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Thread: Wildrose and PC merger talk

  1. #1

    Default Wildrose and PC merger talk

    I can't believe I haven't seen people talking about this here today:


    Alberta's Wildrose, PCs agree to create new United Conservative Party
    First leader of new party to be elected Oct. 28

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rger-1.4121473

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I can't believe I haven't seen people talking about this here today:


    Alberta's Wildrose, PCs agree to create new United Conservative Party
    First leader of new party to be elected Oct. 28

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rger-1.4121473
    Boring administrative news at the moment. Will see what they offer that would be any different than the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I can't believe I haven't seen people talking about this here today:


    Alberta's Wildrose, PCs agree to create new United Conservative Party
    First leader of new party to be elected Oct. 28

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rger-1.4121473

    There's a lot of buzz on other forums what great news! Then there is this....http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/kenne...-tax-1.3420190


    Love it!!!!!

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    What a joke. Couple of fringe leaders with nothing but backwards ideas. Hopefully the Red Deer Meeting that was held with the Red Tories and the Alberta Party brings some common sense to Alberta politics.

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    Goodbye NDP... there was talk Notley could call a snap election before the right united, but they would have even lost that, so just hanging on by a thread / trying to ram through as much pinko damage to our economy as they can before they are gone.

    I hope Jean wins the leadership. Good news is under the carbon tax will be gone gone gone in a few years time, even if Kenny wins:

    Right after announcing the potential merger of Alberta’s Wildrose and Progressive Conservative parties, Progressive Conservative Leader Jason Kenney took aim at Ottawa, saying that he would be willing to sue the federal government if it tries to impose a carbon tax on his oil-rich province.

    “If I’m leading a Conservative government, bill number one of our first term of the legislature in the summer of 2019 would be the Carbon Tax Repeal Act,” the former federal Conservative cabinet minister told CTV Power Play on Thursday.

    ...

    “If Justin Trudeau then tries to impose his federal carbon tax on us, we will link arms with Premier Brad Wall and sue the federal government for violating what we believe is provincial jurisdiction,” Kenney said. “Our declaration today says that this is a party that is loyal to a united Canada but will stand up and defend Alberta’s interests and areas of constitutional sovereignty and jurisdiction.”
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/kenne...-tax-1.3420190
    Last edited by moahunter; 19-05-2017 at 08:41 AM.

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    Jean will probably win, but I'm happy with either , as leader.They have been voting the same, so it makes sense to be one party. I see the NDP back in opposition, and I'm very happy at that thought!

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    It will depend on what the moderates do. If they can help shape this new party, then they'll be the next government. If they can't and they leave, then it's a toss up and we'll probably see a minority govt. Possibly with the NDP leading and the new moderate party forming some kind of alliance with them.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I can't believe I haven't seen people talking about this here today:


    Alberta's Wildrose, PCs agree to create new United Conservative Party
    First leader of new party to be elected Oct. 28

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rger-1.4121473
    Boring administrative news at the moment. Will see what they offer that would be any different than the past.
    They've announced their intention to unite. It needs to be voted on, and requires 75% approval from Wildrose members and 50% from PC members to be ratified. It's likely to pass, but not guaranteed. Then there's a leadership run.

    Notley won't call an early election. She needs more time for the economy to recover and for their policies to take effect. Nobody's making any noise about the carbon tax anymore since it's had virtually no effect on people's day to day lives and hasn't caused the sky to fall as many predicted.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    I like Mr. Jean personally, but I don't like some of the things his party has stood for historically.
    I used to like the PC party, but their last couple of leaders kind of soured me on them.
    While I don't think an NDP government is quite Armageddon, I'm not sure I want to give them a second term.
    I'll reserve judgement for the time being. As mentioned - nothing is finalized and the election is a ways out yet.
    Last edited by Darkwalker; 19-05-2017 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Grammar
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    Do UCP?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    75% is a pretty high threshold. It's not unrealistic to suggest that 26% of Wildrose members might not be in favour of this. They could derail the whole thing. I wonder what would happen then.

    The next year or so could shape up to be very interesting. We could see the beginning of a two-party system. Or not. Maybe something will come out of the Red Tory/Alberta Party/Liberal/soft NDP supporters as well.

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    Alberta won't vote Liberal,besides, who the heck is there? Their leaders seem dried up older fussy types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I can't believe I haven't seen people talking about this here today:


    Alberta's Wildrose, PCs agree to create new United Conservative Party
    First leader of new party to be elected Oct. 28

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rger-1.4121473
    Boring administrative news at the moment. Will see what they offer that would be any different than the past.
    They've announced their intention to unite. It needs to be voted on, and requires 75% approval from Wildrose members and 50% from PC members to be ratified. It's likely to pass, but not guaranteed. Then there's a leadership run.

    Notley won't call an early election. She needs more time for the economy to recover and for their policies to take effect. Nobody's making any noise about the carbon tax anymore since it's had virtually no effect on people's day to day lives and hasn't caused the sky to fall as many predicted.
    That carbon tax will rear its ugly head again when the feds start talking about it. Plus we all know its going to go higher under the NDP.

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    If this merger goes through, Alberta's NDP experiment is dead meat.

  15. #15

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    The Provincial carbon tax is a complete non-issue outside of partisan nitpicking, as the Federal carbon rate will match the Alberta/NDP levy in 2 years & surpass it in 3 (from implementation).

    Federal carbon tax:

    Environment Minister Catherine McKenna will make public the paper, which proposes to give provinces three options for pricing carbon: legislate their own levy on emissions starting at $10 a tonne, legislate their own cap-and-trade system which can show it will produce equivalent cuts in emissions as a carbon tax, or use a hybrid model largely based on Alberta’s program which Ottawa will impose itself.
    The carbon tax, or cap-and-trade equivalent, will have to go up by $10 a year, rising to $50 a tonne by the end of 2022.
    http://globalnews.ca/news/3460582/ca...ian-provinces/ (emphasis mine)

    Provincial:

    As of January 1, a carbon levy is charged on all fuels that emit greenhouse gas emissions when combusted at a rate of $20/tonne in 2017 and $30/tonne in 2018. The rate is based on the amount of carbon pollution released by the fuel when it's combusted, not on the mass of fuel itself.
    https://www.alberta.ca/climate-carbon-pricing.aspx

    I'm even less concerned about the Carbon Tax than I was when it was initiated, which is less concerned than I was when it was announced. Better to be set up in advanced & seen as a leader than scramble around after the fact like many of the other provinces will have to.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    The Provincial carbon tax is a complete non-issue outside of partisan nitpicking, as the Federal carbon rate will match the Alberta/NDP levy in 2 years & surpass it in 3 (from implementation).
    That's not what the polls say, Albertan's are highly opposed outside of Edmonton - I think a lot of people will enjoy seeing their fuel drop by 10c (or whatever it is once all the carbon increases are phased in by the next election). If the Feds want to try and impose the same thing - that will be for them to fight / blood on their hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    The Provincial carbon tax is a complete non-issue outside of partisan nitpicking, as the Federal carbon rate will match the Alberta/NDP levy in 2 years & surpass it in 3 (from implementation).
    That's not what the polls say, Albertan's are highly opposed outside of Edmonton - I think a lot of people will enjoy seeing their fuel drop by 10c (or whatever it is once all the carbon increases are phased in by the next election). If the Feds want to try and impose the same thing - that will be for them to fight / blood on their hands.
    Well if the Pee party actually promises its supporters they will actually see a reduced carbon tax that will be their first broken promise and disappointment for their supporters. Maybe their supporters don't know there is already a federal carbon tax planned, so if the Alberta one is reduced the federal one will come into effect automatically at the same or a higher level and then Alberta will also not have control over how the money is used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    The Provincial carbon tax is a complete non-issue outside of partisan nitpicking, as the Federal carbon rate will match the Alberta/NDP levy in 2 years & surpass it in 3 (from implementation).
    That's not what the polls say, Albertan's are highly opposed outside of Edmonton - I think a lot of people will enjoy seeing their fuel drop by 10c (or whatever it is once all the carbon increases are phased in by the next election). If the Feds want to try and impose the same thing - that will be for them to fight / blood on their hands.
    Finally, someone who won't give into JT, who hasn't backed Notley at all on the pipeline!

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    Why are the percentages 75 & 50% for approval? Surely it should be 50/50, otherwise it's an un-level playing field from day one.
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    When Brian Mulroney brought in the GST the Cons were obliterated in the next election. It will be interesting to see how the modern day proponents of more tax more tax fare in future elections.

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    ^Yup, the NDP would not have won the protest vote if they had run on a platform of a carbon tax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^Yup, the NDP would not have won the protest vote if they had run on a platform of a carbon tax.
    Nope, no they would not!

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    The new UCP doesn't even have to run a campaign to eliminate the carbon tax. I just want my income tax dropped to offset - which is the way it should have been implemented but the NDP couldn't even get that right. Reducing income taxes and stopping leeches from wanting others to pay for their services should be the main goal of a fiscally concerned government.

    And no rebate cheques should be given for the carbon tax. You pollute, you pay. Currently, I'm paying for my neighbour to pollute. Or my girlfriend, however I choose to look at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Alberta won't vote Liberal

    If that's because Albertans don't vote for left-of-centre parties, then you kind of need to explain the last election.

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    ^the word "Liberal" is dirt in Alberta - it basically means NEP. Albertans don't vote for that - and the polls re the Alberta Liberal party reflect that, regardless of what they supposedly do or don't stand for. This will be a race between the NDP and the You see pee party. That's all there will be too it. Sure, I expect Alberta party and others to try and present a more "progressive" conservative brand, but the center is never that good a place to be. Need to be center left, or center right. Alberta is traditionally center right, but since Klein, has been center left (the left hijacked PC's under Stelmac and Redford, and now the NDP). Time for a real change back to responsible fiscal policies, much smaller government, lower taxes and GDP growth / jobs.

    As to Jean and Kenny - I prefer Jean. Heck, I wish Rona would come and lead the new party though, that would be a total landslide. Daniel Smith feels same way - this is the risk for the new party, they have to stay on fiscal matters, and leave social matters alone:

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3462378/da...ee-of-victory/

    It’s clear that voters long for another choice. I keep getting asked if I think Rona Ambrose will enter into the contest. My answer: I wish. I suspect the vast majority of conservative minded voters do too.

    There is a wariness of both Kenney and Jean mostly because of their perceived stances on controversial social issues. If the new party becomes embroiled in controversies over abortion, LGBTQ rights, assisted dying, pot legalization and the like, it will do nothing to broaden its base.
    Last edited by moahunter; 20-05-2017 at 12:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    Why are the percentages 75 & 50% for approval? Surely it should be 50/50, otherwise it's an un-level playing field from day one.
    I was wondering about that myself. I'm guessing that these are the internal requirements of both parties, ie. Wildrose has a rule saying 75% and the Tories have their own rule saying 50%?

    If so, then the fault lies with whichever party is supposedly being shortchanged by the required percentages, since they could presumably have imposed a different number on themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^the word "Liberal" is dirt in Alberta - it basically means NEP. Albertans don't vote for that - and the polls re the Alberta Liberal party reflect that, regardless of what they supposedly do or don't stand for. This will be a race between the NDP and the You see pee party. That's all there will be too it. Sure, I expect Alberta party and others to try and present a more "progressive" conservative brand, but the center is never that good a place to be. Need to be center left, or center right. Alberta is traditionally center right, but since Klein, has been center left (the left hijacked PC's under Stelmac and Redford, and now the NDP). Time for a real change back to responsible fiscal policies, much smaller government, lower taxes and GDP growth / jobs.
    It never really made a lot of sense that Albertans would refuse to vote Liberal because of the NEP, but be more willing to vote NDP, given that the NDP was at least as supportive of that policy as the Liberals were, and would probably have gone even further.

    But I do recognize that these things aren't always rational, and I do know people who cursed the name Pierre Trudeau while still thinking Broadbent was okay. Still, I think enough people today understand the political spectrum to know that if you were okay with voting NDP, you logically shouldn't have a problem with the Liberals. (Unless you regard the Liberals as too RIGHT-wing, in which case you're probably not outraged about the NEP).

    As for the whole "Stelmach and Redford hijacked the traditionally conservative PC party" thing...

    As has been pointed out before, that is mostly just revisionist history. Lougheed and Getty were to the left of Stelmach and Redford.

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    Kenney explained it on FB live. He's so well spoken, perhaps just a tad better than Jean. I will vote for either, if it means the end of the NDP.

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    I too am hoping Rona Ambrose runs for the leadership and beats these guys out. That would be funny. She'd no doubt make a good premier. I would prefer Jean over Kenney just because he is true Albertan, especially after everything he's been through in Ft. Mac. Kenney is another entitled Ottawa fat cat, something I don't really detect in Ambrose. He's a hard worker though and I think would be ok if he ends up as head honcho.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 20-05-2017 at 02:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I too am hoping Rona Ambrose runs for the leadership and beats these guys out. That would be funny. She'd no doubt make a good premier. I would prefer Jean over Kenney just because he is true Albertan, especially after everything he's been through in Ft. Mac. Kenney is another entitled Ottawa fat cat, something I don't really detect in Ambrose. He's a hard worker though and I think would be ok if he ends up as head honcho.
    Ambrose isn't running, she was pretty adamant when asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    It never really made a lot of sense that Albertans would refuse to vote Liberal because of the NEP, but be more willing to vote NDP, given that the NDP was at least as supportive of that policy as the Liberals were, and would probably have gone even further.
    I still laugh that old fart Albertans still bring up the NEP from 35 years ago as some kind of boogeyman to scare people into voting for right-wing governments. When I challenge them to ask when exactly the Liberal governments of Chretien and Martin resurrected the NEP, they can't tell me. In any case, 4 Liberal MPs from Alberta were elected to the current government by a new generation of Albertans who are untethered by old grudges, so I think the NEP is an irrelevant argument now. And it is this new generation of Albertans who helped the NDP win the last election, although the vote split between the PCs and Wildrose was a bigger factor.
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    Just like BC never votes Conservative, AB will never vote Liberal. They wont govern our province, and it has little to do with that loopy guy PET. I'm very happy they won't.

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    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Nope, thats not it. Keep up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Nope, thats not it. Keep up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    It never really made a lot of sense that Albertans would refuse to vote Liberal because of the NEP, but be more willing to vote NDP, given that the NDP was at least as supportive of that policy as the Liberals were, and would probably have gone even further.
    I still laugh that old fart Albertans still bring up the NEP from 35 years ago as some kind of boogeyman to scare people into voting for right-wing governments. When I challenge them to ask when exactly the Liberal governments of Chretien and Martin resurrected the NEP, they can't tell me. In any case, 4 Liberal MPs from Alberta were elected to the current government by a new generation of Albertans who are untethered by old grudges, so I think the NEP is an irrelevant argument now. And it is this new generation of Albertans who helped the NDP win the last election, although the vote split between the PCs and Wildrose was a bigger factor.
    NEP - Carbon Tax. What goes around comes around.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice... for myself personally id love to see the Condominium property act changes finally finished after 8 years of delays. Id love to see easier public access to crown land that gets tied up with agriculteral leases where the public is wrongly denied access. We dont need to be restricting more and more land away from the public as theyve been doing.

    Anyone but the ndp will at least bring additional confidence on business/investments. Its one area the ndp has completely failed with our economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice... for myself personally id love to see the Condominium property act changes finally finished after 8 years of delays. Id love to see easier public access to crown land that gets tied up with agriculteral leases where the public is wrongly denied access. We dont need to be restricting more and more land away from the public as theyve been doing.

    Anyone but the ndp will at least bring additional confidence on business/investments. Its one area the ndp has completely failed with our economy.

    Well said!

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice.
    The NDP has not nationalized the oil industry. They have advocated and made agreements with the feds to build pipelines. They have spent provincial funds fighting the aftermath of the Fort McMurray fires. They have kept the promises they made when they won a majority government.

    It's good to know the demented right-wing rabble will be content with a new government that will nationalize, halt the pipelines, and do no crisis management -- all the while promising to do the opposite.

    Rabid filth.

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    It works out because the Liberals of BC and the Libs in Ottawa would deal with an NDP Alberta. Cons back in AB and they just lock horns again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice... for myself personally id love to see the Condominium property act changes finally finished after 8 years of delays. Id love to see easier public access to crown land that gets tied up with agriculteral leases where the public is wrongly denied access. We dont need to be restricting more and more land away from the public as theyve been doing.

    Anyone but the ndp will at least bring additional confidence on business/investments. Its one area the ndp has completely failed with our economy.
    So if there were "8 year of delays" in changing this act and the NDP was has only been in government for 2 years, then where does most of the blame lie? - it seems with the PC's who were in for the previous 6 years.

    It is true that Albertans were tired of the PC incometence after 40 years and that was one reason the NDP was put in. It's so bad that the PC's are afraid to run again under that name. They hope if they change to UCP and add some fresh faces Albertans will forget all the PC disasters.

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    @ash the ndp arent responsible for any of the proposed pipelines, these were all years in the works. They have done nothing to keep those who voted for them(me) from voting for them ever again. The least they could do was put our economy and all those out of work first in any way... but thats been too much to ask apparently.

    I guess im a demented right wing voter because ive not agreed with how theyve ran the province...

    With all the extreme things the ndp have pushed out we've had zero updates on the 8 year old condominium act changes. Phasing out coal and entire industries was done over night but a simple reform to old laws get pushed aside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice... for myself personally id love to see the Condominium property act changes finally finished after 8 years of delays. Id love to see easier public access to crown land that gets tied up with agriculteral leases where the public is wrongly denied access. We dont need to be restricting more and more land away from the public as theyve been doing.

    Anyone but the ndp will at least bring additional confidence on business/investments. Its one area the ndp has completely failed with our economy.
    So if there were "8 year of delays" in changing this act and the NDP was has only been in government for 2 years, then where does most of the blame lie? - it seems with the PC's who were in for the previous 6 years.

    It is true that Albertans were tired of the PC incometence after 40 years and that was one reason the NDP was put in. It's so bad that the PC's are afraid to run again under that name. They hope if they change to UCP and add some fresh faces Albertans will forget all the PC disasters.
    No, thats not what they think. Two parties on the right means split votes and Notley goes right up the middle. That won't happen again, so enjoy them while you have them! And all their stupid freebies that are not free at all. Screwing in lightbulbs and they hire an Ontario company. Idiots!

    It will be nice to see Alberta back to being job friendly.
    Last edited by H.L.; 20-05-2017 at 11:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice... for myself personally id love to see the Condominium property act changes finally finished after 8 years of delays. Id love to see easier public access to crown land that gets tied up with agriculteral leases where the public is wrongly denied access. We dont need to be restricting more and more land away from the public as theyve been doing.

    Anyone but the ndp will at least bring additional confidence on business/investments. Its one area the ndp has completely failed with our economy.
    So if there were "8 year of delays" in changing this act and the NDP was has only been in government for 2 years, then where does most of the blame lie? - it seems with the PC's who were in for the previous 6 years.

    It is true that Albertans were tired of the PC incometence after 40 years and that was one reason the NDP was put in. It's so bad that the PC's are afraid to run again under that name. They hope if they change to UCP and add some fresh faces Albertans will forget all the PC disasters.
    No, thats not what they think. Two parties on the right means split votes and Notley goes right up the middle. That won't happen again, so enjoy them while you have them! And all their stupid freebies that are not free at all. Screwing in lightbulbs and they hire an Ontario company. Idiots!

    It will be nice to see Alberta back to being job friendly.
    No, it is exactly what they think. The PC's were able to win previous elections in Alberta despite there being other parties on the right, but they so tarnished their own brand they are now worried they can't win again as PC's - so, new party, new name. Kenney is a career politician and now that the Conservatives are out of power in Ottawa is looking for the quickest and easiest way back to his power and perks. After all those years in Ottawa, he didn't come back to Alberta for you and the only job he is really concerned about is his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It works out because the Liberals of BC and the Libs in Ottawa would deal with an NDP Alberta. Cons back in AB and they just lock horns again.
    The Liberal party in BC is basically the Conservatives in Alberta - it has no links to the Federal Liberal party, its as right as you can go in a province that has a lot of hippies. For example, they have a carbon tax, but at least its an "almost" revenue neutral one - it was backed by tax cuts not increased state spending. I think very shortly we will have, in effect, a Conservative West again, the NDP experiment has been brutally painful (the unemployment rate is inexcusable - oil prices are just as good as when they took office, but the jobs have now gone), but at least its a lesson for people who haven't experienced socialism, other than the Redford (entitlement) / Stelmac (dithering) variety.
    Last edited by moahunter; 21-05-2017 at 08:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    With UCP, everything will become perfect again...LOL

    BTW - what is the agenda for UCP? Slash public sector jobs, and that's it?
    Simply doing the opposite of the ndp will suffice... for myself personally id love to see the Condominium property act changes finally finished after 8 years of delays. Id love to see easier public access to crown land that gets tied up with agriculteral leases where the public is wrongly denied access. We dont need to be restricting more and more land away from the public as theyve been doing.

    Anyone but the ndp will at least bring additional confidence on business/investments. Its one area the ndp has completely failed with our economy.
    So if there were "8 year of delays" in changing this act and the NDP was has only been in government for 2 years, then where does most of the blame lie? - it seems with the PC's who were in for the previous 6 years.

    It is true that Albertans were tired of the PC incometence after 40 years and that was one reason the NDP was put in. It's so bad that the PC's are afraid to run again under that name. They hope if they change to UCP and add some fresh faces Albertans will forget all the PC disasters.
    No, thats not what they think. Two parties on the right means split votes and Notley goes right up the middle. That won't happen again, so enjoy them while you have them! And all their stupid freebies that are not free at all. Screwing in lightbulbs and they hire an Ontario company. Idiots!

    It will be nice to see Alberta back to being job friendly.
    No, it is exactly what they think. The PC's were able to win previous elections in Alberta despite there being other parties on the right, but they so tarnished their own brand they are now worried they can't win again as PC's - so, new party, new name. Kenney is a career politician and now that the Conservatives are out of power in Ottawa is looking for the quickest and easiest way back to his power and perks. After all those years in Ottawa, he didn't come back to Alberta for you and the only job he is really concerned about is his own.

    I .don't. care. Evey politician is in it for themselves, take Trudeau( please) man of the people. Comes to Edmonton, small crowd, ignores the fact that people are going to lose jobs and really doesn't care to talk with them. I want the NDP gone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It works out because the Liberals of BC and the Libs in Ottawa would deal with an NDP Alberta. Cons back in AB and they just lock horns again.
    The Liberal party in BC is basically the Conservatives in Alberta - it has no links to the Federal Liberal party, its as right as you can go in a province that has a lot of hippies. For example, they have a carbon tax, but at least its an "almost" revenue neutral one - it was backed by tax cuts not increased state spending. I think very shortly we will have, in effect, a Conservative West again, the NDP experiment has been brutally painful (the unemployment rate is inexcusable - oil prices are just as good as when they took office, but the jobs have now gone), but at least its a lesson for people who haven't experienced socialism, other than the Redford (entitlement) / Stelmac (dithering) variety.
    Well said. Moa!

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    If i could ignore all that the ndp isnt doing for alberta (and i cant) id still not vote for the ndp again based on issues that matter to me.

    Condominium property act changes have been ignored and i own a couple investment condos.
    Closing of public lands is a big deal for me as im a hunter and outdoor enthusiast. We need easier access to all land with simpler dispute resolutions for companies leasing public land.
    My MLA's office required multiple inquiries before they responded to me.
    We need better property rights when dealing with criminals in your own home.

    The only interest i see of anything theyre doing is the photo radar.. im curious to see what comes of that.

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    If the pee party wins: "Attention all women: Back to the kitchen! Immediately!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    If the pee party wins: "Attention all women: Back to the kitchen! Immediately!"

    Right, maybe your woman!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    If the pee party wins: "Attention all women: Back to the kitchen! Immediately!"

    Right, maybe your woman!
    Typical right wing conservative slander. When there's nothing of substance to say, then they go after the women.
    Your response above proves my point...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    If the pee party wins: "Attention all women: Back to the kitchen! Immediately!"





    Right, maybe your woman!
    Typical right wing conservative slander. When there's nothing of substance to say, then they go after the women.
    Your response above proves my point...
    You said, all women back to the kitchen,not I. You're not making any sense, it could be the sun.

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    In fairness, it's not like the status of women under the NDP is exponentially different from what it was under the PCs, even when the latter party was at their most conservative.

    That said, if the conservatives come back to power, especially harbouring the Wildrose Party in one form or another, we can probably expect to see a revival of attempts to restrict abortion, roll back the gains made by GLBQT people, etc. Whether any of that SoCon pandering will actually bear legislative fruit is another question(nothing really happened federally in that regard under Harper).

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    That said, if the conservatives come back to power, especially harbouring the Wildrose Party in one form or another, we can probably expect to see a revival of attempts to restrict abortion, roll back the gains made by GLBQT people, etc. Whether any of that SoCon pandering will actually bear legislative fruit is another question(nothing really happened federally in that regard under Harper).
    Your only argument against the pee party is the hidden agenda stuff again? Guns on streets, ... etc. etc.? How much did abortion get put back under Harper? How about gay rights - it was Harpers government that lead a gay rights refugee program (which the Liberals have disbanded), and spoke out internationally in favor of gay rights. Yeah, there are some nutcase social conservatives on the right from farming communities, which will be part of the base of the pee party, but they have never had power for generations, and never will, any more than the communist fringe of the NDP will get in power nationalize everything.
    Last edited by moahunter; 22-05-2017 at 07:58 AM.

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    Moa: I had a longer reply, but it got obliterated when I tried to post.

    I'll just summarize by saying that I agree the attempts at reversing socially liberal advancements would not get very far, and I never suggested that they would. Just that they are more likely to happen(probably via backbencher activity) under a conservative party than under a left-wing or liberal one.

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    ^I can agree to that, but nationalization of industry, or reduction in prison sentences, would be more likely to happen under left wing. I think the reality is that not much will change on social issues with either party if they want to stay in power.

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    Well, relatively, you are more likely to see nationalization under the NDP than under conservatives. But in absolute terms, I don't think it's likely that the NDP will nationalize anything. Notley and company can't even bring themselves to raise royalties, let alone make the oil companies into crown corporations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    That said, if the conservatives come back to power, especially harbouring the Wildrose Party in one form or another, we can probably expect to see a revival of attempts to restrict abortion, roll back the gains made by GLBQT people, etc.
    Typical left wing fear mongering that has no bearing in reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.tru.albertan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    That said, if the conservatives come back to power, especially harbouring the Wildrose Party in one form or another, we can probably expect to see a revival of attempts to restrict abortion, roll back the gains made by GLBQT people, etc.
    Typical left wing fear mongering that has no bearing in reality.
    Yeah, complete fantasy.

    Amendment to the provincial Marriage Act

    The conservatives have probably given up on rolling back gay marriage by now, but that probably wouldn't stop them from trying to undo other gains since then. And note that I said "trying to". My guess is they wouldn't succeeed, but at least make the attempt, to pander to their SoCon faction.

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    I don't see why a backbencher can't voice what they think. It seldom passes muster. Oh, except for JTs crew bringing in all the grandparents etc, that haven't paid a scent towards an overcrowded health care system, that they will use.
    But I can't jump ahead and go private if I want. What a cluster blank!

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    Where did I say backbenchers can't voice what they think? They can say whatever they want. My point is, there are more likely to be socially conservative backbenchers expressing those views, and trying to get the attendant legislation passed, if conservatives take over the government. Obviously, if you're a conservative, you'll like that; left-winger, not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by the.tru.albertan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    That said, if the conservatives come back to power, especially harbouring the Wildrose Party in one form or another, we can probably expect to see a revival of attempts to restrict abortion, roll back the gains made by GLBQT people, etc.
    Typical left wing fear mongering that has no bearing in reality.
    Yeah, complete fantasy.

    Amendment to the provincial Marriage Act

    The conservatives have probably given up on rolling back gay marriage by now, but that probably wouldn't stop them from trying to undo other gains since then. And note that I said "trying to". My guess is they wouldn't succeeed, but at least make the attempt, to pander to their SoCon faction.
    Yah, thanks for the history lesson. The Notwithstanding Clause for the amendment ended in March 2005. That was 12 years ago. Everything since then from all levels of government shows support for that subject.

    Anyways, I don't see a Conservative government attacking anything. If UCP forms, I'm getting a membership and voting for Jean. He should be leading this province.
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    The kids who used to live for beer and speed, now want their fries and coke.

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    I do wish they could pick a name that reflected both parties. I wonder if they could call it the Alberta Conservative Party or would that be too close to the Alberta Party's name? United Conservative Party is too boring of a name for me, but then again nobody asked me.

  64. #64

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    Wildrose Conservative Party?

    Conservatives Gone Wild Party?

    Conservatives Reunited in Alberta Party?

    NDPers may prefer the last suggestion.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Why not just the "Conservative Party" - the PC/WR splinter & merger is pretty much a repeat of the federal PC/Reform splinter & merger at the provincial level, and the people leading this are from the former Harper regime.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  66. #66

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    United Creeps of Alberta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    United Creeps of Alberta.
    That's taken by the NDP.

  68. #68

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    Don't worry about the name. They still need to tell the two parties what the merged party will stand for, and that will require a stance on LGBTQ rights. Pro-LGBTQ, lose the Wildrose vote, hands down. Anti-LGBTQ, decent chance they lose the PC vote. That's just one item. There's a lot of reasons this could blow up for them.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Don't worry about the name. They still need to tell the two parties what the merged party will stand for, and that will require a stance on LGBTQ rights. Pro-LGBTQ, lose the Wildrose vote, hands down. Anti-LGBTQ, decent chance they lose the PC vote. That's just one item. There's a lot of reasons this could blow up for them.

    Because that's the most important question, not how we can get people back to work, and away from those huge lineup's at food banks!

  70. #70

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    Yeah! Human rights later, now is the time to focus on tax cuts for businesses, then rolling back government services, wages & spending!
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Plus putting this baby back in service.


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    The ol' Fruit Machine!
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Don't worry about the name. They still need to tell the two parties what the merged party will stand for, and that will require a stance on LGBTQ rights. Pro-LGBTQ, lose the Wildrose vote, hands down. Anti-LGBTQ, decent chance they lose the PC vote. That's just one item. There's a lot of reasons this could blow up for them.

    Because that's the most important question, not how we can get people back to work, and away from those huge lineup's at food banks!
    It is one of the most important questions.

    People would be at the food banks regardless of what party is in power in a bum economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Yeah! Human rights later, now is the time to focus on tax cuts for businesses, then rolling back government services, wages & spending!
    Over exaggerate much, dimwit!

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    How is that an exaggeration? That is the Wildrose's stated party platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    How is that an exaggeration? That is the Wildrose's stated party platform.
    Have you heard it stated lately? No, I thought not.
    Government worker?

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    Private business owner. Thanks for coming out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Private business owner. Thanks for coming out.
    Ditto! And did well with the former government.

  79. #79

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    ^ What exactly changed? Was exploiting agricultural workers and not offering workers compensation such a big deal to you, or are you just mis-attributing a general economic downturn and oil bust to the NDP?
    There can only be one.

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    ^everybody knows that Notley secretly controls the price of oil and has chosen to keep prices low to kill the Alberta Advantage. *readjusts tin foil hat*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    ^ What exactly changed? Was exploiting agricultural workers and not offering workers compensation such a big deal to you, or are you just mis-attributing a general economic downturn and oil bust to the NDP?
    Oh no, she's down with big oil and pipelines now.lol. Especially since she can't fund all her little pet projects, but she will throw us into debt and more debt. Typical left, loves spending other peoples money, with no end in sight, until the next election.._

    She should keep her money grabbing hands off of farmers! Although she's made enemies of them, for life!

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    ^everybody knows that Notley secretly controls the price of oil and has chosen to keep prices low to kill the Alberta Advantage. *readjusts tin foil hat*
    There is more oil being consumed today in the world, than ever, in human history. The price today is around $50, which is more than enough for our economy to be doing very well, as long as we live within our means, and provide certainty to business (not promises of future tax hikes, which is what a big deficit means).

  83. #83

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    Do people forget the late 80s and early 90s? Oil tanked and Alberta's outlook was more bleak than it is today. Correct if I'm wrong, the PC's formed the government in those days. (Personally, I think if it wasn't for the Oilers winning cups, there would have been nothing worth celebrating in this town)

    We are resource dependent. Doesn't matter which government we have in place. The policies set in our Legislature are virtually insignificant - while the actions by OPEC affect us more than we realise.

  84. #84

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    ^^That's right, we need medium-sized tax hikes now to avoid big ones in the future.
    There can only be one.

  85. #85

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    Maybe HL's small business is/was a heavy polluter, since the carbon tax must have affected her bottom line more than the 33% reduction in the small business tax rate, hence the NDP-directed vitriol?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    ^^And diversify the economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Maybe HL's small business is/was a heavy polluter, since the carbon tax must have affected her bottom line more than the 33% reduction in the small business tax rate, hence the NDP-directed vitriol?
    Nope, wrong again . I loathe the NDP, sue me.

    Plus Notley has her own thread. This is a merger thread( can't wait for that merge!)

    Yes!

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    Hey, I was just trying to find a reasonable answer for the question Highlander II asked you here that you seem incapable of providing a concrete answer to. I guess that answers that, you've just got an ideological axe to grind & have no need of things like facts to get in the way of a good ol' swipe at "the left".
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Hey, I was just trying to find a reasonable answer for the question Highlander II asked you here that you seem incapable of providing a concrete answer to. I guess that answers that, you've just got an ideological axe to grind & have no need of things like facts to get in the way of a good ol' swipe at "the left".
    Wrong again noodle. Damn you are wrong a lot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Wrong again noodle. Damn you are wrong a lot!
    I wouldn't want to be right by you.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    ^^That's right, we need medium-sized tax hikes now to avoid big ones in the future.
    There are three choices:

    1. Raise taxes. This means less business investment and higher private sector unemployment
    2. Lower costs. This means more business investment and higher government sector unemployment
    3. Pretend its not happening and push the problem to a future generation.

    I prefer 2 (I think you get better economic growth long term, which means more money for government over time), you prefer 1 (I guess you care more about funding social services short term). I don't like 3, its irresponsible, and businesses don't like it either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Wrong again noodle. Damn you are wrong a lot!
    I wouldn't want to be right by you.
    Never happen

  93. #93

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    For taxes I was thinking a sales tax (HST), income taxes and some user fees like freeway tolls. Nothing that will materially affect private investment.

    Lowering costs to within our existing government revenues will do nothing to decrease costs on business, but will have significant negative effects on the economy as those laid-off government employees stop spending money. Whether you like them or not the vast majority of those government workers are providing actual services.

    I do favour medium-term wage freezes in the public sector to ease wages back down, but keep in mind that tax increases would be a de-facto cut for them too.

    in simple terms,

    I think that we should fix things by actually paying for the services that we enjoy, Moa and the non-progressive conservatives think that only government workers should be the ones to pay.
    There can only be one.

  94. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post

    in simple terms,

    I think that we should fix things by actually paying for the services that we enjoy, Moa and the non-progressive conservatives think that only government workers should be the ones to pay.
    If you don't think private sector workers have been paying you are in la la land, unemployment is brutal. By dithering and "hoping" oil will go up and bail them out of the excessive spending our public sector is addicted too, rather than facing up to the unsustainability of us having one of the most expensive public services in the western world per capita, the NDP is just digging a bigger correction that the Pee party will have to correct - the coming cuts are the fault of them (and Redford, and Stelmac), deciding to live beyond what we can afford rather than within it.

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    Moa,
    None of those things are mutually exclusive of one another as there are different sectors to look at and each can be looked at differently. I think the NDP government agrees with #2 in a certain context, they did lower the small business tax did they not?

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post

    in simple terms,

    I think that we should fix things by actually paying for the services that we enjoy, Moa and the non-progressive conservatives think that only government workers should be the ones to pay.
    If you don't think private sector workers have been paying you are in la la land, unemployment is brutal. By dithering and "hoping" oil will go up and bail them out of the excessive spending our public sector is addicted too, rather than facing up to the unsustainability of us having one of the most expensive public services in the western world per capita, the NDP is just digging a bigger correction that the Pee party will have to correct - the coming cuts are the fault of them (and Redford, and Stelmac), deciding to live beyond what we can afford rather than within it.
    Oil prices fluctuate a lot over time, so I don't think the spending side of the budget should be based on low oil prices. They have already recovered more than $20/barrel from the low point and most people expect they will continue to recover. The public sector was already expensive per capita under the PC's so this wasn't a problem the NDP created.

    By the way, what cuts are coming? I have asked the question many times and never got a clear answer about what the PC's or Wildrose plan to cut to save billions. I think Albertan's have a right to know what their plans really are, or do they want to save the bad news as a surprise until after the next election. Why don't they tell us now which hospitals and schools they plan to close?

  97. #97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post

    in simple terms,

    I think that we should fix things by actually paying for the services that we enjoy, Moa and the non-progressive conservatives think that only government workers should be the ones to pay.
    If you don't think private sector workers have been paying you are in la la land, unemployment is brutal. By dithering and "hoping" oil will go up and bail them out of the excessive spending our public sector is addicted too, rather than facing up to the unsustainability of us having one of the most expensive public services in the western world per capita, the NDP is just digging a bigger correction that the Pee party will have to correct - the coming cuts are the fault of them (and Redford, and Stelmac), deciding to live beyond what we can afford rather than within it.
    Oil prices fluctuate a lot over time, so I don't think the spending side of the budget should be based on low oil prices. They have already recovered more than $20/barrel from the low point and most people expect they will continue to recover. The public sector was already expensive per capita under the PC's so this wasn't a problem the NDP created.

    By the way, what cuts are coming? I have asked the question many times and never got a clear answer about what the PC's or Wildrose plan to cut to save billions. I think Albertan's have a right to know what their plans really are, or do they want to save the bad news as a surprise until after the next election. Why don't they tell us now which hospitals and schools they plan to close?
    Yup. Ask what to cut and you only get the word "waste". A totally useless response.

    The carbon tax isn't neutral so that is a step towards offsetting the reliance on oil royalties and it's one with an incentive to reduce coal, oil and gas consumption - all products that exporters can then sell more of thus generating more revenue...

    Higher taxes on many companies, but only the profitable companies also reduces reliance on oil royalties (with a negative feedback loop of course). However increased investment and spending reduces profits in the short term so companies can spend more now, reduce their taxes, and hope for tax reductions in the future. In the meantime their spending can enhance their production and efficiency.
    Last edited by KC; 26-05-2017 at 03:35 PM.

  98. #98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post

    in simple terms,

    I think that we should fix things by actually paying for the services that we enjoy, Moa and the non-progressive conservatives think that only government workers should be the ones to pay.
    If you don't think private sector workers have been paying you are in la la land, unemployment is brutal. By dithering and "hoping" oil will go up and bail them out of the excessive spending our public sector is addicted too, rather than facing up to the unsustainability of us having one of the most expensive public services in the western world per capita, the NDP is just digging a bigger correction that the Pee party will have to correct - the coming cuts are the fault of them (and Redford, and Stelmac), deciding to live beyond what we can afford rather than within it.
    Oil prices fluctuate a lot over time, so I don't think the spending side of the budget should be based on low oil prices. They have already recovered more than $20/barrel from the low point and most people expect they will continue to recover. The public sector was already expensive per capita under the PC's so this wasn't a problem the NDP created.

    By the way, what cuts are coming? I have asked the question many times and never got a clear answer about what the PC's or Wildrose plan to cut to save billions. I think Albertan's have a right to know what their plans really are, or do they want to save the bad news as a surprise until after the next election. Why don't they tell us now which hospitals and schools they plan to close?
    Read the Wildrose platform. They clearly state that they will reduce government management jobs first and foremost. Whether that means converting those jobs to lower classifications or axing them is hard to say. However, management isn't unionized, so they don't really get a huge say in the matter other than being ****** off at the polls in the future.

    Honestly, someone needs to introduce a sales tax in this province. I was hopeful the PC's would get it done, but then they lost the election. The NDP know they are unpopular as it is, so that would be a nail in the coffin. Perhaps, whomever replaces them will get it done. It is one of the only ways to offset the massive costs we have in this province. Every other province is doing better than us, because they collect more on that front. Without oil generating income, we need something that doesn't hurt corporate and business growth, and I think that answer is at the individual level across the province. Increased income tax could be an idea too, or tier that out, but I think a sales tax is less noticeable in some ways. I've lived in Nova Scotia and grew up in BC (when tax was lower there), and I haven't noticed a huge difference living here in Alberta. If you're living too far outside of your means, you're going to have problems with your finances regardless of what happens.

  99. #99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    By the way, what cuts are coming? I have asked the question many times and never got a clear answer about what the PC's or Wildrose plan to cut to save billions. I think Albertan's have a right to know what their plans really are, or do they want to save the bad news as a surprise until after the next election. Why don't they tell us now which hospitals and schools they plan to close?
    I expect the usual stuff - a few old hospitals shut down, kids having to tolerate a couple of extra children in each classroom, a lot of middle management eliminated in ivory towers, doctors not getting six figure bonuses, etc.
    Last edited by moahunter; 26-05-2017 at 03:55 PM.

  100. #100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    By the way, what cuts are coming? I have asked the question many times and never got a clear answer about what the PC's or Wildrose plan to cut to save billions. I think Albertan's have a right to know what their plans really are, or do they want to save the bad news as a surprise until after the next election. Why don't they tell us now which hospitals and schools they plan to close?
    I expect the usual stuff - a few old hospitals shut down, kids having to tolerate a couple of extra children in each classroom, a lot of middle management eliminated in ivory towers, etc.
    Nickels and dimes impacts. Our problem, as long as oil royalty payments are low, is far far larger than any tinkering around can eliminate. Significant program cuts, program eliminations, salary cuts and/or freezes and higher taxes and fees are likely required if some sort of balance is to be achieved.

    However people really need to think about how government spending works. A large portion of it goes directly into the provincial economy, into the salaries of people that turn around and go to restaurants, buy and repair houses, and otherwise create other jobs and permit other businesses to be profitable. Exactly the same as any private sector spending.

    Encourage stability and job security and people spend even more likely borrowing and/or saving less.

    Encourage instability and job insecurity and people save more, fight harder for the secure jobs (even though they may not be suitable for them), they try to grab the money and run (ie leave the province), and companies and other entities also start to engage in knee jerk, unprofessional, insecure behaviour while refusing to invest for the long run because they'll never know if they can survive the short run.

    And moa- many businesses see NDP government debt as saving their bacon while socializing the cost of saving their executive jobs and perks and even company profitability / because they know that the alternative of maintaining a balanced budget as oil prices collapsed would have meant a massive cut to government spending in Alberta and a possible collapse of the economy into a depression. That's why the PCs would have done the same thing - borrowed to the hilt and prayed for higher oil prices.
    Last edited by KC; 26-05-2017 at 04:21 PM.

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