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Thread: What gets earned in Alberta - does not stay in Alberta.

  1. #1

    Default What gets earned in Alberta - does not stay in Alberta.

    Your thoughts please.

    It seems to me that all too often What gets earned in Alberta - does not stay in Alberta.


    That people here, get work here, save here, then retire somewhere else - boosting those economies and not ours.

    That people here, demand lower taxes to save more here, to then jump ship to spend it all somewhere else - boosting those economies and not ours.

    That people here, get good jobs here, then buy vacation homes, summer homes somewhere else - boosting those economies and not ours.

    That people here, get good jobs here, then take annual vacations or even more frequent vacations somewhere else, taking big chunks of their annual discretionary spending to foreign cities, foreign resorts - boosting those economies and not ours.

    That people here demand ever greater oilsands development (resource depletion) to fund ever more wonderful lifestyles based on importing ever more foreign goods - boosting those economies and not ours.

    That people here, get good educations paid by demanding ever greater resource depletion, then move somewhere else to boost their own careers - boosting those economies and not ours.

    That people move here, get good jobs, get good levels of discretionary spending and then instead of inviting their friends and family here, they frequently travel back to their mother-provinces and mother-countries - boosting those economies and not ours.

    More...?



    ... that we all rationalize strip mining Alberta’s wealth and somehow shipping it all abroad.
    Last edited by KC; 19-04-2019 at 07:54 AM.

  2. #2

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    Earned in Alberta, but spent in BC:

    “ a whopping 25 per cent of the B.C. tourist economy is provided by Albertans, and if one includes summer homes it’s even more.”


    I say take a holiday in Alberta, buy a summer home - in Alberta.


    Opinion: Take a holiday where you are appreciated — and it’s not B.C. | Calgary Herald
    WILL VERBOVEN
    March 2, 2019

    “Most folks do road trips but many maintain vacation homes in B.C. In fact, a whopping 25 per cent of the B.C. tourist economy is provided by Albertans, and if one includes summer homes it’s even more.

    But I suspect many Albertans may be feeling a sense of resentment from the attitudes of some holier-than-though B.C. residents. Many self-righteous B.C. green devotees see Albertans as rapacious oil industry intruders out to destroy their pristine and innocent province. But the inconvenient truth is that the extensive carbon footprint of most B.C. citizens, and much of their economy, smells of environmental hypocrisy. Still, a rabid green lobby business and a duplicitous B.C. NDP government continue to stoke anti-Alberta attitudes. It’s ironic — Alberta contributes hundreds of millions of dollars to the B.C. economy, but in turn they bite the hand that feeds them.“

    https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...nd-its-not-b-c


  3. #3

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    the engine of economic life is "import-replacement." see:

    What Jane Jacobs Can Teach Us About the Economy



    What Jane Jacobs Can Teach Us About the Economy
    | Pacific Standard
    2009

    “In the landmark The Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jacobs called out the folly of urban "improvement" projects that left city districts barren. (Who guessed that people liked to see their neighbors, and that vacant courtyards and hallways invited crime?) In the same way, her 1984 book, Cities and the Wealth of Nations, zeroes in on how well-intended subsidies can deplete growth and block innovation. Wealth, she argues, is not merely a matter of assets but rather the capacity to 1) engage those assets in production and 2) adapt to changing circumstances and needs.

    According to Jacobs, the engine of economic life is "import-replacement." What this somewhat clunky term means is making the products you have been buying. For example, much of New England, where I live, is rich in hardwood forest. But there is no large-scale furniture manufacturing here. Aside from what a few artisans produce for a mostly upscale market, it's imported: Our tables, chairs and bed frames are made from fast-growing trees in Southeast Asia, shipped over and stained to look like oak, maple or cherry. If made here, we'd no longer be dependent on furniture from elsewhere; workers here would apply their own innovations to create their own products and techniques and we'd have more products to trade with other places. ...”


    “Cities and the Wealth of Nations came out 25 years ago. But the dynamics described are eerily familiar. Take, for instance, what Jacobs called "transactions of decline" — trade encouraged to prop up the economy. An example she uses is ongoing, entrenched military production. This appears productive, but it sucks the oxygen out of the economy. Innovation and entrepreneurship (import-replacing processes) slow down, there's less inter-city trade to spark new products and ideas, and the economy loses complexity and the ability to adapt. Entire regions become dependent on military spending; ...”



    https://psmag.com/economics/what-jan...e-economy-3383



    “Transactions of decline” I’d say that airport passenger numbers that reflect more flights out and back vs in and out reflect a lot of leakage from our economy. Would be nice if most trips out were to increase our exports of goods and services exchange for their wealth.
    Last edited by KC; 19-04-2019 at 09:19 AM.

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    Wow, this one runs deep. ...and no, I am not being facitious.

    ...many, if not all of these, drive my actions. I am not sure how to sum this up in a simple response in an online forum.

    The overall theme to me is that there needs to be a reason to stay. That is the crucial portion that Alberta has not developed.

    We are not blessed with a nice coastline, or temperate climate norms. Yet, a lot of our thinking and design revolves around believing that we are San Francisco, or San Diego. We don't really embrace the realities of this and instead gloss over the realities to the point that at times...it is laughable.

    As we get older (and I am starting to be living proof of this clichť), tolerating the extremes in climate is harder. My bones ache. Yes, we used to laugh at our fathers when they were grumpy sods, but now that I am older, yep, I understand why. When it s -30, well, everything $%^@!! hurts. So, retiring elsewhere has that attraction. Now, embracing the weather and designing for it has helped me as I have designed my current residence to work with the realities of our climate...but still....OW.

    As for taking a large amount of our discretionary income and spending it on foreign travel, I would say that is not unique to here. If it was, there would not be the multi-trillion dollar tourism industry. People want to see the world. People should be encouraged to see the world.

    A detriment to us is our youth when it comes to "exotic" travel. We are simply just to darn young. We don't have thousands of years of history, nor monuments to early architectural achievements. No Notre Dame. No Sphinx. No Mesopotamia. No Wailing Wall. We also have not had the luxury of current monuments like the Statue of Liberty, the Empire State Building, heck not even a CN tower. We have a nice city, with a nice river running through it, with some great Native history, European settlements, and rocks and trees and trees and rocks and rocks and trees and trees and rocks and waterrrrrrrrrrrr. Click on the link. Through humour...the reality is explained...

    Importing foreign goods comes from a duopoly of international trade realities, and simply the size of the Canadian market vs everyone else. A huge country with figuratively no one living in it...

    Careers...well, the companies that people want to work for...are simply not here. Attracting them is difficult. It is not just some equation like tax breaks. Nor is it as simple as a flight to San Francisco and bike lanes as the last State of the City speech would have you believe. See above...


    Flying back home. I won't fault anyone on that. However, I also know that it does work both ways and people do come here to visit family/friends. I do so on a regular basis. But..again...getting someone to come here in January is an interesting feat. I know I have tried to get a couple conferences to come here, and I get a sneer and a response of WTF for? Seriously. I suggested it to an audience of peers, and the response was, "the only reason I come to Edmonton is because you pay me." It hurt initially, but then you think about it.

    "the only reason I come to Edmonton is because you pay me."




    Yes, nuances exist...but that callous and off the cuff, unrehearsed statement made by US and Canadian business execs is probably the best thesis statement that explains you questions. Fixing that perception is the key.
    President and CEO - Edmonton Airshow. Soon to rebrand to something global.

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    As someone I once new would say “Why did you get off the train HERE?”
    Edmonton needs to reach a critical mass before it becomes attractive to outside investors otherwise we are no better than a one industry town without the complexity of social or industrial necessities to support them. I have heard people from central Canada and elsewhere say “so what do people around here do for entertainment?” We are so remote comparatively speaking you cannot go for a drive to anywhere interesting for the day. This means we have to be largely self contained with a multitude of options of things to do.
    What happens in Edmonton stays in Edmonton. Whether it is a new refinery or the largest cultural event of it’s kind in North America people outside our region are oblivious to it. When the majority of people doing a cross country tour don’t even give Edmonton a second thought because of geographical reasons you really have to give them a reason to come and stay.
    By all accounts the AI program at the U ofA is one of the best in the world based on the numbers of publications they produce. Getting an industry to develop around it is becoming a huge challenge one that I am not convinced we can win. The graduating students find far greener pastures elsewhere and getting experienced professionals to move here is almost an impossible task.
    ďCanada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,Ē-Marshall McLuhan

  6. #6

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    I’d like to think we’re all much better off here in Alberta for our global travels but I just don’t see it. Must be one of those intangibles.

    It’s just that a week or two in Mexico, or Palm Springs, Vegas, etc. does what to our entrepreneurial, technical or export capabilities?

    How many more barrels of oil do we have to export for every $3 or $4 grand spent somewhere else on hotels, booze and entertainment?
    Last edited by KC; 19-04-2019 at 06:08 PM.

  7. #7

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    ^ I think you have the equation backwards. We are not better off because of travels. We are better off because Albertaís high pay and low costs, which allows people to save and travel, is the attraction that brings inter-provincial migration to help the economy to grow. People in Vancouver or Toronto might be happy to be living in a world class city, but canít easily save in the face of sky-high costs. Other migrants from smaller cities in neighbouring provinces also move in and contribute to Albertaís economy in the hope of getting ahead in life. Isnít this the Canadian dream? I saw this article in the Globe yesterday: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ere-they-dont/

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    ^ I think you have the equation backwards. We are not better off because of travels. We are better off because Alberta’s high pay and low costs, which allows people to save and travel, is the attraction that brings inter-provincial migration to help the economy to grow. People in Vancouver or Toronto might be happy to be living in a world class city, but can’t easily save in the face of sky-high costs. Other migrants from smaller cities in neighbouring provinces also move in and contribute to Alberta’s economy in the hope of getting ahead in life. Isn’t this the Canadian dream? I saw this article in the Globe yesterday: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...ere-they-dont/
    Nope not backwards. I think that the ideas about a growing economy are largely misunderstood. I do understand that people’s concerns are largely limited to their own desires as in: “to save and travel”. That desire does bring people here and travel is thus an expected and natural result. In fact, people will come here that don’t even want to come here, or stay here permanently but they come for a higher quality of life, to save money and to be able to both travel and to eventually leave here with those savings for what they see is a better life somewhere else.
    Last edited by KC; 20-04-2019 at 07:47 AM.

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    You know, people do travel here too. We get people who visit Alberta and go to Banff, Jasper, and West Edmonton Mall

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    They do...and WEM is allegedly still the #1 tourist attraction...

    ...but not in the volumes nor the excitement of a toruist trap like Cancun, or historic tours like Egypt...

    It's nothing to be ashamed of...it is more of an opportunity to improve. We do have some huge barriers though, and many of our own creation. I remember proposing a "kananaskis north" province wide string of attractions as a part of the redevelopment and reclaimation of the Wabamun Generating Station (that was the catalyst). I did consult with other jurisdictions and tourism entities to at least get a POC document started. It had a web of interconnected attractions province wide...and in fact I am still developing components today.

    However...

    The resistance I found was colossal. From some provincial attitudes, to NIMBY, to a lack of self-confidence, to being afraid of the work involved...

    This all loops back to KC's OP...and the answer is unless we work to make Alberta something we'd want to travel to, move to, and stay...they won't...and many others will pass us by.

    I'm not being fatalist. Lord knows I've put a lot of effort into changing this equation....
    President and CEO - Edmonton Airshow. Soon to rebrand to something global.

  11. #11

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    I've said this before and I will say it again, if Edmonton wants to attract more tourists and entice residents to stay; it will have to build man made attractions because our natural attractions are not good enough by themselves against the competition.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    As we get older (and I am starting to be living proof of this clichť), tolerating the extremes in climate is harder. My bones ache. Yes, we used to laugh at our fathers when they were grumpy sods, but now that I am older, yep, I understand why. When it s -30, well, everything $%^@!! hurts. So, retiring elsewhere has that attraction. Now, embracing the weather and designing for it has helped me as I have designed my current residence to work with the realities of our climate...but still....OW.
    I've lived in three parts of BC, when the rain stays day after day, it's depressing. The winter is damp and chills to the bone. Every time we look into moving, something about Alberta, draws us back. Now , if I win the lotto, Hawaii is my paradise. BC is nothing special to me..
    Last edited by H.L.; 20-04-2019 at 03:57 PM.
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    True, our climate is a major drawback to people wanting to vacation here, but itís also something that will be changing if climate change is real. Just think, in 50 years we could surround Hudsons Bay with resorts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    True, our climate is a major drawback to people wanting to vacation here, but itís also something that will be changing if climate change is real. Just think, in 50 years we could surround Hudsons Bay with resorts.
    We already have, the accidental beach..
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    True, our climate is a major drawback to people wanting to vacation here, but itís also something that will be changing if climate change is real. Just think, in 50 years we could surround Hudsons Bay with resorts.
    We already have, the accidental beach..
    Nothing wrong with that. Although Im sure that beach was caused by construction of a bridge over the river, and not by ďglobal warmingĒ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    As we get older (and I am starting to be living proof of this clichť), tolerating the extremes in climate is harder. My bones ache. Yes, we used to laugh at our fathers when they were grumpy sods, but now that I am older, yep, I understand why. When it s -30, well, everything $%^@!! hurts. So, retiring elsewhere has that attraction. Now, embracing the weather and designing for it has helped me as I have designed my current residence to work with the realities of our climate...but still....OW.
    I've lived in three parts of BC, when the rain stays day after day, it's depressing. The winter is damp and chills to the bone. Every time we look into moving, something about Alberta, draws us back. Now , if I win the lotto, Hawaii is my paradise. BC is nothing special to me..

    I moved back here from the West Coast due to the depressing winters. ...and yes, the damp is a killer. I slipped and fell more on moss than I ever did on ice.

    I had several other cities to move to at that time, but came back here for a combination of family and opportunity. Edmonton always has this veil of opportunity, only held back by our own politics and infighting. I have a few international people on my team, and they are amazed at how parochial Edmonton acts...
    President and CEO - Edmonton Airshow. Soon to rebrand to something global.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    True, our climate is a major drawback to people wanting to vacation here, but itís also something that will be changing if climate change is real. Just think, in 50 years we could surround Hudsons Bay with resorts.
    We already have, the accidental beach..
    Nothing wrong with that. Although Im sure that beach was caused by construction of a bridge over the river, and not by ďglobal warmingĒ.
    Probably..it just popped into my mind,people enjoyed it..
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    I would involve myself in the conversation but..... I am presently spending the long weekend vacationing in BC. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I would involve myself in the conversation but..... I am presently spending the long weekend vacationing in BC. lol
    LOL...aren't you guys in Fernie? Lovely skiing there..
    But you get to come to AB..
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    Sonny Boy wanted to go to Fernie so finally said ok. Instead of just driving through we are staying and discovering how great a place it is. Walking about in the old downtown. All the great shops and eating places. Driving the streets high up into the mountains and all the beautiful homes and acreages. Awesome really. Huge skiing here but thatís closed now. Had some great Japanese food tonight. A place my wife picked out.Ate so much I canít sleep. Sonny and I been playing a lot in the pools at the hotel. Just having a blast. Sorry for my off topicness....and yes the leafs may win.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 21-04-2019 at 07:20 AM.

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    I think the entitlement attitudes being expressed are very interesting. Basically it’s not up to me to try to keep the money and wealth in Alberta but instead it’s someone else’s job to make it worth my while.

    Build it and they will stay. Build it and I will stay.

    I partly agree with that as Alberta needs to compete to some degree.

    However, when we haul the loot out of the province to spend it elsewhere or haul in loot by shipping bags of money across the borders we should do so without deluding ourselves. We are not helping our local economy. In fact we are likely permanently harming it because a dollar spent anywhere can circulate in the receiving company with great multiplier effects. Therefore when a dollar is stripped out, leaks out, of our economy, it is cheated out of a lot of potential.

    Read any report on investment, entrepreneurialism, tourism and the multiplier effect and thus the jobs creation effect of incoming dollars will inevitably be discussed.

    What is never discussed is leakage and the reverse compounding effect of departing non-investment and even a good portion of investment dollars.

    When you think of mortgage you think of the reverse compounding impact it has on your future wealth. It’s all interest up front and only at the rail end is your payment all principal. The multiplier effect can have a similar forward or reverse effect on the local economy. A positive synergistic impact.

    However, money that leaks out of the cracks in the dam can lead to a torrent of money in an ever widening gap. The acceleration of water flowing from a glacier melting more and more ice as it goes.

    So a dollar spent somewhere else has a considerable multiplier effect where it is spent. A multiplier effect we are potentially robbing from ourselves and our own economy.

    Dollars brought in by tourists and summer home purchasers, etc. comes here and provides a lot of jobs, jobs that then spend to create other jobs. Ditto for us doing the same elsewhere. However, we are the ones needing the jobs and needing to stop the wealth drain and stop the borrowing to maintain our former lifestyles and quality of living.

    There is a critical need for more discussion and debate about this.
    Last edited by KC; 21-04-2019 at 09:01 AM.

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    Similarly we need more discussion of the design of the equalization payment methodology. It has terrible flaws in that it is agnostic towards the type of economy and enterprises driving each economy.

    As is, its clear that the equalization system and the tax system to a great extent, is the product of academics who need to read and understand more about how good things can go bad. Required reading should be Warren Buffett’s article on derivatives as Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs).

    Seeing equalization at work makes it obvious that the designers of the pooling mechanism that is at the heart of equalization did not understand any of the natures of: volatility, volatile businesses, economies greatly driven by exogenous factors, commodity markets, daisy chaining, correlating factors, or liquidity crises.
    Last edited by KC; 21-04-2019 at 09:13 AM.

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    You edited the original post a bit while I was replying...but this statement is still there...

    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    I think the entitlement attitudes being expressed are very interesting. Basically itís not up to me to try to keep the money and wealth in Alberta but instead itís someone elseís job to make it worth my while.

    Build it and they will stay. Build it and I will stay.

    I partly agree with that as Alberta needs to compete to some degree.
    Firstly, doing what you are asking for requires some people to try. I am among several that are, and still do...but as mentioned a few times...there seems to be either a lack of political will, or the second the actual costs of doing something are known...decision makers turtle.

    But in a sense, it is actually another job to make it worth the royal "my" while. It is why we have Economic Development teams, Tourism, Chambers of Commerce, Hotelier groups, etc. The question of what is supposed to be is largely addressed by teams like this. It is a far bigger question to answer than having each person spend a ton of time making it happen.

    I know in my world, addressing what you are asking for has become colossal. It is far more than full time hours...but it does come down to some group to build it...and hopefully the political and quasi-political boards provide more help than throw up barriers and empire build.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    Read any report on investment, entrepreneurialism, tourism and the multiplier effect and thus the jobs creation effect of incoming dollars will inevitably be discussed.
    There is a lot to unpack on this statement...sorry for the wall of text...

    I am fairly well versed in the "multiplier effect" as it makes up some of the economic impact numbers that get quoted for things I work on. However, I have seen that multiplier often grossly overstated, misused, and contrived.

    Focusing on Tourism...without naming names, some events in the world attest to crowd numbers that are 80-90% of the local population base, then use a multiplier methodology to say that these attendees spend 5X in hotels, etc...when they are an event that relies 99% on local $$ that would be spent in the location anyway, and they count the same attendee multiple times.

    For example, I saw some economic benefit numbers from one arts festival where they said some 800-900K attendees went to in a city with a smaller population than that...which generated something like $88-90M in economic spinoffs...yet under evaluation they didn't crowd the streets any more or less than before. The airport had no increase in passenger movements, hotels saw little to no occupancy increases, no rental cars, restaurants didn't express a huge uptick in revenues...etc. Basically, the stats looked overinflated and the dollars spent were really at the event with minimal spin off effects that warranted the multiplier used.

    I also saw another sporting event in Canada claim some hundreds of millions of spectators on TV. That may be the cumulative effect of all TV watchers globally after they watch 15 minutes of all related events over the course of a year...but it is presented to give the impression that this single event can generate or has access to an audience of hundreds of millions. Yes, the name "BOBVILLE" appears in a standings list somewhere in the program, but is that really generating awareness?

    It becomes hard for some folks to trust these numbers, and the population just gets jaded... it is the same for the entrepreneurialism. Some of the requisite anti-entrepreneurial folks on this board will immediately pooh pooh any economic impact numbers...and some companies provide such over-inflated numbers as to seem laughable.

    Then there is the data that says WEM is the #1 tourist attraction in the province. Technically, this is true, but the tourists are mainly Albertan. So, to your point, there are a lot of people in province that do come to WEM for a break, to shop, and to play. However, when one goes public and says it is the #1 tourist attraction, the Banff/Calgary folks lose their minds because they claim that rubber tire is not real "tourism"...

    I am not against any specific methodology, but consistency would be key. Also, some review prior to announcing numbers to at least pass the red face/sniff test would be good...

    For the work I do, it has a primary economic outlook and is run from the standpoint of provable metrics. I split out internal vs external traffic. I look for changes in passenger numbers. I track hotel sales with partners. The home postal code of attendees is tracked (1st 3 characters to give the municipality), or the old 5-digit zip ( not zip +4) so that we can seriously judge and publish our real draw, split out rubber tire v large scale tourists, etc. The spend is tracked, and there is an imitative to even track cumulative spend split external/internal (in as real of $$ as possible). There is also a TV conversation coming up where I've asked to ensure that the numbers from our specific event (and the requisite reach) is not aggregated into this large ball. This is the only way I, and others, can seriously judge the effectiveness of the campaign, and to see what actually starts addressing the concern you raise of tourism and other alarming dollar drains.

    We need more empirical and proven data points to make hard decisions on, not numbers that seem to come out of the random economic impact machine.

    As for this point...

    Quote Originally Posted by KC
    There is a critical need for more discussion and debate about this.
    PM me pls.
    President and CEO - Edmonton Airshow. Soon to rebrand to something global.

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    Great to see the dialogue.

    i am not yet sure if the logic of OP makes sense. Can you elaborate on WHY anyone should spend all their earnings in the same place they live? Take that logic to extreme: if Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Americans etc use the same logic?

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    I hate WEM, but for years, everyone that came here to visit, wanted to visit it.We had brunch this morning, and the table across from us, they were all from BC..they have family here, but they said they come in the summer, because of certain festivals( heritage days, for one)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Sonny Boy wanted to go to Fernie so finally said ok. Instead of just driving through we are staying and discovering how great a place it is. Walking about in the old downtown. All the great shops and eating places. Driving the streets high up into the mountains and all the beautiful homes and acreages. Awesome really. Huge skiing here but thatís closed now. Had some great Japanese food tonight. A place my wife picked out.Ate so much I canít sleep. Sonny and I been playing a lot in the pools at the hotel. Just having a blast. Sorry for my off topicness....and yes the leafs may win.
    That wealth and whimsical downtown you speak of that is so desirable is thanks in large part to the oilfields of Alberta. The wealth generated in Alberta enabled people to travel and find places like Fernie. I doubt the majority of destinations in BC would be as desirable as they are now if it wasnít for the wealth Alberta created.

  27. #27

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    This thread is absurd. Wealth anywhere doesnít stay where itís generated. We are a global society now, a global economy. I mean are you complaining of all the forgiven money that is used to buy our resources and services. Do we not allow pcl to work outside of Alberta?

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    I think if you take a moment and look at what KC is actually saying...it is the balance of trade that is off according to him and others.

    No one, that I read, is advocating for a 100% what is made here, stays here...I think many are just advocating for interesting ways to keep a bit more here and to entice others to come.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I think if you take a moment and look at what KC is actually saying...it is the balance of trade that is off according to him and others.

    No one, that I read, is advocating for a 100% what is made here, stays here...I think many are just advocating for interesting ways to keep a bit more here and to entice others to come.
    We don’t want a balance, we want as big a surplus of trade as possible and then people realizing that keeping those dollars at home is especially critical in boom bust low net margin commodity based economies. We are selling our resource assets and thus depleting them. There’s no way that we can keep all our revenues however we shouldn’t see the draining away of our wealth to satisfy every “bucket list” and product desire imaginable. People need to understand the negative impact of every discretionary dollar being thrown overboard.

    Moreover we keep thinking that we will at some point diversify our economy and through that diversification we will somehow have new industries that will be able to generate export revenues that will approach the levels of our resource export revenues to support our existing and future population levels.
    Last edited by KC; 21-04-2019 at 09:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Sonny Boy wanted to go to Fernie so finally said ok. Instead of just driving through we are staying and discovering how great a place it is. Walking about in the old downtown. All the great shops and eating places. Driving the streets high up into the mountains and all the beautiful homes and acreages. Awesome really. Huge skiing here but that’s closed now. Had some great Japanese food tonight. A place my wife picked out.Ate so much I can’t sleep. Sonny and I been playing a lot in the pools at the hotel. Just having a blast. Sorry for my off topicness....and yes the leafs may win.
    That wealth and whimsical downtown you speak of that is so desirable is thanks in large part to the oilfields of Alberta. The wealth generated in Alberta enabled people to travel and find places like Fernie. I doubt the majority of destinations in BC would be as desirable as they are now if it wasn’t for the wealth Alberta created.
    If we were a cruise line, we’d own Fernie in order to keep the money in-house.

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    Youíd be surprised the amount of money immigrants send out of the country to their families back home. Itís large. If you donít believe me just ask me. My wife is from Vietnam and Iím at the western union every week.

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    Talking to a guy in Fernie I was surprised to hear that a main behind the scenes reason BC doesnít like the idea of our oil going to China is that it will offset some of their massive coal exports to China. He was telling me that the amount of huge open pit mines throughout BC and the amount of coal exported is staggering, all dirty energy. No one talks about it much. He said they like the environmentalists protesting and the natives and all that just so people will think this is the real reason but in reality itís dollars and cents, and jobs in coal etc. Huge money involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Talking to a guy in Fernie I was surprised to hear that a main behind the scenes reason BC doesnít like the idea of our oil going to China is that it will offset some of their massive coal exports to China. He was telling me that the amount of huge open pit mines throughout BC and the amount of coal exported is staggering, all dirty energy. No one talks about it much. He said they like the environmentalists protesting and the natives and all that just so people will think this is the real reason but in reality itís dollars and cents, and jobs in coal etc. Huge money involved.
    Thats a well known fact. However not publicized like ďthe dirty oilsandsĒ

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    https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...porter-of-coal I just found this while googling about it.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by GranaryMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Talking to a guy in Fernie I was surprised to hear that a main behind the scenes reason BC doesnít like the idea of our oil going to China is that it will offset some of their massive coal exports to China. He was telling me that the amount of huge open pit mines throughout BC and the amount of coal exported is staggering, all dirty energy. No one talks about it much. He said they like the environmentalists protesting and the natives and all that just so people will think this is the real reason but in reality itís dollars and cents, and jobs in coal etc. Huge money involved.
    Thats a well known fact. However not publicized like ďthe dirty oilsandsĒ
    They burn bitumen for electricity?

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    I would think itís refined into a multitude of products including gasoline, diesel, home heating oil etc. Iím not sure of the details. It would be interesting to know what itís all used for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Talking to a guy in Fernie I was surprised to hear that a main behind the scenes reason BC doesn’t like the idea of our oil going to China is that it will offset some of their massive coal exports to China. He was telling me that the amount of huge open pit mines throughout BC and the amount of coal exported is staggering, all dirty energy. No one talks about it much. He said they like the environmentalists protesting and the natives and all that just so people will think this is the real reason but in reality it’s dollars and cents, and jobs in coal etc. Huge money involved.
    Almost all the coal that originates in BC is metallurgical coal, which is turned in to steel.
    They do ship thermal coal out of Vancouver (to burn for electricity) but almost all of that originated in the states.

    The person you talked to is misinformed. The oil going to Asia is for refining for ICE's. The coal is for electricity generation. The two are, for the most part, mutually exclusive.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I would think it’s refined into a multitude of products including diesel, home heating oil etc
    Yeah. I can’t see it offsetting any coal demand. The coal going to power plants would only be supplanted by natural gas for turbines. Stand alone needs like home heating and diesel generators would likely only be in remote areas and not likely places using any kind of coal fired generation.

    I’d say the those BC believers may have bought into a flawed argument and maybe that’s why it isn’t being discussed much.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Talking to a guy in Fernie I was surprised to hear that a main behind the scenes reason BC doesn’t like the idea of our oil going to China is that it will offset some of their massive coal exports to China. He was telling me that the amount of huge open pit mines throughout BC and the amount of coal exported is staggering, all dirty energy. No one talks about it much. He said they like the environmentalists protesting and the natives and all that just so people will think this is the real reason but in reality it’s dollars and cents, and jobs in coal etc. Huge money involved.
    Almost all the coal that originates in BC is metallurgical coal, which is turned in to steel.
    They do ship thermal coal out of Vancouver (to burn for electricity) but almost all of that originated in the states.

    The person you talked to is misinformed. The oil going to Asia is for refining for ICE's. The coal is for electricity generation. The two are, for the most part, mutually exclusive.
    Moreover, BC was keen on LNG. This might significantly impact coal exports.

    Then there’s the issue of mercury in coal and the hazard it presents.

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    The LNG in BC is meant to ship to Asia for power generation.

    The coal produced there might very well be metallurgical coal, however, that doesnít stop the fact that itís still coal and pollutes worse than a gasoline/diesel engine. Only positive side to the coal export is if a ship has an accident there isnít a major environmental disaster.

    The oil Alberta wants to ship to China will be used to refine into every sort of fuel, as well used to make plastics and everything you can think of all the way down to certain medications. Itís actually shocking the amount of products that come from refined hydrocarbons.

    Why can we not refine the product here and ship the more valuable product to itís final destination? Because once itís refined it has a shelf life (expiration date).

    Perhaps if negotiations fail, and turning off the taps fail to produce access to the west coast for our oil, Alberta could invade BC. Use the armed forces we have stationed here and annex them by force. Not like Ottawa really knows where Alberta is anyway, be tough for them to send their own troops here.
    ...i say this because of the flooding going on in Quebec and NS and the military is there helping, whereas i do not recall the military helping with the flooding in southern Alberta a couple years back.

  41. #41

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    LNG, I have been working on this project for a bit now and find it fascinating on how many Edmonton Based firms are involved. (Must be our experience in building large scale industrial accommodation and control facilities). Talked with a friend that is flying out regularly. Mentioned most trade guys are from Alberta and Sask.

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    ...i say this because of the flooding going on in Quebec and NS and the military is there helping, whereas i do not recall the military helping with the flooding in southern Alberta a couple years back.
    Government officials called the flooding the worst in Alberta's history. By June 24, 2013, some 2,200 Canadian Forces (CF) troops had been deployed to help in flooded areas. Land Force Western Area brought in Coyote reconnaissance vehicles, Bison armoured vehicles, G-Wagen Jeeps, and other military vehicles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Alberta_floods

    Seriously man it took 3 seconds to find that out.

    As for the military invading BC. That's hilarious. Some of you Albertans are border lining on having an unhealthy obsession with thing that you have no control over and largely are out of the control of the people you're trying to "get" Seems like Albertans paranoid delusions are alive and well.

    And lets remember for a second, that all those people who came here (and who may eventually leave) helped build this province into what it is. Companies in Alberta begging for people with the skills they need to move here. Alberta does not have the home grown talent to move the provincial economy forward and relies heavily on transplants to get it done Are you shocked that a portion of those will decide to leave ? Why would someone who comes from a place like BC want to live in Edmonton after making their money and retiring ?

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    They came because they couldn't make the money they made here in BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    They came because they couldn't make the money they made here in BC.
    That may well be true. It's harder for young folks just out of school and joining the workforce in BC than it is in Alberta, that's why so many came here. There are lots of jobs available in BC, but it's a more desirable place to live so there is more competition. People come to Alberta for those opportunities, that doesn't mean that they have some sort of duty to stay here when they gain the experience to move back. Why isn't everyone attacking all the Newfoundlanders that split a few years ago and took all their money with them when oil busted ?
    Last edited by 240GLT; 22-04-2019 at 10:32 AM.

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    I agree. People earned their money and can spend it how and where they want. What gets earned in a lot of places does not stay there.

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    Personally I donít mind people leaving. I wish more would. From other countries as well. I liked Alberta better when it was 2M. Now itís 4.4M. If half the people left we would have lots of hospital, school, and residential space. Cheap rent and lower cost housing. Would save a lot of healthcare and other expenses. The oil money would go a lot further. I was born here so I canít go back home. Iím stuck here. Lol.🤪

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Personally I donít mind people leaving. I wish more would. From other countries as well. I liked Alberta better when it was 2M. Now itís 4.4M. If half the people left we would have lots of hospital, school, and residential space. Cheap rent and lower cost housing. Would save a lot of healthcare and other expenses. The oil money would go a lot further. I was born here so I canít go back home. Iím stuck here. Lol.🤪
    I was born here too and have no where else to go, but understand what youíre getting at

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Personally I don’t mind people leaving. I wish more would. From other countries as well. I liked Alberta better when it was 2M. Now it’s 4.4M. If half the people left we would have lots of hospital, school, and residential space. Cheap rent and lower cost housing. Would save a lot of healthcare and other expenses. The oil money would go a lot further. I was born here so I can’t go back home. I’m stuck here. Lol.浪
    except who exactly would leave? because it's typically the best and the brightest that do, not the other way around.

    what's the point of less crowded hospitals without doctors and nurses and lab techs? or schools without teachers and researchers? who is going to pay the taxes to keep providing services to all of those vacant homes?

    as for being stuck here, are there really that many other places in the world you would rather be and where you would be better off?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    In response to kcantor, i must say, there is something about Alberta...when i come back from BC or SK, even from working in the US or Mexico...something just feels right here.

  50. #50

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    I just posted this on another thread. The prospect of a free market in oil and another oil price crash is interesting.


    A threat in Trump’s back pocket: Shaking up the global oil industry

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...lation-1273467

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    This thread is HILARIOUS! I moved here for money. I have come to like this place, and Vancouver is just now completely out of reach.

    People will move. Edmonton and Alberta need to give people a reason to invest and stay. Not everyone will. The end.
    Go Canucks Go!

  52. #52

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    ^ I know right! This hand ringing over “immigrants sending money to loved ones” for example. It’s great we live in a free and democratic society that we can do what we want with our money, including giving it to others.

    Alberts needs to really address the chip on its shoulder.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  53. #53

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    More to my post #22 above



    Alberta's Equalization Payments


    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “ There is something called fiscal stabilization, which is not part of equalization.” ”
    See below


    Braid: Trudeau Liberals quietly rig equalization for five more years | Calgary Herald
    DON BRAID, CALGARY HERALD
    Updated: June 25, 2018


    “Here’s another twist, little known, that shows how the system is loaded against resource-producing provinces: There is something called fiscal stabilization, which is not part of equalization.”

    It pays a benefit — up to $60 per capita — to provinces that suddenly lose more than five per cent of their revenue.

    But natural resource revenue only counts if more than 50 per cent is lose.

    The massive drop in oil and gas receipts during the recession, therefore, is largely irrelevant.

    As a result, Alberta lost $6.9 billion, but only received $251 million from the fiscal stabilization formula.

    “The support we received amounts to less than four per cent of Alberta’s loss in revenue,” Finance Minister Joe Ceci said in a March 20 letter to his federal counterpart, Bill Morneau.

    “In order for this program to work for Albertans, we must revisit or remove this ($60) cap so that provinces receive adequate support when revenues fall sharply.”



    https://calgaryherald.com/news/polit...ive-more-years

    FINALLY someone (Braid in the article above) here had highlighted the great flaw in such moronically designed equalization formulas.

    Its like the TV shows with the shopkeeper in a sudden bind trying to sVe the business begging the Mobsters for some temporary relief from the cash he/she has to pay to the Mob, but instead getting the shop busted up. The formula simple fails to recognize the reality of liquidity crises as if economic management is all just good times.



    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ation-Payments

    Last edited by KC; 25-04-2019 at 09:20 AM.

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    I travel the province extensively by road. One thing I would like to see is an improvement on our tourist facilities. The rest areas are usually a disgrace. I stopped at the one south of Edmonton on Hwy 2 on Monday. The washrooms smelled like urine, the road and parking lot were unswept and the grass was covered in horse dung and is infested with gophers.
    The new pit toilets that they installed on the major highways at the rest areas are almost universally disgusting. The hand sanitizer dispensers are always empty, the door locks often don't work and the lights are iffy at best.
    I could rant for days on the condition of the Provincial Recreation Areas as well.
    If we want people to visit the province we need to take care of the basics before anything else.

  55. #55

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    The difference between Canada(Alberta) and the US is that the Americans brought people before the transportation revolution, and they got stuck. It worked marvelously.
    People settling Canada mostly came after the transportation revolution. As such they are no longer people. They are either labor or capital. Their fundamental principle is: OSMOSIS.

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    . We don't have thousands of years of history, nor monuments to early architectural achievements. No Notre Dame. No Sphinx. No Mesopotamia. No Wailing Wall.
    I've always been partial to giant Hanuman/Wolverine statue.
    Last edited by Safir; 25-04-2019 at 03:12 PM.

  57. #57

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    I never quite understood why there is such resistance to AIMCo's $100B stash being used for economic development. Quebec has no such qualms with its much larger Caisse de Depot. It builds and maintains 'national' champions and stomps on Canada each time they are threatened. We should not be afraid to do such things.

  58. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    . We don't have thousands of years of history, nor monuments to early architectural achievements. No Notre Dame. No Sphinx. No Mesopotamia. No Wailing Wall.
    I've always been partial to giant Hanuman/Wolverine statue.
    And add them to everyone’s Top 10 (as always determined by someone else) “must see” “bucket lists” and we’ll have an ever revolving 10, 20+ billion people in the world all trampling the globe’s “must see” attractions during their lifetime - with the next generation on their heels.

    Maybe we just need to accept a bit less global travel and maybe add more local things to our bucket lists.

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    I never quite understood why there is such resistance to AIMCo's $100B stash being used for economic development. Quebec has no such qualms with its much larger Caisse de Depot. It builds and maintains 'national' champions and stomps on Canada each time they are threatened. We should not be afraid to do such things.
    Investment diversification.

    The money invested abroad is done so with the intention of not only bringing home the original principal but also a stream of earnings.


    The name of the game is wealth creation. Out of that comes a higher and sustainable standard of living.

    So we want to invest in low risk high return investments and get a cut of the upside but not participate in the downside on high risk-high return investments. (Ignore the crap about high-risk equals high-return. That’s just the mantra of thieves and crooks. High risk almost always means high loss.)

    So, here in our resource depleting high volatility commodity based economy we should diversify using the proceeds of our resource depleting activities. Investment diversification doesn’t mean having five different cars listed as assets on our net worth statements.
    Last edited by KC; 25-04-2019 at 03:29 PM.

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Investment diversification doesnít mean having five different cars listed as assets on our net worth statements.
    Below is a snippet of C-2 law in Quebec which relates to Caisse. Can you imagine Alberta enacting this sort of clause in its enabling legislation for AIMCo? I can't. If you don't want to ship money away, give AIMCo the dual mandate that Caisse has. Then Alberta will achieve its rightful place in the adults table

    4.1. The mission of the Fund is to receive moneys on deposit as provided by law and manage them with a view to achieving optimal return on capital within the framework of depositorsí investment policies while at the same time contributing to Quťbecís economic development.

    Last edited by Safir; 25-04-2019 at 03:58 PM.

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Investment diversification doesn’t mean having five different cars listed as assets on our net worth statements.
    Below is a snippet of C-2 law in Quebec which relates to Caisse. Can you imagine Alberta enacting this sort of clause in its enabling legislation for AIMCo? I can't. If you don't want to ship money away, give AIMCo the dual mandate that Caisse has. Then Alberta will achieve its rightful place in the adults table

    4.1. The mission of the Fund is to receive moneys on deposit as provided by law and manage them with a view to achieving optimal return on capital within the framework of depositors’ investment policies while at the same time contributing to Quťbec’s economic development.

    That’s a slippery slope and can lead to all kinds of poor investment choices under the guise of the policy objectives. It ties the hands of fund and in the face of massive losses could lead to political and/or backroom interference in the market to minimize the loss. A fund should be barred from investing locally either. Here in Alberta great opportunities present themselves quite often.

    My concern is the investment abroad where the investor eventual leaves Alberta. The money is never repatriated to Alberta.

    Then there’s consumer spending without regard to, and ignorance if, the negative impacts it can have on our economy. That’s not to say that it will change many decisions (we’ve travelled, bought expensive vehicles and bought lots of imported goods) but it might have some small personal impact and with the multiplier effect that small impact can add up quickly. A better understanding of our sources and uses of our money can also impact attitudes towards policy decisions. So a decision that looks good on one set of book might very well look horrendous when the bigger picture is examined.

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    This is a very interesting topic for me. I was born here and have had a few chances to leave and never did. I stayed because I wanted to be part of the ďsolutionĒ. I love Edmonton! I love spending money here. I think itís the most underrated city in North America. I am pretty conscious of where I spend my money. I will only rent a place to stay in BC If I can find a local owner of the property. Not surprisingly itís not that hard. But itís part of that keeping the money here. Itís important to me to shop at Edmonton owned businesses. I bank at 2 of the 3 Edmonton based banks (CWB,ATB,Servus). Since Flair started, im using them as much as I can. Helping the city thrive is huge for me.

    All that being said, we live in a global economy and itís easier than itís ever been to get around. I spend money on travel and I love it and I likely will never stop. My dad is from another country and I also send money there too. That will likely never stop either. Itís important for me to help people who I can and itís amazing how much a couple hundred dollars goes in many countries.

    The most interesting thing I read on this thread was about if we want people to come here and stay here, we have to build things for them to see and do that are attractive. The look and feel of a city matter and you could accuse Edmonton of being historically poor in that area but I think itís getting better. Look at a place like Dubai they built a tourism industry from basically zero in 1980 to Paris-like overnight stay numbers. Itís really unbelievable. They built some of the most attactive buildings in the world and provided zero personal taxes and almost zero corporate tax rates and it attracted every major company in the world. Iím not saying we could do that here because there are a lots of reasons why we canít but thatís an example of a city building a tourist industry in a harsh climate.

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