Its indisputable, the slippery conditions were the MECHANISM of injury. Find me a dozen traffic accidents a year in Alberta where lack of winter tires was cited as the mechanism of injury. Or wherein that alone made the difference. I'll respond by showing you information on how many people die or are injured through slips and falls (many seniors die due to a hip injury within 1-2 yrs of having that injury)


    How many parents teach their kids properly about harm reduction drug use. How many carefully differentiate between "don't use drugs" plurality and Don't take harmful drugs specificity and carefully explaining why? Take a glance at the opioid fatality stats in Alberta sometime. Compare that severity to winter accident fatalities.


    As a public health practitioner/counselor what boggles my mind is how much energy is focused on one endeavor, putting on winter tires, that makes a slight difference over all seasons radials (which are better tires than they are given credit for) but that much less effective intervention is placed on things like falling on ice (Which is most prevalent in Alberta and largely due to how deplorable are sidewalk surfaces are.) little progress on Opioid crisis, immunization.

    It is interesting that a higher proportion of adults will put on winter tires than will wear a helmet while cycling. I even think people commonly ignore other risks and feel like they are proactive because they put on one of the most meaningless prophylactics that makes relatively speaking, not much difference in injuries or fatalities.

    So yes Ken, I believe in harm reduction. I wear helmets, I wear seatbelts, I get immunized, I wear the best winter footwear available. I clear and treat mine, and neighbor sidewalks judiciously EVERY time. I get immunized, I get regular medical check ups. I believe in those things because I know them to make a significant difference. I haven't been convinced that Winter tires is such an immediate issue requiring my diligence. Again because its indeterminate what amount of injuries/deaths etc are ACTUALLY due to the difference between winter tires vs All seasons radials. The only reporting information you will see in accident reports is "road conditions" Not whether winter tires would have been sufficient to avoid somebody wiping out on black ice at 60k per hour..

    I can take one step outside on the wrong day and slip. As many people do. and people often slip on one of the first outside steps they make. Tragically often on their OWN or nearby sidewalk. So that it immediately reinforces that WALKING on ice is dangerous. What is specifically noted in reports is that the ice caused all those injuries, indisputably. What isn't established though is that Driving on All seasons is innately dangerous. People can claim this. But they don't have any stats on what amount of accidents are actually caused by not having winter tires. Those stats largely don't exist. YEAR ROUND most accidents are caused by such things as driver inattention, intoxication, speeding, reckless driving, non safe left hand turns, etc. The majority of causes are NOT what tires the vehicle had. Indeed this information is considered so relatively insignificant the vast majority of jurisdiction do not even note this consistently in accident reports. Maybe they should (that's up for debate)


    So I'm looking for convincing information, looking for adequate information. Not silly prefabricated road tests of non typical city road surfaces.


    So shovel your walks more often people. Something I mention frequently here in Edmonton. That alone will do more public good than putting on winter tires.
    Last edited by Replacement; 01-09-2018 at 06:05 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  47. #247
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    ^

    adding yet more conflation does nothing to support your position...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  48. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    adding yet more conflation does nothing to support your position...


    How about substance. I've researched this often.


    You want me to start giving some numbers to cite how negligible any harm reduction gain is from use of Winter tires vs other much more serious and life threatening concerns facing Albertans?

    OK, In a recent year,(2016) in Alberta 2 fatalities in the whole province were denoted to be caused by "Tire failure" which is the only thing cited even remotely related to tires. (Most of these being blowouts) This is out of 347 fatalities. Further only 34 of these fatalities even involved road conditions denoted to be slush/ice and this representing 10% of the total. Maybe of those 1 or 2 could have been prevented with better winter tires. Hard to say because again the figures don't denote that. As per always the vast majority of traffic accidents are caused by what they are always caused by. Dangerous driving, inattentive driving, impaired driving, unsafe driver actions, speeding, reckless driving. Which winter tires don't prevent..

    meanwhile something like this;

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4421463/a...ntanyl-deaths/


    So 2 fatalities EVERY DAY due to OD's in the province.


    The reason I conflate this is in the scheme of things Winter tire usage is a relatively negligible concern yet people are "panicked (words used even in this thread) to get their winter tires on.

    Plus lets be clear here. I conflated in response to YOUR conflation about my general feelings on harm reduction. fair?

    Or you want to argue some more?


    or are you going to cede with another one line reply ( humorously intended taunt)


    Hey, my stance aside I think jurisdictions SHOULD be collecting more traffic information than they are. I think just as a point of interest they should at least monitor or denote which % of vehicles were using Winter vs all seasons etc. I mean they even denote use of seat belts in almost all instances. Wouldn't you think that winter tire usage should be more commonly tracked information in accident reports that is readily made available?


    I require a bit more ACTUAL real world information in which to ascertain Winter tires making any appreciable difference in the real world. Because unlike the commercials I don't have snow monsters or trees, or goblins jumping out at me that I have to avoid in pinpoint steering precision while innocent children are depicted smiling in the backseat. Basically the adds use any bs they can to try to convince people to use Winter tires. To me any time I'm being duped with adds like this I'm wondering why they don't provide better information.


    The real world circumstance urban drivers face is roads that are heavily maintained, almost constantly maintained, and wherein people don't commonly jump under your winter (or any) tires...
    Last edited by Replacement; 01-09-2018 at 09:30 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  49. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    adding yet more conflation does nothing to support your position...


    How about substance. I've researched this often.


    You want me to start giving some numbers to cite how negligible any harm reduction gain is from use of Winter tires vs other much more serious and life threatening concerns facing Albertans?

    OK, In a recent year,(2016) in Alberta 2 fatalities in the whole province were denoted to be caused by "Tire failure" which is the only thing cited even remotely related to tires. (Most of these being blowouts) This is out of 347 fatalities. Further only 34 of these fatalities even involved road conditions denoted to be slush/ice and this representing 10% of the total. Maybe of those 1 or 2 could have been prevented with better winter tires. Hard to say because again the figures don't denote that. As per always the vast majority of traffic accidents are caused by what they are always caused by. Dangerous driving, inattentive driving, impaired driving, unsafe driver actions, speeding, reckless driving. Which winter tires don't prevent..

    meanwhile something like this;

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4421463/a...ntanyl-deaths/


    So 2 fatalities EVERY DAY due to OD's in the province.


    The reason I conflate this is in the scheme of things Winter tire usage is a relatively negligible concern yet people are "panicked (words used even in this thread) to get their winter tires on.

    Plus lets be clear here. I conflated in response to YOUR conflation about my general feelings on harm reduction. fair?

    Or you want to argue some more?


    or are you going to cede with another one line reply ( humorously intended taunt)


    Hey, my stance aside I think jurisdictions SHOULD be collecting more traffic information than they are. I think just as a point of interest they should at least monitor or denote which % of vehicles were using Winter vs all seasons etc. I mean they even denote use of seat belts in almost all instances. Wouldn't you think that winter tire usage should be more commonly tracked information in accident reports that is readily made available?


    I require a bit more ACTUAL real world information in which to ascertain Winter tires making any appreciable difference in the real world. Because unlike the commercials I don't have snow monsters or trees, or goblins jumping out at me that I have to avoid in pinpoint steering precision while innocent children are depicted smiling in the backseat. Basically the adds use any bs they can to try to convince people to use Winter tires. To me any time I'm being duped with adds like this I'm wondering why they don't provide better information.


    The real world circumstance urban drivers face is roads that are heavily maintained, almost constantly maintained, and wherein people don't commonly jump under your winter (or any) tires...
    Sort of like fighting speeding, playground zone speed limits, dedicated bike lanes, worrying about water quality at beaches...

  50. #250

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    ^Is it?

    The first two are mitigations that anybody can abide by at no additional extra cost. If the Govt says I have to slow down in certain zones I'll question the need, for instance the rarity of such fatality or collision in such areas in the first place and the further rarity of how many of those had 50k speed as the cause. But I'll abide. Doesn't cost me anything extra to and I don't have to make inordinate ongoing efforts at great expense to follow through.

    With Winter tires I question how much public health benefit is actually obtained. Interestingly so do accident investigations in any reporting jurisdiction I have seen. They all track seat belt usage, because seat belts are a largely confirmed safety feature. Easy to understand as well that you have less chance of getting killed if your body isn't projected head first through the windshield into any hard object that cracks it open.. But the investigations of accidents, which often spend hours determining 100s of potential factors don't even mention the presence of snow tires in reporting. Its not even considered important enough to put it into the accident report or the statistics. Which is too bad as that would be the most salient information regarding winter tire significance in actual world conditions and actual world accidents.. I WANT to see that type of information. Its what its going to take to convince me of there being salient benefit served.


    Dedicated bike lanes I'm all in favor of as I'm in favor of pedestrian overpasses, pedestrian ROW, freeways, ring roads, multi use paths and more things that separate vehicles from pedestrians. THAT is good planning.


    AS far as why I post on some of the themes is I have a natural and career interest in public safety. By all SURFACE reasons I should be a natural advocate of Winter tires. Should be, but unlike other things where its easy to see the public benefit of harm reduction, its not so clear how much harm is lessened through the mandated usage of winter tires in a City like Edmonton in the province of Alberta.


    I want actual real world data substantiation. Actual accident data citing tires.
    Last edited by Replacement; 01-09-2018 at 09:57 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  51. #251

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    I am needing winter tires for my new Honda Civic Touring. It has 215/50R17 for summer and I took the 16" rims for winter and pothole season 215/55R16

    I have been running Michelin X-Ice Xi3's on my previous car and the Subaru Outback.

    Any suggestions for the Honda?

    Looking at the BFG Winter T/A KSI or the Continental WinterContact SI but open to suggestions or links to tire tests.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    If you don't want to change tires, just get ALL-WEATHER tires... (not to be confused with ALL-SEASON which is really just 3 seasons). If you can't afford tires, take a bus. You shouldn't be driving on the road if you are a hazard to yourself and others. No, driving slower than everyone else is not a safety tactic, its very hazardous.
    So are those who put their faith in ABS,4 wheel drive,traction control,winter tires,antilock, autonomous braking,ect ect ect are LESS a risk? INSTEAD of ensuring they can drive a vehicle with the knowledge and skills necessary to do so properly. Considering the number of problems after a snowfall in this city, I'd say it's a gross lack of skill and NOT a lack of snow tires causing the problems. All the technology is wonderful ONLY of one KNOWS how to drive ..In the first place. I'll give you an example. Would you knowingly board an aircraft if the pilot did not have commensurate skills to fly it without the FMS?(For the layman...Flight management system.)In other words,if the flight computer failed and the pilots had to hand fly it and they didn't have the knowledge to do so, does it make it any safer having a flight management computer? ABS,4 wheel drive,traction control,winter tires,antilock,autonomous braking do NOT prevent BAD drivers from having pile ups.We see it EVERY time we get snow, or freezing rain. Solution...Mandatory winter training for every new driver and any foreigner wishing to drive here. Govt road and knowledge tests.Re test for every one regardless of class every 5 years. If you fail, you can re test once. Fail again, you must take re training until you pass. Focus should get back to the bad drivers and their LACK of skill and less on the training wheel solutions to bad driving.
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  53. #253

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    Hard to say. Maybe the accidents are being caused by people driving on worn down all season tires, older low tech vehicles etc. Who collects such stats?

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