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Thread: Jason Kenney and UCP performance - post election catch all NOW CLOSED

  1. #101

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    Atco had just finished a salt cavern storage facility out north of the Scotford refineries. In fact there are 2 new ones to the West of Bruderhime. I did some work on all of them. I believe these are NG storage facilities. Didn't Kenny say, any solution for storage curtailment or shipping should come from Private industry since they know best.

  2. #102

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    Except they don't, at least not with the provincial economy and the total market in mind.
    The production curtailment was absolutely the best policy for this province, for prices and for the majority of producers, but it needed the government to make it happen.
    There can only be one.

  3. #103

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    So some hopefully balanced counter-arguments:

    First, let's dismiss the "we had a gun, now it has no bullet" argument on bill 12. Even Notley's message makes it clear the gun didn't have any bullets to begin with. Why did She pass the bill? Same thing like what Kenney is doing here, to signal willingness to retaliate.
    Second, let's dismiss the claim, if Notley was elected, pipeline was certain. To the contrary. Who challenged the pipeline, eventually succeeding to get the courts to stop it? Environment interest groups, the same audience that Notley were supposed to convince not to oppose the pipeline by the way of a social license argument (implementing carbon tax and environment policies, such as emission caps etc.). So her strategy did fail, the pipeline was challenged in court and it is now stopped. And there is no realistic evidence those obstacles were to evaporate should she be re-elected. BC was looking at all possible options, regardless of who is Premier. Meanwhile, Notley also didn't have a coherent strategy to deal with BC. She started a wine embargo, then backed off without any clear success in improving Alberta's interests. Lack of experience in action (Bill 12 legislation, wine embargo, failed social license).
    Third: Notley did all of us a favor by tying the federal government's hand to the pipeline. Credit were it is due. It was the best solution given the court decision. Where the benefits of this solution fail is that the pipeline now is a political football. Trudeau has no incentive to give Kenney an easy win. (and No, if Notley was elected, it was the same. Trudeau needs left-wing voter support and is unlikely to go ahead with the pipeline ahead of election). So look for the feds to find excuses with more thorough consultations to postpone the approval beyond federal election date.

    Now to Kenney and his strategy:

    First, while it is more comforting to shout partisan rhetoric (oh he is approving of some of Notley's works, oh he failed to close the taps), we all know he is doing the right thing not to turn off the tap immediately and allow room for political maneuvering. Doing politics from dogmatic high grounds is a recipe for failure. He is experienced, so let's give him some time. If he gets it right, we all benefit.
    Second, why he proclaimed bill 12 then? I said in previous post, we simply don't know. It is highly unlikely he didn't grasp the obvious ramifications (it was no secret BC was waiting to fight it in court). So again, we need to be patient to see his strategy over the next year. When I say we don't know, it also includes a scenario where we might end up realizing he did make a basic mistake and was simply gambling with bill 12, and if so, there are future elections to toss him out of office.

  4. #104
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    I like what he has said to the Senate, and how he's said it. If, or when, he follows through, they cannot say they didn't have fair warning.. Good on him!
    Animals are my passion.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    So some hopefully balanced counter-arguments:

    First, let's dismiss the "we had a gun, now it has no bullet" argument on bill 12. Even Notley's message makes it clear the gun didn't have any bullets to begin with. Why did She pass the bill? Same thing like what Kenney is doing here, to signal willingness to retaliate.
    Second, let's dismiss the claim, if Notley was elected, pipeline was certain. To the contrary. Who challenged the pipeline, eventually succeeding to get the courts to stop it? Environment interest groups, the same audience that Notley were supposed to convince not to oppose the pipeline by the way of a social license argument (implementing carbon tax and environment policies, such as emission caps etc.). So her strategy did fail, the pipeline was challenged in court and it is now stopped. And there is no realistic evidence those obstacles were to evaporate should she be re-elected. BC was looking at all possible options, regardless of who is Premier. Meanwhile, Notley also didn't have a coherent strategy to deal with BC. She started a wine embargo, then backed off without any clear success in improving Alberta's interests. Lack of experience in action (Bill 12 legislation, wine embargo, failed social license).
    Third: Notley did all of us a favor by tying the federal government's hand to the pipeline. Credit were it is due. It was the best solution given the court decision. Where the benefits of this solution fail is that the pipeline now is a political football. Trudeau has no incentive to give Kenney an easy win. (and No, if Notley was elected, it was the same. Trudeau needs left-wing voter support and is unlikely to go ahead with the pipeline ahead of election). So look for the feds to find excuses with more thorough consultations to postpone the approval beyond federal election date.

    Now to Kenney and his strategy:

    First, while it is more comforting to shout partisan rhetoric (oh he is approving of some of Notley's works, oh he failed to close the taps), we all know he is doing the right thing not to turn off the tap immediately and allow room for political maneuvering. Doing politics from dogmatic high grounds is a recipe for failure. He is experienced, so let's give him some time. If he gets it right, we all benefit.
    Second, why he proclaimed bill 12 then? I said in previous post, we simply don't know. It is highly unlikely he didn't grasp the obvious ramifications (it was no secret BC was waiting to fight it in court). So again, we need to be patient to see his strategy over the next year. When I say we don't know, it also includes a scenario where we might end up realizing he did make a basic mistake and was simply gambling with bill 12, and if so, there are future elections to toss him out of office.
    Great post! I always appreciate calls to reason.

    That said Kenney made his statements, loaded with action words, to obtain voter support through their action of casting a ballot for his party’s candidates.

    Therefore I enjoy posting his words to highlight his ability to use words tactfully to lead people to think certain things. (Just as it’s important to “always read the fine print”, its important to listen for the weasel words in political commentary and seeming promises.)

    As for proclaiming the Bill.

    One, he could still take action before long.

    Two, the court might highlight flaws that could be rectified in short order in order to re-enact more effective legislation.

    Three, he could enact parallel legislation to do a similar thing while one is before the courts.

    Four, it sounded great to voters as it sounded like actual action and if it has its balls cut off, Kenney can escalate the rhetoric further (separation, etc.)
    Last edited by KC; 02-05-2019 at 12:11 PM.

  6. #106

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    ^ Yes, I agree that what politicians say is important and as the electorate we need to make sure their promises are kept.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    ^ Yes, I agree that what politicians say is important and as the electorate we need to make sure their promises are kept.
    I prefer just mocking them for their silliness.

    The promises will rarely come close to reality.

  8. #108

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    We will turn off the taps, just... not yet....

    The oil sands cap will go out the window..... unless it doesnít!

    Iím not surprised by Mr. I say anything and do another... he has a long history of it but itís ok. He will he gone in 4 years of the environment to take over the federal party is there.

    We are going to repeal the NDP environmental program... o wait we meant just a few parts of it.

    I wonít complain about proper governance which this is, however; I canít agree with the campaign of scrap/reverse everything and then not doing this..... I feel like this lack of transparency will simply result in an unstable Conservative party that will fall apart after daddy Kenny passes the reins to someone else.

    Time will tell
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 02-05-2019 at 02:16 PM.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    We will turn off the taps, just... not yet....

    The oil sands cap will go out the window..... unless it doesnít!

    Iím not surprised by Mr. I say anything and do another... he has a long history of it but itís ok. He will he gone in 4 years of the environment to take over the federal party is there.

    We are going to repeal the NDP environmental program... o wait we meant just a few parts of it.

    I wonít complain about proper governance which this is, however; I canít agree with the campaign of scrap/reverse everything and then not doing this..... I feel like this lack of transparency will simply result in an unstable Conservative party that will fall apart after daddy Kenny passes the reins to someone else.

    Time will tell
    Mr. "Grassroots guarantee" sure can turn on a dime when convenient for him. I believe in the old days it used to be called flip flopping and Kenney is an expert at it. I wouldn't believe anything he said, even if or especially if he put it in writing and signed his name to guarantee it.

    Remember the old joke about how can you tell if a politician is lying - answer - his lips are moving. Kenney is throw back to that type of old time pol. It can work in the short term, but in the long term it just results in disillusionment and more cynicism.

  10. #110

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    Kenney campaigned using very aggressive rhetoric (which is always the case in elections), but now that he is in power he is being much more calculated, compromising, and diplomatic with his actions (which is politically very smart).

    Really, what are the Kenney critics complaining about?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    (Ö)

    now to kenney and his strategy:

    First, while it is more comforting to shout partisan rhetoric (oh he is approving of some of notley's works, oh he failed to close the taps), we all know he is doing the right thing not to turn off the tap immediately and allow room for political maneuvering. Doing politics from dogmatic high grounds is a recipe for failure. He is experienced, so let's give him some time. If he gets it right, we all benefit.
    Second, why he proclaimed bill 12 then? I said in previous post, we simply don't know. It is highly unlikely he didn't grasp the obvious ramifications (it was no secret bc was waiting to fight it in court). So again, we need to be patient to see his strategy over the next year. When i say we don't know, it also includes a scenario where we might end up realizing he did make a basic mistake and was simply gambling with bill 12, and if so, there are future elections to toss him out of office.
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    (Ö)

    as for proclaiming the bill.

    One, he could still take action before long.

    Two, the court might highlight flaws that could be rectified in short order in order to re-enact more effective legislation.

    Three, he could enact parallel legislation to do a similar thing while one is before the courts.

    Four, it sounded great to voters as it sounded like actual action and if it has its balls cut off, kenney can escalate the rhetoric further (separation, etc.)
    Some thoughts on the proclamation of the bill...and nice to see some nuanced thought vs the teeth gnashing rhetoric littering this thread...

    Kenney definitely knows what will happen, and probably is banking on the suit. Aides for both probably already talked, and knew the other will do what they did. That's why you saw a calm presser from both...Horgan and Kenney both saying the other will stand up for their perspective province's concerns and the courts will decide.

    Why?

    2 themes blur into one, Provincial jurisdiction vs Federal. Both Horgan and Kenney have a vested interest in this, and will want to use the courts as that impartial adjudicator....

    The expected and delivered lawsuit will test the constitutionality of the bill. . Kenney's "solution" will put the fight into the hands of the judiciary...which is where laws go to be challenged. So, KC has a point with the ability to revise or fix flaws...that will happen with the marijuana laws that will eventually hit the courts.
    If he loses...he can shrug ands say, "the courts decided"...and appeal or not...

    While Notley could have done the same thing, she still was waiting on the social license conversation to take some effect, as well as waiting out the political fallout on Horgan/Trudeau. Also a strategy...but it timed out. Not good...not bad...just is.

    Kenney brought up separation in front of the senate today...hearing that shocked me. I would have stuck to the facts presented...and I didn't hear the comment personally so I am going by second hand reports a during a meeting I had with the GoA this morning. Personally, I would be disappointed at a threat to separate...

    The other theme underlying this will be the equalization program. Shot 1...energy/resource management and inter-provincial jurisdiction. Second shot...equalization depending on how the energy conversation resolves...

    So, the suit is welcomed by both sides. It settles some facts and sets up the bigger provincial fight with the Feds...

    Just a simple opinion based on game theory...no political allegiance or endorsement implied...
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  12. #112
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    He rarely loses a coherent argument in either official language. He usually keeps his cool. His brain is a Canadian political encyclopedia; his memory almost photographic. And he doesn't share his life with traditional family obligations. He is married to politics with a single-minded orientation to preserving Conservative rule.
    Watching Kenney in the hours after his swearing-in Tuesday was to watch a political animal unleashed on his dream job. A true blue cabinet was sworn in, a tanker ban attacked, a carbon tax repeal bill announced and a dash to Ottawa booked. Most controversially of all, a legislative tap-turn-down revenge on pipeline opponent B.C. was proclaimed.

    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/pol...1_4405712.html




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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    ... while all the righties here will get a boner from him talking about it
    Hmm not me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    He rarely loses a coherent argument in either official language. He usually keeps his cool. His brain is a Canadian political encyclopedia; his memory almost photographic. And he doesn't share his life with traditional family obligations. He is married to politics with a single-minded orientation to preserving Conservative rule.
    Watching Kenney in the hours after his swearing-in Tuesday was to watch a political animal unleashed on his dream job. A true blue cabinet was sworn in, a tanker ban attacked, a carbon tax repeal bill announced and a dash to Ottawa booked. Most controversially of all, a legislative tap-turn-down revenge on pipeline opponent B.C. was proclaimed.

    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/politics/don-martin's-blog/2019/5/2/1_4405712.ht



    Wow. I don't think I've ever read anything more partisan in my life. I wonder where the writer keeps their shrine of Kenney?

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    He rarely loses a coherent argument in either official language. He usually keeps his cool. His brain is a Canadian political encyclopedia; his memory almost photographic. And he doesn't share his life with traditional family obligations. He is married to politics with a single-minded orientation to preserving Conservative rule.
    Watching Kenney in the hours after his swearing-in Tuesday was to watch a political animal unleashed on his dream job. A true blue cabinet was sworn in, a tanker ban attacked, a carbon tax repeal bill announced and a dash to Ottawa booked. Most controversially of all, a legislative tap-turn-down revenge on pipeline opponent B.C. was proclaimed.

    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/pol...1_4405712.html




    Quite a load of airy-fairy babble but Iíve read worse.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    (…)

    now to kenney and his strategy:

    First, while it is more comforting to shout partisan rhetoric (oh he is approving of some of notley's works, oh he failed to close the taps), we all know he is doing the right thing not to turn off the tap immediately and allow room for political maneuvering. Doing politics from dogmatic high grounds is a recipe for failure. He is experienced, so let's give him some time. If he gets it right, we all benefit.
    Second, why he proclaimed bill 12 then? I said in previous post, we simply don't know. It is highly unlikely he didn't grasp the obvious ramifications (it was no secret bc was waiting to fight it in court). So again, we need to be patient to see his strategy over the next year. When i say we don't know, it also includes a scenario where we might end up realizing he did make a basic mistake and was simply gambling with bill 12, and if so, there are future elections to toss him out of office.
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    (…)

    as for proclaiming the bill.

    One, he could still take action before long.

    Two, the court might highlight flaws that could be rectified in short order in order to re-enact more effective legislation.

    Three, he could enact parallel legislation to do a similar thing while one is before the courts.

    Four, it sounded great to voters as it sounded like actual action and if it has its balls cut off, kenney can escalate the rhetoric further (separation, etc.)
    Some thoughts on the proclamation of the bill...and nice to see some nuanced thought vs the teeth gnashing rhetoric littering this thread...

    Kenney definitely knows what will happen, and probably is banking on the suit. Aides for both probably already talked, and knew the other will do what they did. That's why you saw a calm presser from both...Horgan and Kenney both saying the other will stand up for their perspective province's concerns and the courts will decide.

    Why?

    2 themes blur into one, Provincial jurisdiction vs Federal. Both Horgan and Kenney have a vested interest in this, and will want to use the courts as that impartial adjudicator....

    The expected and delivered lawsuit will test the constitutionality of the bill. . Kenney's "solution" will put the fight into the hands of the judiciary...which is where laws go to be challenged. So, KC has a point with the ability to revise or fix flaws...that will happen with the marijuana laws that will eventually hit the courts.
    If he loses...he can shrug ands say, "the courts decided"...and appeal or not...

    While Notley could have done the same thing, she still was waiting on the social license conversation to take some effect, as well as waiting out the political fallout on Horgan/Trudeau. Also a strategy...but it timed out. Not good...not bad...just is.

    Kenney brought up separation in front of the senate today...hearing that shocked me. I would have stuck to the facts presented...and I didn't hear the comment personally so I am going by second hand reports a during a meeting I had with the GoA this morning. Personally, I would be disappointed at a threat to separate...

    The other theme underlying this will be the equalization program. Shot 1...energy/resource management and inter-provincial jurisdiction. Second shot...equalization depending on how the energy conversation resolves...

    So, the suit is welcomed by both sides. It settles some facts and sets up the bigger provincial fight with the Feds...

    Just a simple opinion based on game theory...no political allegiance or endorsement implied...
    A plebiscite on equalization is an interesting one. What would Alberta’s governing politicians do?

    Ask that every taxpayer and corporation withhold a percentage of their taxes or what? What’s the size of the pool and Albertans contribution above the weighted average (or whatever the allocating mechanism is)?

    He should have called them: depleting resources

    Jason Kenney promises referendum on equalization payments if feds continue to push carbon tax | Globalnews.ca


    “If the federal government continues its attacks through the National Energy Board (NEB) and the federal carbon tax, then Alberta should take a common-sense approach and hold a referendum demanding the removal of non-renewable resource revenues from the equalization formula,” Kenney said.

    The statement added this would “massively reduce Alberta’s contribution to equalization.”...”


    https://globalnews.ca/news/3846646/j...sh-carbon-tax/


    Equalization has various smoothing functions like a rolling average and a lag but it’s all from the perspective of fiscal needs. No macro-eyed academic ever gives a **** about the taxpayers. Resource extraction is a commodity business. There there is huge supply/demand and price volatility risk plus some cyclicality as discoveries, investment, development, production, etc. swing past various equilibrium states.
    Last edited by KC; 02-05-2019 at 07:09 PM.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Kenney campaigned using very aggressive rhetoric (which is always the case in elections), but now that he is in power he is being much more calculated, compromising, and diplomatic with his actions (which is politically very smart).

    Really, what are the Kenney critics complaining about?
    “aggressive rhetoric”? What sort of horse **** is that? He used a bunch of politically correct language that his loyal followers wanted to hear. That PC language implied immediate action and promises. To now call it “calculated, compromising, and diplomatic“ is just more of that horse **** PC language that the average Joe is tiring of and calling it like it is: reneging and lying.

    I voted for the UCP for various reasons but I sure had to hold my nose over the pile of promises that were dropped on the public. So I can’t stand more of this spin from the mindless “left” and “right” minions defending the crap that their favoured parties spew.
    Last edited by KC; 02-05-2019 at 07:29 PM.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Kenney brought up separation in front of the senate today...hearing that shocked me. I would have stuck to the facts presented...and I didn't hear the comment personally so I am going by second hand reports a during a meeting I had with the GoA this morning. Personally, I would be disappointed at a threat to separate...
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    I agree.

    Kenney went straight to the nuclear option in Ottawa, suggesting separation which is totally impractical. If Alberta separates, then what? Will that suddenly make Cold Lake an ocean deep water port? Will we see tanker traffic on the North Saskatchewan River? Will BC all of a sudden allow a pipeline ?

    Last time a guy named Levesque went to Ottawa and hammered his fists about separation, he lost every battle with a guy named Trudeau...

    Think about it.

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  19. #119

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    Will he have a big cartoon wheel to turn? In blue?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    He rarely loses a coherent argument in either official language. He usually keeps his cool. His brain is a Canadian political encyclopedia; his memory almost photographic. And he doesn't share his life with traditional family obligations. He is married to politics with a single-minded orientation to preserving Conservative rule.
    Watching Kenney in the hours after his swearing-in Tuesday was to watch a political animal unleashed on his dream job. A true blue cabinet was sworn in, a tanker ban attacked, a carbon tax repeal bill announced and a dash to Ottawa booked. Most controversially of all, a legislative tap-turn-down revenge on pipeline opponent B.C. was proclaimed.

    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/politics/don-martin's-blog/2019/5/2/1_4405712.ht



    Wow. I don't think I've ever read anything more partisan in my life. I wonder where the writer keeps their shrine of Kenney?
    This particular writer is a living loving leftie who has a dislike for Conservatives
    LOL..guess Jason made an impression..!!!ll
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  21. #121
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    Seeing him meet with Ford was interesting, Jason is so polished, compared with Ford. The dippers in Ontario post such terrible things about Ford, did they forget the debt Wynne left behind? Or her horse face ?
    Animals are my passion.

  22. #122

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    And the first loss on carbon tax goes to.... Saskatchewan!

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Seeing him meet with Ford was interesting, Jason is so polished, compared with Ford. The dippers in Ontario post such terrible things about Ford, did they forget the debt Wynne left behind? Or her horse face ?
    “her horse face”. I hope you’re a horse lover and that’s just a term of endearment among a horse lovers.
    Last edited by KC; 03-05-2019 at 01:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Seeing him meet with Ford was interesting, Jason is so polished, compared with Ford. The dippers in Ontario post such terrible things about Ford, did they forget the debt Wynne left behind? Or her horse face ?
    ďher horse faceĒ. I hope youíre a horse lover and thatís just a term of endearment among a horse lovers.

    Nope, have you seen her face. If people can call Ford all sorts of names, yes he is overweight, I most certainly will call Wynne horse face..okay? or should I check in, when I calls Notleys face, 10 miles of bad road..
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    Come on Moe, take this carbon tax cash grab crap , to the supreme court!
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  26. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    He rarely loses a coherent argument in either official language. He usually keeps his cool. His brain is a Canadian political encyclopedia; his memory almost photographic. And he doesn't share his life with traditional family obligations. He is married to politics with a single-minded orientation to preserving Conservative rule.
    Watching Kenney in the hours after his swearing-in Tuesday was to watch a political animal unleashed on his dream job. A true blue cabinet was sworn in, a tanker ban attacked, a carbon tax repeal bill announced and a dash to Ottawa booked. Most controversially of all, a legislative tap-turn-down revenge on pipeline opponent B.C. was proclaimed.

    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/pol...1_4405712.html

    Now that Ralph is dead, Don has to find someone new to be a toadie for.

  27. #127

  28. #128
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    I am going to close this catch all thread and split out conversations.
    Ow

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    We've had the pressure release of a catch all post election for long enough now. It is time to discuss each issue on its own merits so people can follow along.

    This thread is now permanently closed.
    Ow

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