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Thread: This is Jusitce? Greyhound killer released

  1. #1

    Default This is Jusitce? Greyhound killer released

    Oh my, an unconditional release. I don't think this is protecting the public, at all.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...arge-1.3977278

  2. #2

    Default Baker remains a significant threat to society

    So, as I understand it, if he forgets or decides to stop taking his meds, the same thing could happen again:

    http://www.winnipegsun.com/2017/02/1...eat-to-society

    No wonder even his mom thinks this release is wrong.

  3. #3

    Default

    The guy is obviously still mentally ill as he is taking meds for his illness. Millions of people lead highly successful lives while battling mental illness but millions of them don't have the same kind of mental illness he does. I don't know if we should ever trust someone with his type of illness to be living out alone in the public domain.
    He must be on some pretty powerful medication to stop his delusions/hallucinations/paranoia etc. Hopefully he does not stop taking them because he does not like the side effects of them. Apparently side effects can be not to pleasant.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  4. #4

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    Well, it's more of a science/evidenced based system than just having a guy serve his sentence and then releasing him if he doesn't have a dangerous offender classification (or however it now works).

    I tend to think anyone who commits severe and violent crimes like murder, etc. must have some sort of severe mental issues, even if they pass current psychological tests.

  5. #5

    Default

    It's not that simple. The science of mental illness has to define if the person is organically mentally ill or physiologically mentally ill. As in, does the person lack certain brain chemicals that make him/her ill or has he/she had a head injury that make him/her mentally ill or it that person is just evil. I do think there are just plain down right evil people in this world. People who will do the most horrendous things knowing full well what they are doing. I also believe that there are genuinely mentally ill people who through no fault of their own are born with or have contracted certain conditions that effect the brain that render them to certain degrees mentally incapable. It's the physicologist/physiatrists who have to figure out if the person is mentally ill due to factors beyond their control or if the person is just plain out evil. If you look at depression alone, people with that mental illness lack certain brain chemicals. Is it their fault, no. The brain is like any other part of the body, things can go wrong for different reasons. Some research indicates that people with too much dopamine can suffer from schizophrenia and people who lack it may get Parkinson's Disease. How about all those quarterbacks/boxers leaving their brains to science to study how much damage has been done to them and the havoc that has caused when constantly getting concussion. Some peoples mental illness can be helped by medication. Just being evil is a whole different matter.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  6. #6

    Default

    To me, this is the thing here:

    "The de-institutionalizing of people with mental illnesses and putting them into the public and leaving them to the criminal justice to monitor — I think we have to have a lot of discussion about this yet."
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...arge-1.3977278


    Oh, but "look at all those taxpayer dollars we saved by hacking "fat cat" Alberta Hospital and other forms of mental health support to smithereens."
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  7. #7

    Default

    This is one of the best explanations I've seen of Li/Baker's medical condition. Even though he is mentally ill due to schizophrenia and deemed criminally not responsible due to this condition I still feel he should be in a monitored facility with more supervision. The fast majority of schizophrenics do not commit such violent acts but this one was different. Thing is, if he is going off the rails will he himself know enough to know he is going off the rails. If his meds are not working as well will he recognize the symptoms himself or just think it's the norm.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ll-supervision
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  8. #8

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    ^ absolutely. But by the time criminal justice discovers a risk, it's only because it's already too late. Why not just trust the mental health professionals and reconstitute the level of mental health support we had until Klein?

    Sick of non experts like myself being forced to confront this. We have experts that can know better than we do.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  9. #9

    Default

    Thing is with mental health the health professionals and agencies seem to be re-active rather than pro-active. They wait until something happens then they rush around to do something. The public can be complacent in that also. Take a person with dementia. Nine times out of ten that person has to do something catastrophic before they are put on a waiting list for a nursing home/facility. People taken care of them know there is something wrong but just muddle along putting off the inevitable. Until they get a call saying grandpa/ma has just breezed through a stop sign/set the house on fire/walked out in the middle of the night when it's 29 below/invited someone into the house then got robbed blind/went after the mail man with a spade. Then all of a sudden they are hollering for a space in a home and ticked off about the wait. The health professionals should be a bit more pro-active and tell people to start the process of finding somewhere safe for their loved ones. Their mental health is deteriorating and it's not going to get better. In the case of Li/Baker who will be there to catch him if/when his mental health takes a dive. He may not do what he did before but he could potentially do a lot of damage.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  10. #10

    Default

    I'm honestly OK with release, but for fuq sakes he should have lifetime medication monitoring.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm honestly OK with release, but for fuq sakes he should have lifetime medication monitoring.
    Certainly should. There is also the availability of "depot" administration of the antipsychotic medication required and that would also cross reference whether the medication is actually being taken. This delivery of meds is usually by injection and the patient needs to come in and get injected with frequency depending on the medication involved.

    Heres some more on why this method of delivery likely should have occurred;

    https://academic.oup.com/schizophren...edications-for



    That theres no mention of that, and that the Psychiatrist instead states "this patient knows his condition and that he has to take his meds always is the biggest load of horse drivel. The very nature of Schizophrenia, and related disorders is the patient having periods of less lucidity or clear head where patients are vulnerable to delusional aspect and not taking meds vs patients feeling overconfident with their present condition and misinterpreting "not needing the meds"

    Next, Schizophrenia should not be considered as one catch all category describing all patients with the condition. For many sufferers their delusional profile can be moderate, or in remission, and with symptoms that don't often involve harming others. many Schizophrenics function without people even knowing they have the condition. This particular patient however had full blown Schizophrenia, and extensive delusion, and to an extent that was murderous and completely dissociated from reality.

    That this same person, with this same profile is considered to be safe and released on his own recognisance is the worst fears confirmed in terms of the lack of the Mental Health system to provide necessary resources to protect the public from harm of released individuals like this.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-02-2017 at 04:19 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Sick of non experts like myself being forced to confront this. We have experts that can know better than we do.
    forced how? turn the page, flip the channel, or page down
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  13. #13
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    Were talking about a country that let Eddie Haymour back in after he stormed the canadian embassy in Lebanon and held people hostages . He currently lives in Edmonton so this does not surprize me they let this guy out Eddie's story is quite fascinating . I was flabbergasted he was let back in till I got to know him and learned his story . Actually very nice guy. http://eddyhaymour.blogspot.ca/
    live for happiness because without it everything seems ho hum

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm honestly OK with release, but for fuq sakes he should have lifetime medication monitoring.
    Certainly should. There is also the availability of "depot" administration of the antipsychotic medication required and that would also cross reference whether the medication is actually being taken. This delivery of meds is usually by injection and the patient needs to come in and get injected with frequency depending on the medication involved.

    Heres some more on why this method of delivery likely should have occurred;

    https://academic.oup.com/schizophren...edications-for



    That theres no mention of that, and that the Psychiatrist instead states "this patient knows his condition and that he has to take his meds always is the biggest load of horse drivel. The very nature of Schizophrenia, and related disorders is the patient having periods of less lucidity or clear head where patients are vulnerable to delusional aspect and not taking meds vs patients feeling overconfident with their present condition and misinterpreting "not needing the meds"

    Next, Schizophrenia should not be considered as one catch all category describing all patients with the condition. For many sufferers their delusional profile can be moderate, or in remission, and with symptoms that don't often involve harming others. many Schizophrenics function without people even knowing they have the condition. This particular patient however had full blown Schizophrenia, and extensive delusion, and to an extent that was murderous and completely dissociated from reality.

    That this same person, with this same profile is considered to be safe and released on his own recognisance is the worst fears confirmed in terms of the lack of the Mental Health system to provide necessary resources to protect the public from harm of released individuals like this.
    Since Baker/Li got an Absolute Discharge on these charges does this except him from having to be monitored though?. Millions of diabetic people administer their own injections daily, some several times a day. Are they letting Baker/Li administer his own injections. If so, wrong on all levels.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Sick of non experts like myself being forced to confront this. We have experts that can know better than we do.
    forced how? turn the page, flip the channel, or page down
    Yeah, as if it were possible to avoid when it happened.

    And how responsible is that? This happened in our place, partly because of us collectively, so I should just put my hands in my pockets and walk away on the sunny side of the street?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  16. #16

    Default

    OK, you were forced, poor you.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by buildthemhigh View Post
    Were talking about a country that let Eddie Haymour back in after he stormed the canadian embassy in Lebanon and held people hostages . He currently lives in Edmonton so this does not surprize me they let this guy out Eddie's story is quite fascinating . I was flabbergasted he was let back in till I got to know him and learned his story . Actually very nice guy. http://eddyhaymour.blogspot.ca/
    I'd guess he was a Canadian citizen, so he got back in. As for being insane. Interesting how things can go. So yes, the truth is often something well beyond the headlines and sound bites and what the loudest whiners say it is.


    Eddy
    September 30, 2001.

    In responding to Ron Seymour's recent article, "Canada Rewarded Okanagan 'Terrorist' Quite Well", I just have to emphasize that Mr. Haymour had, himself and his family, been terrorized by various ministries and administrators of the British Columbia government - for more than 10 years, already!
    ...
    Supreme Court Justice Gordon MacKinnon wrote:
    "Senior government officials, including ministers of the Crown and with the knowledge of then-Premier W.A.C. Bennett...no less than 6 departments...were involved in the conspiracy...The B.C. government's actions have been highly improper, illegal and even cruel."

    It turns out that, no matter how you slice it, Eddy Haymour was no terrorist, at all. His act of terrorism was born out of a final attempt at justice, all avenues having failed him, thus far. This, in and of itself, turns Mr. Haymour's actions into that of one of justice, in and of itself.
    ...

    Even a terrorist has a right to have their side of the story heard. To be allowed to explain to the world what it took to provoke such a violent act against, ultimately, all humanity.

    And lets be sure to have all the facts when we level our accusations and not go shooting our bombers off, half cocked. The time is now to stop manufacturing terrorists!

    Yours very truly,

    Shamus Aristocrites
    Kelowna, B.C.
    ...

    http://www.ourcourtssuck.com/Shamus.html


    #12 BC Crime Stories Rattlesnake Isl. | BC
    2015

    ..."When he tried to welcome several hundred guests to a preview in June 1972, RCMP officers spent the day at the water taxi dock discouraging people from attending." ..,

    "But Haymour was right. Behind the scenes, Bennett, provincial cabinet ministers, local officials, and at least six government departments had been secretly conspiring to make sure the project would never be built."



    This story is from the book, Dead Ends: BC Crime Stories (University of Regina Press $19.95), by journalist Paul Willcocks. It’s part of the University of Regina Press’s Canadian True Crime Series. Each book in this series contains 40 bizarre and sensational transgressions. 978-0-88977-348-6


    http://bcbooklook.com/2015/02/17/the...esnake-island/
    Last edited by KC; 11-02-2017 at 08:56 PM.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OK, you were forced, poor you.
    Life is so simple for you. Be proud.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OK, you were forced, poor you.
    Life is so simple for you. Be proud.
    Indeed!
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OK, you were forced, poor you.
    Life is so simple for you. Be proud.
    Indeed!
    Yes! Simpletons unite!
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OK, you were forced, poor you.
    Life is so simple for you. Be proud.
    Indeed!
    Yes! Simpletons unite!
    By all means, do!
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  22. #22

    Default

    ^ yes do!
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Thing is with mental health the health professionals and agencies seem to be re-active rather than pro-active. They wait until something happens then they rush around to do something.
    That's what we had though...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  24. #24

    Default

    The Greyhound beheader is a proven danger to the public. I mean, he sawed a random stranger's head off in front of a bus full of terrorized passengers. Mental illness or not, somebody like that needs to be kept a safe distance from the public for the safety of society.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm honestly OK with release, but for fuq sakes he should have lifetime medication monitoring.
    Certainly should. There is also the availability of "depot" administration of the antipsychotic medication required and that would also cross reference whether the medication is actually being taken. This delivery of meds is usually by injection and the patient needs to come in and get injected with frequency depending on the medication involved.

    Heres some more on why this method of delivery likely should have occurred;

    https://academic.oup.com/schizophren...edications-for



    That theres no mention of that, and that the Psychiatrist instead states "this patient knows his condition and that he has to take his meds always is the biggest load of horse drivel. The very nature of Schizophrenia, and related disorders is the patient having periods of less lucidity or clear head where patients are vulnerable to delusional aspect and not taking meds vs patients feeling overconfident with their present condition and misinterpreting "not needing the meds"

    Next, Schizophrenia should not be considered as one catch all category describing all patients with the condition. For many sufferers their delusional profile can be moderate, or in remission, and with symptoms that don't often involve harming others. many Schizophrenics function without people even knowing they have the condition. This particular patient however had full blown Schizophrenia, and extensive delusion, and to an extent that was murderous and completely dissociated from reality.

    That this same person, with this same profile is considered to be safe and released on his own recognisance is the worst fears confirmed in terms of the lack of the Mental Health system to provide necessary resources to protect the public from harm of released individuals like this.
    Since Baker/Li got an Absolute Discharge on these charges does this except him from having to be monitored though?. Millions of diabetic people administer their own injections daily, some several times a day. Are they letting Baker/Li administer his own injections. If so, wrong on all levels.
    From some of what I've read the wording from the Psychiatrist and other professionals that have seen him is that they are trusting him to administer his own meds. They have stated they feel he fully comprehends his disease and that he needs to continue to take his medication. They have stated they have no concerns regarding this patient. In order to get the absolute discharge it had to be decided that Vince Li posed no risk to the public.

    Depot administration btw, is by injection, administered at a facility (not oral or self administered) and is used typically with high risk patients that are either likely to relapse, with significant problems, that may not take their medications orally on their own. This indeed is what was occurring with Vince Li as his drug use was being controlled and monitored while living out in the community (he already has been). The absolute discharge means no criminal record, no conditions, none. He's absolutely free to do what he chooses and now with a different name (a common name) that in as little as a few weeks will be forgotten by all who remember him as Vince Li.

    Now here's what gets me. None of the treatment professionals involved could raise any concerns with this patient and all see him as a model, compliant patient. But this is their experience with him in a controlled treatment facility and with constant support and monitoring. This would be Li functioning optimally with every support available. The trouble is NONE of these treatment professionals have seen Li in full blown delusional Schizophrenic mode as he's hacking the head off a bus passenger and cannibalizing him. Its as if theres no realization of the person having committed this heinous act. To the professionals he's just good Mr Baker that listens to everything. Now I don't want to seem flippant about this. I've worked in the Mental Health field for over 3 decades but this leads me to know full well the susceptibilities that can occur in client professional relationship and how the counselling process can desensitize one from an open and impartial understanding of a patients complete issues and risks. In long term professional relationships something occurs, a type of bonding, whereby if the patient is compliant the professional feels connected and advocates for the patient and to degrees that seemingly lose sight of what the same patient has been capable of. This is a phenomenon that should be much better understood in the counseling and Psychiatric community and largely isn't.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-02-2017 at 09:49 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  26. #26
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    Now onto this.

    Yet another instance in which CBC is reduced to a propaganda device delivering patronizing and placating articles and headlines that seem designed to pacify the public re; concerns on any issue.

    Article titled;

    "Offenders deemed not criminally responsible unlikely to reoffend: experts"

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...erts-1.2979284

    Now the trouble with this article is that there are differential findings on this subject and that the conclusion "Your chances are greater of being struck by lightning than being killed by an NCR person." should be read as ludicrous. That the CBC would publish inane comments like that or that they would be offered by prominent Psychiatric professionals is shocking. Now that's an older article, but its being cited a lot now to back up this release and yet these counter findings exist on recidivism of violent offenders that espose the reoffending risk.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629414/

    So as in anything its which source do you want to believe. The typical CBC pandering that is designed to placate the public to unconcern, or a much more involved and detailed study providing the actual information. As per usual the CBC article is trash. It should be offensive to anybody.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-02-2017 at 10:11 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  27. #27

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    The system's likely inability to solve any substantive issues is what blew me away as I learned that most social services apparently provide only short term intervention with very little long term continuity and continuance, plus recipients face ever changing personnel. I heard that six months of assistance is common among social work.
    Last edited by KC; 12-02-2017 at 11:16 AM.

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