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Thread: 30 km/h Playground Speed Limits Approved, Entire Residential Areas in Crosshairs Next

  1. #301
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    Right... because that's the kind of attitude that really helps solve problems. "Hey cyclists and pedestrians, CARS RULES! Stay off the roads if you want to live!!"

    "People die, get over it" - so you'd be totally cool with one of your family members or friends dies?

    I'd expect more from you.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  2. #302

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    Given the physics of the situation, VEHICLES DO RULE so it behooves non-car entities to be aware in their own self-interest. They stand to lose far more than vehicles on every impact.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  3. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Right... because that's the kind of attitude that really helps solve problems. "Hey cyclists and pedestrians, CARS RULES! Stay off the roads if you want to live!!"

    "People die, get over it" - so you'd be totally cool with one of your family members or friends dies?

    I'd expect more from you.
    There is no problem. The whole thing is more contrived nonsense from the incompetent anti-vehicle Administration and the usual social-engineer Councillors.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Given the physics of the situation, VEHICLES DO RULE so it behooves non-car entities to be aware in their own self-interest. They stand to lose far more than vehicles on every impact.
    I think that's the point the pedestrians and cyclists are making, and the reason they'd like to see speeds decreased.

    I was quite shocked by the number of councillors that didn't even know the roads that were being discussed for having a lower speed. I work from home, so I can't say how long it would change my work route, but I'd have 1-3 blocks of driving at 30km/h for most of my trips. My trips would have seconds added to them. I have no problem with them lowering the speeds.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  5. #305

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    You can ride a bicycle at 30 km/h, humans can sprint faster than 30 km/h. Driving a car at such slow speeds is ridiculous, if you are an environmentalist you should be ashamed.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  6. #306

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    how many photo-radar operators will it take to make this safety theatre meaningful?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  7. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    so you'd be totally cool with one of your family members or friends dies? I'd expect more from you.
    Everybody is going to die at some point, some by accident, some by disease, some by old age. If a family member dies, I will go to the funeral and pay my respect and continue on with my life. I am not going to over sensationalize it like the media did with the Humboldt hockey accident. I will not put random ribbons on fences, place a hockey stick on my porch. I will also not call for the removal of freedoms in an attempt prevent something like this from happening again.

    I expect more common sense from people like you.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    You can ride a bicycle at 30 km/h, humans can sprint faster than 30 km/h. Driving a car at such slow speeds is ridiculous, if you are an environmentalist you should be ashamed.
    ya most people can't sprint faster than 30 km/h.
    Most people can't even sustain riding at 30km/h.

    Not sure what being an environmentalist has anything to do with with this conversation.

  9. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    so you'd be totally cool with one of your family members or friends dies? I'd expect more from you.
    Everybody is going to die at some point, some by accident, some by disease, some by old age. If a family member dies, I will go to the funeral and pay my respect and continue on with my life. I am not going to over sensationalize it like the media did with the Humboldt hockey accident. I will not put random ribbons on fences, place a hockey stick on my porch. I will also not call for the removal of freedoms in an attempt prevent something like this from happening again.

    I expect more common sense from people like you.
    Ya, when your wife and/or kids gets run over, the next day will just be another day for you. Pathetic, cold, emotionless subhuman.

  10. #310

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    Ok Medwards, let's all drive around real slow in vehicles that weigh 600 pounds or more, no car pooling required either.

    Don't get me wrong, I be sad if people close to me pass away, just don't expect me to dwell on it excessively as those I know would wish for me to continue on with my life.

    You call me a pathetic cold subhuman, does that make you a soppy crybaby that can't handle reality?
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  11. #311
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    Thomas, how many blocks would this affect you in your daily commute?
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    so you'd be totally cool with one of your family members or friends dies? I'd expect more from you.
    Everybody is going to die at some point, some by accident, some by disease, some by old age. If a family member dies, I will go to the funeral and pay my respect and continue on with my life. I am not going to over sensationalize it like the media did with the Humboldt hockey accident. I will not put random ribbons on fences, place a hockey stick on my porch. I will also not call for the removal of freedoms in an attempt prevent something like this from happening again.

    I expect more common sense from people like you.
    So you're saying we, as human beings, shouldn't try to prevent any deaths from accidents or disease, because we're all going to die of old age?

    Also, I'm not sure what your "I expect more common sense from people like you" has to do with me. Maybe you could explain that?
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  13. #313

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    Something I'd like to see is how many kms of road this would affect. It'll take a lot of photo-radar operators to cover those often-sleepy kms, which I doubt would be profitable, which means the majority of the effect of lowered limits is squishy feel-good theatrics. Folks who drive slow already will drive slower, and the rest of us will ignore it in most cases since the likelihood of getting caught is minimal except around obvious enforcement areas like school fronts. Doing 50 on the backside of an empty soccer field? No big deal - who's going to put photo radar there?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  14. #314

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    The 30 km/h limit takes long enough for me to choose faster routes through residential streets away from playgrounds. Should every neighbourhood in the city be reconfigured so the major roads within them are away from playgrounds and schools?

    What kind of end game are you looking for regarding safety?

    A couple of decades ago measures were enacted to reduce tragedies by 10%, a couple of years ago measures were enacted to reduce tragedies by 2%, now were considering measures to reduce tragedies by a fraction of a percent. Where do we draw the line on costs vs benefits?
    Last edited by ThomasH; 29-04-2018 at 10:30 AM.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  15. #315

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    If we wanted to prevent all traffic deaths, the speed limit should be ZERO!

    Where is the scientific evidence and factual information in studies from other cities? What is the correlation between posted speed, actual average speed and traffic deaths? Why are 50kph, 40kph or 30kph the major numbers? What about 55, 45 or 35?

    I don't see any proof nor a cost/benefit ratio to make any plausible decisions based on merit. It is all opinion and politics.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  16. #316

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    I was driving this morning on 106 st. north of 34 ave. Used to be 50 and now it's 30 almost everywhere, which is completely ridiculous. I mean, there are already fences around those schools/fields. The road is two lanes in both directions, including a lane for parking. 30 is just stupid. It feels like being forced to drive 50 on the whitemud. This is a commuter's road. 111st is blocks away and so is gateway/calgary trail. This is the kind of thing that makes people hate city bureaucracy and the political process.
    Last edited by River Valley Green; 29-04-2018 at 10:55 AM.

  17. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Thomas, how many blocks would this affect you in your daily commute?
    Who cares? The entire policy is wrong with proof growing with the nonsensical 30 Kph so-called Playground Zones fiasco that is unfolding.

  18. #318
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    This is not an element most people have probably considered, and probably do not think it important, but I will throw it out there anyway. We should consider how this would impact bussing- public and school bussing particularly. Do you want your child on the bus for potentially another 40 minutes each day? The amount could vary a lot, but some kids already have a 1 hour+ ride each way going to and from school. Most sub/urban routes run 45min to a less common hour and a half, most of which is on roads that would be reduced to 30kmph. This means waking up earlier, and arriving home later- possibly as late as 5pm.
    Last edited by magu2k; 17-05-2018 at 11:42 PM.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by magu2k View Post
    This is not an element most people have probably considered, and probably do not think it important, but I will throw it out there anyway. We should consider how this would impact bussing- public and school bussing particularly. Do you want your child on the bus for potentially another 40 minutes each day? The amount could vary a lot, but some kids already have a 1 hour+ ride each way going to and from school. Most sub/urban routes run 45min to a less common hour and a half, most of which is on roads that would be reduced to 30kmph. This means waking up earlier, and arriving home later- possibly as late as 5pm.
    Please show your calculations for another 40 minutes of being on a bus per day.

  20. #320

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    How do you get an extra 40 minutes a day when school zones add maybe a few seconds more to travel through?

  21. #321

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    Some kids are on buses more that 60minutea a day. Assuming those buses are always travelling on neighbourhood streets and never collectors, and spend zero time at stops, lights, stop signs or slowing and all the route was reduced from 50km/hr to 30.
    It’s simple, easy and obviously incorrect.
    There can only be one.

  22. #322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Some kids are on buses more that 60minutea a day. Assuming those buses are always travelling on neighbourhood streets and never collectors, and spend zero time at stops, lights, stop signs or slowing and all the route was reduced from 50km/hr to 30.
    It’s simple, easy and obviously incorrect.
    As an aside, the bigger problem with school busses I’d say is; one, not the speed but the crowding of school busses and the the risk to lives right in from of the schools and teo, the risk to health in allowing buses to sit idling and blowing out diesel emissions as all the kids line up beside them and walk past multiple buses all idling in front of the schools.

    Then there’s all there’s all the parents in their vehicles coming and going. I would guess that the accident risk is highest right in front of schools due to parking design, not speed. Then I would guess that the pollution levels and the risk to kids health due to busses and SUVs at the sidewalks in front of schools is several multiples higher than say just a block away.


    Anyway I’ve seen school busses blow right through the large-clearly-devoid-of-kids playground zones.


    I’m back with supporting opinion.


    Note that the EPA blames the parents and not the school busss.


    Idling school buses are poisoning our children's air

    By Katherine Martinko

    In their quest to create healthy, secure environments for children, many school have overlooked one of the most toxic dangers of all.

    Schools have made many steps toward improving children’s safety and health, such as reducing the number of vending machines... But there is one area that most schools have overlooked completely, and that is the air pollution caused by idling school buses and other vehicles.

    Pick-up and drop-off times create clouds of invisible yet toxic diesel fumes. With asthma being the most common chronic disease found in American children nowadays, this is a serious problem and one that should not be ignored. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency explains:

    “Idling vehicles contribute to air pollution and emit air toxins, which are pollutants known or suspected to cause cancer or other serious health effects. Monitoring at schools has shown elevated levels of benzene, formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and other air toxics during the afternoon hour coinciding with parents picking up their children. Children’s lungs are still developing, and when they are exposed to elevated levels of these pollutants, children have an increased risk of developing asthma, respiratory problems and other adverse health effects.”

    Another study has found that idling vehicles do create serious pollution: “The concentration of air pollutants near schools may significantly exceed community background levels, particularly in the presence of idling school buses.”

    Streetsblog USA believes that...”



    https://www.treehugger.com/health/sc...ool-buses.html
    Last edited by KC; 18-05-2018 at 07:38 AM.

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    How do you get an extra 40 minutes a day when school zones add maybe a few seconds more to travel through?
    knock knock what year are you in?

    Currently most school zones are 30kmph. I am talking about the switch to where all or most residential roads become 30kmph. While I don't have an exact breakdown, I will work it out over the weekend if I get time, but you are talking about a roughly 2/5ths decrease in speed in most areas, then, which is 40%. So while It very well may not come out to 40 minutes, you may notice I said *as much as*, as school bus routes vary in length and obviously different areas have different factors. But, I can say for sure, many many students are on a school bus for over 2 hours a day already and many more approaching but less than 2 hours.

  24. #324

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    medwards will advocate lower car speeds at all costs but when its an lrt killing someone he'll blame the person/victim, not the speed of the vehicle.

    Some lives are worth more for medwards... or maybe its the fact the pedestrian was killed on the north side as to why the speeds of those vehicles dont matter.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    medwards will advocate lower car speeds at all costs but when its an lrt killing someone he'll blame the person/victim, not the speed of the vehicle.

    Some lives are worth more for medwards... or maybe its the fact the pedestrian was killed on the north side as to why the speeds of those vehicles dont matter.
    I see. I don't think anyones life is worth less or more regardless of whether you are from south or north of the river, WEM or Abbotsfield Mall. donair or burger, oilfield or Oiler, Car-user or non-car user, I try to hate everyone equally.

  26. #326

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    I agree. A life is just as valuable regardless of age, race, gender or where they live.

    Apparently medwards thinks a pedestrian killed on railroad track is less of a concern then other pedestrians who die. Their life doesn't matter as much to him.

    Not sure why.

  27. #327

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    In all fairness to this whole argument, I would wager the majority of accidents happen due to the driver or pedestrian not paying attention to what they are doing. I think we all know drivers and the whole distracted driver thing so lets not cover that. I will focus on pedestrians as it is something I have noticed. I don't know what they teach in school when it comes to crossing the street but assuming that a vehicle will stop for you even though you are in a marked cross walk is a foolish thing I've seen many pedestrians do. They just cross, they don't look to make sure all cars have stopped or noticed them other than the first one in the closest lane to them, they just walk across heads usually down looking at their phone or whatever else. It's like they assume they are surrounded by some magic forcefield while the cross the street in a crosswalk. How are you going to jump back if some car decides to not stop if you don't even see them coming.

    I don't know, when I take the dog out for a walk I'm watching all the cars while I cross. Just cause the guy in the first lane stopped doesn't mean the guy in the second lane texting on his phone will. Just cause you had the right of way doesn't mean squat when you're dead. Everybody has to take personal responsibility; more so, for yourself and ensuring your safety because the world by and large could give a rats *** whether you live or die so it's up to you to keep vigilant over your own safety.

  28. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post
    In all fairness to this whole argument, I would wager the majority of accidents happen due to the driver or pedestrian not paying attention to what they are doing. I think we all know drivers and the whole distracted driver thing so lets not cover that. I will focus on pedestrians as it is something I have noticed. I don't know what they teach in school when it comes to crossing the street but assuming that a vehicle will stop for you even though you are in a marked cross walk is a foolish thing I've seen many pedestrians do. They just cross, they don't look to make sure all cars have stopped or noticed them other than the first one in the closest lane to them, they just walk across heads usually down looking at their phone or whatever else. It's like they assume they are surrounded by some magic forcefield while the cross the street in a crosswalk. How are you going to jump back if some car decides to not stop if you don't even see them coming.

    I don't know, when I take the dog out for a walk I'm watching all the cars while I cross. Just cause the guy in the first lane stopped doesn't mean the guy in the second lane texting on his phone will. Just cause you had the right of way doesn't mean squat when you're dead. Everybody has to take personal responsibility; more so, for yourself and ensuring your safety because the world by and large could give a rats *** whether you live or die so it's up to you to keep vigilant over your own safety.

    ^ Exactly. Lowering the speed limit only amplifies this problem.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  29. #329

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    The horrible problem of people feeling safe in their neighbourhoods. It must be stopped!!!!
    There can only be one.

  30. #330

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    I want this to be clear to everybody, street level crosswalks no matter what kind they are, are NOT safe zones. Period. If you want pedestrians to be safe, build elevated or underground street crossings.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  31. #331
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    Well that's a ridiculous statement. There certainly is a middle ground between what you're suggesting and the status quo.

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I want this to be clear to everybody, street level crosswalks no matter what kind they are, are NOT safe zones. Period. If you want pedestrians to be safe, build elevated or underground street crossings.
    Yes, this is a great idea. Elevated crossings everywhere! It will surely solve all the driving problems.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Well that's a ridiculous statement. There certainly is a middle ground between what you're suggesting and the status quo.
    Yes, there is a middle ground. It's called 'pay friggin' attention' for everyone concerned.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  34. #334

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    More driver training is necessary.

    Safe Driving: The Defensive Driver (1955) Rare Driving School Educational, Coronet Films
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rPX11ZJ4REg



    The ABC's of...Defensive Driving Tactics
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g5c7JgIUcFY



    For several years now I’ve been looking online for one of the driver ed films I had to watch when taking driver ed at AMA. As I recall, an old B&W film with and old guy in an old 1960s car that tapped his horn honked at EVERYTHING. (In a convertible and wearing a hat I recall.)
    Last edited by KC; 28-05-2018 at 07:07 AM.

  35. #335

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    Worlds Best Creative Road Safety TV Ads Commercials

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ajR7dq2T8

  36. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    More driver training is necessary.

    Safe Driving: The Defensive Driver (1955) Rare Driving School Educational, Coronet Films
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rPX11ZJ4REg



    The ABC's of...Defensive Driving Tactics
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g5c7JgIUcFY



    For several years now I’ve been looking online for one of the driver ed films I had to watch when taking driver ed at AMA. As I recall, an old B&W film with and old guy in an old 1960s car that tapped his horn honked at EVERYTHING. (In a convertible and wearing a hat I recall.)
    I remember that too! Hilarious - old guy with a hat driving a boat of a convertible honking at everything that moved.

  37. #337

  38. #338

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    Can’t believe the signage used. On the TV news tonight they showed streets just blanketed with signs. One after another up and down both sides of the street. So what the heck is happening with the City Council, the administration and the staff? Have the managers and employees been so browbeaten by Council that they just unquestioningly follow their marching orders, or do they have a vendetta against City Council, or has everyone just turned into a bunch of mindless morons? Isn’t anyone trying to stop everyone especially City Council from looking like total morons?


    Scroll through the photos shown in this article!
    Residents and drivers question massive amount of traffic signs on south Edmonton street - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

    “Within a 15-block distance, there are about 220 different signs — from playground zone notifications and speed limits to bike lane advisories, traffic advisories and more.”

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4662873/s...traffic-signs/
    Last edited by KC; 11-12-2018 at 11:57 PM.

  39. #339

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    Just a sign of the times...

    ...sigh...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  40. #340

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    Well, at least they’ve been stopped in their tracks and are now yielding to the will of the people.

  41. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Canít believe the signage used. On the TV news tonight they showed streets just blanketed with signs. One after another up and down both sides of the street. So what the heck is happening with the City Council, the administration and the staff? Have the managers and employees been so browbeaten by Council that they just unquestioningly follow their marching orders, or do they have a vendetta against City Council, or has everyone just turned into a bunch of mindless morons? Isnít anyone trying to stop everyone especially City Council from looking like total morons?


    Scroll through the photos shown in this article!
    Residents and drivers question massive amount of traffic signs on south Edmonton street - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

    ďWithin a 15-block distance, there are about 220 different signs ó from playground zone notifications and speed limits to bike lane advisories, traffic advisories and more.Ē

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4662873/s...traffic-signs/
    I grew up in Allendale on 64th Avenue just west of Allendale School from 1966 to 1978 and then bought a house in 1990 and lived on 66 Avenue for 16 years. I helped in the first fight against so-called "traffic-calming" measures that the City attempted to impose on the residents in the 1990s. After I moved to Twin Brooks (yes I was involved in opposing the idiotic test for lower speed limits community-wide) and then my father sold the family house to move to a condo in Yellowbird, I stopped and watched the City use its faulty methodology, pander to the anti-vehicle crowd and methodically destroy 106 Street for the residents of Allendale and Queen Alexandra.

    For those of you who don't know, access to Allendale School from 109 Street was usually along 64th Avenue so we had plenty of cars go by. We still managed to play pee wee and regular football in the summer and ball hockey in the winter on the road on 64th Avenue using a simple solution: someone would call "car" and we would get off the street until it passed. We also crossed at corners to get to School. Apparently these simple solutions escape the comprehension of today's helicopter parents.

    I went to Strathcona Composite High School and walked along 106 Street to get there. Not once did I ever get driven there by my father.

    As far as I know the "methodology" used has not changed. The City only directly canvasses people who live on a road like 106 Street, and then for only a block in on the intersecting Avenues. People who might actually drive on the road such as, for example, people who live west of 107 Street all the way to 109 Street or east of 105A Street to 104 Street are not directly canvassed.

    We have already seen the result of this kind of stupidity in the ill-fated directional closure of 106 Street by the Mt. Pleasant Cemetery when that small group of homeowners on the east side of 106 Street convinced the mental midgets in the City to restrict traffic on the hill resulting in the diversion of thousands of vehicles through the heart of the south east Pleasantview community so that commuters could access 51 Avenue and as well the Whitemud Freeway entrance at 106 Street. After being bombarded with complaints, the 3-year 'trial' was abandoned in the first year.

  42. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Canít believe the signage used. On the TV news tonight they showed streets just blanketed with signs. One after another up and down both sides of the street. So what the heck is happening with the City Council, the administration and the staff? Have the managers and employees been so browbeaten by Council that they just unquestioningly follow their marching orders, or do they have a vendetta against City Council, or has everyone just turned into a bunch of mindless morons? Isnít anyone trying to stop everyone especially City Council from looking like total morons?


    Scroll through the photos shown in this article!
    Residents and drivers question massive amount of traffic signs on south Edmonton street - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

    ďWithin a 15-block distance, there are about 220 different signs ó from playground zone notifications and speed limits to bike lane advisories, traffic advisories and more.Ē

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4662873/s...traffic-signs/
    It's an old problem that's getting worse. I think it's to take a look at cleaning this mess up. For starters, do we really need signs giving directions to churches, the airport, and WEM? We have being using GPS for almost 20 years... that's how people navigate now. Or they look up the location on Google maps before setting out.

  43. #343

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    The new bike lanes are a fertile source of sign pollution. Along the 102 and 105 Ave routes there are at least 2 signs per half-block. Street with traffic-calming blubs are likewise, with every bulb at every block contributing a sign.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  44. #344
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    There is obviously a city employee that loves making signs.

  45. #345
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    It's kind of heart breaking the mess the new bike lane signage requirements have made of 102 Ave. Used to be a pretty street in the summer. The number of signs is ridiculous.

  46. #346

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    I suspect itís best to be overly cautious at first and then liberalize as people and society become accustom to the change.

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