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Thread: In Wilson-Raybould's own words.

  1. #101
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    I would recommend the following book for consideration:

    https://utorontopress.com/ca/crisis-...on-in-canada-2

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    "curiouser and curiouser…" said alice near the beginning of her adventure. the only surprise here is how far into our adventure with the boy wonder we got before it started to fall apart so inevitably and so publicly. not making it easy, these resignations are from cabinet only, not from caucus which only keeps the heat up in the kitchen. someone must be missing the ski slopes in creston right about now...

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/phi...alin-1.5042411

    There sure are a lot of people resigning over something that never happened..


    Paging Ms Telford...we need some op-eds STAT!!

    I imagine many AGs have faced a lot of pressure over the decades. This instance just happened to become public.

    Most important of all is the fact that this recent situation only became public after the AG at the time was removed from the position.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    "curiouser and curiouser…" said alice near the beginning of her adventure. the only surprise here is how far into our adventure with the boy wonder we got before it started to fall apart so inevitably and so publicly. not making it easy, these resignations are from cabinet only, not from caucus which only keeps the heat up in the kitchen. someone must be missing the ski slopes in creston right about now...

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/phi...alin-1.5042411

    There sure are a lot of people resigning over something that never happened..


    Paging Ms Telford...we need some op-eds STAT!!

    I imagine many AGs have faced a lot of pressure over the decades. This instance just happened to become public.

    Most important of all is the fact that this recent situation only became public after the AG at the time was removed from the position.
    What kind of pressure? That's a very thin line..she ( our AG) had made up her mind( no meant no) and 10 times they came to change her mind, and then she was demoted..who does that? you don't use veiled threats to anyone, no matter who you are!

    https://globalnews.ca/news/5021267/t...lson-raybould/


    What about political interference in the Vice Admiral Norman case, Trudeau has no clue has to run this country, he is better out of the country.( although that leads to his throwing our money around like it's his) meanwhile PM Butts was running the country

    ..His rally tonight, was fake, overblown bravado and even my friends who vote liberal nearly threw up..

    The TH are saying, they have never seen or heard anything like this, ever..

  4. #104

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    A question to ask is: would this have become public if she remained in the position? She was demoted and replaced by someone many presume will be a yes man. If she was left in the position (and her position on SNC stood unchanged) would this have been made public?

  5. #105
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    Probably not, but that's too late. She's a principled person, and stood her ground. So going the 'what if ' route, is moot.
    But carry-on, if that's what you want, JT is clueless, and I'm sure people who bought into his sunny ways clap trap, are upset. Our PMs are above all this..or should be. He just doesn't get it KC, he's never going to get it..nobody has said no to JT, and look what happens when they do
    When he was asked about groping, he just said she perceived it differently, but any other male, and that male was immediately guilty..one rule for JT, another for everyone else

  6. #106

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    There’s two components: the pressure and the removal from the position.

    I suspect most party loyalists/members of any and all political parties have principles that can go up to, but will not cross the line of going public. Maybe she’s different and was canned before she could go public on the accusations of political interference at the pressure stage. Or maybe it took an actual demotion to confirm in her mind that there were personal consequences to her professionalism. (Sort of like someone having a gun pointed and fired toward them but needing to be hit by the bullet before they actually realize that they were the target.)


    Interesting article:

    https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ott...deau-imposter/
    Last edited by KC; 05-03-2019 at 12:44 AM.

  7. #107
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    There were four former AG's, that called for an RCMP investigation. What JT did for Quebec, is not normal.

  8. #108

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    Trudeau boasted about a new era in government. Women, minorities and better inclusion. The goal was responsible government and a breaking of the 'old boy's club' that was rife in the Harper, Martin, Chrétien, Turner, Mulroney, etc. regimes.

    Well it looks like the women cabinet ministers acted responsibly and blew up the old boy's club of partisan politics, backroom deals, criminal coverup and vested interests by corporations.

    Justin, what did you expect from the honest women you appointed and the unintended consequences of your actions to hide political scandal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    A question to ask is: would this have become public if she remained in the position? She was demoted and replaced by someone many presume will be a yes man. If she was left in the position (and her position on SNC stood unchanged) would this have been made public?
    you know...we can "what if" that...

    One scenario would be that the resistence to pressure would have resulted in SNC being charged and due process could have won out..

    Another scenario would have her resigning from her position under the pressure, and the issue is still here...

    Would it have been made public? My guess (and only my guess after living in this political world a little too much) is that it would not have come out if JT et al would have backed down and let JWR run with the file unimpeded.

    The whole reason this came out is the alleged and perceived punishment or demotion that came from her stance against the alleged pressure. Like a wrongful dismissal suit, this is an HR issue that given the type of position becomes a much larger issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau boasted about a new era in government. Women, minorities and better inclusion. The goal was responsible government and a breaking of the 'old boy's club' that was rife in the Harper, Martin, Chrétien, Turner, Mulroney, etc. regimes.

    Well it looks like the women cabinet ministers acted responsibly and blew up the old boy's club of partisan politics, backroom deals, criminal coverup and vested interests by corporations.

    Justin, what did you expect from the honest women you appointed and the unintended consequences of your actions to hide political scandal?
    The root cause is best summed up in 2 two word sentences. Gender, race, religion, and any demographic you can think of neutral.


    Money talks.

    Power corrupts.


    As much as all the other things you mentioned could play into this, and as I mentioned earlier if you substituted Harper for Trudeau, the accusations of misogyny et al would be rampant... It all comes down to those two 2 word sentences.

    Put a female in power...they will apply and they will happen. Put a religious person in power, they apply and they will happen. I personally have seen women in positions of authority completely change when they get that authority...the money and perceived power changes them. In my line of work, I've seen this often.

    The root is allegedly the money that SNC provides/generates corrupted judgment and influenced the decision making process of the PMO and staffers. This corrupted judgment was challenged and then forced out of the position to challenge. Good men have stood up to corruption and have been removed in a similar way. Good religious people have stood up to church corruption and have been moved out of a parish for their actions. Whistleblowers come from all stripes...and regardless of the stripe...those in a corrupted position of power look to remove the threat.

    ...I do agree that the flowery language used about inclusion and diversity is playing against JT right now. It almost doubles down on the hypocrisy. However, should all this be proven true, it will be just another case of the two sentences.
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  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau boasted about a new era in government. Women, minorities and better inclusion. The goal was responsible government and a breaking of the 'old boy's club' that was rife in the Harper, Martin, Chrétien, Turner, Mulroney, etc. regimes.

    Well it looks like the women cabinet ministers acted responsibly and blew up the old boy's club of partisan politics, backroom deals, criminal coverup and vested interests by corporations.

    Justin, what did you expect from the honest women you appointed and the unintended consequences of your actions to hide political scandal?
    Yeah, every party makes promises about cleaning up the system. That won’t change.

    However, don’t expect that the lesson learned here by power hungry party officials will be positive for the country. The only take-away for them is that this wasn’t the way to get what they want without getting caught.

    In the future we can expect that such positions will only go to the most trusted party loyalists. Loyalty to the party/party leadership above all is the dirtiest part of party politics.
    Last edited by KC; 05-03-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau boasted about a new era in government. Women, minorities and better inclusion. The goal was responsible government and a breaking of the 'old boy's club' that was rife in the Harper, Martin, Chrétien, Turner, Mulroney, etc. regimes.

    Well it looks like the women cabinet ministers acted responsibly and blew up the old boy's club of partisan politics, backroom deals, criminal coverup and vested interests by corporations.

    Justin, what did you expect from the honest women you appointed and the unintended consequences of your actions to hide political scandal?
    The root cause is best summed up in 2 two word sentences. Gender, race, religion, and any demographic you can think of neutral.


    Money talks.

    Power corrupts.


    As much as all the other things you mentioned could play into this, and as I mentioned earlier if you substituted Harper for Trudeau, the accusations of misogyny et al would be rampant... It all comes down to those two 2 word sentences.

    Put a female in power...they will apply and they will happen. Put a religious person in power, they apply and they will happen. I personally have seen women in positions of authority completely change when they get that authority...the money and perceived power changes them. In my line of work, I've seen this often.

    The root is allegedly the money that SNC provides/generates corrupted judgment and influenced the decision making process of the PMO and staffers. This corrupted judgment was challenged and then forced out of the position to challenge. Good men have stood up to corruption and have been removed in a similar way. Good religious people have stood up to church corruption and have been moved out of a parish for their actions. Whistleblowers come from all stripes...and regardless of the stripe...those in a corrupted position of power look to remove the threat.

    ...I do agree that the flowery language used about inclusion and diversity is playing against JT right now. It almost doubles down on the hypocrisy. However, should all this be proven true, it will be just another case of the two sentences.
    I find your attitude quite interesting, what with your slavish devotion to the US military and their suppliers for the air show. The US military is one of the most corrupt, non-transparent entities on the planet and the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us against is just as bad. Bribes, under the counter deals, propping up some of the worst dictatorships in the world. It's all part of business as usual.

    But get them to bring their planes to the airshow and it's like they're all boy scouts.

  13. #113

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    Not sure if its been mentioned but this is typical of the Liberals attack on their own, and its disgusting.


    https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.co...lson-raybould/


    Sidhu has had to take back all his comments as inappropriate and yet he made them, and ironically was grilling Raybould on alleged inexperience, not handling pressure well, and on succumbing to "string pulling" and hilariously while stating that she was not a good team player.


    Sidhu's comments are worthy only of derision. he should step down after making them.


    This is the quality of candidates the Liberals seem to have.


    Fortunately they had JWR who seems to be an exceptional Liberal. I would vote for her uncategorically and without exception. . Theres few other liberals I would vote for.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  14. #114
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    I read about Sidhu, what a clown..sheesh.!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post

    I find your attitude quite interesting, what with your slavish devotion to the US military and their suppliers for the air show. The US military is one of the most corrupt, non-transparent entities on the planet and the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us against is just as bad. Bribes, under the counter deals, propping up some of the worst dictatorships in the world. It's all part of business as usual.

    But get them to bring their planes to the airshow and it's like they're all boy scouts.
    I don't want to belabour this forum with more of your nonsense, but if I must, I will give you a choice.

    Do you really want me to answer this blatant attempt to paint my work in a bad light using misdirection to discredit me? Do you really believe that I cannot take the above comment and deconstruct it as to show how offside you are?

    I can answer with facts and data that would clearly demonstrate that the one sided, rabidly salivating ideologue with slavish devotion is not the person you're writing to, but the person staring at you in the mirror.

    Or, you can walk away.





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  16. #116

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    I shall no longer engage you. Sorry for any previous posts that have caused friction and I shall endeavour to stay out of your way here.

  17. #117

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    Haven't seen a thread die so quickly before.

  18. #118

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    Testimony from the other side of the story.

    'Nothing inappropriate': Butts says SNC-Lavalin scandal blew up only after cabinet shuffle
    PM's ex-principal secretary responds to allegations of inappropriate pressure on then-attorney general

    Gerald Butts, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's former top aide, testified Wednesday there was no intention on the government's part to pressure Jody Wilson-Raybould to change her mind on the criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin, and official engagements were meant only to ensure she had the full facts on the impact of a potential conviction.


    "I am firmly convinced that nothing happened here beyond the normal operations of government," he told the Commons justice committee.


    At all times, he said, the prime minister made it clear that the decision to prosecute or not was Wilson-Raybould's alone to make as attorney general, but that the issue merited robust discussion and consideration because there were so many jobs at risk.


    Butts said highly trained legal staff worked on the file to ensure no line was crossed in engagements with the then-attorney general. He said the objective was to underscore the impact of a prosecution, including the thousands of jobs at stake.


    Those discussions continued because Wilson-Raybould never informed the prime minister or other officials in writing of her decision, he said, leading people to believe that new information could come to light that would affect the decision. Butts said he first learned her decision was final in her committee testimony last week.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/but...ould-1.5044704

  19. #119
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    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/04...s-dying-by-it/

    Butts and Wernick used the same lawyer. Wernick needs to go,egotistical liars
    JWR can't come back again, Wernick was allowed to come back

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    When you consider Justin has told 4 different versions of what has happened, obviously only 1 can be true. So he has lied to us.
    If Butts was so concerned about Canadian jobs he wouldn't have said
    “Truth be told, we don’t think there ought to be a carbon-based energy industry by the middle of this century."
    Oil sands employ around 75,000 people, SNC Lavalin under 8,000.

  21. #121

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    Bottom line is that she was replaced. So it will be very hard for the Liberal Party people to convince anyone that she wasn’t taken out because of her SNC Lavalin position. (Though the writing was then maybe on the wall in terms of indigenous rights, pushing through pipelines, etc.)

  22. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    "curiouser and curiouser…" said alice near the beginning of her adventure. the only surprise here is how far into our adventure with the boy wonder we got before it started to fall apart so inevitably and so publicly. not making it easy, these resignations are from cabinet only, not from caucus which only keeps the heat up in the kitchen. someone must be missing the ski slopes in creston right about now...

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/phi...alin-1.5042411
    This whole thing is starting to have some serious undercurrents of a power grab.. let’s just split the ag position and the minister job.

  23. #123
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    Anything for Quebec, anything at all. It's all about jobs, when job losses aren't even an issue, god the liberals think the rest of the country is stupid!

  24. #124
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    gerald butts in march 2019: "two people can experience the same event differently".

    justin trudeau in july 2018: "the same interactions can be experienced very differently from one person to the next".

    i'm sure the fact that both "other persons" in these discussions was a woman was totally coincidental and irrelevant.

    just as i'm sure there is no sense of entitlement behind either statement asking/expecting/demanding them to be believed simply because of who is making them, not because of the truth or lack thereof behind them.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  25. #125

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    This whole thing hit the fan when Trudeau shuffled his Cabinet in January and Jody was shuffled to Vetrans Affairs.

    She may have stated to other cabinet members and bureaucrats that she made her decision in September but it is not unreasonable as Butte suggested that occasionally such as once a week as political and legal issues changed in the SNC case progressed to ask if her opinions changed or to reevaluate her decision. Things are not final in any legal case until a judge makes a decision. I do not believe that 9,000 jobs were at stake. Maybe 500 or 1,000 due to federal contracts bidding being barred but probably more jobs and revenue were lost with the Saudi/Canada issues than anything else.

    If Butts or others make excess pressure or threats, JWR was correct to call them out. If the questions or requests were just normal course of following an important issue with a egal and political case.
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  26. #126
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    Why can't JWR talk again? The liberals have said she can't, but Butts went into new territory, where she was not able to.
    One thing is for sure, Brison quitting had nothing to do with JW. They need to change the channel on that BS.!

  27. #127

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    How does Butts statement that JWR was not pressured and she just took it that way conflate with other comments like from Wernick stating that "The Prime minister is in the kinda mood that he is going to make this happen"?

    it seems as if those that were pressuring, that were involved, paid little attention to the sum of their activity, of others statements, attempts, and being that they didn't recognize their own instances of crossing lines they didn't detect others doing it.

    Throughout the months theres an alarming lack of awareness of those involved at what constitutes pressure or influencing vs simply allowing one to make their own decision. All the way up to the PMO, and Justin Trudeau. But Wernicks partisan embracing behavior in this is the most shocking. He is supposed to be impartial. How or why did he get caught up in this fervor and game. Why was he buying what the Liberals were selling to the degree he was pressuring and involved to the degree that he was?

    The Butt's testimony is not surprising. But also not surprising people are not heeding it. Butts speaks about this and all people are thinking about is JWR testimony dispelling his protestations.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  28. #128
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    The liberal in Toronto, she's not running again was tweeting about Trudeau, she sees him for what he really is.
    He'll apologise for nothing he's done( apology tour) but not for what he has done!

  29. #129
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    Finally Trudeau makes statements this morning that at least work toward attempting to quell the ongoing harsh criticism. Still hard to believe we are literally watching a PR disaster in slow motion and there seems to be no one capable enough to advise the government that there's a right way and a very wrong way to handle a crisis. Or, the advice is there, but either immaturity, ego, or incompetence is getting in the way.

    Disaster management should have been the mode the government had moved into when Wilson-Raybould was originally "allowed" to provide testimony. It escapes me to witness a government that did not, or could not, realize this was coming.

  30. #130
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    I think there is more to come, this isn't a united party..they can go around the country throwing our money at us, but the media still has questions..

  31. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    gerald butts in march 2019: "two people can experience the same event differently".

    justin trudeau in july 2018: "the same interactions can be experienced very differently from one person to the next".

    i'm sure the fact that both "other persons" in these discussions was a woman was totally coincidental and irrelevant.

    just as i'm sure there is no sense of entitlement behind either statement asking/expecting/demanding them to be believed simply because of who is making them, not because of the truth or lack thereof behind them.
    So two people cannot interpret a situation differently? Or, because there's a woman involved, both people must remember or interpret a situation the same way? One reason that there's more women involved is because the Liberals made a choice to involve more women in government, by voting for them, and in the cabinet, by the PM choosing them for their positions.

    I guess that you wouldn't be saying this if it was the Conservatives since it would likely be two white men involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    gerald butts in march 2019: "two people can experience the same event differently".

    justin trudeau in july 2018: "the same interactions can be experienced very differently from one person to the next".

    i'm sure the fact that both "other persons" in these discussions was a woman was totally coincidental and irrelevant.

    just as i'm sure there is no sense of entitlement behind either statement asking/expecting/demanding them to be believed simply because of who is making them, not because of the truth or lack thereof behind them.
    So two people cannot interpret a situation differently? Or, because there's a woman involved, both people must remember or interpret a situation the same way? One reason that there's more women involved is because the Liberals made a choice to involve more women in government, by voting for them, and in the cabinet, by the PM choosing them for their positions.

    I guess that you wouldn't be saying this if it was the Conservatives since it would likely be two white men involved.
    way to go!!! you passed “how to read a post and interpret it 180 degrees from what was actually being said” with flying colours. i guess practice makes perfect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    gerald butts in march 2019: "two people can experience the same event differently".

    justin trudeau in july 2018: "the same interactions can be experienced very differently from one person to the next".

    i'm sure the fact that both "other persons" in these discussions was a woman was totally coincidental and irrelevant.

    just as i'm sure there is no sense of entitlement behind either statement asking/expecting/demanding them to be believed simply because of who is making them, not because of the truth or lack thereof behind them.
    So two people cannot interpret a situation differently? Or, because there's a woman involved, both people must remember or interpret a situation the same way? One reason that there's more women involved is because the Liberals made a choice to involve more women in government, by voting for them, and in the cabinet, by the PM choosing them for their positions.

    I guess that you wouldn't be saying this if it was the Conservatives since it would likely be two white men involved.
    way to go!!! you passed “how to read a post and interpret it 180 degrees from what was actually being said” with flying colours. i guess practice makes perfect.
    LOL...

  34. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    gerald butts in march 2019: "two people can experience the same event differently".

    justin trudeau in july 2018: "the same interactions can be experienced very differently from one person to the next".

    i'm sure the fact that both "other persons" in these discussions was a woman was totally coincidental and irrelevant.

    just as i'm sure there is no sense of entitlement behind either statement asking/expecting/demanding them to be believed simply because of who is making them, not because of the truth or lack thereof behind them.
    So two people cannot interpret a situation differently? Or, because there's a woman involved, both people must remember or interpret a situation the same way? One reason that there's more women involved is because the Liberals made a choice to involve more women in government, by voting for them, and in the cabinet, by the PM choosing them for their positions.

    I guess that you wouldn't be saying this if it was the Conservatives since it would likely be two white men involved.
    way to go!!! you passed “how to read a post and interpret it 180 degrees from what was actually being said” with flying colours. i guess practice makes perfect.
    Are they wrong for saying what they did? Do you disagree with the statement?

    Or are you simply suggesting that Butts and Trudeau are hypocrites for not believing everything someone says just because they're a woman? If they were saying the same thing about Sarah Huckabee Sanders, you you make the same claim that "i'm sure the fact that both "other persons" in these discussions was a woman was totally coincidental and irrelevant."?

  35. #135
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    I saw some of JTs speech. Boy, he really is one arrogant @sshole No wonder two women quit, and a third won't run. again...smh..

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