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Thread: Civic emergency services at events

  1. #1
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    Default Civic emergency services at events

    Is it supposed to rain this weekend?
    I'm not sure why the FF needs police all of a sudden, $$$ I suppose.

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    I think the police are there because of all the trouble happening around Canada and the world, and we haven't been immune to that type of stuff recently.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I think the police are there because of all the trouble happening around Canada and the world, and we haven't been immune to that type of stuff recently.
    Reasonable point. Sad indication of our times but valid.
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    It's also a cash cow for EPS. Each officer costs $122/hr. 8 officers over the space of the festival would have brought in ~$60,000. The city and the Fest have reached a new test agreement for 50/50 sharing what drops the price to $30,000. Still, not a small sum of money.

    Folk Fest makes peace with police after EPS wanted to increase presence this year
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4374935/e...lice-presence/

  5. #5

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    The Folk Festival started hiring a few police officers solely to direct traffic on 98th Avenue each evening after the Festival ended. This was solely the Festival engaging them as a result of observations on vehicular traffic and consultation with the Cloverdale Community.

    The latest came with no consultation until the 11th hour meeting on Monday mentioned in press reports - four days before the start.

    There were at least 3 separate pairs of fully-uniformed police personnel I saw on Thursday night walking around the Festival. From what I have heard, not much positive feedback is being received at the Festival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    It's also a cash cow for EPS. Each officer costs $122/hr. 8 officers over the space of the festival would have brought in ~$60,000. The city and the Fest have reached a new test agreement for 50/50 sharing what drops the price to $30,000. Still, not a small sum of money.

    Folk Fest makes peace with police after EPS wanted to increase presence this year
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4374935/e...lice-presence/
    Do you expect the officers to volunteer their time? Given their salaries/benefits and the support and equipment they require from the service, that's a reasonable rate. It's not a profit centre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    The Folk Festival started hiring a few police officers solely to direct traffic on 98th Avenue each evening after the Festival ended. This was solely the Festival engaging them as a result of observations on vehicular traffic and consultation with the Cloverdale Community.

    The latest came with no consultation until the 11th hour meeting on Monday mentioned in press reports - four days before the start.

    There were at least 3 separate pairs of fully-uniformed police personnel I saw on Thursday night walking around the Festival. From what I have heard, not much positive feedback is being received at the Festival.
    Sorry, what is the issue with having officers at Folk Fest?

  8. #8

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    Police are not required on site. The Folk Festival has provided security that is more than adequate over the years and nothing on site has changed.

    Overpolicing has become the norm in Edmonton and it's time to bring it to a stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Police are not required on site. The Folk Festival has provided security that is more than adequate over the years and nothing on site has changed.

    Overpolicing has become the norm in Edmonton and it's time to bring it to a stop.
    That's baloney.
    When you have that many people congregating in that size of an area, there had better be police, uniformed or not.

    The City can and does have the power to shut this whole thing down without a proper police presence.

    As for the cost, certain folk fest passes sell out every year. Demand exceeds supply. Raise the prices.



    If Edmonton is being over policed why are the downtown 7/11s virtual drop in shelters?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jackson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Police are not required on site. The Folk Festival has provided security that is more than adequate over the years and nothing on site has changed.

    Overpolicing has become the norm in Edmonton and it's time to bring it to a stop.
    That's baloney.
    When you have that many people congregating in that size of an area, there had better be police, uniformed or not.

    The City can and does have the power to shut this whole thing down without a proper police presence.

    As for the cost, certain folk fest passes sell out every year. Demand exceeds supply. Raise the prices.



    If Edmonton is being over policed why are the downtown 7/11s virtual drop in shelters?
    if EFF wants alternative traffic control on city streets then that’s policing they should pay for. The rest should be part of the regular EPS patrols at no charge to Folk fest. Certainly not at the overtime rates that they’r charged. On-site security can be volunteers, a private company or whatever else folk fest decides are necessary. Certainly EPS has no place telling Folk fest how many police officers they have to hire.
    There can only be one.

  11. #11

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    FolkFest insurers may have had something to say about the EPS being on-site too...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  12. #12

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    No, I don't expect them to volunteer. But, if EPS decides that it's necessary, shouldn't they provide the officers? Isn't that what they're supposed to do? Is the ICE district paying $116/hr for all the extra officers that were hired when it opened?

    If EPS decides it's necessary, they the police and, by extension, the city, should proved the funding. This half "necessity" and half "volunteer" is stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    It's also a cash cow for EPS. Each officer costs $122/hr. 8 officers over the space of the festival would have brought in ~$60,000. The city and the Fest have reached a new test agreement for 50/50 sharing what drops the price to $30,000. Still, not a small sum of money.

    Folk Fest makes peace with police after EPS wanted to increase presence this year
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4374935/e...lice-presence/
    Do you expect the officers to volunteer their time? Given their salaries/benefits and the support and equipment they require from the service, that's a reasonable rate. It's not a profit centre.
    Which is fine if the the festival requested the officers. In this case EPS demanded the festival have the officers and pay for them. That's a huge cost of the festival that they did not ask for. If the EPS wants to put officers on the site above what the festival requests then they should pay for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    It's also a cash cow for EPS. Each officer costs $122/hr. 8 officers over the space of the festival would have brought in ~$60,000. The city and the Fest have reached a new test agreement for 50/50 sharing what drops the price to $30,000. Still, not a small sum of money.

    Folk Fest makes peace with police after EPS wanted to increase presence this year
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4374935/e...lice-presence/
    Do you expect the officers to volunteer their time? Given their salaries/benefits and the support and equipment they require from the service, that's a reasonable rate. It's not a profit centre.
    Which is fine if the the festival requested the officers. In this case EPS demanded the festival have the officers and pay for them. That's a huge cost of the festival that they did not ask for. If the EPS wants to put officers on the site above what the festival requests then they should pay for them.
    ...actually...and coming from someone hit with a huge police, fire, EMS bill every year...

    There is a lot more to this story than being suddenly "hit" with this. All sorts of festivals have had to pay for increased policing for years now. This is not a part of the regular "beat" patrols. There is the other argument that the taxpayer should not be on the hook to police, secure, and have staged EMS and Fire units at the ready for your yearly grass party...

    My airshow, a family friendly event, is a minimum of $40,000. It has had that every year. This is on top of on site security and other aspects. Why is the Folk Fest immune?

    ...there's more to this story than what is being reported. That's what's upsetting to me...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  15. #15

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    This is not a case of the EFF requesting increased police presence. It was insisted on by EPS. If EPS deems something necessary, then it should be part of their mandate. If a festival requests any or increased police presence, then it's not a necessity in the eyes of EPS and the group making the request should be on the hook for at least 50%.

    Should OEG be on the hook for increased police presence around the arena during event nights? The commercial entity gets their increased policing paid for but the volunteer organization has to pay for it?

    Chief concerned about policing Rogers Place area despite doubling up on officers

    The police service has created 40 new downtown-based positions: 33 officers have been added to the beats unit, doubling its size to 66; and seven other officers will join the hospitality unit, which has a focus on entertainment and nightclub venues.


    “We are going to be under significant pressure to police that area, depending on the number of events and depending on the number of people who attend those events,” Knecht said Thursday.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/business...up-on-officers

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    It's also a cash cow for EPS. Each officer costs $122/hr. 8 officers over the space of the festival would have brought in ~$60,000. The city and the Fest have reached a new test agreement for 50/50 sharing what drops the price to $30,000. Still, not a small sum of money.

    Folk Fest makes peace with police after EPS wanted to increase presence this year
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4374935/e...lice-presence/
    Do you expect the officers to volunteer their time? Given their salaries/benefits and the support and equipment they require from the service, that's a reasonable rate. It's not a profit centre.
    Which is fine if the the festival requested the officers. In this case EPS demanded the festival have the officers and pay for them. That's a huge cost of the festival that they did not ask for. If the EPS wants to put officers on the site above what the festival requests then they should pay for them.
    ...actually...and coming from someone hit with a huge police, fire, EMS bill every year...

    There is a lot more to this story than being suddenly "hit" with this. All sorts of festivals have had to pay for increased policing for years now. This is not a part of the regular "beat" patrols. There is the other argument that the taxpayer should not be on the hook to police, secure, and have staged EMS and Fire units at the ready for your yearly grass party...

    My airshow, a family friendly event, is a minimum of $40,000. It has had that every year. This is on top of on site security and other aspects. Why is the Folk Fest immune?

    ...there's more to this story than what is being reported. That's what's upsetting to me...
    Fair pov but to me its a matter of whether the police presence and need is emanating from within a festival or gathering, or from an unknown fear of an external attack. It seems unfair that any event should be paying for protection due to a concern not affiliated with it.

    In the case of an airshow theres of course other risks involved and due to the nature of the event. Which I don't need to go into.

    But I will. This occurred yesterday and you are online questioning security and policing costs at an airshow? c'mon.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/11/us/pl...off/index.html
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-08-2018 at 12:18 PM.
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    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    This is not a case of the EFF requesting increased police presence. It was insisted on by EPS. If EPS deems something necessary, then it should be part of their mandate. If a festival requests any or increased police presence, then it's not a necessity in the eyes of EPS and the group making the request should be on the hook for at least 50%.

    Should OEG be on the hook for increased police presence around the arena during event nights? The commercial entity gets their increased policing paid for but the volunteer organization has to pay for it?

    Chief concerned about policing Rogers Place area despite doubling up on officers

    The police service has created 40 new downtown-based positions: 33 officers have been added to the beats unit, doubling its size to 66; and seven other officers will join the hospitality unit, which has a focus on entertainment and nightclub venues.


    “We are going to be under significant pressure to police that area, depending on the number of events and depending on the number of people who attend those events,” Knecht said Thursday.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/business...up-on-officers
    Here's a hint. For insurance reasons, and many others, you don't get to request police presence. Your permit demands you have it based on your risk factors,, as determined by a joint task force of the requisite services required.

    Sturgeon County does this. Leduc County does this. The Province does this. The City of Edmonton does this. How the Folk Fest has flown under the radar for so long on these requirements has been a sore point for the other festivals that have to align. It is not so much a case of the Folk Fest having something foisted upon it that isn't done on others; rather, the Folk Fest being treated the same as the others.

    We all get this requirement.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Disappointing reply Richard. Countless unintended accidents, tragedies, have occurred at airshows around the world. So of course your emergency response and onsite emergency service provision costs would be high. I was merely bringing up the SeaTac incident which "isn't supposed to be able to happen" either.

    If you think a Folk festival is riskier than an airshow I don't even know what to say in response to that.


    Anyway its clear how this exchange will go so I'll end it.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    This is not a case of the EFF requesting increased police presence. It was insisted on by EPS. If EPS deems something necessary, then it should be part of their mandate. If a festival requests any or increased police presence, then it's not a necessity in the eyes of EPS and the group making the request should be on the hook for at least 50%.

    Should OEG be on the hook for increased police presence around the arena during event nights? The commercial entity gets their increased policing paid for but the volunteer organization has to pay for it?

    Chief concerned about policing Rogers Place area despite doubling up on officers

    The police service has created 40 new downtown-based positions: 33 officers have been added to the beats unit, doubling its size to 66; and seven other officers will join the hospitality unit, which has a focus on entertainment and nightclub venues.


    “We are going to be under significant pressure to police that area, depending on the number of events and depending on the number of people who attend those events,” Knecht said Thursday.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/business...up-on-officers
    Here's a hint. For insurance reasons, and many others, you don't get to request police presence. Your permit demands you have it based on your risk factors,, as determined by a joint task force of the requisite services required.

    Sturgeon County does this. Leduc County does this. The Province does this. The City of Edmonton does this. How the Folk Fest has flown under the radar for so long on these requirements has been a sore point for the other festivals that have to align. It is not so much a case of the Folk Fest having something foisted upon it that isn't done on others; rather, the Folk Fest being treated the same as the others.

    We all get this requirement.
    "Nice little Folk Fest you've got here. Be a shame if anything happened to it."

    Tell you what, I'll agree that it's fair for the EFF to get socked with a $60,000 bill to pay for something that the Police are supposed to be doing anyway *** soon as OEG starts paying the costs for the 33 officers hired because of the arena district.

    Let's see 33 officers X the $122/h the Folk Fest was quoted X 40 hours/week X 52 weeks = $8,374,080,000

    If they charged the commercial entity for their policing, they could pay for policing for all the festivals. But let's shake down the festivals instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Disappointing reply Richard. Countless unintended accidents, tragedies, have occurred at airshows around the world. So of course your emergency response and onsite emergency service provision costs would be high. I was merely bringing up the SeaTac incident which "isn't supposed to be able to happen" either.

    If you think a Folk festival is riskier than an airshow I don't even know what to say in response to that.


    Anyway its clear how this exchange will go so I'll end it.
    countless? actually no. those that have taken place are all well documented and counted and fatalities are almost all limited to pilots and not spectators.

    in the meantime there have been 722 deaths at music festivals in a recent 15 year study. https://www.cantechletter.com/2016/1...hs-study-says/ and yes, most of those have been drug related so perhaps you’re tempted to say “well that was their choice, not a reflection of where they were”. but that doesn’t apply anywhere else and shouldn’t at festivals either. and it doesn’t apply to those who were drugged not by choice but through the actions of others.

    furthermore, my guess is that if you extended the comparison to include those injured and those subjected to overdoses and those ripped off at festivals vs airshows, airshows would rank as far safer environments.

    lastly, my guess is also that 4 hours at an airshow is also a lot less damaging on your hearing than the extended exposure to high volumes at most festivals.

    this isn’t meant to take anything away from festivals but simply to point out that some of the high horses being ridden here are purely imaginary.
    Last edited by kcantor; 11-08-2018 at 06:17 PM.
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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Disappointing reply Richard. Countless unintended accidents, tragedies, have occurred at airshows around the world. So of course your emergency response and onsite emergency service provision costs would be high. I was merely bringing up the SeaTac incident which "isn't supposed to be able to happen" either.

    If you think a Folk festival is riskier than an airshow I don't even know what to say in response to that.


    Anyway its clear how this exchange will go so I'll end it.
    countless? actually no. those that have taken place are all well documented and counted and fatalities are almost all limited to pilots and not spectators.

    in the meantime there have been 722 deaths at music festivals in a recent 15 year study. https://www.cantechletter.com/2016/1...hs-study-says/ and yes, most of those have been drug related so perhaps you’re tempted to say “well that was their choice, not a reflection of where they were”. but that doesn’t apply anywhere else and shouldn’t at festivals either. and it doesn’t apply to those who were drugged not by choice but through the actions of others.

    furthermore, my guess is that if you extended the comparison to include those injured and those subjected to overdoses and those ripped off at festivals vs airshows, airshows would rank as far safer environments.

    lastly, my guess is also that 4 hours at an airshow is also a lot less damaging on your hearing than the extended exposure to high volumes at most festivals.

    this isn’t meant to take anything away from festivals but simply to point out that some of the high horses being ridden here are purely imaginary.
    jebus, not all music festivals are created equal in this regard. Again this is a folk festival. Not exactly a hotbed of crystal meth or E or overdoses. Some music festivals do feature a lot more of harmful drug use but this is about the Folk Festival.

    This is a wiki list of airshow disasters just in this century;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_21st_century

    This is merely some of the air show accidents that have resulted in loss of civilian life;

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/air-sh...tory-1.3201822

    More on this one;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sknyliv_air_show_disaster



    Finally what would be the participant number of music festivals and attendees at music festivals world wide vs the same at airshows? To simply quote casualties is possibly misleading. But as per the thread how many deaths (not by natural causes or expiry) occur at Folk Festivals?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Disappointing reply Richard. Countless unintended accidents, tragedies, have occurred at airshows around the world. So of course your emergency response and onsite emergency service provision costs would be high. I was merely bringing up the SeaTac incident which "isn't supposed to be able to happen" either.

    If you think a Folk festival is riskier than an airshow I don't even know what to say in response to that.


    Anyway its clear how this exchange will go so I'll end it.

    Disappointing reply? What would you rather have my friend? ...a reply that said, "Oh master, I bow to your reverence and to your prominence!"

    You made a correlation with an incident that was pure personal suicide, that happened to use an aircraft...and that the contributing events that allowed this individual to take off just simply do not exist with static displays. The airspace is closed, under the complete control of me and the Airboss, nothing moves, taxi's, and even takes off without either of us knowing...etc. This Seattle event contributes absolutely not one iota of extra evidence or concern for CAR 603/623. Not....one... So, it makes your point seem more alarmist than it need be.

    So, you'd like to list out incidents...then kcantor lists out the same...so your response is to then split hairs. A little hypocritical as if you want to do that, well, Canadian airshows are EXTREMELY safe. Transport Canada has safety so ingrained that many of the incidents you cite wouldn't happen, especially anything towards spectators. Interestingly enough, doing our HIRA and other assessments, Transport understands why Villeneuve is a great site...no encroachments onto dwellings, and absolutely no energy directed towards spectators. So, after a complete risk assessment and cooperating with all regulatory bodies...I get an A+.

    To kcantor's point, we did a risk assessment on an evening show complete with a small music component. Our risk assessment went through the roof. So, again tell me just how the Folk Fest, or any music festival where intoxicants mixed with snobbery exist, is somehow safer than an Airshow? Our demographics skew more to families with young kids. Also, the performers take the risk, and are insured for this.

    Have you ever sat down with experts and crunched the numbers? There is a very good logistical and financial reason why I DO NOT have a music festival right now, and why any steps to integrate one are a ways off....the risk increases exponentially...as does the security, medical, and insurance costs. I find the RCMP, AHS, Sturgeon Fire, EFS, EPS, Military Police, Alberta Transportation, Alberta Infrastructure, and other agents who help us absolutely invaluable.

    I am so worried about road issues that I contracted JetSet parking and its professionals to design, lay out, and execute the parking lot and exits for our show this year. With simple volunteers, we did OK. Now, we expect to be able to drain the field of all spectators in 45 minutes to an hour in normal circumstances, and our well rehearsed emergency containment and exit plan (weather, incident, active shooter, etc) has a goal to exit 40,000 spectators in 30 minutes from the order to evacuate. Again, all the help from the above agencies, applied to our industry professionals, and yes, there is a cost. But, my insurance is lower. ...and, heaven forbid we have an airside issue, our response time is 90 seconds (tested and validated). So, if an incident happens like in Abbotsford tonight, we are on the scene immediately. Why? Because we trained for that.

    You completely ignored the point. If you give your municipality no drama, you actually get more cooperation and in turn, more value. If you give your insurance company no drama, you get a lower premium. I've actually participated in several of these risk assessment conversations, and if you approach it with poise and professionalism, and with the understanding that you WILL have members of all branches there...and you WILL get a bill...you'd be extremely surprised at the extra value they give you. They understand that their presence can be intimidating, so they take steps to minimize it.

    In the end, it is time for the Folk Fest to get with the program. The triathalon gets hit, you'd be surprised at the security around the K Days and other parades, Heritage Days...etc...

    So...is it now a bit clearer as to how this exchange will end?
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    This is not a case of the EFF requesting increased police presence. It was insisted on by EPS. If EPS deems something necessary, then it should be part of their mandate. If a festival requests any or increased police presence, then it's not a necessity in the eyes of EPS and the group making the request should be on the hook for at least 50%.

    Should OEG be on the hook for increased police presence around the arena during event nights? The commercial entity gets their increased policing paid for but the volunteer organization has to pay for it?

    Chief concerned about policing Rogers Place area despite doubling up on officers

    The police service has created 40 new downtown-based positions: 33 officers have been added to the beats unit, doubling its size to 66; and seven other officers will join the hospitality unit, which has a focus on entertainment and nightclub venues.


    “We are going to be under significant pressure to police that area, depending on the number of events and depending on the number of people who attend those events,” Knecht said Thursday.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/business...up-on-officers
    Here's a hint. For insurance reasons, and many others, you don't get to request police presence. Your permit demands you have it based on your risk factors,, as determined by a joint task force of the requisite services required.

    Sturgeon County does this. Leduc County does this. The Province does this. The City of Edmonton does this. How the Folk Fest has flown under the radar for so long on these requirements has been a sore point for the other festivals that have to align. It is not so much a case of the Folk Fest having something foisted upon it that isn't done on others; rather, the Folk Fest being treated the same as the others.

    We all get this requirement.
    "Nice little Folk Fest you've got here. Be a shame if anything happened to it."

    Tell you what, I'll agree that it's fair for the EFF to get socked with a $60,000 bill to pay for something that the Police are supposed to be doing anyway *** soon as OEG starts paying the costs for the 33 officers hired because of the arena district.

    Let's see 33 officers X the $122/h the Folk Fest was quoted X 40 hours/week X 52 weeks = $8,374,080,000

    If they charged the commercial entity for their policing, they could pay for policing for all the festivals. But let's shake down the festivals instead.

    ...are you SURE you have this right?

    As per my above conversation, it is amazing what you learn when you are actually a partner and a friend to your local police service.

    You, kind person, are wrong.

    OEG and the Eskimos get MASSIVE bills for the enhanced policing during their events. I happen to know the folks with this information personally, and the Esks for example get ~$150K in policing costs added to their bill. While I have not asked what the Oilers get in exact dollars, the last conversation was the bill was, and I use all caps because he did, MASSIVE.

    I will try to get the amount as it is FOIP-able. I have a call out tonight to get that number.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Disappointing reply Richard. Countless unintended accidents, tragedies, have occurred at airshows around the world. So of course your emergency response and onsite emergency service provision costs would be high. I was merely bringing up the SeaTac incident which "isn't supposed to be able to happen" either.

    If you think a Folk festival is riskier than an airshow I don't even know what to say in response to that.


    Anyway its clear how this exchange will go so I'll end it.

    Disappointing reply? What would you rather have my friend? ...a reply that said, "Oh master, I bow to your reverence and to your prominence!"

    You made a correlation with an incident that was pure personal suicide, that happened to use an aircraft...and that the contributing events that allowed this individual to take off just simply do not exist with static displays. The airspace is closed, under the complete control of me and the Airboss, nothing moves, taxi's, and even takes off without either of us knowing...etc. This Seattle event contributes absolutely not one iota of extra evidence or concern for CAR 603/623. Not....one... So, it makes your point seem more alarmist than it need be.

    So, you'd like to list out incidents...then kcantor lists out the same...so your response is to then split hairs. A little hypocritical as if you want to do that, well, Canadian airshows are EXTREMELY safe. Transport Canada has safety so ingrained that many of the incidents you cite wouldn't happen, especially anything towards spectators. Interestingly enough, doing our HIRA and other assessments, Transport understands why Villeneuve is a great site...no encroachments onto dwellings, and absolutely no energy directed towards spectators. So, after a complete risk assessment and cooperating with all regulatory bodies...I get an A+.

    To kcantor's point, we did a risk assessment on an evening show complete with a small music component. Our risk assessment went through the roof. So, again tell me just how the Folk Fest, or any music festival where intoxicants mixed with snobbery exist, is somehow safer than an Airshow? Our demographics skew more to families with young kids. Also, the performers take the risk, and are insured for this.

    Have you ever sat down with experts and crunched the numbers? There is a very good logistical and financial reason why I DO NOT have a music festival right now, and why any steps to integrate one are a ways off....the risk increases exponentially...as does the security, medical, and insurance costs. I find the RCMP, AHS, Sturgeon Fire, EFS, EPS, Military Police, Alberta Transportation, Alberta Infrastructure, and other agents who help us absolutely invaluable.

    I am so worried about road issues that I contracted JetSet parking and its professionals to design, lay out, and execute the parking lot and exits for our show this year. With simple volunteers, we did OK. Now, we expect to be able to drain the field of all spectators in 45 minutes to an hour in normal circumstances, and our well rehearsed emergency containment and exit plan (weather, incident, active shooter, etc) has a goal to exit 40,000 spectators in 30 minutes from the order to evacuate. Again, all the help from the above agencies, applied to our industry professionals, and yes, there is a cost. But, my insurance is lower. ...and, heaven forbid we have an airside issue, our response time is 90 seconds (tested and validated). So, if an incident happens like in Abbotsford tonight, we are on the scene immediately. Why? Because we trained for that.

    You completely ignored the point. If you give your municipality no drama, you actually get more cooperation and in turn, more value. If you give your insurance company no drama, you get a lower premium. I've actually participated in several of these risk assessment conversations, and if you approach it with poise and professionalism, and with the understanding that you WILL have members of all branches there...and you WILL get a bill...you'd be extremely surprised at the extra value they give you. They understand that their presence can be intimidating, so they take steps to minimize it.

    In the end, it is time for the Folk Fest to get with the program. The triathalon gets hit, you'd be surprised at the security around the K Days and other parades, Heritage Days...etc...

    So...is it now a bit clearer as to how this exchange will end?
    You are the one that continues to conflagrate the dangers of a Folk Festival vs an airshow which at best is odd. Yeah, its clear the the exchange will end in you not seeing the difference, apparently. I have no vested interest in this. I just find your notion that a Folk Festival is more dangerous than an airshow strange. Note that no specific stats for Folk Festival risks, deaths, injuries has been listed. Dangers of airshows are well known and established as you of course know.

    Maybe you could quantify your statement;

    "I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow."


    Note you SPECIFICALLY wrote Folk Fest. Kcantor then cites general music festival stats that are not at all specific to what the discussion is. I'm the only one that has bothered to cite specific stats.

    Finally. Many of the deaths at music festivals have been due to collapse of seating structures, some have been due to fires where people were trapped, some were due to trampling. Folk Festivals involve essentially zero risk of any of those as there are no temp seating structures, people sit on a field. People don't get trapped and burned in a burning structure because they are not indoors.., trampling, nah, don't think so. Also in half a century of operation there has not been one traffic related death at EFMF that I am aware of. Again the above represent the vast majority of deaths in music festivals. Those risks would not be high at a folk festival.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-08-2018 at 10:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    You are the one that continues to conflagrate the dangers of a Folk Festival vs an airshow which at best is odd. Yeah, its clear the the exchange will end in you not seeing the difference, apparently. I have no vested interest in this. I just find your notion that a Folk Festival is more dangerous than an airshow strange. Note that no specific stats for Folk Festival risks, deaths, injuries has been listed. Dangers of airshows are well known and established as you of course know.

    Maybe you could quantify your statement;

    "I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow."


    Note you SPECIFICALLY wrote Folk Fest. Kcantor then cites general music festival stats that are not at all specific to what the discussion is. I'm the only one that has bothered to cite specific stats.

    Finally. Many of the deaths at music festivals have been due to collapse of seating structures, some have been due to fires where people were trapped, some were due to trampling. Folk Festivals involve essentially zero risk of any of those as there are no temp seating structures, people sit on a field. People don't get trapped and burned in a burning structure because they are not indoors.., trampling, nah, don't think so. Also in half a century of operation there has not been one traffic related death at EFMF that I am aware of. Again the above represent the vast majority of deaths in music festivals. Those risks would not be high at a folk festival.

    Oh lord love a duck...

    Airshow, K Days Parade, Triathalon, concerts, Oilers games, Esks games, Heritage Days, Expo, Ice on Whyte, Pride Parade, Fringe, St Albert Children's fest, Midways, Marathons, Tour of Alberta, Indy, Jazz Fest...and yes, even your allegedly mild mannered folk fest have their issues. It is about ALL festivals having to play ball with having a risk assessment done, complying with it, and then finding the funding. So, now, the Folk Fest has to play in the same pool as the rest of us. I have no sympathy.

    From what I understand, Folk Fest had months notice. The City even played nice initially, offering to pay half. They just decided that they didn't want the "stormtroopers" at their event as it would "kill the vibe". Yeah, where have I heard that before...

    I won't speak publicly about the specific risk assessment, ask the Special Events division. That is where I get my information.

    Maybe you should take a look at the event from a security set of eyes, and not from a death standpoint. You have several thousand people in a contained area. I can see several choke points, flash points, and evacuation concerns...and that is just from asking what would happen if I invited Walk Off the Earth to do come for some pre-twilight show music... Your attitude of nothing can happen it the starting point of why I say it has far greater security risks. #1 risk is complacency.

    Cops do more than arrest people. They're actually your best ally in an event. I know I've been happy they were on site...and this was just in a parking lot.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I think the police are there because of all the trouble happening around Canada and the world, and we haven't been immune to that type of stuff recently.
    .

    Reasonable point. Sad indication of our times but valid.
    Juxtapose this (a major contributor for why the risk model has changed) with you arguing with me on having them...

    Like I said, look at it from 2018 and the risk model now. Not from stage collapses. Municipal risk adverse attitudes are at an all time high...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    The Folk Festival started hiring a few police officers solely to direct traffic on 98th Avenue each evening after the Festival ended. This was solely the Festival engaging them as a result of observations on vehicular traffic and consultation with the Cloverdale Community.

    The latest came with no consultation until the 11th hour meeting on Monday mentioned in press reports - four days before the start.

    (...).
    Not true.

    The Folk Fest was informed months ago. I was made aware of then when I approached the City to discuss their service model in preparation for more US and Foreign military assets in 2019+. I need security assets should protected hardware arrive, so I was discussing with the RCMP, MP's, and EPS as to their options, agreements between departments, and requisite costs. This also included Prime Ministerial protection.

    This was back in March, and at that time there was discussion about how Folk Fest was told they would have to adhere to the new model.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  29. #29

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    City & EPS "OMG!!! You have been running this festival like this since 1980 and you're not all dead yet?? We have to do something about this immediately! Here's a police presence well beyond what you need along with a $60,000 bill. Feel safer yet?"

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    ...you do realize that, like Medwards said (and even Replacement mentions and admits), that the world has changed since 1980?

    Heck...for a Soap Box Derby....no motors, no fuel, gravity powered, some cars didn't even have enough energy to finish...I needed a fire truck on standby?

    Maybe some of you should organize a large event where you invite thousands of people to...and find out in many ways how common sense is not so common...to really appreciate what is happening here. Do I like everything that has happened since 1980? No. ...but like the seatbelt argument, I can see where they are coming from.

    I thought some of the regulations I have to deal with from Transport were silly, until I went to a fly in at another non regulated airport in Canada. Suddenly, I acquired a whole new appreciation for the "why". Common sense...not so common. Were there any deaths/incidents...no. Would there have been a flurry of lawsuits and clampdowns if something happened? Darn straight.

    It still doesn't explain away some of the silliness on the rotary wing parts, but I see what they are trying to prevent. So, instead of freaking out, I found it is better to keep the regulators on your side.

    You may not feel safer. ...but like I said, they do more than arrest people and play "killjoy".
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I think the police are there because of all the trouble happening around Canada and the world, and we haven't been immune to that type of stuff recently.
    .

    Reasonable point. Sad indication of our times but valid.
    Juxtapose this (a major contributor for why the risk model has changed) with you arguing with me on having them...

    Like I said, look at it from 2018 and the risk model now. Not from stage collapses. Municipal risk adverse attitudes are at an all time high...
    I don't know that you are taking in my comments in entirety. I specifically mentioned that its reasonable for a festival to be billed for security or other costs that incur DUE to the actual festival and its INTERNAL concerns. The risk of Terrrorism is an external concern, a National or International concern, and maybe some of those preventative costs can be aided by some form of Federal funding and I'm far from the only one that is advocating for more of that being a federal responsibility.

    Further, the notion that any event will be terrorist attacked, while possible, is fairly invented fear. The reality is a mass public threat escalation could occur anywhere. It could occur on Danforth. It could occur at SeaTac. The reality is that trying to prevent unknowns from occurring everywhere is less effective than fingers in a leaky dam.


    Next, one would think the highest risk event for Terrorist attack in this city to hit would be Heritage Festival. Especially now with fencing, with chokepoint entry/exit, with as many as over 300K people attending one day last year. An event that has literally no security, no access security, no bags checked, no visual check like Folk festival. I've been frisked at CFMF, don't know if they do it at this one. Folk Fest has 15K people in a very large area and fields. Distributed across several stages and with several exits and places to evade a potential terrorist attack.


    Finally, clever of you to move this to a separate thread as all the specific talking points on this being a discussion on Heritage Festival are now having an altered context to which they were written.


    Speaking of juxtaposition.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-08-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    The Folk Festival started hiring a few police officers solely to direct traffic on 98th Avenue each evening after the Festival ended. This was solely the Festival engaging them as a result of observations on vehicular traffic and consultation with the Cloverdale Community.

    The latest came with no consultation until the 11th hour meeting on Monday mentioned in press reports - four days before the start.

    (...).
    Not true.

    The Folk Fest was informed months ago. I was made aware of then when I approached the City to discuss their service model in preparation for more US and Foreign military assets in 2019+. I need security assets should protected hardware arrive, so I was discussing with the RCMP, MP's, and EPS as to their options, agreements between departments, and requisite costs. This also included Prime Ministerial protection.

    This was back in March, and at that time there was discussion about how Folk Fest was told they would have to adhere to the new model.
    That they were discussing it doesn't mean they had informed the festival of what the requirements would be. Wickham has said they were informed of the number of officers that would be required only two weeks ago. That is very short notice for that level of expense. I have no particular issue if there is ample notice for the events to budget for the costs and if the number of officers is reasonable. In this case the notice of costs was very late and personally I would question the need for that number of officers given there have never been officers patrolling on site prior to this.

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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    You are the one that continues to conflagrate the dangers of a Folk Festival vs an airshow which at best is odd. Yeah, its clear the the exchange will end in you not seeing the difference, apparently. I have no vested interest in this. I just find your notion that a Folk Festival is more dangerous than an airshow strange. Note that no specific stats for Folk Festival risks, deaths, injuries has been listed. Dangers of airshows are well known and established as you of course know.

    Maybe you could quantify your statement;

    "I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow."


    Note you SPECIFICALLY wrote Folk Fest. Kcantor then cites general music festival stats that are not at all specific to what the discussion is. I'm the only one that has bothered to cite specific stats.

    Finally. Many of the deaths at music festivals have been due to collapse of seating structures, some have been due to fires where people were trapped, some were due to trampling. Folk Festivals involve essentially zero risk of any of those as there are no temp seating structures, people sit on a field. People don't get trapped and burned in a burning structure because they are not indoors.., trampling, nah, don't think so. Also in half a century of operation there has not been one traffic related death at EFMF that I am aware of. Again the above represent the vast majority of deaths in music festivals. Those risks would not be high at a folk festival.

    Oh lord love a duck...

    Airshow, K Days Parade, Triathalon, concerts, Oilers games, Esks games, Heritage Days, Expo, Ice on Whyte, Pride Parade, Fringe, St Albert Children's fest, Midways, Marathons, Tour of Alberta, Indy, Jazz Fest...and yes, even your allegedly mild mannered folk fest have their issues. It is about ALL festivals having to play ball with having a risk assessment done, complying with it, and then finding the funding. So, now, the Folk Fest has to play in the same pool as the rest of us. I have no sympathy.

    From what I understand, Folk Fest had months notice. The City even played nice initially, offering to pay half. They just decided that they didn't want the "stormtroopers" at their event as it would "kill the vibe". Yeah, where have I heard that before...

    I won't speak publicly about the specific risk assessment, ask the Special Events division. That is where I get my information.

    Maybe you should take a look at the event from a security set of eyes, and not from a death standpoint. You have several thousand people in a contained area. I can see several choke points, flash points, and evacuation concerns...and that is just from asking what would happen if I invited Walk Off the Earth to do come for some pre-twilight show music... Your attitude of nothing can happen it the starting point of why I say it has far greater security risks. #1 risk is complacency.

    Cops do more than arrest people. They're actually your best ally in an event. I know I've been happy they were on site...and this was just in a parking lot.
    Again I have no vested interest in the EFMF. I don't even attend. But I've been there and looked at it countless times.

    So what risk is specific to Folk Festival?

    You accepted Kcantors specific citation on music festival deaths and backed that as substantiation.

    I rebutted that even the citation said that most of the deaths that occur at music festivals are due to Bleacher or seating collapses, trampling or due to vehicles or drug overdoses. None of these risks apply with the Folk festival.


    So then being that I effectively refuted that notion you go full tilt on the Terrorism risk angle. Even though a Folk Festival would have to be one of the least likely venues for a Terrorist attack possible.

    I do draw a distinction however that any Airport or airshow should have heavy security and that they represent far greater risks mainly for what they contain, aircraft.

    Myself I had mentioned the SeaTac incident primarily due to be being astounded (well not really) at how easy it would be for any airport staff on a plane to commandeer said plane. Interesting that one of the things revealed in the review of this incident is for around $59 bucks a person can order cockpit operation Manuals for virtually any plane in operation.

    In this day and age why would commercial airplanes not be equipped with some kind of remote failsafe system whereby the tower could disable a rogue plane? Technology afaik exists for this to occur. This is a side discussion but should it be so easy for someone to walk in and start taxiing and flying a rogue plane? This happened at one of the busiest airports in North America in a highly populated area. The tragedy from this of course could have been immense. Fortunately for Seattle area the mechanic only had suicide as a motive and not mass killing.


    The one thing that hasn't been mentioned much is how easy or difficult was it for the mechanic to have access to the cockpit. The news sources have not been clear on that part. I am surprised that there isn't much more talk on what could have ensued in this incident. The one service this mechanic has served is alerting the public on how easy this flight was to undertake. Him even managing to Taxi and fly that plane out of a major airport should be seen as a major fail in Airport security precaution and/or intervention.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-08-2018 at 09:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...

    That they were discussing it doesn't mean they had informed the festival of what the requirements would be. Wickham has said they were informed of the number of officers that would be required only two weeks ago. That is very short notice for that level of expense. I have no particular issue if there is ample notice for the events to budget for the costs and if the number of officers is reasonable. In this case the notice of costs was very late and personally I would question the need for that number of officers given there have never been officers patrolling on site prior to this.
    i’m not so sure about that... i caught what i think was most of an interview with terry wickham on friday and the concern didn’t seem to be about the cost or the notice or even the presence of police. the concern wasn’t the police presence even in uniform but the fact they are armed and having their guns on site “would ruin the vibe”. not to say cost wasn’t discussed earlier but without question it seemed “ the vibe” was really “the issue”. and maybe because with that many tickets - and that much beer - to absorb the cost in top of their cash reserves it really isn’t the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...

    That they were discussing it doesn't mean they had informed the festival of what the requirements would be. Wickham has said they were informed of the number of officers that would be required only two weeks ago. That is very short notice for that level of expense. I have no particular issue if there is ample notice for the events to budget for the costs and if the number of officers is reasonable. In this case the notice of costs was very late and personally I would question the need for that number of officers given there have never been officers patrolling on site prior to this.
    i’m not so sure about that... i caught what i think was most of an interview with terry wickham on friday and the concern didn’t seem to be about the cost or the notice or even the presence of police. the concern wasn’t the police presence even in uniform but the fact they are armed and having their guns on site “would ruin the vibe”. not to say cost wasn’t discussed earlier but without question it seemed “ the vibe” was really “the issue”. and maybe because with that many tickets - and that much beer - to absorb the cost in top of their cash reserves it really isn’t the issue.
    Fair enough although it's also fair to note atmosphere and the feel of a festival are part of what draw people there so it is something they have to think about. It does sound like they came to an agreement on lowering the number of officers visible on site at any one time.

    I would also still question the necessity for it. It does seem police forces are pushing to have more officers in places like this at the expense of the event. Personally I'd rather see more officers available to respond to the day to day theft issues in my neighbourhood.

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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...you do realize that, like Medwards said (and even Replacement mentions and admits), that the world has changed since 1980?

    Heck...for a Soap Box Derby....no motors, no fuel, gravity powered, some cars didn't even have enough energy to finish...I needed a fire truck on standby?

    Maybe some of you should organize a large event where you invite thousands of people to...and find out in many ways how common sense is not so common...to really appreciate what is happening here. Do I like everything that has happened since 1980? No. ...but like the seatbelt argument, I can see where they are coming from.

    I thought some of the regulations I have to deal with from Transport were silly, until I went to a fly in at another non regulated airport in Canada. Suddenly, I acquired a whole new appreciation for the "why". Common sense...not so common. Were there any deaths/incidents...no. Would there have been a flurry of lawsuits and clampdowns if something happened? Darn straight.

    It still doesn't explain away some of the silliness on the rotary wing parts, but I see what they are trying to prevent. So, instead of freaking out, I found it is better to keep the regulators on your side.

    You may not feel safer. ...but like I said, they do more than arrest people and play "killjoy".
    Give us $60,000 or we won't stop a terrorist if they attack. Really? The attacker last year also drove a truck through downtown. Are each of the businesses there going to have to pay for police protection on top of their taxes? The city hired an additional 33 officers just the because of the arena district. Does that mean that they won't respond to anything outside of a certain radius?

    If we're using full time, fully trained officers for nothing more than directing traffic, then we're wasting resources. It's no wonder that the charge is $122/hr for each of them.

    Maybe, just maybe, people are using irrational fear in order to make people think that there's a terrorist hiding behind every tree. That they only way we'll be safe is if we have armed officers always within our field of vision. If you can't see them then they can't see you and that means you're in deadly danger.

    What's next, police snipers on the light towers scanning the crowd at all times? Facial recognition cameras running background checks on everyone they see? Don't say it won't or can't happen because there's places that it already is. And people will be saying "It's for your own good".

    The police’s use of facial recognition technology will affect our daily freedoms


    While Christmas shopping in Cardiff last year, Ed Bridges noticed something strange. A van parked on the bustling street had a camera on top, watching the thousands walking by. By the time he was close enough to read ‘facial recognition fitted’, he knew it was too late. South Wales Police had scanned his face – and those of thousands of other shoppers. They’d become part of a vast digital line-up – without their knowledge, let alone their consent. Three months later, Ed joined a peaceful protest outside the Cardiff Arms Fair – and police parked a facial recognition van right alongside their demonstration. It felt like a direct attempt to intimidate protesters and discourage them from using their legal right to protest. Ed wrote to South Wales Police asking them to stop deploying live facial recognition in public spaces, but they refused.


    http://https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/1...3/?ito=cbshare


    Last edited by kkozoriz; 12-08-2018 at 09:53 AM.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...

    That they were discussing it doesn't mean they had informed the festival of what the requirements would be. Wickham has said they were informed of the number of officers that would be required only two weeks ago. That is very short notice for that level of expense. I have no particular issue if there is ample notice for the events to budget for the costs and if the number of officers is reasonable. In this case the notice of costs was very late and personally I would question the need for that number of officers given there have never been officers patrolling on site prior to this.
    i’m not so sure about that... i caught what i think was most of an interview with terry wickham on friday and the concern didn’t seem to be about the cost or the notice or even the presence of police. the concern wasn’t the police presence even in uniform but the fact they are armed and having their guns on site “would ruin the vibe”. not to say cost wasn’t discussed earlier but without question it seemed “ the vibe” was really “the issue”. and maybe because with that many tickets - and that much beer - to absorb the cost in top of their cash reserves it really isn’t the issue.
    Fair enough although it's also fair to note atmosphere and the feel of a festival are part of what draw people there so it is something they have to think about. It does sound like they came to an agreement on lowering the number of officers visible on site at any one time.

    I would also still question the necessity for it. It does seem police forces are pushing to have more officers in places like this at the expense of the event. Personally I'd rather see more officers available to respond to the day to day theft issues in my neighbourhood.

    I would suggest there is something to wanting to maintain the vibe of a peaceful and relaxing event and that if its deemed there needs to be armed police officers all around then in our collective notions the terrorists have won. This is a Folk Festival. if this isn't a time where people should be able to relax and not worry too much what is?

    The notion of preventing terrorism everywhere behind every tree is crazy. As myself and others have mentioned its simply invocation of public fear to drive increasing police use and provision on public dime.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-08-2018 at 10:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...

    Fair enough although it's also fair to note atmosphere and the feel of a festival are part of what draw people there so it is something they have to think about. It does sound like they came to an agreement on lowering the number of officers visible on site at any one time.

    I would also still question the necessity for it. It does seem police forces are pushing to have more officers in places like this at the expense of the event. Personally I'd rather see more officers available to respond to the day to day theft issues in my neighbourhood.
    emphasis added...

    fair enough although who is going to make that assessment? the festival/event organizer or the licensing body/police? if efmf can “make their own call”, why not the motorcycle clubs of alberta or some of those fine people on the other side from charlottesville? the problem is never the events that aren’t a problem until the day they are and not necessarily of their own making. and that may not be the bogeyman terrorist, it could just as easily be a set of rival drug dealers.
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    The assessment should be made by the event organizer and the licensing body with input from law enforcement. It should definitely not be dictated by law enforcement in the absence of licensing requirements made by a civic authority. The difficulty with law enforcement is that when you're a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

    In the case of long running events, police forces will lack the institutional knowledge the event organizers have built up over time regarding their event. In the case of the Folk Fest, they have been managing their own security for decades and adjusting as necessary. There have been, as far as I know, no major issues over those years. It's definitely not an event that's going draw gang violence or "rival drug dealers".

    For all events history and context have to be taken into account. If you have an event that has a history of requiring police response then the requirements should be different than those whose organizers have kept their events relatively trouble free.

    As for terrorism issues, well first I'd note we've had very few in Canada and none particularly organized and all have been at insecure targets. A large festival on a closed site doesn't fit that bill. Second our response to terrorism should not be a move towards a police state.

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    As an aside to the security status of the festival. As she has every year, our premier was in attendance, on the hill with everyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...you do realize that, like Medwards said (and even Replacement mentions and admits), that the world has changed since 1980?

    Heck...for a Soap Box Derby....no motors, no fuel, gravity powered, some cars didn't even have enough energy to finish...I needed a fire truck on standby?

    Maybe some of you should organize a large event where you invite thousands of people to...and find out in many ways how common sense is not so common...to really appreciate what is happening here. Do I like everything that has happened since 1980? No. ...but like the seatbelt argument, I can see where they are coming from.

    I thought some of the regulations I have to deal with from Transport were silly, until I went to a fly in at another non regulated airport in Canada. Suddenly, I acquired a whole new appreciation for the "why". Common sense...not so common. Were there any deaths/incidents...no. Would there have been a flurry of lawsuits and clampdowns if something happened? Darn straight.

    It still doesn't explain away some of the silliness on the rotary wing parts, but I see what they are trying to prevent. So, instead of freaking out, I found it is better to keep the regulators on your side.

    You may not feel safer. ...but like I said, they do more than arrest people and play "killjoy".
    Give us $60,000 or we won't stop a terrorist if they attack. Really? The attacker last year also drove a truck through downtown. Are each of the businesses there going to have to pay for police protection on top of their taxes? The city hired an additional 33 officers just the because of the arena district. Does that mean that they won't respond to anything outside of a certain radius?

    If we're using full time, fully trained officers for nothing more than directing traffic, then we're wasting resources. It's no wonder that the charge is $122/hr for each of them.

    Maybe, just maybe, people are using irrational fear in order to make people think that there's a terrorist hiding behind every tree. That they only way we'll be safe is if we have armed officers always within our field of vision. If you can't see them then they can't see you and that means you're in deadly danger.

    What's next, police snipers on the light towers scanning the crowd at all times? Facial recognition cameras running background checks on everyone they see? Don't say it won't or can't happen because there's places that it already is. And people will be saying "It's for your own good".

    The police’s use of facial recognition technology will affect our daily freedoms


    While Christmas shopping in Cardiff last year, Ed Bridges noticed something strange. A van parked on the bustling street had a camera on top, watching the thousands walking by. By the time he was close enough to read ‘facial recognition fitted’, he knew it was too late. South Wales Police had scanned his face – and those of thousands of other shoppers. They’d become part of a vast digital line-up – without their knowledge, let alone their consent. Three months later, Ed joined a peaceful protest outside the Cardiff Arms Fair – and police parked a facial recognition van right alongside their demonstration. It felt like a direct attempt to intimidate protesters and discourage them from using their legal right to protest. Ed wrote to South Wales Police asking them to stop deploying live facial recognition in public spaces, but they refused.


    http://https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/1...3/?ito=cbshare



    Ah yes, instead of having a few dedicated officers to respond to calls at a festival, let's pull our already short handed police from the street. No bad can come from that right?

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...o-meet-targets

    I mean it's not like the police have a hard time responding to calls on time as it is right?

    And let's equate having a few dedicated officers tied to an event to a totalitarian authoritarian government. Ever heard of the slippery slope fallacy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I knew someone would be asinine enough to correlate KSEA's sad incident to this thread. Sorry, but the only correlation is an airplane. If you think someone could start, taxi, and the take off with no permission from an airshow....seriously...what is the Cessna going to do, run over the Herc immediately in front of it? If you think it could crash through the fencing blocking access undamaged and still fly?

    The $40,000 is assessed based on risk factors. That's all. Instead of whining and complaining, I just do this and strangely enough, I get no drama, no hassles.

    I will guarantee you Folk Fest has far far far greater security issues than an airshow. If I added the Blue Angels, then there is another level of course, but again, I expect that cost.
    Disappointing reply Richard. Countless unintended accidents, tragedies, have occurred at airshows around the world. So of course your emergency response and onsite emergency service provision costs would be high. I was merely bringing up the SeaTac incident which "isn't supposed to be able to happen" either.

    If you think a Folk festival is riskier than an airshow I don't even know what to say in response to that.


    Anyway its clear how this exchange will go so I'll end it.

    It is clear how it will end, or won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ...

    Fair enough although it's also fair to note atmosphere and the feel of a festival are part of what draw people there so it is something they have to think about. It does sound like they came to an agreement on lowering the number of officers visible on site at any one time.

    I would also still question the necessity for it. It does seem police forces are pushing to have more officers in places like this at the expense of the event. Personally I'd rather see more officers available to respond to the day to day theft issues in my neighbourhood.
    emphasis added...

    fair enough although who is going to make that assessment? the festival/event organizer or the licensing body/police? if efmf can “make their own call”, why not the motorcycle clubs of alberta or some of those fine people on the other side from charlottesville? the problem is never the events that aren’t a problem until the day they are and not necessarily of their own making. and that may not be the bogeyman terrorist, it could just as easily be a set of rival drug dealers.
    We don't charge one group of people for what some other group of people might do, do we? is there a special assessment in whyte ave. businesses every time there's a big crowd? What about an extra charge on residents who live near hooker strolls or dealer corners?

    Events with large crowds should be required to have crowd-management plans cleared with fire and health officials, and where there's a direct health risk they should provide on-site EMS or Fire Response where appropriate. Air shows should have a fire crew on site - but if the organizer can wrangle up a competent volunteer crew or in-kind donation it shouldn't be an issue for the authorities.

    Likewise, a rugby football or rugby tournament will often have paramedics on site, summer camps have a "nurse" - but they're not required pay the regulating authority for the privilege. Folk fest has security volunteers, and a first aid tent to deal with sun stroke and whatever else.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post

    Ah yes, instead of having a few dedicated officers to respond to calls at a festival, let's pull our already short handed police from the street. No bad can come from that right?

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...o-meet-targets

    I mean it's not like the police have a hard time responding to calls on time as it is right?

    And let's equate having a few dedicated officers tied to an event to a totalitarian authoritarian government. Ever heard of the slippery slope fallacy?
    The police should be thankful to the organizers for gathering all those citizens in one place so they can serve and protect them there, rather than having to waste all that time driving from place to place responding to complaints. These aren't new people conjured up for the folk fest, they would otherwise be somewhere else doing whatever it is they do.

    It's not a slope toward totalitarian government, but it is a step away from democratic principles of equality before the law when people in some places have their protection paid for from general taxes and other have to pay special fees.

    It's also a recipe for corruption when the regulating body is also the one that gets paid to provide the "service". I'm not alleging any actual corruption in this case but "the police" benefit more from requiring the public to pay for more police than the people at a festival do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    The Folk Festival started hiring a few police officers solely to direct traffic on 98th Avenue each evening after the Festival ended. This was solely the Festival engaging them as a result of observations on vehicular traffic and consultation with the Cloverdale Community.

    The latest came with no consultation until the 11th hour meeting on Monday mentioned in press reports - four days before the start.

    (...).
    Not true.

    The Folk Fest was informed months ago. I was made aware of then when I approached the City to discuss their service model in preparation for more US and Foreign military assets in 2019+. I need security assets should protected hardware arrive, so I was discussing with the RCMP, MP's, and EPS as to their options, agreements between departments, and requisite costs. This also included Prime Ministerial protection.

    This was back in March, and at that time there was discussion about how Folk Fest was told they would have to adhere to the new model.
    Absolutely not true and as some here will attest I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    As an aside to the security status of the festival. As she has every year, our premier was in attendance, on the hill with everyone else.
    Amarjeet Sohi was also there on Thursday evening with his wife and walked all over without a visible security detail or presence. Some people even enjoyed a beverage with him in the Beer Garden.

    BTW, the Premier's security people and the Folk Fest liased frequently both well before and during the Festival.

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    Joe Ceci was walking around as well, all by his lonesome.

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    As a final note, the Folk Festival will probably be striking a volunteer working committee in the early fall to deal with this issue specifically. Several ad hoc committees are formed post-Festival to deal with issues that arise whether over time as observed or on an emergent basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    As a final note, the Folk Festival will probably be striking a volunteer working committee in the early fall to deal with this issue specifically. Several ad hoc committees are formed post-Festival to deal with issues that arise whether over time as observed or on an emergent basis.
    on “this issue specifically”, i would be interested in knowing whether the additional policing provided this year did have either a real or perceived negative impact on “the vibe”, whether it added to a sense of comfort/safety (ie encouraging attendance by those who normally have their own security at public events to forego that at efmf), or whether it was pretty much a non-issue either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    As a final note, the Folk Festival will probably be striking a volunteer working committee in the early fall to deal with this issue specifically. Several ad hoc committees are formed post-Festival to deal with issues that arise whether over time as observed or on an emergent basis.
    on “this issue specifically”, i would be interested in knowing whether the additional policing provided this year did have either a real or perceived negative impact on “the vibe”, whether it added to a sense of comfort/safety (ie encouraging attendance by those who normally have their own security at public events to forego that at efmf), or whether it was pretty much a non-issue either way.
    You will have to ask the people to whom you refer directly as to their security requirements whether at the Folk Fest or elsewhere.

    As for the vibe, the number of complaints and questions why the Police presence was there far outnumbered the compliments both from my personal knowledge and from what I was told by others. One positive note was the suggestion made to the Police that their bullet-proof/stab-proof vests that they wore on Thursday without exception were perhaps unnecessary and those vests disappeared by Friday for the weekend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    As a final note, the Folk Festival will probably be striking a volunteer working committee in the early fall to deal with this issue specifically. Several ad hoc committees are formed post-Festival to deal with issues that arise whether over time as observed or on an emergent basis.
    on “this issue specifically”, i would be interested in knowing whether the additional policing provided this year did have either a real or perceived negative impact on “the vibe”, whether it added to a sense of comfort/safety (ie encouraging attendance by those who normally have their own security at public events to forego that at efmf), or whether it was pretty much a non-issue either way.
    You will have to ask the people to whom you refer directly as to their security requirements whether at the Folk Fest or elsewhere.

    As for the vibe, the number of complaints and questions why the Police presence was there far outnumbered the compliments both from my personal knowledge and from what I was told by others. One positive note was the suggestion made to the Police that their bullet-proof/stab-proof vests that they wore on Thursday without exception were perhaps unnecessary and those vests disappeared by Friday for the weekend!
    Thanks for the info, it's appreciated.

    Personally I'm not terribly bothered by their presence at the festival except as it seems to be a waste of resources on their part. Response times and results for neighbourhood issues are not great and I'd rather they dealt with the day to day issues than divert resources.

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