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Thread: ‘We have to get off the rollercoaster’: Alberta targets $2 billion upgrader to get more value from o

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    Default ‘We have to get off the rollercoaster’: Alberta targets $2 billion upgrader to get more value from o

    The facility, designed by Calgary-based Value Creation Inc., would be located near Edmonton and process 77,500 barrels of diluted bitumen a day into products like medium synthetic crude and ultra-low sulfur diesel. The province is offering a $440 million loan guarantee to help build the project, which is seeking additional financing as it works toward a final investment decision this year.
    https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/alberta-targets-1-5-billion-upgrader-to-get-more-value-from-oil?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=I wAR0g1GzPLqsVKQQR9uz5vifK-Di5-0EkD4OWTsXWRLzQ72DLeri4drAc8DM#Echobox=1548187047
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    What year will this start, what year will it be finished, and how much more debt do my grandchildren have to pay off?

  3. #3

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    How much debt will your children have to pay off now that the NDP is creating more avenues to generate more income? Less! Stop being so narrowvisioned. Maybe you'll see the opportunity being created here.

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    Any idea on location? Says east of Edmonton, I am guessing Refinery Row?

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    Okay, so nobody knows
    Got it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    How much debt will your children have to pay off now that the NDP is creating more avenues to generate more income? Less! Stop being so narrowvisioned. Maybe you'll see the opportunity being created here.
    If it was a conservative branded party proposing the very same project, their supporters would be jumping for joy and speaking of the wondrous wisdom of the leadership.

    Watch how H.L. does a flip on such proposals after the election (assuming the NDP is punted from office).
    Last edited by KC; 22-01-2019 at 04:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    How much debt will your children have to pay off now that the NDP is creating more avenues to generate more income? Less! Stop being so narrowvisioned. Maybe you'll see the opportunity being created here.
    If it was a conservative branded party, their supporters would be jumping for joy.
    Well this conservative wouldn't, because it will take years. I hate the do nothing cash grab carbon tax, and so do many others. Could Notley take that back? It wasn't mentioned during the election... Walks away whistling a happy tune.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    How much debt will your children have to pay off now that the NDP is creating more avenues to generate more income? Less! Stop being so narrowvisioned. Maybe you'll see the opportunity being created here.
    If it was a conservative branded party, their supporters would be jumping for joy.

    Watch how H.L. does a flip on such proposals after the election (assuming the NDP is punted from office).
    Wrong again KC, but it's getting pretty normal for you to get everything wrong..

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    How much debt will your children have to pay off now that the NDP is creating more avenues to generate more income? Less! Stop being so narrowvisioned. Maybe you'll see the opportunity being created here.
    If it was a conservative branded party, their supporters would be jumping for joy.

    Watch how H.L. does a flip on such proposals after the election (assuming the NDP is punted from office).
    Wrong again KC, but it's getting pretty normal for you to get everything wrong..
    We’ll see.

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    We will. Oh,,it won't be up and running until 2022! ( which means 2024)Sure, people are going to hang around waiting for that job! Sheesh..

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    H.L. Your level of understanding of how massive and complex these projects are seems to be less than optimal, having worked on many industrial projects in the billions of dollars there are always scheduling issues, the larger the project the more likely it is to see unforeseen delays.

    Also, the posters above are right if this was a conservative idea you would be jumping for joy, fact of the matter is the current government sees, better than many of the previous, at the trough conservative ones, that value adding and encouraging local growth of industry will be a cost in the front end, but a net gain in the future, do you think shipping our oil to foreign countries so they can sell us cheap consumer goods is the best idea? Or would it be better to value add and build secondary and tertiary industries here and sell those same products elsewhere, for the net Gain of Albertans and Canadians?

    Let stop the stupid "resource suppliers to the world" idiocy that we are stuck in and build industry here for the world, we could kick butt, and do it in a way more environmentally, human rights and worker rights friendly way than some third world banana republic with terrible records on all these fronts.

    I welcome this and many more projects that will build a stronger economy in Alberta and Canada.

    Small side note, unfortunately we can't even convince our own population that this is a good idea, that they think its smarter to import BLOOD OIL from the Middle East and Venezuela to supply our refineries and industries in Eastern Canada, the blindness to this is shocking to me.
    Excellence is a continual Journey up a staircase where there is NO top step...

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    I would not be jumping for joy. Okay? Where are her rail cars?? she flips and flops around trying to buy votes and it's not happening, none of it, I wouldnt put any money into this business with JT at the helm.


    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dashbo...toon-1.4264158
    Thank god this wasnt oil. How long does she want trains? she's nuts!


    I welcome this and many more projects that will build a stronger economy in Alberta and Canada.
    Of course you do you're a dipper. Had the conservatives said this, it would be an awful idea..see ya chucklehead, say hi to Hoffy

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I would not be jumping for joy. Okay? Where are her rail cars?? she flips and flops around trying to buy votes and it's not happening, none of it, I wouldnt put any money into this business with JT at the helm.


    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dashbo...toon-1.4264158
    Thank god this wasnt oil. How long does she want trains? she's nuts!


    I welcome this and many more projects that will build a stronger economy in Alberta and Canada.
    Of course you do you're a dipper. Had the conservatives said this, it would be an awful idea..see ya chucklehead, say hi to Hoffy
    You are literally just noise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I would not be jumping for joy. Okay? Where are her rail cars?? she flips and flops around trying to buy votes and it's not happening, none of it, I wouldnt put any money into this business with JT at the helm.


    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dashbo...toon-1.4264158
    Thank god this wasnt oil. How long does she want trains? she's nuts!


    I welcome this and many more projects that will build a stronger economy in Alberta and Canada.
    Of course you do you're a dipper. Had the conservatives said this, it would be an awful idea..see ya chucklehead, say hi to Hoffy
    You are literally just noise.
    So why post to me, you are literally a non starter

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    I actually am pragmatic and regardless of the political party that a person represents, if it is a sound concept or idea I will support it, because I, unlike others think for myself and make my own decisions.
    Excellence is a continual Journey up a staircase where there is NO top step...

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    The idea of value adding to the industry is not actually anything new, Ernest Manning while Premier of Alberta, and a Social Conservative, literally forced the international Oil Companies to build refineries, processing plants and secondary and tertiary industries here in Alberta, because when Oil was discovered in the Leduc field the first response from the mostly American companies was to build pipelines to underutilized refineries in Texas and Oklahoma, sound familiar?
    Excellence is a continual Journey up a staircase where there is NO top step...

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    DanC and most of the other C2E squad, you will have a much better time on the C2E forum by putting H.L. on your Ignore List.
    I did so ages ago, and life has been wonderful since!
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenL2 View Post
    The idea of value adding to the industry is not actually anything new, Ernest Manning while Premier of Alberta, and a Social Conservative, literally forced the international Oil Companies to build refineries, processing plants and secondary and tertiary industries here in Alberta, because when Oil was discovered in the Leduc field the first response from the mostly American companies was to build pipelines to underutilized refineries in Texas and Oklahoma, sound familiar?

    Right now though, when an election is due. Do you not smell fish( y)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    DanC and most of the other C2E squad, you will have a much better time on the C2E forum by putting H.L. on your Ignore List.
    I did so ages ago, and life has been wonderful since!

    Mean little monkey! I have half this board on ignore,, because they are idiots You won't see this. But I don't disagree
    Life is wonderful, dramatic much? Mwah!.lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    DanC and most of the other C2E squad, you will have a much better time on the C2E forum by putting H.L. on your Ignore List.
    I did so ages ago, and life has been wonderful since!
    Mean little monkey! I have half this board on ignore,, because they are idiots You won't see this. But I don't disagree
    Life is wonderful, dramatic much? Mwah!.lol
    Isn’t this basically the equivalent of talking to oneself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    DanC and most of the other C2E squad, you will have a much better time on the C2E forum by putting H.L. on your Ignore List.
    I did so ages ago, and life has been wonderful since!
    Mean little monkey! I have half this board on ignore,, because they are idiots You won't see this. But I don't disagree
    Life is wonderful, dramatic much? Mwah!.lol
    Isn’t this basically the equivalent of talking to oneself?
    No, he'll look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I would not be jumping for joy. Okay? Where are her rail cars?? she flips and flops around trying to buy votes and it's not happening, none of it, I wouldnt put any money into this business with JT at the helm.


    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dashbo...toon-1.4264158
    Thank god this wasnt oil. How long does she want trains? she's nuts!


    I welcome this and many more projects that will build a stronger economy in Alberta and Canada.
    Of course you do you're a dipper. Had the conservatives said this, it would be an awful idea..see ya chucklehead, say hi to Hoffy
    Strange how no one on this forum believes you. Must be your track record.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KenL2 View Post
    The idea of value adding to the industry is not actually anything new, Ernest Manning while Premier of Alberta, and a Social Conservative, literally forced the international Oil Companies to build refineries, processing plants and secondary and tertiary industries here in Alberta, because when Oil was discovered in the Leduc field the first response from the mostly American companies was to build pipelines to underutilized refineries in Texas and Oklahoma, sound familiar?

    Right now though, when an election is due. Do you not smell fish( y)
    There are two polypropylene plants under construction right now that were announced at the beginning of the NPD’s term and were subsidized with royalty grants. Perfectly consistent with petrochemical development policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I would not be jumping for joy. Okay? Where are her rail cars?? she flips and flops around trying to buy votes and it's not happening, none of it, I wouldnt put any money into this business with JT at the helm.


    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dashbo...toon-1.4264158
    Thank god this wasnt oil. How long does she want trains? she's nuts!


    I welcome this and many more projects that will build a stronger economy in Alberta and Canada.
    Of course you do you're a dipper. Had the conservatives said this, it would be an awful idea..see ya chucklehead, say hi to Hoffy
    Strange how no one on this forum believes you. Must be your track record.
    No one, or the dippers? We do message on here you know. Oh sure, you guys have run off moahunter, and Gemini etc etc etc.I'm not going because of them, not as well as them

    . You need to get over yourself

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    ^With every post you create, your lack of comprehension for pretty much anything relevant becomes more apparent. People like you are why countries like the USA are in the position they are now... chaos. Just do the planet a favour and shut the **** up 🤐.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    ^With every post you create, your lack of comprehension for pretty much anything relevant becomes more apparent. People like you are why countries like the USA are in the position they are now... chaos. Just do the planet a favour and shut the **** up ��.
    The US? Wtf are you talking about, you humorless t***

    I'm not about to shut up,so bite me! Or better still, block me! Please block me, its easy to do ,,as easy as taking cheap potshots at me..
    Last edited by H.L.; 23-01-2019 at 05:56 AM.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    We will. Oh,,it won't be up and running until 2022! ( which means 2024)Sure, people are going to hang around waiting for that job! Sheesh..
    Hello Lady is waiting for Jason Kenny and his magic beans. One month after taking office and there will be ten new pipelines up and running along with a whole bunch of new jobs appearing overnight.

    After all, Alberta NEVER hit a tough patch when the Cons were in office.

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    Right... doing well... social chaos and plunging markets aside, sure... everything is just going wonderfully down there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    ^With every post you create, your lack of comprehension for pretty much anything relevant becomes more apparent. People like you are why countries like the USA are in the position they are now... chaos. Just do the planet a favour and shut the **** up ��.
    The US? Wtf are you talking about, you humorless t***

    I'm not about to shut up,so bite me! Or better still, block me! Please block me, its easy to do ,,as easy as taking cheap potshots at me..
    Pointing out your ignorance is hardly cheap.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    We will. Oh,,it won't be up and running until 2022! ( which means 2024)Sure, people are going to hang around waiting for that job! Sheesh..
    Good and insightful point. Same problem with the equalization formula.

    Just as people may need extraordinary support during sudden and difficult times, so too for businesses, especially during broad based collapses affecting all players. Allowing businesses and their expertise to go bankrupt in difficult times where they are not just absorbed by local competitors means entire sectors face liquidation, the assets or divisions dismantled and assets including intellectual properties get sold off and often exported. So even the salvageable value completely exits the local market, the skills and expertise leaves.


    Ironically the very opposite problem with many of our short term quick fix interventionist social and medical treatments that abandon people.




    “But this long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again.”

    - JM Keynes, The Tract on Monetary Reform (1923)
    Pg 80
    https://delong.typepad.com/keynes-19...ary-reform.pdf


    The true meaning of “In the long run we are all dead” | Simon Taylor's Blog

    “Unemployment causes enormous harm to individuals and families, reduces long term potential output as people lose their skill and motivation and can last for many years. The appalling rates of unemployment in southern Europe are doing great damage right now, as well as storing up serious political problems for the future (once again I have to cite the fact that the Nazis achieved power in Germany on the back of mass unemployment, not inflation). It is in this sense that economists should not let themselves off the hook by saying that these countries will somehow eventually return to full employment if we are just patient. This is both immoral and incorrect.

    Keynes wrote about the future of mankind and the possibilities that greater economic prosperity might bring. He cherished a high quality of life and wanted to preserve a capitalist system capable of delivering this against the danger of a collectivist tyranny.
    It is nonsense to imply that he had no conception of the value of the future. And those many economists today who argue that Europe is needlessly wasting human life and capabilities are not reckless about the future either. They have both economic theory and history on their side to argue that we should not let mass unemployment continue.”


    https://www.simontaylorsblog.com/201...-are-all-dead/
    Bolding mine
    Last edited by KC; 23-01-2019 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Right... doing well... social chaos and plunging markets aside, sure... everything is just going wonderfully down there.
    You think its so great here. Wait! https://business.financialpost.com/n...try-of-finance

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    ^With every post you create, your lack of comprehension for pretty much anything relevant becomes more apparent. People like you are why countries like the USA are in the position they are now... chaos. Just do the planet a favour and shut the **** up ��.
    The US? Wtf are you talking about, you humorless t***

    I'm not about to shut up,so bite me! Or better still, block me! Please block me, its easy to do ,,as easy as taking cheap potshots at me..
    Pointing out your ignorance is hardly cheap.
    It's easy though, it has to be, you can do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    We will. Oh,,it won't be up and running until 2022! ( which means 2024)Sure, people are going to hang around waiting for that job! Sheesh..
    Good and insightful point. Same problem with the equalization formula.


    Ironically the very opposite problem with many of our short term quick fix interventionist social and medical treatments that abandon people.




    The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again.

    - JM Keynes, The Tract on Monetary Reform (1923)


    The true meaning of “In the long run we are all dead” | Simon Taylor's Blog

    “Unemployment causes enormous harm to individuals and families, reduces long term potential output as people lose their skill and motivation and can last for many years. The appalling rates of unemployment in southern Europe are doing great damage right now, as well as storing up serious political problems for the future (once again I have to cite the fact that the Nazis achieved power in Germany on the back of mass unemployment, not inflation). It is in this sense that economists should not let themselves off the hook by saying that these countries will somehow eventually return to full employment if we are just patient. This is both immoral and incorrect.

    Keynes wrote about the future of mankind and the possibilities that greater economic prosperity might bring. He cherished a high quality of life and wanted to preserve a capitalist system capable of delivering this against the danger of a collectivist tyranny.
    It is nonsense to imply that he had no conception of the value of the future. And those many economists today who argue that Europe is needlessly wasting human life and capabilities are not reckless about the future either. They have both economic theory and history on their side to argue that we should not let mass unemployment continue.”


    https://www.simontaylorsblog.com/201...-are-all-dead/
    Bolding mine
    In the long run, we are all dead? I'm not understanding

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    We will. Oh,,it won't be up and running until 2022! ( which means 2024)Sure, people are going to hang around waiting for that job! Sheesh..
    Good and insightful point. Same problem with the equalization formula.


    Ironically the very opposite problem with many of our short term quick fix interventionist social and medical treatments that abandon people.




    The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again.

    - JM Keynes, The Tract on Monetary Reform (1923)


    The true meaning of “In the long run we are all dead” | Simon Taylor's Blog

    “Unemployment causes enormous harm to individuals and families, reduces long term potential output as people lose their skill and motivation and can last for many years. The appalling rates of unemployment in southern Europe are doing great damage right now, as well as storing up serious political problems for the future (once again I have to cite the fact that the Nazis achieved power in Germany on the back of mass unemployment, not inflation). It is in this sense that economists should not let themselves off the hook by saying that these countries will somehow eventually return to full employment if we are just patient. This is both immoral and incorrect.

    Keynes wrote about the future of mankind and the possibilities that greater economic prosperity might bring. He cherished a high quality of life and wanted to preserve a capitalist system capable of delivering this against the danger of a collectivist tyranny.
    It is nonsense to imply that he had no conception of the value of the future. And those many economists today who argue that Europe is needlessly wasting human life and capabilities are not reckless about the future either. They have both economic theory and history on their side to argue that we should not let mass unemployment continue.”


    https://www.simontaylorsblog.com/201...-are-all-dead/
    Bolding mine
    In the long run, we are all dead? I'm not understanding
    Basically if you’re walking across the thin ice of a river and you’re just trying to survive to the far side, then people telling you how life on the far side will be wonderful are useless pricks.
    Last edited by KC; 23-01-2019 at 04:19 PM.

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    Ah,I see. Thankyou

  37. #37

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    So H.L doesn't want her kids paying off government debt, but doesn't seem to understand yet that in order to make money you need to spend money first. This type of project creates long term jobs, and long term income for the province of Alberta. I sure want my kids to have a future in the province, but all H.L. sees is debt.... which is a shame, as this is a very good thing. 2 Billion dollars might seem like a lot of money to an individual, but to a province over 40-50 years, its a few drops in a massive bucket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So H.L doesn't want her kids paying off government debt, but doesn't seem to understand yet that in order to make money you need to spend money first. This type of project creates long term jobs, and long term income for the province of Alberta. I sure want my kids to have a future in the province, but all H.L. sees is debt.... which is a shame, as this is a very good thing. 2 Billion dollars might seem like a lot of money to an individual, but to a province over 40-50 years, its a few drops in a massive bucket.
    True,but this isn't the only debt. That's my concern, were all allowed to have concerns, are we not?

    We still have to move this stuff.
    Last edited by H.L.; 23-01-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  39. #39

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    This project will open up pipeline capacity that won't be needed to import dilutent. Yes, we buy most of out dilutent from the states and pay them a pretty penny for it. Cut the need for dilutent, you open up capacity going the other way without needing to build special, corrosion resistant pipelines for diluted bitumen. You also expand the number of refineries that can us your product so that when one of the refineries that can handle bitumen goes down for maintenance or some other reason, your price doesn't take a hit.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So H.L doesn't want her kids paying off government debt, but doesn't seem to understand yet that in order to make money you need to spend money first. This type of project creates long term jobs, and long term income for the province of Alberta. I sure want my kids to have a future in the province, but all H.L. sees is debt.... which is a shame, as this is a very good thing. 2 Billion dollars might seem like a lot of money to an individual, but to a province over 40-50 years, its a few drops in a massive bucket.
    True,but this isn't the only debt. That's my concern, were all allowed to have concerns, are we not?

    We still have to move this stuff.
    From the days when Klein and mayors Decore, Cavanaugh, Reimer and Smith dealt with high debt levels (without a lot of consideration for rising infrastructure repair needs), we’ve come to see the appropriateness of some debt at some times for some things. (Stupidly called “smart debt”.)

    It’s the same old problem. We don’t plan for the tough times so when they hit there’s issues where some people can only see the immediate crisis in front of them and there’s other issues, where often the same people, can only look out to the long term.

    Getty borrowed massively at near multi-generational high interest rates. Notley has borrowed at near multi-generational low interest rates.

  41. #41

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    The Conservatives also diverted royalty payments from the Heritage Fund into general revenues. The HF could have been used as a backstop in the bad times. Instead, it's been stuck at around $15 billion for decades, effectively losing value as time goes on. Notley is using revenue from royalties to effectively back this project.

    But sure, let's support the UCP and their call for tax cuts. That'll help. Just look at the growth of debt in the states after the big cut there.

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