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Thread: What’s done more harm: Racism or sexism?

  1. #1

    Default What’s done more harm: Racism or sexism?

    I’m curious about the different insights and perspectives in this.

  2. #2

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    Ask a First Nations woman. You might learn something.
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  3. #3
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    sometimes i think there is more harm than good in thinking about and trying to identify a difference between various forms of abuse and discrimination...

    they are both really about power, or more accurately the abuse of power, not about race or sex.

    and when we allow for - and look for - some kind of separation or distinction between "different types" of abuse and discrimination, we start to enable it instead of combatting it.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  4. #4

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    I agree. It is like, do you want to be beaten with a bat or a hammer. Either one is not good.

    Power affects greed, sexism, racism, good government and just about every aspect of life. Most of the richest people, from individuals to entire rich nations have walked all over, exploited and abused the poor and weak to make their wealth.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Ask a First Nations woman. You might learn something.
    Same advice goes for you.

    I hope that the "something" you learn is that individuals think differently and hold different opinions, irrelevant of race or sex. And they don't need you to preach what their opinions are.

  6. #6

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    Coming from you, that is rich.

    Have you every hired an indigenous woman? I have and some were my most trusted employees. I don't just talk but I also walk the walk. I stand by my record of hiring and working with people and treating everyone fairly and equally but no one the same. That is because every person is different and has different needs and goals.

    We all know what your views are as they are as clearly on your sleeve in the Trump threads.
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    sometimes i think there is more harm than good in thinking about and trying to identify a difference between various forms of abuse and discrimination...

    they are both really about power, or more accurately the abuse of power, not about race or sex.

    and when we allow for - and look for - some kind of separation or distinction between "different types" of abuse and discrimination, we start to enable it instead of combatting it.
    All an aside, but yes I agree, and it highlights one of my concerns with constitutional rights. In order to be treated properly people have to identify as as something or other then organize themselves into some sort of fighting group and then fight for decades for a clear statement of inclusion under one of the sacred few chosen “rights”. The constitution came into force decades ago yet generations have passed before what seems like simple common respect and equality is “won” via some Supreme Court decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    (…)

    they are both really about power, or more accurately the abuse of power, not about race or sex.

    (…).
    X2

    You can boil down most of the issues today to power....the drive for it...the abuse of it when attained...and the problems that arise when you lose it.

    Whether it is controlling an agenda, conversation, education...it is power. Dividing into tribes, labels, groups, etc...pointless.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  9. #9

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    The unintended side of an ism, and found in marginalism, is that identification with the concept that one is suffering from marginalism opens up a potential mindset of limiting ones self determination. That life, success, results are immutable and success is for some, and not for others, based on group, and which does not provide the individual with as much hope for self driven success.

    The adoption of marginalism mindset as a key factor in one's life arguably results in marginalism. It can make individuals that much less inclined to believe in autonomy and to instead believe in predetermined design. I think that doesn't get stated enough.

    Psychically complete generations focused on wrongdoings that occurred 50, 100, 200 or more years is an arguable focus on the negative. A focus on limiters, a focus on intergenerational trauma (a disputed paradigm to begin with) and that even postulates that trauma experienced by ones forefathers is innately sensed in some way by progeny who are further impacted even though the trauma was not directly experienced.


    Jordan Peterson, one of the few that does consider the cons of marginalism impetus, stresses that too much focus on marginalism is a race to the bottom in which failure ultimately becomes the focus.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-06-2018 at 12:55 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Have you every hired an indigenous woman? I have and some were my most trusted employees.

    You seem to be trying extra hard to add some bonus virtue to your morality score with this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Have you every hired an indigenous woman? I have and some were my most trusted employees.

    You seem to be trying extra hard to add some bonus virtue to your morality score with this post.
    says one anonymous internet poster to another as if calling it out might somehow add some bonus virtue to his morality score...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Have you every hired an indigenous woman? I have and some were my most trusted employees.

    You seem to be trying extra hard to add some bonus virtue to your morality score with this post.
    I see you did not answer the question. Instead you try character assassination as an offensive tactic.


    At least I have a morality and ethics score. Are you envious?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The unintended side of an ism, and found in marginalism, is that identification with the concept that one is suffering from marginalism opens up a potential mindset of limiting ones self determination. That life, success, results are immutable and success is for some, and not for others, based on group, and which does not provide the individual with as much hope for self driven success.

    The adoption of marginalism mindset as a key factor in one's life arguably results in marginalism. It can make individuals that much less inclined to believe in autonomy and to instead believe in predetermined design. I think that doesn't get stated enough.

    Psychically complete generations focused on wrongdoings that occurred 50, 100, 200 or more years is an arguable focus on the negative. A focus on limiters, a focus on intergenerational trauma (a disputed paradigm to begin with) and that even postulates that trauma experienced by ones forefathers is innately sensed in some way by progeny who are further impacted even though the trauma was not directly experienced.


    Jordan Peterson, one of the few that does consider the cons of marginalism impetus, stresses that too much focus on marginalism is a race to the bottom in which failure ultimately becomes the focus.
    A topic for another thread is property rights and inheritance and privilege and penalty based on luck of circumstance at birth. Warren Buffett has made the comment of the inequity of wealthy children being born with a “lifetime supply food stamps”. The prince becoming the king, the first born male inheriting the farm, etc. That’s one extreme. The other is the children of the slave becoming a slave, the child born to an untouchable becoming an untouchable.

    It’s the past decisions, errors, aggressions, etc that created intergenerational dictates, the intergenerational advantages and disadvantages children inherit that challenges ideals of meritocracy and fairness and the ability to rise above or fall below one’s “station” in life. (Eg First Nations treaties being signed by people (long dead) with wholly different concepts of ownership, etc with one side possibly believing they were signing for the sharing of land and not the sale of land adds a different perspective on the subsequent fate of the generations born since. ) So the subsequent abilities, conditions and rights of progeny is fascinating as people are born into an ‘ism, sometimes a beneficial ‘ism and sometimes a penalizing ‘ism.
    Last edited by KC; 28-06-2018 at 02:10 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Have you every hired an indigenous woman? I have and some were my most trusted employees.

    You seem to be trying extra hard to add some bonus virtue to your morality score with this post.
    I see you did not answer the question. Instead you try character assassination as an offensive tactic.


    At least I have a morality and ethics score. Are you envious?
    seeing as how i jumped in to this conversation in one direction, i may as well jump into it in the other direction...

    kudos for your decisions and for the results but you were also in a position to make those hires in the first place.

    i know scores of people who have never hired another person of any description for any job. that fact does not give them a lower morality and ethics score than someone who has had that opportunity. the question you're still wanting an answer to is on its own self-serving and meaningless.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  15. #15

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    ...

    Which Is Worse? Racism, or Sexism, or Asking Which Is Worse?

    “...the racism vs. sexism query is one that should never be posed much less dignified with whatever could possibly pass for an answer. It’s conceptualism at its nadir. (It has all of the futility of kids arguing over whether Superman or Spider Man would win in a fight, but with none of the charm.) Worse yet, the question, by its nature, invites the most base form of competition for victim status: Like a bad cultural studies ...”

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/convictio..._is_worse.html


    OBSCURING THE IMPORTANCE OF RACE: THE IMPLICATION OF MAKING COMPARISONS BETWEEN RACISM AND SEXISM
    (OR OTHER -ISMS)
    TRINA GRILLO*
    AND STEPHANIE M. WILDMAN**


    https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi...48&context=dlj
    Last edited by KC; 28-06-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Have you every hired an indigenous woman? I have and some were my most trusted employees.

    You seem to be trying extra hard to add some bonus virtue to your morality score with this post.
    I see you did not answer the question. Instead you try character assassination as an offensive tactic.


    At least I have a morality and ethics score. Are you envious?
    seeing as how i jumped in to this conversation in one direction, i may as well jump into it in the other direction...

    kudos for your decisions and for the results but you were also in a position to make those hires in the first place.

    i know scores of people who have never hired another person of any description for any job. that fact does not give them a lower morality and ethics score than someone who has had that opportunity. the question you're still wanting an answer to is on its own self-serving and meaningless.

    MrOilers could have simply said that he never hired anyone and I would have accepted that. Instead he instead went the route of character assassination. He made that choice.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  17. #17

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    Racism And Sexism Look Different Than You Think

    BRYCE COVERT
    MAY 21, 2014

    https://thinkprogress.org/racism-and...-11fff684da21/



    Sexism and Racism Linked to Personality
    By Stephanie Pappas, Live Science Contributor | November 9, 2011

    Excerpts:
    Sexism and racism go hand-in-hand, suggests new research that finds sexist and racist people are those who are likely to approve of hierarchies. ...”

    “Personality, racism and sexism

    The researchers also found that sexism and racism are likely to occur in the same people. People with high sexist tendencies also tended to score low in intercultural sensitivity, or empathy and interest in other cultures. Sexists interacted little with immigrants to ...”

    https://www.livescience.com/16961-se...rsonality.html
    Last edited by KC; 02-08-2018 at 08:27 AM.

  18. #18

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    All forms of bigotry have done equal harm, but the worst, in moral rather than criminal or physical terms, is the bloviating exercise in pseudo-thinking that by pretending to examine it, justifies it, and always in the name of the true oppressors -- those in power, and, much worse, their degenerate and immoral children.

  19. #19

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    Social media and its "Social Justice" has done more harm than anything when it comes to racism and sexism thanks to being guilty the moment someone says something about someone. Things get blown up, people lose their jobs, reputations are ruined, all before there's any kind of investigation or official report given. If you actually follow up on these stories, you'd be surprised how many turn out to be BS. But those stories about how something was made up don't make the headlines, only the initial accusation does. By the time a person if found not guilty, social media and news media is too busy trying to destroy someone else's life with "today's rumor".
    Last edited by alkeli; 02-08-2018 at 01:42 PM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    All forms of bigotry have done equal harm, but the worst, in moral rather than criminal or physical terms, is the bloviating exercise in pseudo-thinking that by pretending to examine it, justifies it, and always in the name of the true oppressors -- those in power, and, much worse, their degenerate and immoral children.
    As an aside, you really do seem to have a lot of pent up anger.

    I do love this one though: “pseudo-thinking”. (Sounds great but I’m afraid it’s meaning is beyond my little brain’s ability to understand. Give me some time in this please.)

    Is this an example: “equal harm, but the worst”

    When you say “those in power” who are you talking about. Politicians, leaders, chiefs, judges, teachers, doctors, managers, coaches, parents, wives,...


    As for children being “degenerate and immoral“. I’m afraid I’ll need a lot more time to think and learn about that one.


    Lastly AShetsen, according to this article below, if you happen to be a white male, “we were pretty sure that white men in America functionally can’t be oppressed or discriminated against, being that they’re white and male, just like the people who historically created (and therefore benefited from) all the systems in our society.” So I’m maybe pseudo-thinking that you too (if you are a male-white / white-male) are one of those “in power” that are the “true oppressors”.

    There’s no escaping being part of the problem I guess.




    What to say to white men who think they're being discriminated against - HelloGiggles

    Excerpt:

    “...we were pretty sure that white men in America functionally can’t be oppressed or discriminated against, being that they’re white and male, just like the people who historically created (and therefore benefited from) all the systems in our society.”

    https://hellogiggles.com/news/heres-...nated-against/
    Last edited by KC; 03-08-2018 at 12:36 AM.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Racism And Sexism Look Different Than You Think

    BRYCE COVERT
    MAY 21, 2014

    https://thinkprogress.org/racism-and...-11fff684da21/



    Sexism and Racism Linked to Personality
    By Stephanie Pappas, Live Science Contributor | November 9, 2011

    Excerpts:
    Sexism and racism go hand-in-hand, suggests new research that finds sexist and racist people are those who are likely to approve of hierarchies. ...”

    “Personality, racism and sexism

    The researchers also found that sexism and racism are likely to occur in the same people. People with high sexist tendencies also tended to score low in intercultural sensitivity, or empathy and interest in other cultures. Sexists interacted little with immigrants to ...”

    https://www.livescience.com/16961-se...rsonality.html
    Just as footnote this is a longitudinal study and citing 40-50years of background. So that when the article states something like; “Employers sought candidates who were not only competent but also culturally similar to themselves.” It isn't taking into account decades of more recent equal opportunity hire practice and firms that consider minority hiring.

    The article also plays with this by stating "Certain jobs" multiple times without mentioning what those, or the scope are. Presumably they looked more at industry not adopting affirmative action hiring processes which were put into place to counter or redress such "similar hiring" aspects.

    But the article also is oddly written. for instance this part; "Instead of hostile acts like using racial slurs, keeping people out of certain jobs, or denying housing to certain races, the majority of of discrimination is caused by giving favorable treatment to someone who shares your characteristics, the researchers found" My own take would be that not hiring people of a different race or creed would be more hostile than some words. Certainly more salient I would think to the person being excluded.
    Last edited by Replacement; 03-08-2018 at 08:35 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    All forms of bigotry have done equal harm, but the worst, in moral rather than criminal or physical terms, is the bloviating exercise in pseudo-thinking that by pretending to examine it, justifies it, and always in the name of the true oppressors -- those in power, and, much worse, their degenerate and immoral children.
    As an aside, you really do seem to have a lot of pent up anger.

    I do love this one though: “pseudo-thinking”. (Sounds great but I’m afraid it’s meaning is beyond my little brain’s ability to understand. Give me some time in this please.)

    Is this an example: “equal harm, but the worst”

    When you say “those in power” who are you talking about. Politicians, leaders, chiefs, judges, teachers, doctors, managers, coaches, parents, wives,...


    As for children being “degenerate and immoral“. I’m afraid I’ll need a lot more time to think and learn about that one.


    Lastly AShetsen, according to this article below, if you happen to be a white male, “we were pretty sure that white men in America functionally can’t be oppressed or discriminated against, being that they’re white and male, just like the people who historically created (and therefore benefited from) all the systems in our society.” So I’m maybe pseudo-thinking that you too (if you are a male-white / white-male) are one of those “in power” that are the “true oppressors”.

    There’s no escaping being part of the problem I guess.




    What to say to white men who think they're being discriminated against - HelloGiggles

    Excerpt:

    “...we were pretty sure that white men in America functionally can’t be oppressed or discriminated against, being that they’re white and male, just like the people who historically created (and therefore benefited from) all the systems in our society.”

    https://hellogiggles.com/news/heres-...nated-against/
    I wouldn't characterize it as anger so much. More the case its the increasingly common use of polarized tropes. A reflection of a person that has read or been heavily influenced by some ideology but without firm grounding in competing ideology or thought. So that it temporarily at least renders the person likely to make severe and absolute encompassing comments about almost anything. Often embodied are easily dispelled segments of thought that are obviously conflicting and almost seemingly ironic. Except that within the author the subtext of patterned thought they have adopted beyond else allows them, in their mind, to make such commentary seemingly bereft of any deeper understanding of the complexity of any particular debate. Perhaps ironically these mimic patterns of thought that such authors would despise if they were utilized by any extremist ideology that wants to simplify and label as its purpose.


    A critical question for us all, in our existence, and that probably challenges us all, or should, is whether we are present day philosophers or ideologues. In out better days we would want to see truth(for lack of better English word), in our worst we want absolutes. (albeit this framed simply just for illustration) The ideologue, perhaps ironically, just wants power. They just think they should have it.

    This is a nice article that encapsulates that theme well;

    http://fosterspeak.blogspot.com/2012...ers-lenin.html




    Another difficulty that has obviously infected online discourse is that some individuals potentially want to engage in formulaic patterned responses. Not to really discuss, but to make bold sweeping generalizations and character attacts as tactical void. Really what is the absence of discussion and more just adopted strawman framework.
    Last edited by Replacement; 03-08-2018 at 08:33 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  23. #23

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    Now that was a calm and thoughtful answer. Thank you.

    As for ideology, philosophy, etc., it seems to me that unfortunately many people devote their lives to looking for and creating commonalities and general principles and not looking at individuals as individuals*. I think what you are describing as “absolutes”. They embrace normals, norms, averages, stereotypes and gross generalizations and so exclude the statistical tails, the exceptions, etc from their typecasting. In doing so they then drag all those excluded exceptions back into their grossly generalized agglomeration of a group. We see it all the time even where we should know better as in the use of averages rather than means. In my view they are just excluding the reality of a complex population or complex system (economy, political spectrum, wealth, health, safety, authoritarianism, populism, nationalism, etc) as they force their gross ideological generalization onto the world.

    * one of my first jobs (besides being a labourer shovelling gravel, a janitor, etc) was compiling a health statistics paper where the collected data is always formed around preconceived and simplistic notions of what would correlate - such as alcoholism and profession. Then when the data shows lawyers drink a hell of a lot. There is no looking at all those that don’t or the characteristics of those that do drink a lot. So actual cause and effect is never pursued. Moreover for professionals the labels alcoholic or addict aren’t applied while it if lesser findings are found for non-professionals then the labels come out. Same happened for bullying where they were described as socially inept when both the data and observation showed the opposite. Preconceived notions and selective bias mean the steotypes aren’t challenged. All the non-confirmative evidence is ignored rather than highlighted as worthy of understanding.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Now that was a calm and thoughtful answer. Thank you.

    As for ideology, philosophy, etc., it seems to me that unfortunately many people devote their lives to looking for and creating commonalities and general principles and not looking at individuals as individuals*. I think what you are describing as “absolutes”. They embrace normals, norms, averages, stereotypes and gross generalizations and so exclude the statistical tails, the exceptions, etc from their typecasting. In doing so they then drag all those excluded exceptions back into their grossly generalized agglomeration of a group. We see it all the time even where we should know better as in the use of averages rather than means. In my view they are just excluding the reality of a complex population or complex system (economy, political spectrum, wealth, health, safety, authoritarianism, populism, nationalism, etc) as they force their gross ideological generalization onto the world.

    * one of my first jobs (besides being a labourer shovelling gravel, a janitor, etc) was compiling a health statistics paper where the collected data is always formed around preconceived and simplistic notions of what would correlate - such as alcoholism and profession. Then when the data shows lawyers drink a hell of a lot. There is no looking at all those that don’t or the characteristics of those that do drink a lot. So actual cause and effect is never pursued. Moreover for professionals the labels alcoholic or addict aren’t applied while it if lesser findings are found for non-professionals then the labels come out. Same happened for bullying where they were described as socially inept when both the data and observation showed the opposite. Preconceived notions and selective bias mean the steotypes aren’t challenged. All the non-confirmative evidence is ignored rather than highlighted as worthy of understanding.
    Thank you as well. That about captures it.

    Confirmation bias is a means to reducing conflicting thought and cognitive dissonance. So polarized thought functions in that way. It offers false comforts of absolutes. Or tropes. Or being we're talking on the internet, memes.

    I think a helpful reframe to remember is that the internet has provided an avenue and public realm of thought that didn't formerly exist. So that now every person can engage in the great debates. Prior, philosophical debate would occupy sanctioned, even tenured high office by those that were lifelong mired in the mist and no casual pursuit. Life long dedication. Or that it occurred amongst student budding philosophers in hallowed halls. Or maybe libraries, coffee houses or speakers corners by those that were philosopher hobbyists. Now everything is a speakers corner everywhere you look.

    What has CHANGED is that formerly you or I would be most exposed to philosophical discourse being made through the most learned channels. But now we're as likely to see it in our everyman attempts to capture all too fleeting logic online. Because essentially none of us are Bertrand Russell.

    The sad thing is that of course ideology and idealogues are manifest online. Unfortunately it really is reshaping our thoughts, society and so that higher principles, highest thought is being subverted by the masses. Who then observe the world and make decisions on half based, or baked principles.

    If thought in present day appears to be increasingly random do not adjust your screen, just turn off the internet.

    I'm jk, Although "correcting the internet" is a funny meme, its also important to inject alternate thinking to it, where and when one can. To this end I often appreciate you sharing citations, quotations, and alternate looks, which you do.
    Last edited by Replacement; 03-08-2018 at 09:30 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  25. #25

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    They are both harmful... period.

    This thread should be closed before it turns into something ugly

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    They are both harmful... period.
    But which has done MORE harm? That is the question.

  27. #27

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    Racism has affected people everywhere but within countries or tribes it’s aftectedd those with different religions, appearances, politics, and other beliefs. In some countries and tribes though, I’d guess that a lot of homogeneity on different fronts reduced racism to some degree. At the margins or borders and among immigrants and I’d guess that racism has always been everywhere. Sexism? Everywhere.

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