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Thread: The all-encompassing Northlands site redevelopment thread

  1. #201

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    Well they’re just going to end up not getting respectable proposals then.

    Why the city creates red tape like this is beyond me. Did they own the rights to the design of the new arena when it was proposed?

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    Back from the dead? Coliseum pitches to get one final review

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...box=1529103546

    Interesting concept for Concordia expansion

    https://imgur.com/gallery/a26uvMJ
    Last edited by 240GLT; 15-06-2018 at 08:20 PM.
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    So linear...
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  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    So linear...
    How else would you recommend Concordia expand it’s campus?

    And what is with council being so rushed to kill the coliseum? Some of these ideas are very good ones that will save the city the headache of demolishing the building at the tax payers expense.

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    Probably because it costs a couple million per year just to maintain a shuttered arena, right?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  7. #207

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    So the demolition decision was fully known by insiders as being contractually set in stone years ago because “permanent closure” is a legal term for demolition?




    ‘It’s about common sense’: Architect’s group vows to keep fighting for Edmonton’s Coliseum | Edmonton Journal

    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...lands-coliseum
    Last edited by KC; 21-06-2018 at 10:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Probably because it costs a couple million per year just to maintain a shuttered arena, right?
    i think i might be quite happy maintaining the building shuttered on a contract basis for that much money - actually, i think I might be quite happy taking that on for quite a bit less than that.

    you need enough heat to keep things from freezing, you need to maintain lighting and you need to provide security. elevators, escalators, kitchen equipment ice plant etc. can all be decommissioned. i believe that has already started and i'm not convinced there isn't enough salvage/recycle value for that to be net positive cash flow, at least initially.

    those costs relating to maintaining the grounds and parking lots etc. and lrt access and security etc. are the same whether the building is there or whether it isn't and need to be separate line items.
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    finally, the opportunity that both students and seniors have been looking for; living together!

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    I hope that they will build something with a mix of retail, residential, perhaps add some land and something more to Borden Park park.

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    Exhibition lands: City trots out four proposed plans

    Edmonton residents will get their first chance to view four possible land use options for the 220-plus acre exhibition lands at a special public workshop hosted by the city Tuesday.

    Exhibition lands initiative manager Lyall Brenneis said the event will feature concept plans, hourly presentations and the opportunity for attendees to have their say on their preferred option for the Northlands site.

    Brenneis said the open house will enable his team to “see what really resonates with the community.”
    He said he is excited about the chance to unveil the options.

    “You can only talk about ideas for so long and then it is about putting those ideas onto paper to create concepts,” he said Monday.

    “It feels like we are making some good progress towards the final plan, which will be really great.”

    Following the workshops, the list will be narrowed down to two or three options. Those will then be submitted to an urban planning committee meeting in mid-November.

    Based upon council’s feedback, Brenneis’s team will go back to the community with one preferred concept for another engagement period.

    That will then go to a public hearing in the first quarter of 2019, he said.

    The four concepts range from a lower public investment plan that has minimal municipal funding attached and a majority of private sector based funding to the other end of the spectrum which would require more money from the city.

    Brenneis said the plans being put forward were generated from solicited and unsolicited submitted ideas from the public coupled with technical and market analysis and input from community, business and developers.

    Just over 100 ideas were submitted to the city during an earlier consultation process.

    The land in question covers the area from 120 Avenue in the north including the Coliseum lands to 112 Avenue in the south, Wayne Gretzky Drive in the east and the LRT line and the edge of Parkdale and Eastwood communities in the west.

    The workshop will be at Bellevue Community Hall at the east end of Borden Park, 7308 112 Ave. An afternoon session runs between 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. and an evening event is 5 p.m. to 8 p.m.

    Presentations will be held every hour at 1:15 p.m., 2:15 p.m., 5:15 p.m., 6:15 p.m. and 7:15 p.m.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Young people and seniors living together, could make for some great parties!

  13. #213

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    "trots out" - I thought the horses were gone now...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Young people and seniors living together, could make for some great parties!
    If time travel could happen, I'd take you to the old 'Flashback' night club to witness that literally. Young, old, and between are the true reflection of life, and the way it should be. Im curious if this will be another Blatchford; lets throw away money for sake of throwing it out just so a study could be done...
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    Why not just let private enterprise take over the coliseum (and other areas) for development. Nice taxes to come in, badly needed housing would be built and lrt is right there. If I were the city I would sell the coliseum for $1 to this development group.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 18-09-2018 at 01:14 AM.

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    Drumbones it’s because Edmonton under Iveson with his control of City Planning and Development has a socialist agenda. Iveson is bringing new life to the that old tagline “Redmonton” ... and which we can expect to see more often come up ... soon enough.

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    Ahaa, I see. Too bad. Well somebody better talk some sense into that boy.

  18. #218

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    Turn all the land into a heavily naturalized park. It’s environmentally friendly. It creates massive environmental brownie points. Optics matter here and work wonders. (BC, through massive energy inefficient glass tower growth still gets the greens free pass while clear cutting, dumping sewage into the ocean, mining coal, etc. Vancouver’s treed mountainsides, Stanley Park,... do optical wonders)

    So then our City could stop interfering win everyone else’s life by imposing ever more costly and effectively-useless little environmental regulations and processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Turn all the land into a heavily naturalized park. It’s environmentally friendly. It creates massive environmental brownie points. Optics matter here and work wonders. (BC, through massive energy inefficient glass tower growth still gets the greens free pass while clear cutting, dumping sewage into the ocean, mining coal, etc. Vancouver’s treed mountainsides, Stanley Park,... do optical wonders)

    So then our City could stop interfering win everyone else’s life by imposing ever more costly and effectively-useless little environmental regulations and processes.
    one of the options is to turn it much of it into a park although with usable and not heavily naturalized spaces (sports fields and ball diamond etc.). interestingly enough it is considered the most expensive option because there are fewer offsetting sales revenues. possibly because they don’t credit the cost of building elsewhere to this project’s cost even though they will have to build them elsewhere if not here. the options are ranked but the matrix and breakdowns are [not yet anyway] available for either costs or revenues.
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  20. #220

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    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...nton-1.4829138

    I think it is somewhat disappointing that instead of taking the opportunity to make Wayne Gretzky free-flowing to the Yellowhead, the CoE proposes to further compromise its traffic capacity by turning it into an urban street and opening up adjacent property to development. This is in direct conflict with its status as an expressway functioning as the eastern leg of the inner ring road, creating superfluous connectivity in a conduit that was meant for maximum throughput. In a sense, this is the other extreme to Blatchford which refused to create the necessary connections to restore the traffic grid.

    I also fundamentally disagree with the decision to expand Borden park, which strikes me as concentrating green space where there is already a surfeit, rather than strategically distributing it to serve the largest amount of citizens in the most effective manner. The majority of new parklands should be in the northern reaches of the site where there is a relative deficit of naturalised green space (as opposed to manicured grass fields or treed boulevards).

    As is, I feel the concepts presented merely re-emphasise the existing features and zoning/layout of the site rather than actually offering a genuine revitalization or vision.

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    I like the last option because its a balanced approach. My green dot would go there.
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    Edmonton Journal:


    Concept A




    Concept B




    Concept C1




    Concept C2

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  23. #223

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    I agree with foolworm. Borden park doen’t need to be expanded, and the urban street ide is awe full. It makes no sense that many of the options have an expensive relocation of Coliseum station and bringing 118to grade on the list which will have pretty minimal benefits but non of them consider grade separating WGD under 118 and 119 aves.

    i like some portions of some plans, like a 113ave multi-use crossing over WGD but there’s not much here to get excited over.
    There can only be one.

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    Maybe just get together with riocan and they can fill the property with businesses

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    ^^Agree. Shocking that Administration would support turning WGD (part of the inner ring road) into an urban street.

    None of the concepts seem to allow for the continuing use of the exhibition lands for a midway (K-Days) which is still Edmonton's best attended summer fair. Nor does there seem to be provision for the livestock barns and other infrastructure needed to host major agricultural exhibitions.

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    That struck me too East (no provision for a midway). Wouldn't bother me, but I do acknowledge there is a significant population that would miss having one.

    Also agree - why are city planners so damn-the-torpedoes fixated on adding LRT stops (slowing the journey) and narrowing major thoroughfares (slowing the journey)? It's a sick culture over at planning and (un)development.

    The soccer stadium looks great though. I assume it uses some or all of the horse racing grandstand?
    ... gobsmacked

  27. #227

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    This plan is a short sighted. Yes decouple WGD, but grade separate 118 ave. Doesn't have to be a full on freeway, but at least turn the damn thing into a proper arterial road.
    Why is Borden park being expanded exactly?

    And most importantly as stated, where does the city hold the exhibition now? Move that to EIA as well? With 800,000+ attendees, it is the most defining event of our summers. You have LRT connection and an expo centre. Where else would you move the exhibition? Getting rid of it completely would be the ultimate blunder....

    There's nothing presented here that I support.

    This just looks like an exercise in ramming a TOD in an existing area.

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    We are now expected to attend the Calgary stampede I guess.

  29. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Maybe just get together with riocan and they can fill the property with businesses
    They should build an airport!

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^^Agree. Shocking that Administration would support turning WGD (part of the inner ring road) into an urban street.

    None of the concepts seem to allow for the continuing use of the exhibition lands for a midway (K-Days) which is still Edmonton's best attended summer fair. Nor does there seem to be provision for the livestock barns and other infrastructure needed to host major agricultural exhibitions.
    Northlands is now irrelevant. Maintaining all that land for a one week festival is a waste. Whatever regional fair Edmonton ends up with can go down by the airport or someplace like that. There is no need for livestock barns because there will be no more agricultural exhibitions.
    Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

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    ^What is a waste is leveling the site and expecting a different outcome than adding the exhibition lands to the growing list of City-led failures in redevelopment (e.g. Blatchford, Stadium Station, Fort Road, Quarters, North Edge, etc.).

    The ten day regional fair and exhibition has a larger paid attendance than any other festival and is not easily relocated. Morever, it is wrong to turn our backs on the 800,000+ Edmontonians for whom a midway is a highlight of their summer. Plus it is wrong to turn our backs on Edmonton's agricultural heritage. We've already lost the CFR. Now on top this Edmonton is prepared to lose Farm Fair and the other farm and livestock shows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^What is a waste is leveling the site and expecting a different outcome than adding the exhibition lands to the growing list of City-led failures in redevelopment (e.g. Blatchford, Stadium Station, Fort Road, Quarters, North Edge, etc.).

    The ten day regional fair and exhibition has a larger paid attendance than any other festival and is not easily relocated. Morever, it is wrong to turn our backs on the 800,000+ Edmontonians for whom a midway is a highlight of their summer. Plus it is wrong to turn our backs on Edmonton's agricultural heritage. We've already lost the CFR. Now on top this Edmonton is prepared to lose Farm Fair and the other farm and livestock shows.
    Well unfortunately, that horse has left the barn, so-to-speak.

    It is what it is. No one should be shocked or surprised by any of this. The city turned it's back on Northlands, the coliseum and the site in general in order to get it wanted so now we have to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the situation and it's too late to change it now.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 19-09-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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  33. #233

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    I asked about K-days. I was told the 1st areas to be redeveloped are on the southern side. K-days can move north and take up an equal amount of space (though 118 ave would bisect the area). The northern part of the grounds will likely not be redeveloped for another 15-20 years, so, that time can be used to come up with a more permanent plan.

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    At least with option C2 (my green dot choice) with the Coliseum station bus loop being moved to 117th Ave, could make way from having the via rail train there at some point time.
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    Farm Fair is held indoor in the Expo Centre, so doesn't need the giant parking lot that is Northlands 355 days of the year.

    Yes, shutting the midway down is problematic, though we have a smaller version under glass at WEM 365 days/year. That said, some alternative venue may be necessary.

    As for CFR, we didn't lose it - terrible, almost galactically stupid management atop the CFR lost us. Wouldn't be surprised but that eventually the cowboys and OEG will find a way to bring it back.

    ^ As interesting as that sounds, not practical. Well, not w/o a huge expenditure of $$
    Last edited by McBoo; 19-09-2018 at 01:26 PM.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^What is a waste is leveling the site and expecting a different outcome than adding the exhibition lands to the growing list of City-led failures in redevelopment (e.g. Blatchford, Stadium Station, Fort Road, Quarters, North Edge, etc.).

    The ten day regional fair and exhibition has a larger paid attendance than any other festival and is not easily relocated. Morever, it is wrong to turn our backs on the 800,000+ Edmontonians for whom a midway is a highlight of their summer. Plus it is wrong to turn our backs on Edmonton's agricultural heritage. We've already lost the CFR. Now on top this Edmonton is prepared to lose Farm Fair and the other farm and livestock shows.
    Well unfortunately, that horse has left the barn, so-to-speak.

    It is what it is. No one should be shocked or surprised by any of this. The city turned it's back on Northlands, the coliseum and the site in general in order to get it wanted so now we have to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the situation and it's too late to change it now.
    agreed that we have to deal with the consequences but i'm not sure the process has or will result in what we deserve at the local or the municipal level.

    underwhelming choices is the most charitable conclusion i can arrive at when i look at these options.

    that starts with the precondition that the coliseum needs to be demolished and cannot be repurposed for anything. i know the official position is that horse has already left the barn but i still see no reason - other than the lack of political will - for it not to be reconsidered.

    it moves on to the impact that each of these options has on EXPO Hall as every one would seem to effectively deal it a death sentence as well.

    many of the "big ticket items" such as bringing 118th avenue to grade, eliminating the wayne gretzky couplet, relocating the lrt station seem to be already predetermined in the assessment matrix - i.e. the costs are included in some options that makes them more expensive, even though they could proceed without them, and they're not included in others where they may be perceived as adding value. it's as if all the costs are loaded into someone's least preferred options in order to make their preferred choice easier for others to commit to.

    so many of the important decisions have been predetermined here that one wonders whether this is yet another current example of gigo in action.

    i'm also not sure that using consultants from elsewhere helps in defining options that are able to respond to either local or municipal nuances...
    Last edited by kcantor; 19-09-2018 at 03:48 PM.
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  37. #237

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    Sure we don't get a chance to repurpose the Coliseum and we lost the CFR and Northlands is no more and it's likely that K-Days is done as well but at least the new arena has a no compete clause. Guess that's worth it, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Farm Fair is held indoor in the Expo Centre, so doesn't need the giant parking lot that is Northlands 355 days of the year.

    Yes, shutting the midway down is problematic, though we have a smaller version under glass at WEM 365 days/year. That said, some alternative venue may be necessary.

    As for CFR, we didn't lose it - terrible, almost galactically stupid management atop the CFR lost us. Wouldn't be surprised but that eventually the cowboys and OEG will find a way to bring it back.

    ^ As interesting as that sounds, not practical. Well, not w/o a huge expenditure of $$
    Either way all 4 options would have large amounts of dollars attached to these concepts. Having Via Rail partner in one of these concepts would help reduce the costs as well. I like the idea of having the bus loop moved to 117th Ave. as it also gives easier access to the Expo Centre instead of having to go down the stairs underground up the stairs (old elevator) to the back entrance of the Coliseum and take that over pass in. There's not even a store in there like Clareview or Central station. If they could have a overpass ala Southgate station, would be cool. Line ups at K-days/SF Expo might be problematic though. Space would be tight for lineups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sure we don't get a chance to repurpose the Coliseum and we lost the CFR and Northlands is no more and it's likely that K-Days is done as well but at least the new arena has a no compete clause. Guess that's worth it, right?
    Repurposing the Coliseum would be (I think) part of concept baseline. K-days (whatever the K means?) shouldn't be affected by any of these concepts. There are still events like the CFR and farm fair, monster trucks etc, that imo could still operate in the Coliseum building as part of Baseline, or even previously mentioned concepts in this thread, but not at the same time obviously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sure we don't get a chance to repurpose the Coliseum and we lost the CFR and Northlands is no more and it's likely that K-Days is done as well but at least the new arena has a no compete clause. Guess that's worth it, right?
    Repurposing the Coliseum would be (I think) part of concept baseline. K-days (whatever the K means?) shouldn't be affected by any of these concepts. There are still events like the CFR and farm fair, monster trucks etc, that imo could still operate in the Coliseum building as part of Baseline, or even previously mentioned concepts in this thread, but not at the same time obviously.
    emphasis added... repurposing the coliseum was explicitly excluded from consideration for any proponents to the rfp and is explicitly excluded from each and every concept. from my perspective, it won't stop the process from going ahead but i still believe it's a fatal flaw when it comes to ensuring that the process considered all of the options available. it's a pretty big option to take off the table before you even start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^What is a waste is leveling the site and expecting a different outcome than adding the exhibition lands to the growing list of City-led failures in redevelopment (e.g. Blatchford, Stadium Station, Fort Road, Quarters, North Edge, etc.).

    The ten day regional fair and exhibition has a larger paid attendance than any other festival and is not easily relocated. Morever, it is wrong to turn our backs on the 800,000+ Edmontonians for whom a midway is a highlight of their summer. Plus it is wrong to turn our backs on Edmonton's agricultural heritage. We've already lost the CFR. Now on top this Edmonton is prepared to lose Farm Fair and the other farm and livestock shows.
    Well unfortunately, that horse has left the barn, so-to-speak.

    It is what it is. No one should be shocked or surprised by any of this. The city turned it's back on Northlands, the coliseum and the site in general in order to get it wanted so now we have to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the situation and it's too late to change it now.
    agreed that we have to deal with the consequences but i'm not sure the process has or will result in what we deserve at the local or the municipal level.

    underwhelming choices is the most charitable conclusion i can arrive at when i look at these options.

    that starts with the precondition that the coliseum needs to be demolished and cannot be repurposed for anything. i know the official position is that horse has already left the barn but i still see no reason - other than the lack of political will - for it not to be reconsidered.

    it moves on to the impact that each of these options has on EXPO Hall as every one would seem to effectively deal it a death sentence as well.

    many of the "big ticket items" such as bringing 118th avenue to grade, eliminating the wayne gretzky couplet, relocating the lrt station seem to be already predetermined in the assessment matrix - i.e. the costs are included in some options that makes them more expensive, even though they could proceed without them, and they're not included in others where they may be perceived as adding value. it's as if all the costs are loaded into someone's least preferred options in order to make their preferred choice easier for other to commit to.

    so many of the important decisions have been predetermined here that one wonders whether this is yet another current example of gigo in action.

    i'm also not sure that using consultants from elsewhere helps in defining options that are able to respond to either local or municipal nuances...
    Well at least we're no longer talking about massive outdoor festival venues or any of that silliness that came about from the 2020 discussions.

    Expo Centre will likely suffer regardless I think. Which is too bad, it's an excellent venue but I doubt that the EDC is going to run it the way it should be and frankly the EDC is not a great facility operator in the first place. I question how much expansion space is really required there, the existing facility is quite massive so aside for eliminating the parking nothing's really being taken away. It will still be the venue of choice for most large scale tradeshows and expos, the Shaw is just not that great a facility for those types of things.

    Ultimately, when I lived in the area and was involved, the thing I heard most from area residents was "put it back the way it was". I think most of these plans achieve some level of success there, with the more connected "C" options being ideal. Nobody wants another Blatchford boondoggle, stalled development like Fort Road & the Quarters or literally just nothing as is the Rossdale Flats area, what's wrong with restoring the majority of those lands to what they were before the entire area was taken over for horse barns and trailer storage and a horse track and casino and acres of mostly unused parking ... primarily a residential community. That's what most of the folks I talked to wanted to see happen. I get the frustration over the coliseum but in the grand scheme it's actually a very small piece of the larger picture. Which is why I've always said, for any re-purposing of the site, start at the SW corner at 82st and 113th ave which already has excellent transit connections and shopping and amenities, and work north from there. That at least gives some time to figure out what to do with the coliseum (if there is even still an option there) and also provides proof to a very doubtful population that something can indeed happen there.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 19-09-2018 at 03:08 PM.
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    I was operating under the premise that Borealis's offer was still on life support and thus no reasonable offer (baseline) refused/see to private enterprise. I like Concordia's idea as well and the hotel concept as well. My previous post was in the spirit of the June 21st open house and we know what happened with that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^What is a waste is leveling the site and expecting a different outcome than adding the exhibition lands to the growing list of City-led failures in redevelopment (e.g. Blatchford, Stadium Station, Fort Road, Quarters, North Edge, etc.).

    The ten day regional fair and exhibition has a larger paid attendance than any other festival and is not easily relocated. Morever, it is wrong to turn our backs on the 800,000+ Edmontonians for whom a midway is a highlight of their summer. Plus it is wrong to turn our backs on Edmonton's agricultural heritage. We've already lost the CFR. Now on top this Edmonton is prepared to lose Farm Fair and the other farm and livestock shows.
    Well unfortunately, that horse has left the barn, so-to-speak.

    It is what it is. No one should be shocked or surprised by any of this. The city turned it's back on Northlands, the coliseum and the site in general in order to get it wanted so now we have to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the situation and it's too late to change it now.
    agreed that we have to deal with the consequences but i'm not sure the process has or will result in what we deserve at the local or the municipal level.

    underwhelming choices is the most charitable conclusion i can arrive at when i look at these options.

    that starts with the precondition that the coliseum needs to be demolished and cannot be repurposed for anything. i know the official position is that horse has already left the barn but i still see no reason - other than the lack of political will - for it not to be reconsidered.

    it moves on to the impact that each of these options has on EXPO Hall as every one would seem to effectively deal it a death sentence as well.

    many of the "big ticket items" such as bringing 118th avenue to grade, eliminating the wayne gretzky couplet, relocating the lrt station seem to be already predetermined in the assessment matrix - i.e. the costs are included in some options that makes them more expensive, even though they could proceed without them, and they're not included in others where they may be perceived as adding value. it's as if all the costs are loaded into someone's least preferred options in order to make their preferred choice easier for other to commit to.

    so many of the important decisions have been predetermined here that one wonders whether this is yet another current example of gigo in action.

    i'm also not sure that using consultants from elsewhere helps in defining options that are able to respond to either local or municipal nuances...
    Well at least we're no longer talking about massive outdoor festival venues or any of that silliness that came about from the 2020 discussions.

    Expo Centre will likely suffer regardless I think. Which is too bad, it's an excellent venue but I doubt that the EDC is going to run it the way it should be and frankly the EDC is not a great facility operator in the first place. I question how much expansion space is really required there, the existing facility is quite massive so aside for eliminating the parking nothing's really being taken away. It will still be the venue of choice for most large scale tradeshows and expos, the Shaw is just not that great a facility for those types of things.

    Ultimately, when I lived in the area and was involved, the thing I heard most from area residents was "put it back the way it was". I think most of these plans achieve some level of success there, with the more connected "C" options being ideal. Nobody wants another Blatchford boondoggle, stalled development like Fort Road & the Quarters or literally just nothing as is the Rossdale Flats area, what's wrong with restoring the majority of those lands to what they were before the entire area was taken over for horse barns and trailer storage and a horse track and casino and acres of mostly unused parking ... primarily a residential community. That's what most of the folks I talked to wanted to see happen. I get the frustration over the coliseum but in the grand scheme it's actually a very small piece of the larger picture. Which is why I've always said, for any re-purposing of the site, start at the SW corner at 82st and 113th ave which already has excellent transit connections and shopping and amenities, and work north from there. That at least gives some time to figure out what to do with the coliseum and also provides proof to a very doubtful population that something can indeed happen there
    At least council approved the Fort Edmonton park train upgrade.

    I worked on the Vision 2020 survey last year and respondents pretty much told me what your saying, keep it the way it was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    Farm Fair is held indoor in the Expo Centre, so doesn't need the giant parking lot that is Northlands 355 days of the year.
    Not sure where you think the animals are fed and watered in between shows? It's not in the Expo Centre where bedding and feeding livestock is not even allowed. Could be wrong but I don't think Farm Fair could operate without the adjoining livestock barns currently located between the racetrack and the LRT ROW.

    Not all of the parking lots and the area occupied by the racetrack/grandstand necessarily needs to be retained. While I am extremely dubious about yet another City-led redevelopment project, some areas could be offered for sale to private developers should there be any interested.

    But in the absence of viable alternative locations, the City should retain sufficient space on the grounds to accommodate a summer outdoor exhibition/midway, major farm shows and professional rodeos.

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    ^^^^

    not much there to disagree with as far as i'm concerned (or any other developers as far as i can determine).
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    How about we hold the rodeo in red deer. How about we hold farm fair in red deer. How about we attend the stampede and westerner days and turn our exhibition grounds into homes for rich folks, other housing, and a soccer field and some services. We could turn WGD into a regular city street so no one would even think there was ever anything happening or important events here. Just another neighbourhood. Oh, sorry, someone already has that idea.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 19-09-2018 at 04:49 PM.

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    Got the Insight survey today.
    I chose C1 as the best option.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Start fresh. Buy up land between the airport and the city, come up with the ideal design for whatever little can still be done outside of the arena contract then use it to justify a massive expenditure for running the LRT past it.

  49. #249

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    With any luck Edmontonians will cheap out and demand it be done quickly and planned by a private group and we'll end up with SF homes and inward parking lot multi-family buildings and strip malls with a Subway, BP's, dentist, etc.
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  50. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Got the Insight survey today.
    I chose C1 as the best option.
    Option 3 by far. I HIGHLY dislike how they're messing with the underpass and merging of gretzky.

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    Got my Insight survey in my email as well. I still like C2.
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    Exhibition Lands Survey

    As the City’s second largest urban infill site, in a premier location close to downtown, LRT and transit, the river valley, a vibrant park area and green space amenities, this is an opportunity made for Edmonton and its big ideas.

    We’re in the process of working with Edmontonians to figure out what the site’s future will be.

    Bordered by several established neighbourhoods, the Edmonton Exhibition Lands accounts for more than 200 acres of prime urban space that includes:

    • The Coliseum (permanently closed)
    • The Edmonton Expo Centre
    • Northlands Park Horse Racing and Casino (closing late 2018 )
    • Borden Park
    • The Coliseum LRT Station
    • Major roads such as Wayne Gretzky Drive

    Guiding Principles

    Through prior public and stakeholder engagement, a series of Guiding Principles were established. The Guiding Principles outline what we hope to achieve through the Exhibition Lands Redevelopment project.

    The Guiding Principles are:
    • Support neighbourhood, city and regional economic development.
    • Foster compact urban development.
    • Ensure responsible economic return on public investment.
    • Celebrate local history, heritage and cultures.
    • Advance the sustainability and resilience of our environment.
    • Support all transportation choices.
    • Incorporate viable and creative ideas for redevelopment to leverage the site’s scale, location and assets.
    • Contribute to the social, physical and mental well-being of residents and all Edmontonians.


    https://www.edmontoninsightcommunity...AF3AV8&so=true

    Sign up for updates from the Parkdale-Cromdale Community League here:

    https://www.parkdalecromdale.org/blo...concept-review
    Last edited by 240GLT; 28-09-2018 at 10:08 AM.
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    What would Mandel do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    What would Mandel do?
    Give the site to Katz.

  55. #255

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    “200 acres”

  56. #256

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    https://www.edmonton.ca/documents/PD...t_July2018.pdf


    APPENDIX A:
    RFEOI RESULTS SUMMARY
    The City of Edmonton Received 12 responses to its request for expression of ideas (RFEOI).
    ...


    APPENDIX B:
    WEB PORTAL SUBMISSIONS (56 TOTAL)
    ...


    UNSOLICITED PUBLIC IDEA SUBMISSIONS (38 TOTAL)
    The following list provides a snapshot of the ideas recieved by the City that were not included in the RFEOI or webportal, but that were also considered in the Idea Generation Results. These have been simplified and duplicates noted in brackets.


    dementia village
    hydroponics/cannabis production (2)
    repurpose coliseum for Edmonton Archives
    mini mall
    SPCA( including horses)
    turn Coliseum into conference centre
    set up a recycling plant that operates 24/7 that would also provide a space for workers to live in the building
    use the Coliseum for City of Edmonton warehouse or super giant flea market
    a large extremely affordable multi-level parking garage/ lot
    stampede grounds to have a major 7-10 day event held during K-Days
    film, television, and back lot studio production centres transportation hub (3)
    turn rexall place into greyhound terminal
    giant church
    convert coliseum into a shopping centre keep coliseum for recreation and events municipal airport (hotel & hangar concept)
    tiny house education centre and mini hockey rink bike parking lot
    production facility for TV or Minor League Facility Edmonton Space University
    bike lane at 122 ave across the Northlands campus
    giant parking garage or low income, Transit Oriented Development apartment housing complex with gardens / rink in the middle.
    remove roof of coliseum to build condos in centre and retail surrounding
    airground/outdoor festival site, high density TOD, retail grocery/ food desert, permanent indoor market, swap/sell reuse centre space, shared space for houses of worship, civic auditorium, moving 118 ave street festivals off street (keep the street open for business!), does UofA need more space, campus rec centre
    modernization of St. Alphonsus School or possible new school construction option in the study area
    building for comic expo, heritage festival, and museum called old Youth Television out of coliseum
    aquarium (2)
    Coliseum and Lands for Seniors Housing
    Keep the upper bowl stands with ice surface on level “3” and have 2 levels of renovations for the lower part of the building like maple leaf gardens.
    tech hub (2)
    NE Health Centre
    use coliseum for Golden Bears and NAIT program
    Last edited by KC; 30-09-2018 at 12:44 AM.

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    Reading through that pdf a number of people are actually suggesting that we get rid of the Expo centre, as if we don't need it. That would be dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Reading through that pdf a number of people are actually suggesting that we get rid of the Expo centre, as if we don't need it. That would be dumb.
    you mean dumber than getting rid of the coliseum?
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  59. #259

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    Of course. We have a replacement for the coliseum, not for the expo centre.

  60. #260

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    The proposal for student and housing was a great concept . It could have been nick named the 'The Atlantis ' if they built the outer ring as in the last iteration with another inner smaller circle of residents, shops, medical centres etc just for example. Did our city even entered discussion to the last iteration?
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  61. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Of course. We have a replacement for the coliseum, not for the expo centre.
    A replacement that came with a non-compete clause that directly led to this discussion of what do with the Northlands now that it's dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Of course. We have a replacement for the coliseum, not for the expo centre.
    A replacement that came with a non-compete clause that directly led to this discussion of what do with the Northlands now that it's dead.
    there were/are lots of potential uses that wouldn’t conflict with the non-compete clause.
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    Yuppers! The question is , does councils have any ounce of imagination other than, "... put a park in there..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Yuppers! The question is , does councils have any ounce of imagination other than, "... put a park in there..."
    it was council's decision to demolish the coliseum before sending administration out to look for "big ideas" that pretty much precluded administration being able to consider any potential reuse of the building. to do so would have put them in the position, at least in their interpretation, of acting counter to the decisions and direction of council, something they are not able to do. in my opinion as an outsider, council allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting a position/interpretation they never should have accepted.
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    I can only sigh Ken as what else can one do? Do we need to recruit alderman now is probably the next topic. It just boggles my mind that people step up wanting to be leaders but have no vission to lead. In the end, we have the blind leading the blind. I rather a real blind person leading as he/she would most likely have incredible imagination..
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    What happened to all the hard work we did with Vision 2020?
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    Funny nobody wants to bring this up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What happened to all the hard work we did with Vision 2020?
    Vision 2020 was a Northlands initiative. Now that Northlands has essentially ceased to exist and is no long the steward of the site that initiative is dead
    Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What happened to all the hard work we did with Vision 2020?
    Vision 2020 was a Northlands initiative. Now that Northlands has essentially ceased to exist and is no long the steward of the site that initiative is dead
    not to forget that vision 2020 was an initiative to try and make northlands viable using those lands to support enterprises that would contribute to northlands’ viability, not an initiative to determine the most viable uses on those lands for the neighbourhoods they are part of or for the city as a whole. having said that, for a century or more northlands was an integral part of our city’s fabric and the deterioration of that relationship to the point where it is now effectively non-existent is a shame and shameful for both parties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What happened to all the hard work we did with Vision 2020?
    Vision 2020 was a Northlands initiative. Now that Northlands has essentially ceased to exist and is no long the steward of the site that initiative is dead
    I remember commenting on that at council, making sure to bring the council back to reality from the Northlands love-in that was taking place.

    Iveson didn't like me quipping about the City Centre Airport. I sense a sore point there.

  71. #271

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    One could ask why 30 million of tax payers money went into a competition for Blatchford only for the city to decide they wanted the traditional ways of what developers here were already doing.


    This is my honest truth in opinion. This entire plot will be like this for at least 30 years. This area has to be turned around before people come. We have too many scars to deal with while expanding out too rapidly, so something has to give; and, unfortubately , the less desirable plot is the "give"
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 01-10-2018 at 12:57 PM.
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  72. #272

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    I agree that we continue to expand endlessly to the SW until people can see the mountains while all these TOD's and brownfield redevelopments languish.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  73. #273

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    Why do you think that is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What happened to all the hard work we did with Vision 2020?
    Vision 2020 was a Northlands initiative. Now that Northlands has essentially ceased to exist and is no long the steward of the site that initiative is dead
    Just speaking top of mind here, I'm sure the City of Edmonton had access to the Visions 2020 survey data.

    While I'm in agreement on most of what you said, I don't think Vision 2020 was just a Northlands self serving exercise. The survey I worked on had questions about the surrounding neighborhoods; like Montrose, Eastwood/Parkdale, Bellevue etc. It addressed such topics as noise level, traffic at major events if various proposals had been selected. The Vision's 2020 survey also addressed the economic impact of each proposal, even down to signage and amenities. Speaking of which new businesses had been developed in the area such as the new Tim Horton's across the street from the Coliseum among others. As for "Big ideas" Visions 2020 survey tried to address some of that as well.

    At this point yes, its kind of like the blind leading the blind but even the blind have access to service dogs

    Over the last couple of years we've seen potential uses for the Coliseum, some of them look pretty good. The Borealis proposal looks the best too me, even without a non compete clause.

    I like the "Atlantis" concept as well, and the Visions 2020 survey addressed the future of the coliseum even down to multiple ice surfaces but there was no mention about a non compete clause in the survey.

    As for the expo, the Hall D concept, was favoured by most respondents in the Visions 2020 survey. There should be a replacement plan for expo.

    Lots of scars and wounds to heal. Most of them imo are self inflicted, such as that $30 million mentioned over the years.

    The TOD at Stadium is underway while some at council want freeway shovels in the ground now. Sorry Tim, you we all know its not that simple.
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    Not sure if this was done out of spite, but Northlands' corporate office isn't even located in Edmonton anymore.

    Northlands has also relocated its corporate office to Sherwood Park which will broaden our reach in the Region and spur our Agri-business initiatives.
    Northlands also says it has an agreement with the City to keep K-Days and Farmfair in place for up to the next 10 years, presumably on the exhibition lands:

    Northlands is proud to maintain a continued partnership with the City of Edmonton. A five-year agreement for K-Days and Farmfair International is in place with an option to extend the agreement for an additional five years.
    See page 3 here: https://www.northlands.com/wp-conten...Report_Web.pdf

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    Northlands is but one service provided to organize and host K-Days. I'm sure there are plenty or organizations and businesses in Edmonton that could take on the challenge of hosting a midway and a week of activities.

    Midway does not have to be be on the Expo grounds either. Look at the big picture.

    Given city reports are now starting to cry poverty and fear of debt limit, maybe a good idea to sell off the expo lands once the ARP is adopted and watch the infill happen.

  77. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Why do you think that is?
    It is hard to pin point to one factor, but our mentality has not changed from the post war era is the biggest imo- the white picket fence dream. That mentality is starting to change as we have sprouted so far for our population. Hopefully, the debate over additional taxes to new infringements, going forward, will form different census. People are also finding out the difficulties for delivering services which is now pushing tax money beyond its limit while having to garner loans to subsidize the tax pool. It will only add more down the road...
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  78. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jackson View Post
    Northlands is but one service provided to organize and host K-Days. I'm sure there are plenty or organizations and businesses in Edmonton that could take on the challenge of hosting a midway and a week of activities.

    Midway does not have to be be on the Expo grounds either. Look at the big picture.

    Given city reports are now starting to cry poverty and fear of debt limit, maybe a good idea to sell off the expo lands once the ARP is adopted and watch the infill happen.
    Any idea where the midway could be hosted? You'd need a large, paved area with limited access and excellent transit connections and neighbours willing to put up with 10 days of noise.

  79. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Any idea where the midway could be hosted? You'd need a large, paved area with limited access and excellent transit connections and neighbours willing to put up with 10 days of noise.
    Ya, good luck finding another place like that. I'm all for redeveloping the old coliseum but I think we need to be careful not to get rid of assets we'll never be able to replace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jackson View Post
    Northlands is but one service provided to organize and host K-Days. I'm sure there are plenty or organizations and businesses in Edmonton that could take on the challenge of hosting a midway and a week of activities.

    Midway does not have to be be on the Expo grounds either. Look at the big picture.

    Given city reports are now starting to cry poverty and fear of debt limit, maybe a good idea to sell off the expo lands once the ARP is adopted and watch the infill happen.
    Any idea where the midway could be hosted? You'd need a large, paved area with limited access and excellent transit connections and neighbours willing to put up with 10 days of noise.
    almost anywhere else might be preferable that sterilizing where it is for 10 days a year. while it might be possible to integrate into something else, what’s there now is pretty insensitive to the neighboring communities for the other 355 days a year.
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  81. #281

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    But where would you have a spot that has sufficient space, is fully paved and isn't right next to a residential neighbourhood that would throw up NIMBY like you wouldn't believe?

    At least where is is is already a known entity to the people surrounding it. At least for a few years anyway.

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    I would guess there would be no where else in the city it could go.

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    There are probably lots of places, but none come to mind that are central or well serviced by transit, if at all, which is a problem.

    Still, that empty 350 days a year giant parking lot separating Highlands from the rest of Edmonton is also a problem.
    ... gobsmacked

  84. #284

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    My sister used to live in Highlands. Never had a problem getting to her place because of Northlands. 112 ave to 118 ave is 8 blocks or about 1 km. Hardly an impenetrable barrier.

    And Northland was hardly sitting fallow the rest of the year. There were numerous functions at the Expo Centre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    There are probably lots of places, but none come to mind that are central or well serviced by transit, if at all, which is a problem.

    Still, that empty 350 days a year giant parking lot separating Highlands from the rest of Edmonton is also a problem.
    How is it a problem? Highlands will still be the same distance from the rest of Edmonton.

  86. #286

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    Given Gretzky drive blocking the way between 112 and 118 the impact on Greater Highlands is pretty minimal.

    In a car you blink and miss it, and neither the #2 nor the #8 takes longer to arrive with northlands as an asphalt expanse than it would if it were a park or a neighbourhood.

    Only for an hour or so when a football game or major concert lets out is there any kind of delay; even k-days means delay of no more than one light cycle.
    There can only be one.

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    Fair 'nuff I guess, but if I lived in Highlands, sure would prefer some shopping, restos and neighbours over what's there now.

    As I've admitted, no fan of the midway, but do acknowledge that there's a significant population that does want it.
    ... gobsmacked

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    I live in Highlands and have been following the Northlands changeover for a couple of years, as I was on the community league board. While Highlands is a bit farther away, the future development of this site will definitely have an impact in our community. It will have a direct impact on Bellevue, Cromdale, Parkdale and Eastwood. Having an active site, with commercial, mixed use and active event space would be great for the community. We are suffering from lack of amenities, particularly a grocery store and bank. I'd welcome a good urban development in the area to re-ignite it. Leaving it vacant for any period of time is awful and will create problems for the surrounding areas.
    Passionate about small business, community & mature neighbourhoods. ED @ Old Strathcona Business Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What happened to all the hard work we did with Vision 2020?
    Vision 2020 was a Northlands initiative. Now that Northlands has essentially ceased to exist and is no long the steward of the site that initiative is dead
    not to forget that vision 2020 was an initiative to try and make northlands viable using those lands to support enterprises that would contribute to northlands’ viability, not an initiative to determine the most viable uses on those lands for the neighbourhoods they are part of or for the city as a whole. having said that, for a century or more northlands was an integral part of our city’s fabric and the deterioration of that relationship to the point where it is now effectively non-existent is a shame and shameful for both parties.
    Yes exactly, and also why I'm happy that this current exercise is a city-led initiative. Northlands did a lot for the city but an issue of contention has long been how the site interacts with the surrounding area and the perceptions- real or imagined- that come along with that. I'm most happy with the current consideration for residential development. Vision 2020 addressed this but the few apartment towers along the north edge of the park seemed like an afterthought.

    And yes it is shameful that an Edmonton institution has been allowed to wither away and die but that's how things go here in this city it seems, and no one ever learns. Edmonton is caught in a perpetual state of adolescence.
    Over promise and under deliver. It’s the most Edmonton thing you can do.

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    I still think the city should let RioCan take most of it and build a Northlands Common. There’s a shortage of shopping in that area of the city and everyone’s driving a ways to shop. Going to the clunky Walmart’s at Capilano and Abbottsfield is no picnic and otherwise it’s Manning Centre. It would save a lot of headache as these guys know how to get things going. All the other stuff is just pie in the sky just like Blatchford and a big waste of money.

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    ^ That's probably one of the best ideas anyone has had for this location post Coliseum area. It has lrt and bus access, plus 118th Ave and Wayne Gretzky drive.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I still think the city should let RioCan take most of it and build a Northlands Common. There’s a shortage of shopping in that area of the city and everyone’s driving a ways to shop. Going to the clunky Walmart’s at Capilano and Abbottsfield is no picnic and otherwise it’s Manning Centre. It would save a lot of headache as these guys know how to get things going. All the other stuff is just pie in the sky just like Blatchford and a big waste of money.
    "clunky Walmart’s at Capilano" has now been expanded and is a bigger SuperCentre.

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    I’ve been in it and it’s still the clunky old zellers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I’ve been in it and it’s still the clunky old zellers
    It was a Woolco and never a Zellers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ That's probably one of the best ideas anyone has had for this location post Coliseum area. It has lrt and bus access, plus 118th Ave and Wayne Gretzky drive.
    There is KWG Mall and Londonderry minutes away. Lots of big box stores along Manning and in Claireview. If RioCan wanted the site, they would have approached the COE a year ago.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ That's probably one of the best ideas anyone has had for this location post Coliseum area. It has lrt and bus access, plus 118th Ave and Wayne Gretzky drive.
    There is KWG Mall and Londonderry minutes away. Lots of big box stores along Manning and in Claireview. If RioCan wanted the site, they would have approached the COE a year ago.
    there were a number of approaches... i have no idea if one of them was from riocan but i also have no knowledge that one of them was not.

    my thoughts on the process that would have or would have precluded that interest, if any, are well known.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    [QUOTE=EdmTrekker;905739]
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I’ve been in it and it’s still the clunky old zellers[/QUOTE
    It was a Woolco and never a Zellers.
    Oh ya

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ That's probably one of the best ideas anyone has had for this location post Coliseum area. It has lrt and bus access, plus 118th Ave and Wayne Gretzky drive.
    There is KWG Mall and Londonderry minutes away. Lots of big box stores along Manning and in Claireview. If RioCan wanted the site, they would have approached the COE a year ago.
    Londonderry is a bit of a stretch for residence for example Montrose or even Highlands to get to. Clareview is closer but its still a drive. Manning is even further out then Clareview. My wife tells me the theatre there is nice. And if COE wanted to maintain a lrt transit stop at a Coliseum (in a post coliseum demo) station instead of across the street, that would be a real boon to a mall type situation. It seems like a no brainer. How's that for a future TOD?
    Last edited by envaneo; 04-10-2018 at 02:17 PM.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    By car there are all kinds of options that are reasonably close, enough so that I can't imagine there being enough bigger retailers who would be interested. For full anchors maybe superstore and Lowes. Maaaaybe. Everything else we already have within the normal radius.

    Even for those who don't drive it's easy to get to Abbotsfield Walmart or to Kingsway Mall by bus from all the close-by neighbourhoods, and Safeway and Save-on are already pretty much right there.
    There can only be one.

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    I saw mention elsewhere that there is a rumor floating around that Katz may be looking at purchasing the Coliseum and resurrecting the 6 ice sheet proposal, or some version of it. This is very much an unsubstantiated rumor at this point, but the source is someone fairly well connected.

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