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Thread: Pride Parade 2018

  1. #1
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    Default Pride Parade 2018

    Decided to check out the Pride parade this year.
    Haven't been to it since it left downtown a couple of years ago.
    Apart from a couple of bursts of rain plus a protest that held it up for over 40 minutes, the parade was a resounding success!
    Skipped the after-parade festivities due to more rain.



































    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Great pictures, thankyou! I was sorry to hear about the protesters, it totally put me off going to the pride parade again..very disappointing

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    Personally, I'm not sure what the protestor issue is about. Is this an issue in Edmonton, with Edmonton's police force policy and members? Or is it an issue with police forces somewhere else?



    Edmonton Pride parade blocked by protesters upset by police participation


    The society explained at the time that in many communities, police enforcement agencies were seen to make marginalized people feel unsafe.


    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmont...tion-1.3967000
    Last edited by KC; 09-06-2018 at 11:57 PM.

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    They were trying to be inclusive by excluding others.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    They were trying to be inclusive by excluding others.
    Exactly, and to me that's very very wrong. If a van decided to mow down people in the parade, they'd want the police then!

    I'm pro gay marriage, I've argued most of my life for gay rights. But I'm done, they are complaining about nothing..BLM took over the Toronto pride parade..,

  6. #6

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    Well, I don’t walk in their shoes though I have some experience with encountering intolerance and ironically it’s related to people experiencing intolerance themselves (or against their family members) being intolerant of others with different differences.

    My sense is that people want equality for themselves but not others and are prone to being racist, discriminatory, stereotyping, negatively gross generalizating themselves. People are people.

    If these protesters were attacking say members of an Islamic sect marching in the parade the protesters would very likely have been called racist.


    It’s an interesting problem. If police and military marched as individuals and not representatives of their employers that might be more acceptable, however our culture has committed atrocities by trying to treat everyone as equal and forcing assimilation of peoples that define themselves as collectives and not individuals. Our society is learning that while our constitutional rights focus primarily on individual right or individualize for rights and equality, it doesn’t adequately address communal or collective rights very well beyond freedom of religion, etc.

    Discrimination against people because of their association by career choice, isn’t that much different than discrimination against people because of their association by other forms of self identity.

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    I think this Twitter thread by Bashir Mohamed is worth reading to understand some of the context behind it.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BashirMoh...54790384918528
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I think this Twitter thread by Bashir Mohamed is worth reading to understand some of the context behind it.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BashirMoh...54790384918528
    Excellent information.

    I very slightly discount some of the historical information because it may involve people that are no longer even alive and it may relate to people that have different views today. Nonetheless, those wronged and their progeny, friends, associations were impacted and those impacts roll forward and become multigenerational. However, those wanting change can’t be rigid and dogmatic about forever maintaining a hostility towards future generations that are members of a group committed past atrocities but hopefully are evolving. While some sides need time to evolve and accept responsibility for past ‘sins’, I think victimized sides risk devolving to get revenge and sometimes even attain one-upmanship (eg between nation states).

    I see the examples of the more recent events as serious cause for concern and are highly relevant. EPS is specifically named so then their concerns reflect issues taking place in our own “community” either by individual EPS members acting out of their own misguided believes or as a reflection of more broadly held beliefs, if not flawed policy.


    From that same twitter link, this was interesting:

    Siobhan O'Leary
    @SiobhanFTB
    ·
    8m
    Several meetings have been scheduled as a consequence of the protest. Requests for such meetings were ignored until now. Don't forget that, the protest is literally the only thing that worked.

    Last edited by KC; 10-06-2018 at 09:13 AM.

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    Everyone is flawed, including Bashir.

    He is making things worse imho, not better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I think this Twitter thread by Bashir Mohamed is worth reading to understand some of the context behind it.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BashirMoh...54790384918528
    Excellent information.

    I very slightly discount some of the historical information because it may involve people that are no longer even alive and it may relate to people that have different views today. Nonetheless, those wronged and their progeny, friends, associations were impacted and those impacts roll forward and become multigenerational. However, those wanting change can’t be rigid and dogmatic about forever maintaining a hostility towards future generations that are members of a group committed past atrocities but hopefully are evolving. While some sides need time to evolve and accept responsibility for past ‘sins’, I think victimized sides risk devolving to get revenge and sometimes even attain one-upmanship (eg between nation states).

    I see the examples of the more recent events as serious cause for concern and are highly relevant. EPS is specifically named so then their concerns reflect issues taking place in our own “community” either by individual EPS members acting out of their own misguided believes or as a reflection of more broadly held beliefs, if not flawed policy.


    From that same twitter link, this was interesting:

    Siobhan O'Leary
    @SiobhanFTB
    ·
    8m
    Several meetings have been scheduled as a consequence of the protest. Requests for such meetings were ignored until now. Don't forget that, the protest is literally the only thing that worked.

    Siobhan O Leary is seemingly a serial protester with axes to grind that just wants to be in the news. This is her nature of tolerance recently regarding the Jordan Peterson lecture scheduled at the Citadel which was cancelled and rescheduled elsewhere due to unsubstantiated complaints like hers. Heres what she had to say about the Peterson lecture;

    "What I think it will do is that, if somebody already has an inclination to hurt people in the Edmonton LGBTQ community, Jordan Peterson will make them feel like they're validated in that feeling," said Siobhan O'Leary, a local transgender activist and columnist who has written about Peterson.

    "It's not so much that he can directly hurt people, although he has said a lot of insulting things. It's more like he's going to embolden other people to do the hurting."

    Bashir Mohamed is similarly predisposed to seeing things only one way. I don't know that these are examples of people that are enlightened, open, or worthy of being quoted in the press all the time, or in shaping our society through their nonstop agendas.
    Last edited by Replacement; 10-06-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    They were trying to be inclusive by excluding others.
    Yup. And it's a natural (and necessary) result of group identity politics.

    People naturally start to act "tribal" when they categorize themselves and others as members of "groups", then categorize the groups in a hypotheitcal hierarchy of "victims" and "oppressors".

    This is why human rights need to be based on individuals, instead of groups of people. It's the only way that everyone gets true equality.

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    So lets take another look at Bashir Mohamed's one sided look at the Pisces bath house raid. This source provides a bit more information;

    https://citymuseumedmonton.ca/2015/0...athhouse-raid/

    "Fifty-six men were arrested as “found-ins” of a bawdyhouse, a location kept for the purpose of prostitution or acts of indecency." The reader should note that similar raids of other bawdy houses, with hetero inclination, were also ongoing and with similar raids and arrests under the named purview. Its important for those using the Pisces enforcement as a case of discrimination to substantiate that there was specific EPS targeting of homosexual vs heterosexual bawdy houses. Maybe there was, but citing one instance without acknowledging that many hetero sex clubs that were perceived fronts for prostitution were also shut down. Also note that hetero Johns, to this day can be charged, named, jailed, and are, for procuring sex.

    Next;

    "Within a week of the arrests, the owners, manager, and five of the men decided to plead guilty to their charges. The guilty pleas meant that they acknowledged that the Pisces had been a bawdyhouse, and that the acts that took place there were acts of indecency under the law."

    So in short the owners of the bawdy house admitted to it being a bawdy house and all pleaded guilty as charged. A not insignificant point. One could almost think the raid was justified as per law.

    Finally;

    "The raids had come about because of a complaint from a member of the gay community"

    The latter point being significant in regards to claims of police targeting vs public complaint being a reason for the onset of investigation. Again remember that Bashir will maintain implicitly that only biased targeting was involved and will assume that ONLY gay bawdy houses are targeted and due to implied police agenda. These are his constant one sided assertions and agenda. But while lacking proof that there was specific and biased targeting. Bashir simply wants the reader to believe that this was simply biased targeting citing articles that are as similarly one sided.

    As per every story multiple sides exist. Not all of the story is being told. Why is that?
    Last edited by Replacement; 10-06-2018 at 12:22 PM.
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    Expected responses from expected people.

    This subject deserves more time than I have right now, but in short, I feel like those against the protest don't understand pride.

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    Yeah, Top_Dawg enjoyed it.

    More colorful and flamboyant than ever before.

    As for the protest, Top_Dawg, can't help but notice an ongoing trend.

    Trannies and other gender challenged cabbage heads continuing to hijack the agenda from the man-man love enthusiasts.

    This has been going on for about four to five years now.

    Top_Dawg wouldn't be surprised if in the near future all the LBGTalphabet soups all splintered off into their own little special interest groups.

    By the way, after the parade Top_Dawg popped into Blues on Whyte.

    Interesting changes afoot.

    Domestic bottles are once again $4.75 tax in from opening til 8:00 P.M.

    After the renovation they really jacked up their prices.

    And Top_Dawg noticed that all their day time regular crack heads and meth heads had migrated to H2O.

    Guerss they are now trying to lure them back.

    Also the liquor store is gone.

    They have knocked out that wall between it and the games room and poodle told Top_Dawg that they are going to put in seating and a bank of big screen TVs to create a so called sports bar.

    VLTs are now all lined up against the west wall.

    Off sales is still available but limited only to top sellers.

    Top_Dawg likes the prices and what they have done with it.

    Will become a regular stop on his rounds.


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    I thought the protestors were against (among other things) the Police attending in plain cloths and not in uniform.

    I haven't been watching a Pride parade in a long time. Its a good event, despite the protestors spoiling the party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Expected responses from expected people.

    This subject deserves more time than I have right now, but in short, I feel like those against the protest don't understand pride.
    The pride parade ,was doing just fine without the protestors!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I thought the protestors were against (among other things) the Police attending in plain cloths and not in uniform.

    I haven't been watching a Pride parade in a long time. Its a good event, despite the protestors spoiling the party.
    They didnt want them to attend in uniform, now not at all.No matter some of those in EPS are gay themselves, plus they don't want the armed forces to be in the parade, whatever did they do wrong?

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    This subject deserves more time than I have right now, but in short, I feel like those against the protest don't understand pride.
    Given that pride parades began as a protest themselves (Stonewall), protesting them is a completely ridiculous thing to do.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I thought the protestors were against (among other things) the Police attending in plain cloths and not in uniform.

    I haven't been watching a Pride parade in a long time. Its a good event, despite the protestors spoiling the party.
    They didnt want them to attend in uniform, now not at all.No matter some of those in EPS are gay themselves, plus they don't want the armed forces to be in the parade, whatever did they do wrong?
    As long as some people perceive feeling unsafe they're doing wrong. Regardless of whether the something that happened is in Charlottesville, in 1981, or 100 yrs ago. Its hard not to question the language involved as well. Police, RCMP will only be allowed once people stop feeling unsafe. The difficulty with that subjective notion should be obvious. The reality is with vague wording like that those that have again co-opted agenda simply don't want police of any type around at all. I don't think its accidental that the thing required is unattainable.

    Finally how are feelings of being safe/unsafe addressed by exclusion, by banning police from connecting so as to limit interaction and shared experience?

    This is militant co-opted objective. Nothing else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    This subject deserves more time than I have right now, but in short, I feel like those against the protest don't understand pride.
    Given that pride parades began as a protest themselves (Stonewall), protesting them is a completely ridiculous thing to do.

    Protesting pushes issues in the face of people. Some biased, discriminatory things in life seem like they should just be automatically corrected, but there’s enough people out there actively trying to tell everyone else how they are supposed to live that there is actual resistance to ensuring people are treated as equals - with natural, adopted and imposed differences. Note the over three plus decade delay below:


    Lobbying the Alberta Government in the 1980s by Sheryl Ackerman | Edmonton Queer History Project

    “On June 5, 1989, in the Alberta Legislature, MLA Marie Laing introduced Bill 225, an Act to Amend the Individual’s Rights Protection Act. This Act would make discrimination based on sexual orientation or mental disability unlawful.
    ...

    “Here are two letters we received in response that summer, plus a copy of the proposed bill. The bill did not succeed, despite the fact that the Human Rights Commission in Alberta had recommended inclusion of sexual orientation as a protected category in 1977, 1981 and 1985. Lobbying continued, but the law did not change until 20 years later, in June 2009.”

    https://edmontonqueerhistoryproject....eryl-ackerman/
    Last edited by KC; 10-06-2018 at 07:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Expected responses from expected people.

    This subject deserves more time than I have right now, but in short, I feel like those against the protest don't understand pride.
    The pride parade ,was doing just fine without the protestors!!!
    What does "it was doing just fine" even mean? Like what is the point of pride to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    This subject deserves more time than I have right now, but in short, I feel like those against the protest don't understand pride.
    Given that pride parades began as a protest themselves (Stonewall), protesting them is a completely ridiculous thing to do.
    Given that pride parades began as a protest themselves (Stonewall), protesting them is a completely relevant thing to do.

    Especially modern 'pride' that is over half corporate rainbow washing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I thought the protestors were against (among other things) the Police attending in plain cloths and not in uniform.

    I haven't been watching a Pride parade in a long time. Its a good event, despite the protestors spoiling the party.
    They didnt want them to attend in uniform, now not at all.No matter some of those in EPS are gay themselves, plus they don't want the armed forces to be in the parade, whatever did they do wrong?
    Pretty sure they're asking them to to attend as official floats or in uniform. EPS/RCMP/Military members can attend and march as part of other pride groups.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I thought the protestors were against (among other things) the Police attending in plain cloths and not in uniform.

    I haven't been watching a Pride parade in a long time. Its a good event, despite the protestors spoiling the party.
    They didnt want them to attend in uniform, now not at all.No matter some of those in EPS are gay themselves, plus they don't want the armed forces to be in the parade, whatever did they do wrong?
    Pretty sure they're asking them to to attend as official floats or in uniform. EPS/RCMP/Military members can attend and march as part of other pride groups.
    Odd take. EPS and other forces have been requested to take part in the pride parade while not in uniform. This was, for some at least, seen as a concession so that the members could take part. But then that was decided not to be good enough due to some vaguely expressed notion of 32 people not feeling safe with police and that police will be prevented from attending as long as that "unsafe'' feeling persists with anybody.

    Just finished reading a litany of tweets both for and against the protest. Among the silliest comments were that just by agreeing to being police officers members became willful oppressors. Unfortunately that is categorization, marginalizing, and generalizing slander to police members on the very basis of them being police members. This nature of comment being often expressed.

    Throughout all news reports and discussion there is not one recent issue cited with EPS or RCMP being that resulted in this. Just the generalized "police forces everywhere oppress the marginalized" It seems that this was just always going to occur at some point and similarly to how it did in the Toronto Pride parade in 2016.

    I've yet to hear a lucid explanation of how the exclusion of Police not in uniform reconciles how it is just to forbid people that would identify as members of the pride community, and as police officers. Is that not oppression? Is that not exclusion?
    Last edited by Replacement; 10-06-2018 at 09:05 PM.
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    One very interesting thing, and which reveals how co-opted this pride parade was by the protestors, is that one of them, who admits to it, agreed to be a parade marshall for this parade knowing that police would be part of the parade but apparently became involved in pride to input different agenda which she did in the parade by immediately joining the protest, of which she had plotted. At best this is conflicting action by this individual who no doubt would justify it anyway.

    A consistent theme is that concession either by pride organizers or the police seemingly were never going to be enough. Protest, blocking the parade, and planned agenda were going to have their day regardless of concession. Tactical militancy is inherent in ploys where one already has concessions and wants all of them immediately. Some would even call it unreasonable.

    In anycase the machinations of the few in this have been quite clear and essentially read as a takeover of the pride movement here. Plenty of concern being expressed that Pride itself caved to every one of the demands.

    Important to note that yesterday will likely do nothing to improve or ease relations between Police and communities in question. If they were strained before what will be the result of such strident exclusionary tactics. Is Edmonton a more inclusive place today as a result of the agenda based tactics yesterday?
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    Those that think that policing is only an american issue

    The data, obtained by CBC News from the Edmonton Police Service through a freedom of information request, shows that in 2016, Aboriginal women were nearly 10 times as likely to be checked as white women.
    The same year, Aboriginal people were six times more likely than white people to be stopped by Edmonton police. Black people were almost five times as likely as white people to be stopped.
    From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ding-1.4178843

    also

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...teen-1.4546367

    and

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...pect-1.4620988

    and this was a 5 second google search.

    Also, there were 4 demands, and you're all focusing on one of them.
    Last edited by Channing; 10-06-2018 at 09:13 PM.

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    So your equating standard police profiling and checks that occur in almost any jurisdiction and automatically concluding that it is for the purpose of overt discrimination rather than policing?

    Does it ever occur to the people questioning police action and assuming they know better about how to do police work or foot patrol or investigative work that they might not know better than the people that carry it out?

    Probably not. One of the best police chiefs we have had in decades is gone due to this kind of caustic external focus and questioning.


    ps people here and elsewhere are focused more on the one demand not to allow police at pride because obviously its the one demand that is impossible to reconcile with the object of inclusion. Figures that you wouldn't attempt to cover that one. In anycase we were talking about pride. Not black lives matter missives. Bashir Mohamed lets everybody know of those every day.
    Last edited by Replacement; 10-06-2018 at 09:30 PM.
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    2016 in Toronto

    ‘Pride is bigger’: Organizer says Black Lives Matter demands are start of ‘conversation,’ not binding contract – National Post


    “It’s not about exclusion; it’s about creating a more inclusive space that does include police, but the question is, do they need to be in uniform and should they be representing bodies that perpetrate racism and police brutality within our march.”
    ...
    “It’s about returning Pride to its political roots,” Khan said.

    “Being someone who is queer and gender non-conforming and black, we recognized there was a disappearance of black infrastructure within Pride. That there was anti-black practices, and more than that, the disappearance of space of racialized people and the slashing of budgets.”



    http://nationalpost.com/news/there-w...rom-organizers
    Last edited by KC; 10-06-2018 at 11:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    They were trying to be inclusive by excluding others.
    Yup. And it's a natural (and necessary) result of group identity politics.

    People naturally start to act "tribal" when they categorize themselves and others as members of "groups", then categorize the groups in a hypotheitcal hierarchy of "victims" and "oppressors".

    This is why human rights need to be based on individuals, instead of groups of people. It's the only way that everyone gets true equality.
    I agree to a point.

    Not everyone’s or every group’s view is that human rights need to focus on the individual level. That is a very interesting aspect of our culture that should be debated.

    Are tribes to be discouraged? We draw borders and call a territory a nation state and then encourage everyone to act tribally as members of that group. We define “human rights” and equality differently that other nations.
    Last edited by KC; 10-06-2018 at 11:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I thought the protestors were against (among other things) the Police attending in plain cloths and not in uniform.

    I haven't been watching a Pride parade in a long time. Its a good event, despite the protestors spoiling the party.
    They didnt want them to attend in uniform, now not at all.No matter some of those in EPS are gay themselves, plus they don't want the armed forces to be in the parade, whatever did they do wrong?
    Ahh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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    this was written by a friend of mine and it's hard not to share his sentiments as well as his post:

    "I realize I don't get a say, but as a strong ally going back to well before the Pisces raid days I'm very disappointed in Edmonton Pride for banning police and military from future parades. I hope they reconsider. Not a good look.

    Frankly, I think it's stupid. I'm aware that's a strong word. I'm ****** off. From my perspective it appears the Pride organization has allowed itself to be hijacked by a few who would rather have something to protest than make things better.

    I can't defend it. I won't.

    Like putting out a fire with gasoline. I think some would rather see things burn because it validates their position, and their existence. They are welcome to their position, of course, but they're forcing everyone to go along with them.

    Pride should know better than anyone that gay people come in a wide range of shapes, sizes, colours, ages, ethnicities, professions, etc., have a range of viewpoints - just like any other large group of people, and all are welcome. But not by Pride. I don't get it.

    It's unfair to the greater community, who may or may not agree, but are forced to go along with it. The opposite of inclusiveness. The many, now defined by a few.

    Can you imagine the gay cop, fighting to make things better having to go in to work and deal with those less than supportive colleagues? They just got the rug pulled out from under them.


    Making things worse. Fomenting discontent. Alienating and undermining not just the police and military who are on their side, but many of their reasonable and supportive allies. Creating the very problem they are supposed to be fighting.


    The relationship has often been strained, to be kind. It's still not great. Indeed, Pride was founded not just as a celebration, but in large part to fight back and protest the way LGBTQ people have historically been treated and received by those institutions. By "historically", I don't mean a long way back either.


    You don't build bridges and promote inclusiveness by burning bridges and excluding people, obviously. Pride has just undermined the very people within those institutions that were on their side.


    I'm on your side. I have been for decades. I feel like the rug was pulled out from under ME."

    he's not alone in those sentiments - surely it's possible to support PRIDE and our police force and our military concurrently. in their own way many of them wear uniforms whether by choice or by profession or both and they all deserve equal and reciprocal respect in or out of uniform.

    Last edited by kcantor; 11-06-2018 at 04:01 PM.
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    I'm surprised no one said anything about the state of the road

  33. #33

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    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    Read up on the Paradox of Tolerance.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

    I don’t necessarily agree with the actions of the protesters. However, the truly marginalized have always had difficulty getting a seat at the table. And while the EPS has done a fantastic job of reaching out and working with the community, significant work needs to be done to help those who have been left out of the conversation.

    It’s easy for us, as upwardly mobile middle class white suburbanites, to go to the parade and enjoy all that’s been achieved and participate in what’s really become more of a big street party than anything. We don’t go because we don’t agree with the mass commercialization of the event and the “rainbow washing” that a lot of corporations, unwittingly or not, use the parade for. I’ll remember a poingant note that a friend once wrote:

    Some go for the party, Some go for the protest, but most don’t go at all

    That’s kind-of where we’re at
    Last edited by 240GLT; 11-06-2018 at 04:09 PM.
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  36. #36

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    History of change:

    Five facts about Edmonton Pride | Edmonton Journal

    “In 2013, CFB Edmonton became the first Canadian military base to fly the rainbow pride flag.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...-todays-parade

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    Read up on the Paradox of Intolerance.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

    I don’t necessarily agree with the actions of the protesters. However, the truly marginalized have always had difficulty getting a seat at the table. And while the EPS has done a fantastic job of reaching out and working with the community, significant work needs to be done to help those who have been left out of the conversation.

    It’s easy for us, as upwardly mobile middle class white suburbanites, to go to the parade and enjoy all that’s been achieved and participate in what’s really become more of a big street party than anything. We don’t go because we don’t agree with the mass commercialization of the event and the “rainbow washing” that a lot of corporations, unwittingly or not, use the parade for. I’ll remember a poingant note that a friend once wrote:

    Some go for the party, Some go for the protest, but most don’t go at all

    That’s kind-of where we’re at
    you're friend was/is probably pretty accurate in his assessment of the attendance.

    but even if the attendance doesn't include the "most who don't go" and does include some who are there "rainbow washing", it's still impossible for them not to become closer to seeing each other as people who are much the same despite our various differences. and maybe not even "the first time" but maybe by the second, or the third, or the seventh... and isn't that the whole point?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  38. #38

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    ^^^The difficulty inherent in the misuse of the Paradox of Intolerance is its emboldened SJW to lob labels and defame not only those that would reasonably be considered as intolerant. Karl Popper, from my understanding of his work felt that you should be intolerant only if the individual(s) have proved to be incapable of rational discourse, learning, change. This part often gets missed by SJW's and they jump right to being intolerant of anybody who is old, white, privileged, or who disagrees with their opinion or spectrum.

    Go anywhere online and the tactics are so repeated and formulaic. The real difficulty I suspect is that people yielding such philosophy as espoused by Popper are not using anymore of it than would be obtained from a quote. So that they use the tool without completely understanding it, and I doubt that usage is in the spirit in which it was originally meant.

    So that ironically the Paradox of Intolerance, or at least how its commonly utilized is as justification to be purely intolerant. A nice defence mechanism game to remove any responsibility to otherwise have reasonable discourse.

    These days whenever somebody starts quoting the Paradox of Intolerance I'm learning to expect the worst and there to be no discussion..

    Next, I'm starting to dispute the notion of figures like BLM advocates that claim to be marginalized but who have political inroads to just make demands and have them filled pronto. If anything this is an EMPOWERED faction not a marginalized one. It is my theory that the recent oust of Knecht, the police chief, was at least in part motivated by some of these processes and BLM's formulaic tactics to foment control everywhere they are found. What other police chief here has had to deal with all the grief from SJW's and BLM than Knecht has. I could go to much greater length on the latter. But marginalized? Wouldn't surprise me if the press and some councillors have Bashir on speed dial. He's become the first source that gets print related to virtually any police matter. I wonder how that feels for those trying to run a police force and not get tarred everytime BLM makes a statement.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-06-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^^^The difficulty inherent in the misuse of the Paradox of Intolerance is its emboldened SJW to lob labels and defame not only those that would reasonably be considered as intolerant. Karl Popper, from my understanding of his work felt that you should be intolerant only if the individual(s) have proved to be incapable of rational discourse, learning, change. This part often gets missed by SJW's and they jump right to being intolerant of anybody who is old, white, privileged, or who disagrees with their opinion or spectrum.

    Go anywhere online and the tactics are so repeated and formulaic. The real difficulty I suspect is that people yielding such philosophy as espoused by Popper are not using anymore of it than would be obtained from a quote. So that they use the tool without completely understanding it, and I doubt that usage is in the spirit in which it was originally meant.

    So that ironically the Paradox of Intolerance, or at least how its commonly utilized is as justification to be purely intolerant. A nice defence mechanism game to remove any responsibility to otherwise have reasonable discourse.

    These days whenever somebody starts quoting the Paradox of Intolerance I'm learning to expect the worst and there to be no discussion..
    And this is why I hesitated to post on this thread. I don't think that you or many here really understand the nuances of what's going on here, which is fine, I wouldn't expect you, or most on this forum for that matter to appreciate the point of view, or history, that many choose to ignore or are oblivious to. You lost any credibility with me as soon as you trotted out the very tired old "SJW" line. I'll bow out, I've said my peace.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 11-06-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    I'm so sad about it, all these tiny special interest groups, spoil things. They were protesting a parade, I'd have chucked them to one side and said enjoy or leave..now there is infighting, and I hate that..

  41. #41

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    Were raids like the one against the Pices a common occurrence prior to 1981?

    The parade apparently started the year before in 1980, so what was the original intent of that first parade in Edmonton. Interesting timing that the raid took place after the first parade.

    References say the parade started as a protest movement. Did it?

    So, did the illusion end or did intolerance begin?

    “There was little harassment from police and relations between the city and gays seemed excellent. ...”

    This illusion ended...” (see below)


    Raiding through the backdoor: Pisces remembered | Xtra
    Looking back at the 1981 Edmonton bathhouse raid

    By Michael Phair, forward by Ted KerrNov 17, 2008, 7:00 PM EST


    “Across Canada in the ’60s and ’70s the number of bathhouses in big cities grew dramatically as an outgrowth of the gay rights movement. Most were private members clubs and run as businesses catering to gay or bisexual men. By the late 1970s, numerous “authorities,” especially the police, took notice and raids began in Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal under the guise of the Criminal Code’s section on “bawdy houses,” which was used to describe and regulate prostitution. The law had been intended to charge owners of establishments who provided women for sexual purposes for a fee. It described anyone caught in a bawdy house as a “found-in” and, thus, guilty of a criminal offence.

    By 1980, Edmonton’s gay and lesbian community was quiet, conservative and below the radar. There was nothing about gays in the media and little public commentary from the gay community. There was little harassment from police and relations between the city and gays seemed excellent. ...”

    This illusion ended on May 29 – 30. Fifty-four police officers...”

    “A local TV station ran the names of the found-ins. Representatives of the gay and lesbian community, found-ins and friends formed the Privacy Defense Committee to raise funds and support found-ins. Two weeks later ...”

    https://www.dailyxtra.com/raiding-th...membered-37473
    The 1970s. Pretty broad acceptance, at some levels.


    Flashback and the Gay Drag Races | Edmonton City As Museum Project ECAMP

    In the mid-seventies the Flashback Nite Club—the second gay-owned bar in Edmonton—was founded. By the early 80s, Flashback had become the ‘in place’ in Edmonton—in fact, the North American Billboard Magazine named Flashback as one of the ten best Clubs in North America. (Funny, this honour was never recognized or celebrated by the Mayor and City Council!) Flashback had the hottest men, music, DJ’s, and drag shows in the city. Although a ’gay’ club, thousands of young people of all genders and all sexual persuasions lined up in droves to get through the security at the door, unless you knew the doorman—and I did ...”

    https://citymuseumedmonton.ca/2014/0...ay-drag-races/
    Last edited by KC; 11-06-2018 at 04:39 PM.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    this was written by a friend of mine and it's hard not to share his sentiments as well as his post:

    "I realize I don't get a say, but as a strong ally going back to well before the Pisces raid days I'm very disappointed in Edmonton Pride for banning police and military from future parades. I hope they reconsider. Not a good look.

    Frankly, I think it's stupid. I'm aware that's a strong word. I'm ****** off. From my perspective it appears the Pride organization has allowed itself to be hijacked by a few who would rather have something to protest than make things better.

    I can't defend it. I won't.

    Like putting out a fire with gasoline. I think some would rather see things burn because it validates their position, and their existence. They are welcome to their position, of course, but they're forcing everyone to go along with them.

    Pride should know better than anyone that gay people come in a wide range of shapes, sizes, colours, ages, ethnicities, professions, etc., have a range of viewpoints - just like any other large group of people, and all are welcome. But not by Pride. I don't get it.

    It's unfair to the greater community, who may or may not agree, but are forced to go along with it. The opposite of inclusiveness. The many, now defined by a few.

    Can you imagine the gay cop, fighting to make things better having to go in to work and deal with those less than supportive colleagues? They just got the rug pulled out from under them.


    Making things worse. Fomenting discontent. Alienating and undermining not just the police and military who are on their side, but many of their reasonable and supportive allies. Creating the very problem they are supposed to be fighting.


    The relationship has often been strained, to be kind. It's still not great. Indeed, Pride was founded not just as a celebration, but in large part to fight back and protest the way LGBTQ people have historically been treated and received by those institutions. By "historically", I don't mean a long way back either.


    You don't build bridges and promote inclusiveness by burning bridges and excluding people, obviously. Pride has just undermined the very people within those institutions that were on their side.


    I'm on your side. I have been for decades. I feel like the rug was pulled out from under ME."

    he's not alone in those sentiments - surely it's possible to support PRIDE and our police force and our military concurrently. in their own way many of them wear uniforms whether by choice or by profession or both and they all deserve equal and reciprocal respect in or out of uniform.

    Nice post Ken.

    What I'm concerned about is the dishonesty (blatant) about the protest. With as I stated one or more parade marshalls co-opting that position and basically effecting a takeover by wearing two hats. By being parade marshalls to the pride parade but also surreptitiously being aligned and in fact by the account of one the spokesperson for the protesters. I'll leave the individual to reconcile whether she felt that subterfuge was fair. At best it could be perceived as a conflict of interests. The read I'm getting is that when BLM becomes involved any tactic is considered fair. To that end the lies that this protest was farily spontaneous, discussed online, and not affiliated with any org is nonsense. This was BLM tactics all along and as they've done in countless cities in Canada, US, abroad. This was going to occur here as soon as BLM got to it here. Indeed read up on pride parades that have had this exact same tactic of stopping the parade and with BLM always involved and its quite clear who orchestrated or was front central in this.

    The further difficulty is that BLM has often been associated with tactics, stances, positions that are reprehensible at best. Everything from supporting Fidel Castro to a BLM cofounder, Khogali, in Toronto making some of the most heinous online statements I've read. People can read up on it. Decide for yourself.

    In short what occurred on the weekend is that Pride here was co-opted by a not too merry band of protesters with organized ring leaders that have done this in virtually every city and that have tactically got their way virtually everytime. This is what Pride has to deal with now when it tries to explain to pride stakeholders why all the concessions were so readily granted. As many are mentioning pride is not the same today. We're not quite sure where its headed.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^^^The difficulty inherent in the misuse of the Paradox of Intolerance is its emboldened SJW to lob labels and defame not only those that would reasonably be considered as intolerant. Karl Popper, from my understanding of his work felt that you should be intolerant only if the individual(s) have proved to be incapable of rational discourse, learning, change. This part often gets missed by SJW's and they jump right to being intolerant of anybody who is old, white, privileged, or who disagrees with their opinion or spectrum.

    Go anywhere online and the tactics are so repeated and formulaic. The real difficulty I suspect is that people yielding such philosophy as espoused by Popper are not using anymore of it than would be obtained from a quote. So that they use the tool without completely understanding it, and I doubt that usage is in the spirit in which it was originally meant.

    So that ironically the Paradox of Intolerance, or at least how its commonly utilized is as justification to be purely intolerant. A nice defence mechanism game to remove any responsibility to otherwise have reasonable discourse.

    These days whenever somebody starts quoting the Paradox of Intolerance I'm learning to expect the worst and there to be no discussion..
    And this is why I hesitated to post on this thread. I don't think that you or many here really understand the nuances of what's going on here, which is fine, I wouldn't expect you, or most on this forum for that matter to appreciate the point of view, or history, that many choose to ignore or are oblivious to. You lost any credibility with me as soon as you trotted out the very tired old "SJW" line. I'll bow out, I've said my peace.
    Fine, I could do better than the SJW line. My bad. Sometimes words are used for a lack of clear or better terms. I'm open to hearing other terms. Still, your response was more tempered than a lot of the discourse going on online, and I do thank you for the tact. Still though, what you have done is decided not to discuss. This too, unfortunately, is a very evident BLM tactic. They will often refuse to go to meetings or agree, and then when arriving say they will only meet under the following conditions and have done that here and everywhere. Its a plotted control tactic. In next breath BLM complaining they were not at the table. I could write an essay on just the BLM involvements and distortions in Edmonton.

    In anycase online discussion is sometimes unfortunate. It replaces real person discourse but without the give and take that would more naturally occur in person. if seated together people would likely have better discussion.

    Nicety aside I understand subtlety and nuance fine. That's uncalled for. It is possible to have different views and for them to be considered. Indeed that is the basis for discussion, which is increasingly dying.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    this was written by a friend of mine and it's hard not to share his sentiments as well as his post:

    "I realize I don't get a say, but as a strong ally going back to well before the Pisces raid days I'm very disappointed in Edmonton Pride for banning police and military from future parades. I hope they reconsider. Not a good look.

    Frankly, I think it's stupid. I'm aware that's a strong word. I'm ****** off. From my perspective it appears the Pride organization has allowed itself to be hijacked by a few who would rather have something to protest than make things better.

    I can't defend it. I won't.

    Like putting out a fire with gasoline. I think some would rather see things burn because it validates their position, and their existence. They are welcome to their position, of course, but they're forcing everyone to go along with them.

    Pride should know better than anyone that gay people come in a wide range of shapes, sizes, colours, ages, ethnicities, professions, etc., have a range of viewpoints - just like any other large group of people, and all are welcome. But not by Pride. I don't get it.

    It's unfair to the greater community, who may or may not agree, but are forced to go along with it. The opposite of inclusiveness. The many, now defined by a few.

    Can you imagine the gay cop, fighting to make things better having to go in to work and deal with those less than supportive colleagues? They just got the rug pulled out from under them.


    Making things worse. Fomenting discontent. Alienating and undermining not just the police and military who are on their side, but many of their reasonable and supportive allies. Creating the very problem they are supposed to be fighting.


    The relationship has often been strained, to be kind. It's still not great. Indeed, Pride was founded not just as a celebration, but in large part to fight back and protest the way LGBTQ people have historically been treated and received by those institutions. By "historically", I don't mean a long way back either.


    You don't build bridges and promote inclusiveness by burning bridges and excluding people, obviously. Pride has just undermined the very people within those institutions that were on their side.


    I'm on your side. I have been for decades. I feel like the rug was pulled out from under ME."

    he's not alone in those sentiments - surely it's possible to support PRIDE and our police force and our military concurrently. in their own way many of them wear uniforms whether by choice or by profession or both and they all deserve equal and reciprocal respect in or out of uniform.

    Members of EPS, the RCMP and the military can still participate in Pride. Just not as representatives of those organisations. They've lost only the right to march with their employers.

    Those that were protesting, feel like they can't participate marching beside those representing their oppressors. They can't participate at all.

    Which case is worse? Your friend writes ".. all are welcome. But not by Pride" but thinks that's now, now that the EPS/RCMP aren't invited. But that was before too. When certain groups were not welcomed based on having those that persecute them marching.

    I think the most vulnerable members of the LGBTQ+ group should have priority in a space and place like the Pride march.

  45. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Were raids like the one against the Pices a common occurrence prior to 1981?

    The parade apparently started the year before in 1980, so what was the original intent of that first parade in Edmonton. Interesting timing that the raid took place after the first parade.

    References say the parade started as a protest movement. Did it?

    So, did the illusion end or did intolerance begin?

    “There was little harassment from police and relations between the city and gays seemed excellent. ...”

    This illusion ended...” (see below)


    Raiding through the backdoor: Pisces remembered | Xtra
    Looking back at the 1981 Edmonton bathhouse raid

    By Michael Phair, forward by Ted KerrNov 17, 2008, 7:00 PM EST


    “Across Canada in the ’60s and ’70s the number of bathhouses in big cities grew dramatically as an outgrowth of the gay rights movement. Most were private members clubs and run as businesses catering to gay or bisexual men. By the late 1970s, numerous “authorities,” especially the police, took notice and raids began in Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal under the guise of the Criminal Code’s section on “bawdy houses,” which was used to describe and regulate prostitution. The law had been intended to charge owners of establishments who provided women for sexual purposes for a fee. It described anyone caught in a bawdy house as a “found-in” and, thus, guilty of a criminal offence.

    By 1980, Edmonton’s gay and lesbian community was quiet, conservative and below the radar. There was nothing about gays in the media and little public commentary from the gay community. There was little harassment from police and relations between the city and gays seemed excellent. ...”

    This illusion ended on May 29 – 30. Fifty-four police officers...”

    “A local TV station ran the names of the found-ins. Representatives of the gay and lesbian community, found-ins and friends formed the Privacy Defense Committee to raise funds and support found-ins. Two weeks later ...”

    https://www.dailyxtra.com/raiding-th...membered-37473
    The 1970s. Pretty broad acceptance, at some levels.


    Flashback and the Gay Drag Races | Edmonton City As Museum Project ECAMP

    In the mid-seventies the Flashback Nite Club—the second gay-owned bar in Edmonton—was founded. By the early 80s, Flashback had become the ‘in place’ in Edmonton—in fact, the North American Billboard Magazine named Flashback as one of the ten best Clubs in North America. (Funny, this honour was never recognized or celebrated by the Mayor and City Council!) Flashback had the hottest men, music, DJ’s, and drag shows in the city. Although a ’gay’ club, thousands of young people of all genders and all sexual persuasions lined up in droves to get through the security at the door, unless you knew the doorman—and I did ...”

    https://citymuseumedmonton.ca/2014/0...ay-drag-races/
    KC, as I mentioned earlier many clubs, hetero sex front clubs as well were regularly getting raided at the same time and Pisces was far from the only one. BLM would have readers believe this was an isolated and targeted raid. Those that have lived here throughout, and have first person recollection no this not to be the case. BLM want you to believe that Pisces raid was specifically targeting.

    As far as Flashback the acceptance of it and other like clubs was widespread. I can only speak my circle obviously but people including myself loved going to the places and they were often the funnest places to be. That said they were underground, were sexual context in nature and the Mayor would be no more likely to be speaking of those than he would of Chez Pierre or Tracey Starrs. Needs to be remembered that Edmonton used to be pretty puritanical (for lack of better word) and that some things were still in the realm of unsaid in council, or in the press, etc. These were not things that generally got press or comment at the time in official circles.

    As far as the onset timing of the raids that did occur more across Canada in 81 it could be argued (and had been suggested) that it was also a response to ramping concerns about the recent aids epic and reports that in different cities that the disease could be spreading through contacts in such places as bath houses. One has to remember there was very heightened panic at the time and so that the raids intervention was even being argued as a public health response to curb the spread of disease. just saying.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.

  47. #47

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    Yeah. I remember the strong interest among friends to go to Flashbacks. I never did. I only vaguely recall anything about any raids. However I do remember all the fear everywhere over AIDs.


    Found this - “a must read”:


    The night they raided the Pisces club

    Excerpts:

    “Many of the 56 men police arrested in Pisces eventually pleaded guilty, despite the fact that there was no evidence to suggest prostitutes were working in the spa, nor that minors were enticed to enter. It was a simply a place to rent rooms where consenting adults had sex. The current head of the vice section says it would be difficult today to find a reason to lay charges.

    "I think we're more sensitive to various cultures, not just the gay community, but all cultures. It's just the way we've progressed as a police service," Staff Sgt. John Fiorilli says. "In the '80s, we were quite narrow-minded."

    The raid was seen by many in the city's gay and lesbian community as a targeted attack and harassment.
    ...”

    "Once we got in there, one of the men we had come to know quite well was there. We were torn because we had developed a friendship with the gentleman over the course of our investigation. To know within two or three hours tactical officers were going to be coming through and arresting everyone was personally upsetting for us."

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch...569/story.html
    Last edited by KC; 11-06-2018 at 05:16 PM.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    this was written by a friend of mine and it's hard not to share his sentiments as well as his post:

    "I realize I don't get a say, but as a strong ally going back to well before the Pisces raid days I'm very disappointed in Edmonton Pride for banning police and military from future parades. I hope they reconsider. Not a good look.

    Frankly, I think it's stupid. I'm aware that's a strong word. I'm ****** off. From my perspective it appears the Pride organization has allowed itself to be hijacked by a few who would rather have something to protest than make things better.

    I can't defend it. I won't.

    Like putting out a fire with gasoline. I think some would rather see things burn because it validates their position, and their existence. They are welcome to their position, of course, but they're forcing everyone to go along with them.

    Pride should know better than anyone that gay people come in a wide range of shapes, sizes, colours, ages, ethnicities, professions, etc., have a range of viewpoints - just like any other large group of people, and all are welcome. But not by Pride. I don't get it.

    It's unfair to the greater community, who may or may not agree, but are forced to go along with it. The opposite of inclusiveness. The many, now defined by a few.

    Can you imagine the gay cop, fighting to make things better having to go in to work and deal with those less than supportive colleagues? They just got the rug pulled out from under them.


    Making things worse. Fomenting discontent. Alienating and undermining not just the police and military who are on their side, but many of their reasonable and supportive allies. Creating the very problem they are supposed to be fighting.


    The relationship has often been strained, to be kind. It's still not great. Indeed, Pride was founded not just as a celebration, but in large part to fight back and protest the way LGBTQ people have historically been treated and received by those institutions. By "historically", I don't mean a long way back either.


    You don't build bridges and promote inclusiveness by burning bridges and excluding people, obviously. Pride has just undermined the very people within those institutions that were on their side.


    I'm on your side. I have been for decades. I feel like the rug was pulled out from under ME."

    he's not alone in those sentiments - surely it's possible to support PRIDE and our police force and our military concurrently. in their own way many of them wear uniforms whether by choice or by profession or both and they all deserve equal and reciprocal respect in or out of uniform.

    Members of EPS, the RCMP and the military can still participate in Pride. Just not as representatives of those organisations. They've lost only the right to march with their employers.

    Those that were protesting, feel like they can't participate marching beside those representing their oppressors. They can't participate at all.

    Which case is worse? Your friend writes ".. all are welcome. But not by Pride" but thinks that's now, now that the EPS/RCMP aren't invited. But that was before too. When certain groups were not welcomed based on having those that persecute them marching.

    I think the most vulnerable members of the LGBTQ+ group should have priority in a space and place like the Pride march.
    hmmm. Readers can read through statements about police from any BLM faction in NA and the general theme is "No police, no pride" With many stating that any constable IS an oppressor by the mere act of becoming police. With the further accusation that they join police so that they can oppress. This is often enough the tactical stance of BLM who will never be satisfied with the presence of police unless its completely on their terms.

    The interesting vernacular is that one of the 32 protestors mentioned. "Everybody" here doesn't want the police present. I wasn't aware a quick poll of the thousands in attendance that didn't get their views expressed were all considered. Indeed this is the difficulty, and the co-option, is that BLM and those affiliated wants to make the rules for everybody. On Saturday 32 individuals got their say. Hundreds or Thousands that were chanting "we want pride" just got to stand there wondering what was going on to their parade.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  49. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.
    Complete coincidence that the exact same thing occurred here, identical tactics, to the Pride Parade stops that have happened in the last 2 years in countless cities. You can believe that BLM wasn't involved. At best their tactics were used and their protest was modeled. I wasn't at this years parade so did not first hand witness but I highly doubt that BLM wasn't involved in orchestrating, planning, consulting, at some point. These were also BLM type demands. Especially the one to prevent police from attending.

    Again the reader can research the many cities where the exact same blocking of a pride parade occurred and wherein BLM were front center in making similar demands.


    I stress this because local orgs don't stand a chance against the well organized and well mobilized BLM organization that operates in countless jurisdictions and tactically wins power wherever they go. I don't mind that power being wielded for beneficial purpose, but its not always the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    hmmm. Readers can read through statements about police from any BLM faction in NA and the general theme is "No police, no pride" With many stating that any constable IS an oppressor by the mere act of becoming police. With the further accusation that they join police so that they can oppress. This is often enough the tactical stance of BLM who will never be satisfied with the presence of police unless its completely on their terms.

    The interesting vernacular is that one of the 32 protestors mentioned. "Everybody" here doesn't want the police present. I wasn't aware a quick poll of the thousands in attendance that didn't get their views expressed were all considered. Indeed this is the difficulty, and the co-option, is that BLM and those affiliated wants to make the rules for everybody. On Saturday 32 individuals got their say. Hundreds or Thousands that were chanting "we want pride" just got to stand there wondering what was going on to their parade.
    Okay but what about responding to anything I wrote on the post you quoted? Instead of just picking out the extreme words like "everybody" that were certainly not meant to represent literally everybody, in a transcript you apparently have that I don't, nor does it seem relevant to the actual discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.
    Who was??

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.
    Who was??
    Maybe put some effort in and find out?

  53. #53

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    Below - not the parade of 1980 but a LOT more on the raid of 1981:

    Search the page or scroll down for fascinating if not shocking reporting and opinion of the day, plus more, as in the United Church excerpt below, for some context of the those times:



    Full text of "The Body politic, July/August 1981"


    “Meen also hopes it will lead to a
    stronger gay community in Edmonton.
    It may — recent community meetings
    have been well attended, but there is
    also little doubt that the sudden guilty
    pleas had a definite cooling effect on
    the will to keep fighting.

    Why did it happen? Did it all really
    start because one tormented gay man
    decided to lay a complaint about the spa
    to prove that "just because I'm gay
    doesn't mean I don't have any moral
    standards"? Probably not. There has
    been speculation in media circles in Ed-
    monton that the man who led the raid,
    Staff Sgt John Torgerson, is ambitious,
    wants to be police chief, and that this
    high-profile raid in a strategic career
    move. And it may just be that it is part



    United Church in Alberta votes
    to study ordination of gays



    CALGARY — Five hundred delegates
    at the Alberta Conference of the United
    Church of Canada passed three positive
    resolutions relating to gay rights and the
    ordination of gays at the provincial
    annual conference at the end of May.

    The first resolution encourages con-
    gregations to study In God's Image...
    Male and Female, the controversial and
    progressive document on human sexual-
    ity prepared last year by the church's
    Task Force on Human Sexuality. The
    second calls on the Alberta government
    to include sexual orientation in the
    provincial human rights code. The final
    resolution requests that the division of
    the church responsible for the training
    and overseeing of new ministers study
    the issue of homosexuals in the United
    Church clergy and present guidelines in
    this regard to the next annual confer-
    ence.

    The issue of gay clergy caused ...”

    https://archive.org/stream/bodypolit...5toro_djvu.txt
    Last edited by KC; 11-06-2018 at 05:48 PM.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    hmmm. Readers can read through statements about police from any BLM faction in NA and the general theme is "No police, no pride" With many stating that any constable IS an oppressor by the mere act of becoming police. With the further accusation that they join police so that they can oppress. This is often enough the tactical stance of BLM who will never be satisfied with the presence of police unless its completely on their terms.

    The interesting vernacular is that one of the 32 protestors mentioned. "Everybody" here doesn't want the police present. I wasn't aware a quick poll of the thousands in attendance that didn't get their views expressed were all considered. Indeed this is the difficulty, and the co-option, is that BLM and those affiliated wants to make the rules for everybody. On Saturday 32 individuals got their say. Hundreds or Thousands that were chanting "we want pride" just got to stand there wondering what was going on to their parade.
    Okay but what about responding to anything I wrote on the post you quoted? Instead of just picking out the extreme words like "everybody" that were certainly not meant to represent literally everybody, in a transcript you apparently have that I don't, nor does it seem relevant to the actual discussion.
    I have responded that the BLM notion of police being oppressors is that they are police officers. This is clearly a circular tautology and one that BLM espouse everywhere albeit which has a lot more bearing in the US, where the movement started. Transplanted to places like Edmonton the mode of BLM focuses on searching for signs of bigotry, prejudice, or when that becomes a bit too difficult to maintain constant froth to look back in history 100yrs and find some KKK refernces or a Pisces club raid in 81. About the most pre-eminent thing BLM has found here to complain about is police carding. The thing to note though is that BLM will tactically discover reasons to protest in any jurisdiction in which they operate. Remembering to schedule regular protests regardless of events or non events and keeping the fervor going.

    Now obviously not everybody will agree but in US they are much more familiar with BLM foment and more known about it. It becomes an industry onto itself. An interesting counterpoint read that spells out BLM in detail;

    https://www.amazon.com/Black-Lies-Ma...ustomerReviews
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-06-2018 at 05:46 PM.
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    Ah, so you're just saying that the protesters experiences, and the experiences of those they represent in Edmonton, isn't real. Got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.
    Who was??
    Maybe put some effort in and find out?
    I have, and I was told it was BLM! Maybe check your facts and yourself!

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Ah, so you're just saying that the protesters experiences, and the experiences of those they represent in Edmonton, isn't real. Got it.
    Not at all what I'm stating. I'm stating, and so are many pundits and the author of the best seller book I cited that a lot of manufacturing of issues goes on when it comes to BLM specifically. It is one of their tactics to create controversy. They even have adversarial relationships with anything from pride, Metoo, womens feminism (which they deride as white woman feminism) etc.

    Give BLM long enough and they will find a lot of adversaries wherever they are. Its what they do, they are very divisive. This is not well recognized in Edmonton yet but people are starting to figure it out and become more informed on the militant organization.


    I have no issue with individuals expressing concern, feeling they are not heard within pride, feeling they need more say, representation, all of that. I'm sympathetic to that. What I have limited tolerance for (excuse bad pun) is an operative like BLM sweeping in and claiming turf and inciting hate for police and authority. Some individuals may well feel like they have arrived at their concerns independently but they would have had familiarity with the BLM orchestration and movement and operatives . which were clearly mirrored here. Every Social Justice movement and govt is being currently very influenced by BLM. To claim that its not the case is arguably myopic.

    Thank you btw for actually having somewhat of a discussion. There needs to be much more dialog for us all I think.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-06-2018 at 06:01 PM.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.
    Who was??
    Maybe put some effort in and find out?
    I have, and I was told it was BLM! Maybe check your facts and yourself!
    Who are your sources?

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4265973/a...-pride-parade/

    The group — which did not affiliate itself with any one organization — described itself as “a number of queer and trans people of colour and their allies.”

    Alexix Hillyard, spokesperson for the group, told Global News that the issues with military and police had been brought up to the Edmonton Pride Society, and that those requests were ignored not once but twice.
    Then maybe google Alexis Hillyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Ah, so you're just saying that the protesters experiences, and the experiences of those they represent in Edmonton, isn't real. Got it.
    Not at all what I'm stating. I'm stating, and so are many pundits and the author of the best seller book I cited that a lot of manufacturing of issues goes on when it comes to BLM specifically. It is one of their tactics to create controversy. They even have adversarial relationships with anything from pride, Metoo, womens feminism (which they deride as white woman feminism) etc.

    Give BLM long enough and they will find a lot of adversaries wherever they are. Its what they do, they are very divisive. This is not well recognized in Edmonton yet but people are starting to figure it out and become more informed on the militant organization.


    I have no issue with individuals expressing concern, feeling they are not heard within pride, feeling they need more say, representation, all of that. I'm sympathetic to that. What I have limited tolerance for (excuse bad pun) is an operative like BLM sweeping in and claiming turf. Some individuals may well feel like they have arrived at their concerns independently but they would have had familiarity with the BLM orchestration and movement. Every Social Justice movement and govt is being currently very influenced by BLM. To claim that its not the case is arguably myopic.
    But what about this specific case where the protesters don't represent just BLM. You're making this a BLM issue. I'm not sure why, other than that's something that's easier to disagree with?

    To say that every social just movement and govt is being currently very influenced by BLM is arguably myopic. And certainly changing the conversation to being about BLM instead of the actual issue.

  60. #60

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    Fair comment Channing, and thanks. I will evaluate further. More time will make this more clear. Pride is also having subsequent meetings so more information will come out on what actually occurred. In several places it was later if not immediately known that it was BLM making the same demands. That said of course I have no proof that this occurred here through BLM. But its eerily reminiscent.

    If you will, read up on Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver Washington DC etc (several others) tactical parade stops and you would swear you're reading the same news. just saying.

    But reasonable rebuttal in anycase. Truth is its not certain yet.

    Know though that I have gone through the trouble of reading up on several of the protestors and their positions/affiliations. So much information online. This stuff does interest me.

    Now finally, let me say that everybody involved in the protest probably has good intents. I don't doubt that. But which we know doesn't always end well and good intent alone isn't enough.

    Pride is very changed now. Remains to be seen if its for the better.

    cheers
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-06-2018 at 06:18 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    It did seem auto-ironic that a group that wanted to parade its "inclusivity" would be so exclusive about who was allowed to parade wth them.
    It was only a matter of time before these BLM / snowflake people would politicalize the parade this is why we cant have anything nice anymore.
    Politicizing a political parade?

    Also, BLM wasn't the organiser of the protest.
    Who was??
    Maybe put some effort in and find out?
    I have, and I was told it was BLM! Maybe check your facts and yourself!
    Who are your sources?

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4265973/a...-pride-parade/

    The group — which did not affiliate itself with any one organization — described itself as “a number of queer and trans people of colour and their allies.”

    Alexix Hillyard, spokesperson for the group, told Global News that the issues with military and police had been brought up to the Edmonton Pride Society, and that those requests were ignored not once but twice.
    Then maybe google Alexis Hillyard.
    I didn't want to reference her in name, but have referenced her action specifically in the thread. But now that you have mentioned the name this is one of the individuals that sought to become a parade marshall of the parade while also plotting with the protestors to in fact STOP and protest the parade and JOINED with the protestors and in fact being their spokesperson. She seems a very nice individual. But to me that is quite a clear conflict. Again I leave it to readers to decide what they think of her dual actions. Will be interesting to see if difference of opinion occurs within pride.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    I was not at the parade.

    But my friend was standing at the Second Cup on Whyte and Calgary Trail. That intersection was where the parade was halted by the protesters. She witnessed the protesters spring into action just in front of an indigenous group's float. The indigenous folks were robbed of interacting and displaying their pride as they approached that intersection. All because a dozen people had an axe to grind.

    The irony is if anyone has any right to protest against the police/military it would be the indigenous.
    Last edited by North Guy66; 11-06-2018 at 06:43 PM.

  63. #63

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    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"
    Maybe you could google why you feel the need to be a doushe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"
    Maybe you could google why you feel the need to be a doushe

    LOL, he knows!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"
    Maybe you could google why you feel the need to be a doushe
    You put literally zero effort into this and are asking to just be spoon fed the answers. I gave you a link, and told you how I found it. With a small hint of annoyance.

    And I'm the douche?

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"
    Maybe you could google why you feel the need to be a doushe
    You put literally zero effort into this and are asking to just be spoon fed the answers. I gave you a link, and told you how I found it. With a small hint of annoyance.

    And I'm the douche?

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"
    Maybe you could google why you feel the need to be a doushe

    LOL, he knows!
    First of all, how do you know Dark Magnus is a guy? Maybe Dark Magnus identifies as X? We can do that now
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    i would like to know wtf the miltary has to do with any of this to begin with and why they were lumped in with the police
    A little effort yields: http://lgbtpurge.com/

    I just googled "canada military lgbt"
    Maybe you could google why you feel the need to be a doushe

    LOL, he knows!
    First of all, how do you know Dark Magnus is a guy? Maybe Dark Magnus identifies as X? We can do that now
    I identify as a burger thank you very much.

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    ^ Burger King!
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    One of these days I'm going to ask the gender neutral movement nut cas, er things, when there will be a movement to end masculine/feminine gender names. Can I call myself "Ocean 11?" Oops I think that's been taken already.

    Seriously though imo people are just people regardless of sexual orientation. There's no reason to hate any for it. I'm from the 1950's, what do i know? Not much is my usual answer to co workers and friends..
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  73. #73

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    Just as an update several of the activists that were involved in stopping the parade have had online contact with BLM, and notably with Bashir Mohamed (who just happens to have countless tweets/retweets on the subject and there appears to be a lot of networking and back and forth going on) This just being what is visible online.

    -One of the individuals with the megaphone is Trans and has had some absolutely bizarre things to say online.

    Another individual with a megaphone that lost it several times and was screaming and ranting at people and even aggressively charging them in rage is a T refugee from Uganda that has been here for two years after applying for asylum at a gay and lesbian swim meet held here. (he was wearing the Uganda jersey)This is an obviously traumatized individual who had terrible experiences with police and authorities and family in his native Uganda. People can seek out the videos, I have no interest in identifying corrolary names here on this site.

    Now maybe this is just my impression but I'm not sure how two ladies that got knocked down to the ground due to the "peaceful" melee (that required police, and bystanders to intervene), feel about the relative safety of what went on before the parade. I thought the protest occurred to effect feelings of safety for all. One or more traumatized individuals ranting with megaphones raging at people who were questioning the stopped parade probably was not a pleasant experience for those nearby. I'll note that screaming and full blown displays of rage have also been a common BLM tactic.

    In anycase if some of the individuals most impacted by police trauma have had that trauma through experiences in other countries why is it necessary to prevent police HERE, in Canada, from participating? Canadian police were not the source of that trauma for those individuals impacted. An argument can be made that some imported trauma was at the surface in the protest. It is interesting, even unsettling, that the protest organizers gave the individual from Uganda a front center role and megaphone in what was obviously an overwhelming experience for the person. From reports this individual was also yelling at the crowd to shut up. Maybe not the best person among the protestors to be handed a megaphone. This individual experienced as well some regrettable feedback during the escalation. Which is unfortunate. One would think one of the more composed protesters could have taken on that role.

    I can't speak for others, but screaming, yelling, finger pointing, raging, commonly elicit trauma revisiting and trigger memories of abuse for many individuals that have been impacted. I don't know that this makes everybody feel safe either. Understand that for the vast majority of people there they probably didn't know this was going to occur. They were not advised, permitted time to leave, or considered at the time of the protest. Instead this protest was inflicted on the crowd. A crowd that has had varying reactions to the protest.

    After examining the list of the protestors there are at least a dozen or two among them who would have been much better able to have a lead role during the protest. That would have been able to carry out the demonstration in more conducive tones. Ones at least that would not elicit any trauma in others or even in themselves.

    I think theres still a lot to unwrap and questions to be asked in what went down
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-06-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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  74. #74

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    Next, Bashir Mohamed (who I will identify as he wants that incessantly) and others are attempting to social media shame out individuals "in leather" (nice divisive generalization) for provoking the escalation at the pride parade. A predictable and deplorable tactic of external blame that BLM always uses. Yet I've seen a video where two of those individuals are actually attempting to defuse the situation and can be heard audibly reminding people in the fracas to be peaceful. Bashir of course, or the protesters, will not mention that the colleague from Uganda is the most aggressive individual seen on tape and was throughout the proceeding at least as seen on various videos. But the people in leather were white so....

    Bashir, predictably, is in full activation ever since the protest complaining about why there was such reaction at the parade, and since, questioning the protest. It will be interesting to see the many ways he spins this but will of course lead to him claiming the reactions are ALL racist. Its what he does, its what BLM does. How is this guy granted so much airplay in the media, time with council, the Mayor etc?

    I'm reminded of the BLM cofounder in Toronto who claimed that white people were genetically defective (among many other things and including asking allah for the strength not to kill white people) has won an award this year from the city of Toronto for youth leadership. I wish I was making this up. Her other BLM Toronto cofounder embezzled 280K from UofT and charges are still pending. These being considered "fine" examples of award winning youth leadership in Toronto. The same BLM in Toronto stormed a U of T office screaming and raging at the individuals working there and screaming about the lawsuit and that they are all racists. Imagine the trauma those staffers were inflicted with. Sadly this is commonplace in BLM tactical attack. That mode isn't fullblown here yet but seemingly its starting.

    Bashir, thankfully, is better than that, but his hubris and rhetoric befits BLM polarized thinking fully. Do City councils even peruse the malfeasance going on through BLM in countless other cities? I mean before granting them such liberal input into municipal decision making process?
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-06-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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    Lets hope these kinds of shenanigan's don't happen at the Cariwest festival later this summer. Thanks for the BLM update.
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  76. #76

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    Seems to be a lot of generalization on BLM. It’s composed of a variety of people just like the police and military. Where any generation might have a bit of validity is when the followers follow the lead of the those that can or do have power over them.

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    Top_Dawg would love to see the authorities suspend all future pride parades in the interests of public safety.

    The irony would be delicious.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Seems to be a lot of generalization on BLM. It’s composed of a variety of people just like the police and military. Where any generation might have a bit of validity is when the followers follow the lead of the those that can or do have power over them.
    Well, the biggest and clearest gross generalization of all is that police everywhere are killers that are "killing blacks" and that make "marginalized" people fear them to the degree that the police have to be banned from all pride parades everywhere until certain participants can feel safe with their presence. Note based on the subjective feeling of feeling safe. Note as well that traumatized individuals that would have a tendency to feel unsafe often have pronounced feelings of that in response to a lot of triggers. Lets ban spiders from the parade too. Clowns, gotta remember clowns, those buggers are terrifying. And those little shitzu dogs, I saw a horror movie with one of those....

    jk around but seriously, we know what the biggest generalization is.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-06-2018 at 05:27 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  79. #79

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    Generalizations across geography, communities, populations, time...

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