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Thread: Edmonton/Calgary Hyperloop One Link

  1. #1
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    Default Edmonton/Calgary Hyperloop One Link

    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I don't want to see this happen.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    Nope, I don't either

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    Same. Not in Edmonton’s interests.

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    They say they can build it for 6 billion? What is the land cost for 300 km of land, not to mention actually building the thing?

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    It would kill EIA

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    Another PRT idea?
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    Maybe there can be gondolas...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    My comments here are exactly the same as HSR.

    • We simply do not have the ridership at the level needed to make this profitable. There is no way this is a private venture at these margins.
    • Ed/Cal is ~3 million. That isn't even metro Seattle.
    • Depending on routing, this could kill our direct air service to anywhere. Currently, people hate changing planes, let alone getting on a train
    • this is still point to point, without taking into account your final destination. Depending on needs, etc., driving is often more applicable.


    That said, and same with HSR, the technology is cool, the engineering is exciting, and I can see this working in the Northeast or the Western I-5 corridor...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  10. #10
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    Default What ever happened to Hover Trains?

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    Wow...that is a blast from the past...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    My comments here are exactly the same as HSR.

    • We simply do not have the ridership at the level needed to make this profitable. There is no way this is a private venture at these margins.
    • Ed/Cal is ~3 million. That isn't even metro Seattle.
    • Depending on routing, this could kill our direct air service to anywhere. Currently, people hate changing planes, let alone getting on a train
    • this is still point to point, without taking into account your final destination. Depending on needs, etc., driving is often more applicable.


    That said, and same with HSR, the technology is cool, the engineering is exciting, and I can see this working in the Northeast or the Western I-5 corridor...
    Totally concur and parallel my thoughts since HSR was first proposed. I still remember the knee slapping sales pitch that the Edmonton-Calgary corridor "busiest economic corridors in all of Canada." from Intergovernmental Relations Minister Guy Boutilier and the very biased (flawed) Van Horne report. Obviously they never have traveled the Winsor-Toronto-Montreal-Quebec City Corridor with over 18 million people, 6 times more than Alberta's.

    I actually had a meeting with then Transportation Minister, Ed Stelmach and when he asked me for my opinion on HSR, I bluntly told him that "High Speed Rail would be the biggest white elephant in Alberta's history" and laid out the facts as you eloquently did RichardS, above. It was not the response Ed Stelmach wanted to hear.

    But it was the correct one...

    Reads...
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/trainwreck-ca...ilure-1.588692
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ttee-1.2652342
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 22-04-2018 at 08:00 PM.
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Maybe there can be gondolas...
    High Speed Gondola!!!

    Or

    Hyper Loop Gondolas


    They can already do 100 kmh so it’s just a matter of time

    Includes a great view on the trip too! When one isn’t puking from that up and down business.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    My comments here are exactly the same as HSR.

    • We simply do not have the ridership at the level needed to make this profitable. There is no way this is a private venture at these margins.
    • Ed/Cal is ~3 million. That isn't even metro Seattle.
    • Depending on routing, this could kill our direct air service to anywhere. Currently, people hate changing planes, let alone getting on a train
    • this is still point to point, without taking into account your final destination. Depending on needs, etc., driving is often more applicable.


    That said, and same with HSR, the technology is cool, the engineering is exciting, and I can see this working in the Northeast or the Western I-5 corridor...
    Totally concur and parallel my thoughts since HSR was first proposed. I still remember the knee slapping sales pitch that the Edmonton-Calgary corridor "busiest economic corridors in all of Canada." from Intergovernmental Relations Minister Guy Boutilier and the very biased (flawed) Van Horne report. Obviously they never have traveled the Winsor-Toronto-Montreal-Quebec City Corridor with over 18 million people, 6 times more than Alberta's.

    I actually had a meeting with then Transportation Minister, Ed Stelmach and when he asked me for my opinion on HSR, I bluntly told him that "High Speed Rail would be the biggest white elephant in Alberta's history" and laid out the facts as you eloquently did RichardS, above. It was not the response Ed Stelmach wanted to hear.

    But it was the correct one...

    Reads...
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/trainwreck-ca...ilure-1.588692
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ttee-1.2652342
    Not to mention that it could strip all remaining head offices out of Edmonton.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    They say they can build it for 6 billion? What is the land cost for 300 km of land, not to mention actually building the thing?
    Always double the estimate.

    $12 billion in this case.

  16. #16

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    and halve ridership...
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    If anything, HSR to Jasper-Vancouver
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    LOL...we can built a real vomit comet...

    1% grades be d*****
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Gendron said the sparse population between Calgary and Edmonton would make the line less disruptive and the relatively straight, flat route easy for it to navigate.
    The above quote from the Journal article proves the proponents of this boondoggle don't have a clue.

    Sparse population? The corridor between Edmonton and Calgary is quite densely populated with numerous growing cities, towns and industrial parks, and the highest land values in the province.

    Straight, flat? Contrary to Gendron's assumption, there are actually a lot of river valleys, hills and coulees along the corridor that would have to be tunneled through or elevated over.

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    How about just improve highway 2 to be full fledged 3-4 lane freeway?

    Highway 2 is narrow, overcrowded and dangerous.

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    And modernize the interchanges. But don't you know motor vehicles emit major pollutants? That's why we must build bicycle lanes, traffic blocking LRT, and have roadways that are too narrow, have them full of potholes and generally unmaintained, and 1964 roadways in 2020 that handle 10 times the traffic. To encourage people to get away from driving and promote other means that is safer for the environment. Higher fuel prices, carbon taxes, tolls, extremely high insurance costs, high maintenance and service costs not to mention high prices for vehicles that are only made to last 6 or 7 years. It's all a plot to weigh us down till we give in , give up, and park it and get a monthly transit pass and a bicycle. I would sooner ride a horse. When downtown I could tie it by city hall to eat the nice grass and lots of parkland too. I'll hitch on my wagon when I stock up at Costco. I better get some rest now. Nurse. lol

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    They want land to conduct an experiment. The hyperloop technology is not mature.

    The ticket price for such tech would be too high. Though faster and more expensive than off-the-shelf existing tech, the benefits vs cost would be lower ratio than off the shelf technology.

    Despite what the politicians think from a Legislative committee report, it is not the Population base, it is the number of trips that population generates.
    Funny though, same said report called for identifying the corridor and saving it now for the future. Still not happening. No leadership.

    Super not impressed with this attitude that foretells of all the head offices moving to Calgary. Keep thinking like that and Edmonton will always be government and university town.

    As for loss of air service, yes, traffic will divert from the YEG-YYC route. Gate 49 would be less busy at YEG. I doubt people will go taxi-train-taxi YYC in order to travel to YYZ. The future for YEG is still bright.

  23. #23

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    Most provinces have only one international airport. We don't have the population to warrant two. Calgary already gets the lion's share of internationsl flights.

    As soon as HSR or Hyperloop would be built, the EIA would become a regional hub and all international flights moved to Calgary. Next time you wanted to fly to Europe, Asia, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Los Angeles or Mexico, you would not be able to get a direct flight from Edmonton.

    This is a fact due to simple airline economics.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Most provinces have only one international airport. We don't have the population to warrant two. Calgary already gets the lion's share of internationsl flights.

    As soon as HSR or Hyperloop would be built, the EIA would become a regional hub and all international flights moved to Calgary. Next time you wanted to fly to Europe, Asia, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Los Angeles or Mexico, you would not be able to get a direct flight from Edmonton.

    This is a fact due to simple airline economics.
    Your talking trash.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Most provinces have only one international airport. We don't have the population to warrant two. Calgary already gets the lion's share of internationsl flights.

    As soon as HSR or Hyperloop would be built, the EIA would become a regional hub and all international flights moved to Calgary. Next time you wanted to fly to Europe, Asia, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Los Angeles or Mexico, you would not be able to get a direct flight from Edmonton.

    This is a fact due to simple airline economics.
    Your talking trash.
    Ah, most provinces don't have TWO cities over a million people, not BC, not Quebec - only Ontario, which by the way actually also does have two international airports, despite the relative proximity of Ottawa to another much larger city.

    Yeah I am sure we'll all be flying to Mars on our jet packs by next year or maybe in self driving cars if they can find a way for them to stop killing people. I know some people these days have very active imaginations about innovations and progress, but anything that involves physical movement has more challenges to it and is not so easily resolved by technology as say downloading a movie. As Tesla is also discovering, it is not so easy to make complex moving things.

  26. #26

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    New Brunswick has two international airports, Moncton and Fredericton. So does Newfoundland & Labrador, Gander and St. John's. So does Saskatchewan, Regina and Saskatoon. Quebec City and Montreal for Quebec. Ontario actually has three, you forgot Hamilton.

    Actually, most provinces have more than one international airport.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    New Brunswick has two international airports, Moncton and Fredericton. So does Newfoundland & Labrador, Gander and St. John's. So does Saskatchewan, Regina and Saskatoon. Quebec City and Montreal for Quebec. Ontario actually has three, you forgot Hamilton.

    Actually, most provinces have more than one international airport.
    ... and all places considerably smaller than Edmonton too - Hamilton especially better watch out for that hyper loop supposedly coming soon too, I guess. Hey don't they already have regular Go Trains to TO, and yet they still have an international airport?

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    For all intents and purposes Hamilton is not an international airport for passengers. In 2016 they only had 333,000 passengers total and most of those were domestic. The do however have a strong cargo component. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...orts_in_Canada
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    New Brunswick has two international airports, Moncton and Fredericton. So does Newfoundland & Labrador, Gander and St. John's. So does Saskatchewan, Regina and Saskatoon. Quebec City and Montreal for Quebec. Ontario actually has three, you forgot Hamilton.

    Actually, most provinces have more than one international airport.
    ... and all places considerably smaller than Edmonton too - Hamilton especially better watch out for that hyper loop supposedly coming soon too, I guess. Hey don't they already have regular Go Trains to TO, and yet they still have an international airport?
    You're flight choices are extremely limited. Even Montreal has far less than Toronto as an example. You see the difference in flights between Calgary and EIA.
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    What about Victoria International Airport, Abbotsford International Airport, Kelowna International Airport, Prince George International Airport, Canadian Rockies International Airport (Cranbrook)

  31. #31

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    For God's sake you are missing the point. There are two international airports in Dawson City Yukon FFS

    Dawson City Airport and Dawson City Water Aerodrome
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

    Technically there are 7 international airports in Alberta alone
    Calgary International Airport
    Calgary/Springbank Airport
    CFB Cold Lake
    Coutts/Ross International Airport Coutts
    Del Bonita/Whetstone International Airport
    Edmonton International Airport
    Lethbridge County Airport

    Of the airports below, only 13 are designated as international airports by Transport Canada: St John's, Gander, Halifax, Moncton, Fredericton, Quebec, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.


    The point is, if you build HSR or Hyperloop between Edmonton and Calgary, the law of increasing returns will result in fewer direct flights from Edmonton to international destinations.

    Example of disparity already between CIA and EIA
    July 1st flights to London
    Edmonton, Direct flights ZERO
    Calgary Direct Flights, Three/day

    July 1st flights to Phoenix
    Edmonton, Direct flights ZERO
    Calgary Direct Flights, Two/day

    July 1st flights to Tokyo
    Edmonton, Direct flights ZERO
    Calgary Direct Flights, One/day

    Want more examples?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 27-04-2018 at 02:25 PM.
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    I believe they are canceling the Tokyo flight. There's a lot more money in Calgary. Money talks. Canada has become a three cities that matter country. Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary. Vancouver the west coast, Calgary the prairie region and Toronto the rest. Montreal, Edmonton and others are getting left in the dust. Think of where the money is.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 27-04-2018 at 05:12 PM.

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    HSR or Hyperloop would only benefit Calgary. It would just encourage more people to fly out of Calgary.
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    I'd wait for other routes to take flight, as the Hyperloop technology matures.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  35. #35

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    Always wondered what would happen if someone who was claustrophobic and had an anxiety attack in a sealed tube.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I believe they are canceling the Tokyo flight. There's a lot more money in Calgary. Money talks. Canada has become a three cities that matter country. Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary. Vancouver the west coast, Calgary the prairie region and Toronto the rest. Montreal, Edmonton and others are getting left in the dust. Think of where the money is.
    There's a bit more than money, but it does play a major role...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Always wondered what would happen if someone who was claustrophobic and had an anxiety attack in a sealed tube.
    Considering they would have the panic/anxiety attack before the enclosed capsule entered said sealed tube...they probably wouldn't get on. At the speeds, it would probably stop in red deer...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    HSR or Hyperloop would only benefit Calgary. It would just encourage more people to fly out of Calgary.
    I follow the logic. But price has a part to play. Why pay $90 to take a train to catch a flight in Calgary + arsing around to transfer from train to airport with additional cost when you can pay $50 for a taxi or less on transit and LRT to go to YEG?

    From the 12 year old data/study by Alberta Transportation's hired consultants (TEMS and Oliver Wyman) that was supposed to be an "investment grade" or "take this report to the bank and get the money to do it" kind of report: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca..._FINAL_rev.pdf

    the 125 mph rail mode attracts 167,000 Air trips, which represent 17% of all Air trips. It should be noted that the diversion is largely from the growth of new traffic,
    The chart shows that as the train goes faster, the more pasengers move from air to rail: 150 mph - 31% 200 mph - 46% 300 mph - 74%

    880 Air Survey questionnaires and were completed.
    Auto is the dominant mode accounting for about 91% of estimated trips between the metropolitan areas of Calgary, Edmonton and Red Deer. The remaining 9% of the market is divided between air travel (with an estimated 6%, only between Calgary and Edmonton) and Bus travel, which captures 3% of the trips.
    Works out to about 10 million trips annually in the corridor of which 616,000 are air travellers between Edmonton and Calgary only - not connecting passengers.

    The vast majority of [air] travellers are business travellers (54%), high-earners (51%) and employed full-time (78%). They are individually not frequent travellers, although as a group they dominate air travel.
    The improvement in HSR technology leads to a higher market share for rail. Specifically, 125 mph is forecasted to have a market share of 1.85%, 150 mph of 3.10%, 200 mph of 4.84% and 300 mph of 6.73%. The growth of rail traffic is at the expense of auto, Red Arrow and Air, while the Greyhound market is rather stable given the different character of its role in the corridor,
    the reduction in fares in both Air and Red Arrow has the twin effect of lessening the diversion to rail and generating diversion from Greyhound to Red Arrow. In this environment with both Red Arrow and Air maintaining 20 percent reductions in fares, the rail option loses 20 to 30 percent of its traffic.

    For consideration and debate.

  39. #39

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    Those fantastical projections on ridership were thoroughly debunked as junk in the HSR thread. If you are interested, read that thread.
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    I expect to see comfortable solar powered advanced electrical buses on the hi-way soon enough ... maybe on 30 minute intervals - no need for rails.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 03-05-2018 at 08:15 AM.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jackson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    HSR or Hyperloop would only benefit Calgary. It would just encourage more people to fly out of Calgary.
    I follow the logic. But price has a part to play. Why pay $90 to take a train to catch a flight in Calgary + arsing around to transfer from train to airport with additional cost when you can pay $50 for a taxi or less on transit and LRT to go to YEG?

    From the 12 year old data/study by Alberta Transportation's hired consultants (TEMS and Oliver Wyman) that was supposed to be an "investment grade" or "take this report to the bank and get the money to do it" kind of report: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca..._FINAL_rev.pdf

    the 125 mph rail mode attracts 167,000 Air trips, which represent 17% of all Air trips. It should be noted that the diversion is largely from the growth of new traffic,
    The chart shows that as the train goes faster, the more pasengers move from air to rail: 150 mph - 31% 200 mph - 46% 300 mph - 74%

    880 Air Survey questionnaires and were completed.
    Auto is the dominant mode accounting for about 91% of estimated trips between the metropolitan areas of Calgary, Edmonton and Red Deer. The remaining 9% of the market is divided between air travel (with an estimated 6%, only between Calgary and Edmonton) and Bus travel, which captures 3% of the trips.
    Works out to about 10 million trips annually in the corridor of which 616,000 are air travellers between Edmonton and Calgary only - not connecting passengers.

    The vast majority of [air] travellers are business travellers (54%), high-earners (51%) and employed full-time (78%). They are individually not frequent travellers, although as a group they dominate air travel.
    The improvement in HSR technology leads to a higher market share for rail. Specifically, 125 mph is forecasted to have a market share of 1.85%, 150 mph of 3.10%, 200 mph of 4.84% and 300 mph of 6.73%. The growth of rail traffic is at the expense of auto, Red Arrow and Air, while the Greyhound market is rather stable given the different character of its role in the corridor,
    the reduction in fares in both Air and Red Arrow has the twin effect of lessening the diversion to rail and generating diversion from Greyhound to Red Arrow. In this environment with both Red Arrow and Air maintaining 20 percent reductions in fares, the rail option loses 20 to 30 percent of its traffic.

    For consideration and debate.
    I think this discussion might be muddling up what may be technologically possible at some future point soon with what is economically viable. High speed rail is already technologically possible and in use in many places in the world and has been talked about for years in Alberta, but nothing has happened. That should be a clue as to its viability. Edmonton and Calgary may seem to be significant cities to us and there is a lot of back and forth traffic, but really we are talking about two cities with about a million to a million and a half people, which I am guessing is below the threshold of economic viability for these things and not big on the world scale. We are not talking about cities the size of Bejing or Shanghai here.

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