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Thread: Joe Ceci announces Relaxed Regulations for Patio Spaces

  1. #1
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    Default Joe Ceci announces Relaxed Regulations for Patio Spaces

    "Alberta restaurants and bars thirsty for more patio space may soon be quenched.

    Minister of Finance Joe Ceci announced relaxed regulations for patio spaces on Sunday, allowing businesses to define their patios by using planters or other decorative items like furniture.

    In the past, restaurants and bars had to build a three-foot-high enclosure"

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...erta-1.4196906

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    I thought the city decided that, good for patios though..

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    ^AGLC/AbGov

    Indeed and very positive. We need to help facilitate patios, not regulate them to the point where people don't bother.

    Hopefully this will also speed up the overall approval process and flexibility of use throughout the year.
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    Edmonton Sun article on the patios. One thing noted is you can have the patio located away from the primary licensed facility itself; the example in Calgary was a rooftop patio a couple of floors above the licensed venue proper.

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    One gentleman at a patio was on the news last night, he said it might become unmanageable at night( there was a no exit gate, that would now be allowed or something) people could come and go as they wanted..People do get very drunk sometimes, so I could see his POV, I just cant express it very well

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    Yeah, Top_Dawg can totally see his point.

    This could easily turn into an absolute ***** show at some of the toilets Top_Dawg sees around town.

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    Way to go, Joe! Maybe it's his Euro heritage kicking in.
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    Finally, a sensible move from this government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Yeah, Top_Dawg can totally see his point.

    This could easily turn into an absolute ***** show at some of the toilets Top_Dawg sees around town.
    Well hopefully management and owners will figure out what's right for their patrons. I prefer a cooler patio season, and the best one is going to be our new houses patio, beer and wings and good friends

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    I wonder if Ceci ran up a huge bar tab?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    And left it for his kids, grandkids, and great grandkids to pay.


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    Fantastic move. Let's hope CoE municipal bylaws follow suit. This opens a lot of doors.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Montreal has done this for years



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    Most of the world has done this for years, decades, centuries and it works just fine.


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    To those developers / planners out there...

    Will the recommended "frontage zone" dimensions need to be increased from the existing Complete Streets Guidelines to facilitate more comfortable patio arrangements?
    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...s_05062013.pdf

    Seems to me that this is likely, or should influence guidelines to change, and that this comes with additional tough decisions and cost e.g. lane reductions in certain areas like Jasper Ave and Whyte Ave. In the end, this is a step in the right direction.

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    ^Exactly. English Canada has, mysteriously, had some of the most restrictive laws in most the world (where drinking alcohol is permitted) relating to where and when you can drink.

    The relaxed law is certainly an improvement. That being said it would be even better if there was zero requirement for a physical barrier just like the above examples.
    Go down a few dark alleys.

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    it would be nice if they would also allow the patio to be on the far side of the side walk. Being next to traffic is less than ideal but in locations with heavy pedestrian traffic detouring peds into the sidewalk extension around the patio like they do now creates a bottleneck especially for wheelchairs & strollers.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    ^Exactly. English Canada has, mysteriously, had some of the most restrictive laws in most the world (where drinking alcohol is permitted) relating to where and when you can drink.

    The relaxed law is certainly an improvement. That being said it would be even better if there was zero requirement for a physical barrier just like the above examples.


    No physical barrier ?

    *** you've gotta be kidding.

    Have you seen the boorish warthogs that occupy the vast majority of patios around town ?

    Can you imagine not having those disgusting creatures penned in at places like Kelly's ?

    Or the Needle ?

    Or Malt and Mortar ?

    No thanks.

    In fact Top_Dawg would advocate for increased barriers, such as a requirement to have all patios glassed in at the very least.

    The risk of these repulsive blobfish getting into the general population is too great.



    Pandemic waiting to happen.

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    Lol says Top Dawg?!?!?! Who hacked your account?

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    hacked his account? Looks like a very normal top_dawggie post to me.

    Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy? <Pats Top Dawg on the head>

    No, no down boy, down. Stop humping the furniture! Bad dog BAAAAD!

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    Yes, but I don't know many dogs/dawgs who wants to be enclosed in a pen while drinking outta their bowl. The grammar and language etc is definitely Top Dawg, I just found the opinion surprising for that mutt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    ^Exactly. English Canada has, mysteriously, had some of the most restrictive laws in most the world (where drinking alcohol is permitted) relating to where and when you can drink.

    The relaxed law is certainly an improvement. That being said it would be even better if there was zero requirement for a physical barrier just like the above examples.
    In superficial appearance the relaxation would appear to be a positive. But this in a jurisdiction with some of the worst driving incidents found anywhere and several where drivers have killed people, including children, sitting in a patio or even inside a restaurant.

    Requiring less barrier is at potential odds with the risk of drivers that do inexplicable things. This jurisdiction probably leads the western world in per capita incidents of vehicles hitting stationary objects, parked cars, pedestrians, cyclists, patrons etc.

    What would be far better is a relaxation on every road needing to be a road. For a longtime Whyte Avenue should have been turned into a pedestrian only district, with alternative roadways provided. 104st should of course be off limits to vehicles and just a pedestrian mall. Not every street and avenue needs to be for the benefit of vehicles. Lets have some for people where vehicles are outlawed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    ^Exactly. English Canada has, mysteriously, had some of the most restrictive laws in most the world (where drinking alcohol is permitted) relating to where and when you can drink.

    The relaxed law is certainly an improvement. That being said it would be even better if there was zero requirement for a physical barrier just like the above examples.
    In superficial appearance the relaxation would appear to be a positive. But this in a jurisdiction with some of the worst driving incidents found anywhere and several where drivers have killed people, including children, sitting in a patio or even inside a restaurant.

    Requiring less barrier is at potential odds with the risk of drivers that do inexplicable things. This jurisdiction probably leads the western world in per capita incidents of vehicles hitting stationary objects, parked cars, pedestrians, cyclists, patrons etc.

    What would be far better is a relaxation on every road needing to be a road. For a longtime Whyte Avenue should have been turned into a pedestrian only district, with alternative roadways provided. 104st should of course be off limits to vehicles and just a pedestrian mall. Not every street and avenue needs to be for the benefit of vehicles. Lets have some for people where vehicles are outlawed.
    Agreed, or at the very least make them more like RHW where the design discourages large amount of vehicle traffic and encourages more pedestrians.

  24. #24

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    Let's see the province put their money where their mouth is and get a friggin massive patio at the Federal building for fak sakes.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    There were/are? plans for a restaurant on the SW corner of the Federal Building with a patio overlooking the dome. There was even an request for expressions of interest/qualifications a few years ago with little interest apparently.

    I am of the belief that a classic cafe would do well there with mid-ranged options, wine, beer, ice cream etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mnugent View Post
    ^Exactly. English Canada has, mysteriously, had some of the most restrictive laws in most the world (where drinking alcohol is permitted) relating to where and when you can drink.

    The relaxed law is certainly an improvement. That being said it would be even better if there was zero requirement for a physical barrier just like the above examples.
    In superficial appearance the relaxation would appear to be a positive. But this in a jurisdiction with some of the worst driving incidents found anywhere and several where drivers have killed people, including children, sitting in a patio or even inside a restaurant.

    Requiring less barrier is at potential odds with the risk of drivers that do inexplicable things. This jurisdiction probably leads the western world in per capita incidents of vehicles hitting stationary objects, parked cars, pedestrians, cyclists, patrons etc.

    What would be far better is a relaxation on every road needing to be a road. For a longtime Whyte Avenue should have been turned into a pedestrian only district, with alternative roadways provided. 104st should of course be off limits to vehicles and just a pedestrian mall. Not every street and avenue needs to be for the benefit of vehicles. Lets have some for people where vehicles are outlawed.
    I tend to agree with relaxing the purpose of some of our roadways.

    I understand that many wouldn't like a change to some of our more popular roadways (Whyte, Jasper), but changing the philosophy of their purpose could prove to be very beneficial. There is a lot of space that defines our roadways and curbs today and it's up to us to redefine that if we feel it's necessary. I don't think it makes much sense in allowing more patio space onto curbed areas unless there is a subsequent shift in how the roadway is intended to operate and be designed as well (to maintain a reasonable level of safety to pedestrians and those in patio areas). For example, if Whyte / Jasper are 4 traffic lanes across with additional parking on either side, could we get away with removing one lane, or two, to allow for construction that may beautify the street, provide additional safety for patio areas and pedestrians, and lower the overall speed on these roadways and make them more of a "Place" and not a "Link" as defined in the Edmonton Complete Streets Guideline: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...s_05062013.pdf

  27. #27

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    The Taste of Edmonton is having a patio-esque space called the Taste Piazza; with the new regulations, minors are allowed in this licensed space as long as they are accompanied by an adult, and people can flow freely in and out with food from the vendors outside the Piazza area.

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    Indeed and most excellent. Evolution!
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    Could you zone all of the Folk Festival grounds like the Piazza, with appropriate ropes/shrubs/fencing? I can't imagine too many unaccompanied minors would attend the festival anyways, so that might work make the whole grounds licensed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Could you zone all of the Folk Festival grounds like the Piazza, with appropriate ropes/shrubs/fencing? I can't imagine too many unaccompanied minors would attend the festival anyways, so that might work make the whole grounds licensed.
    This would conflict with ALGC and Liquor service statutes as well as Proserve policy that facilities need monitoring of patrons consuming alcohol, where alcohol is served. Allowing the whole grounds to be imbibing areas would not pass those standards.

    That said Pro sports and Concert entertainment manages to skirt those standard regulations by way of stated exemptions, especially in the case of concerts, that are dark, and with people able to drink and not be observed at all. My own take is that these endeavors are such money makers that rules tend to be bent for those as they are in other jurisdictions.

    Should mention as well that Sports and Concert Entertainment here didn't always have alcohol service, just in the last couple decades. Interestingly other than Commonwealth, Rogers Place, Rexall, and the Baseball park no other entertainment or sports facilities I am aware of allow people to take drinks to the seats. A lot of entertainment facilities like the Jube or Citadel or Winspear require to drink in the service area or foyer.

    So the application and who gets relaxed rules and who does not is muddy as hell.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2017 at 04:26 PM.
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  31. #31

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    ^
    What would it take to give Folk Fest the same exemptions as an Eskimo's game at Commonwealth? You have people getting served, and then returning to their seats with beverages, drinking in the light of day, with minors around.

  32. #32

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    btw the Taste Piazza link doesn't appear to be working. I'm not against this concept, and particularly for the Taste of Edmonton, but what this means now is that every other festival will want the same flexing of usual policy.

    I should mention as well I'm not completely aware what the "new regulations" are or what has changed. I know from the thread that patio regs have changed but I'm not aware that liquor service regs have substantially changed.

    The one thing is if drinks can be taken outside the drinking area this will result in more people imbibing that would not normally be served and overserved. One primary reason that drinking premise observation occurs is so that people do not buy drinks for other people who are either impaired, underage.
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    ^
    What would it take to give Folk Fest the same exemptions as an Eskimo's game at Commonwealth? You have people getting served, and then returning to their seats with beverages, drinking in the light of day, with minors around.
    Who knows. I'm just describing the policies and the present variances as far as I know them to be. I do know proserve regs in and out, several people in my family are required to have the licence, and I know there are exemptions for some nature of events and facilities but its less clear how that is defined. It seems as if double standards exist. But again pro sports and big ticket entertainment are huge money events. One possible difference is that they have ongoing liquor licences, whereas festivals and events apply for temporary liquor licences afairc. I believe there could be some variance in what is allowed in ongoing vs temp Liquor licences.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The one thing is if drinks can be taken outside the drinking area this will result in more people imbibing that would not normally be served and overserved. One primary reason that drinking premise observation occurs is so that people do not buy drinks for other people who are either impaired, underage.
    For the Taste Piazza, its the opposite of what you're saying. It's a licensed area you bring food to, and stay to drink, not a place you bring drinks out of. The new patio regs allow minors in this giant patio with an adult present, allow multiple ingress/egress points, and allow the area to be demarked less obtrusively, with ropes or planters instead of a full wall. It should make the licensed area feel more like part of the festival grounds, and less like the fortified, forbidden enclave of a beer garden, while maintaining a single place to observe imbibing and have the servers monitor levels to prevent over serving.

  35. #35

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    I talked two a waitress who was prepping the Urban Tavern to open yesterday. She said that its pure coincidence their patio began construction on the day of the patio regulation change announcement. The patio is compliant with the old regs. She said she personally preferred having the separation from the sidewalks. The wooden portion of the barrier are planters that will be filled in later.
    I talked two a waitress who was prepping the Urban Tavern to open yesterday. She said that its pure coincidence their patio began construction on the day of the patio regulation change announcement. The patio is compliant with the old regs. She said she personally preferred having the separation from the sidewalks. The wooden portion of the barrier are planters that will be filled in later.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The one thing is if drinks can be taken outside the drinking area this will result in more people imbibing that would not normally be served and overserved. One primary reason that drinking premise observation occurs is so that people do not buy drinks for other people who are either impaired, underage.
    For the Taste Piazza, its the opposite of what you're saying. It's a licensed area you bring food to, and stay to drink, not a place you bring drinks out of. The new patio regs allow minors in this giant patio with an adult present, allow multiple ingress/egress points, and allow the area to be demarked less obtrusively, with ropes or planters instead of a full wall. It should make the licensed area feel more like part of the festival grounds, and less like the fortified, forbidden enclave of a beer garden, while maintaining a single place to observe imbibing and have the servers monitor levels to prevent over serving.
    You mistook what I stated. I meant that as per ALGC regulations the server or bar staff would not be able to note if drinks were being resupplied to somebody else if the consumption area included areas that are "Out of the line of sight of the service staff" By making the entire Taste of Edmonton that area that what would occur. Meaning that even underaged could be drinking within that area if somebody else was getting their drinks. Basically that's what I witnessing at Rogers Place during the 5 dollar out of town playoff game viewing parties. It quickly became underage drinker heaven for highschool kids.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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