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Thread: Michener Park (UofA) to close by 2020 - redevelopment

  1. #1
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    Default Michener Park (UofA) to close by 2020 - redevelopment

    Quite the redevelopment opportunity.

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...dation-by-2020
    www.decl.org

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  2. #2

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    I've seen Michener Park and the buildings; it's definitely not a great place to reside. This area and Lister Hall need to go. New buildings over the Lister Hall area would be great, especially for all the international students staying there.

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    Lister has a new tower and renovations coming. International students had a new building about 10 years ago and there are a lot of new options in the area, but families may have issues finding a spot. I wonder if this will accelerate the South Campus residential development along 122st and 113st.
    www.decl.org

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    I wonder if it would be wiser to have some kind of housing closer to the South Campus LRT.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    The plan is to have housing on the far NEC and NWC of the site to act as a buffer... but now the Super Lab is going where housing was generally planned, so it will have to move inward and south.

    But yes, near the LRT is preferable and logical.
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    Damn you Super Lab!

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    This development is so weird... it turns it back on the community and offers no connectivity. It reminds me of a ghetto.

    The loss of family housing at the university is unfortunate, it given the cost maybe the university should get out of housing all together.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This development is so weird... it turns it back on the community and offers no connectivity. It reminds me of a ghetto.

    The loss of family housing at the university is unfortunate, it given the cost maybe the university should get out of housing all together.
    "maybe the university should get out of housing all together."

    No "maybe" about it. Some financial discipline needs to be imposed by Government to redirect the Boards attention to actual teaching and research. Government needs to STOP providing low cost loans to construct housing infrastructure and let the private sector step up and do what they do best, and provide taxpayers some tax relief.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    This development is so weird... it turns it back on the community and offers no connectivity. It reminds me of a ghetto.

    The loss of family housing at the university is unfortunate, it given the cost maybe the university should get out of housing all together.
    "maybe the university should get out of housing all together."

    No "maybe" about it. Some financial discipline needs to be imposed by Government to redirect the Boards attention to actual teaching and research. Government needs to STOP providing low cost loans to construct housing infrastructure and let the private sector step up and do what they do best, and provide taxpayers some tax relief.
    If U of A doesn't offer student housing it will not be able to attract strong applicants.

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    They have already gone on record as saying that they want more of a campus life and that includes more housing.
    www.decl.org

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    ^^^Wouldn't it be pretty rare for a major post-secondary institution not to offer housing of some kind? What you propose is radical.
    ďSon, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmontonís skyline.Ē

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    ^^^Wouldn't it be pretty rare for a major post-secondary institution not to offer housing of some kind? What you propose is radical.
    Maybe itís
    Something that could be done via a P3. Remove the risk from the universities books.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    ^^^Wouldn't it be pretty rare for a major post-secondary institution not to offer housing of some kind? What you propose is radical.
    Maybe itís
    Something that could be done via a P3. Remove the risk from the universities books.
    What risk is that exactly?

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    ^^^Wouldn't it be pretty rare for a major post-secondary institution not to offer housing of some kind? What you propose is radical.
    Maybe itís
    Something that could be done via a P3. Remove the risk from the universities books.
    What risk is that exactly?
    As per the journal article. Some 25 million of defered maintenance will be removed from the books by closing down this housing complex.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    ^^^Wouldn't it be pretty rare for a major post-secondary institution not to offer housing of some kind? What you propose is radical.
    Maybe itís
    Something that could be done via a P3. Remove the risk from the universities books.
    What risk is that exactly?
    As per the journal article. Some 25 million of defered maintenance will be removed from the books by closing down this housing complex.
    That sounds more like a liability than risk.

  16. #16

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    If you donít think the two go hand in hand then I donít know what to say.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    If you donít think the two go hand in hand then I donít know what to say.
    Risk has a very specific meaning though: it refers to the performance of an investment, specifically the probability that its return will be less than what was anticipated.

    A liability is a financial obligation, often (as in this case) somewhat predictable.

    The two of them don't have to go hand in hand at all.

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    Large universities own billions of dollars worth of real estate and buildings, and are well versed in how to build and maintain them. Why is it only student residences that they should not be involved with? Should we also ban universities from building their own campuses, and insist that they also be some form of P3 or private development? I'm struggling to see why residences have more "risk" in them than the other 90%+ of their assets.

  19. #19

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    Risk is more than how well an investment preforms. Risk is about exposure.

    By owning and running properties, of any type, the universities open themselves to the risk associates to those properties so there isnít only the planned/scheduled costs there are also the unexpected ones.

    We often flout P3ís as a way of reducing risk because we replace certain unknowns with a knowen contractual expense

  20. #20

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    At one time they also used to be well versed at providing food services, but at some time they got out of that game as well...

    At some point the figured out they would be better off contracting out the service because it wasnít core to their mandate.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 24-07-2018 at 03:44 PM.

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    So again, are you advocating that all University's should immediately sell all of their real estate and buildings to the private sector? I'm not talking simply of residences, but ALL of their buildings. Again, in dollar values, residences are a small fraction of their overall portfolio. You haven't explained why residences are uniquely risky vs. their other institutional buildings, if you believe so.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Risk is more than how well an investment preforms. Risk is about exposure.

    By owning and running properties, of any type, the universities open themselves to the risk associates to those properties so there isnít only the planned/scheduled costs there are also the unexpected ones.

    We often flout P3ís as a way of reducing risk because we replace certain unknowns with a knowen contractual expense
    Have you never heard of insurance?

  23. #23

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    I was an insurance broker in fact, you canít get insurance for everything. Further to that thought, given the size of the university they may wish to self insure some aspects of their operation. Iím not their risk manager so there is no way I could know for sure.

    Regardless. I just read an interesting article about how universities are struggling to provide enough housing, the programs they are undertaking and solutions they are testing. The answer isnít always for the school to build more beds.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    So again, are you advocating that all University's should immediately sell all of their real estate and buildings to the private sector? I'm not talking simply of residences, but ALL of their buildings. Again, in dollar values, residences are a small fraction of their overall portfolio. You haven't explained why residences are uniquely risky vs. their other institutional buildings, if you believe so.
    Donít be absurd. Iím advocating no such thing. Selling off a portion or an aspect does not mean they have to sell off everything. Thatís just dumb.

  25. #25

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    Lastly. Agreements between business and universities to supply housing is already occurring and was proposed here in Edmonton in the Healy lands if I remember correctly. Here are some more.

    https://renx.ca/alignvest-student-ho...irst-purchase/

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Lastly. Agreements between business and universities to supply housing is already occurring and was proposed here in Edmonton in the Healy lands if I remember correctly. Here are some more.

    https://renx.ca/alignvest-student-ho...irst-purchase/
    Alignvest are just a company that are trying to make money from the student housing sector. Nothing wrong with that but they don't have agreements with universities (at least none that are public) and they're certainly not a P3.

    I agree the answer isn't always to build more beds but that's a far cry from selling off all on-campus housing.

  27. #27

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    https://www.eberly.net/portfolio/p3-...onega-georgia/

    http://getlucro.com/lucro-deal-revie...ampus-housing/

    https://www.onvia.com/company/blog/p...dent-housing-0

    Anyways this is getting tiresome. The university can continue to offer housing, it doesn’t have to come at the tax payer expense. They don’t have to sell everything. Nor do they have to be the sole provider.

    So so stop acting like what I questioned is radical, because it isn’t.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    https://www.eberly.net/portfolio/p3-...onega-georgia/

    http://getlucro.com/lucro-deal-revie...ampus-housing/

    https://www.onvia.com/company/blog/p...dent-housing-0

    Anyways this is getting tiresome. The university can continue to offer housing, it doesnít have to come at the tax payer expense. They donít have to sell everything. Nor do they have to be the sole provider.

    So so stop acting like what I questioned is radical, because it isnít.
    It might not be radical, it's just poorly presented. You've gone from the university should get out of the housing business altogether to just now saying they can continue to offer housing. You've gone from saying that universities owning property of any sort creates all sorts of problems to just now saying it's fine. You've gone from saying they should commit to a known contractual expense of a P3 to just now saying no taxpayer funds whatsoever should go to student housing. Small wonder that you're getting tired.

  29. #29

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    Good lord you read what you want into things.

    Firslty i posed a question. MAYBE the university should get out of the housing biz. You know what never mind. I’m over your poor understanding of what risk is and your sarcastic remarks about insurance.

    The fact is the university wants expanded student housing and there sure as **** not going to be heaps of new money coming in anytime soon. So I’ll leave you to figure out how that problem is solved.

    Ttfn
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Good lord you read what you want into things.

    Firslty i posed a question. MAYBE the university should get out of the housing biz. You know what never mind. Iím over your poor understanding of what risk is and your sarcastic remarks about insurance.

    The fact is the university wants expanded student housing and there sure as **** not going to be heaps of new money coming in anytime soon. So Iíll leave you to figure out how that problem is solved.

    Ttfn
    Good, this all started when you confused risk with liability and then the hole you dug for yourself got deeper from there so overall it's probably best if you leave this to others.

  31. #31

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    A liability is a risk.

    Wow.... back to this hey...

    Bless

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    A liability is a risk.

    Wow.... back to this hey...

    Bless
    No, a liability is not a risk. They are different.

    A liability is an obligation: a debt to be paid. It's a line item on a balance sheet.

    Risk is the probability of return being less than anticipated. Or, more generally, the probability of something bad happening. Risk does not appear as a line item on a balance sheet.

    An organization can have massive liabilities but not be exposed to any risk. Conversely, an organization can be exposed to huge risk but have no current liabilities.

  33. #33

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    And what is the U of A’s unfunded infrastructure deficit (liability) exactly? What is a housing development that has burned through its reserve fund? These are risks. Any future liabilities arising from this property is clearly a risk to an organization that has limited ways to raise capital. You clearly understand that a liability can also an also be a risk.

    This property is clearly a risk the university does not want to carry. This is why, in part, they are closing it.

    Moving on.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  34. #34

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    And what is the U of Aís unfunded infrastructure deficit (liability) exactly? What is a housing development that has burned through its reserve fund? These are risks. Any future liabilities arising from this property is clearly a risk to an organization that has limited ways to raise capital. You clearly understand that a liability can also an also be a risk.

    This property is clearly a risk the university does not want to carry. This is why, in part, they are closing it.

    Moving on.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  35. #35

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    I wonder how viable it is to return all the units to habital conditions given Edmonton’s current housing market and the location.

    Anyone know the legalities of how the university goes about selling land?

    Does this just just become an empty dead site and a target for vandalism?

    How is this fair to the people in the community?

    There are some real serious question to be answered and I know that some people who live around the U of A farm and south campus don’t trust the organization to do well for their communities.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    So again, are you advocating that all University's should immediately sell all of their real estate and buildings to the private sector? I'm not talking simply of residences, but ALL of their buildings. Again, in dollar values, residences are a small fraction of their overall portfolio. You haven't explained why residences are uniquely risky vs. their other institutional buildings, if you believe so.
    Don’t be absurd. I’m advocating no such thing. Selling off a portion or an aspect does not mean they have to sell off everything. That’s just dumb.
    So again, why is it just residential property that universities should not be building/owning/maintaining?

    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte
    It might not be radical, it's just poorly presented. You've gone from the university should get out of the housing business altogether to just now saying they can continue to offer housing. You've gone from saying that universities owning property of any sort creates all sorts of problems to just now saying it's fine. You've gone from saying they should commit to a known contractual expense of a P3 to just now saying no taxpayer funds whatsoever should go to student housing. Small wonder that you're getting tired.
    Basically this. EDP, if you don't want to defend silly statements, don't make them in the first place, double down, then try to move the goal posts when the silliness becomes self evident.

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