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Thread: US, per Obama instructions, doesn't veto Israel Settlement Condemnation by UN

  1. #1

    Default US, per Obama instructions, doesn't veto Israel Settlement Condemnation by UN

    Its been a while since we had an Israel thread. I think Obama finally did something right, the settlements are inexcusable, to steal another peoples land on religious grounds is obscene. But, politically, this is bad news for DNC, which relies heavily (like the Republicans do) on donations from Jewish groups in the US. It seems Israel has evidence the US didn't just not veto, they helped design the motion:

    Doubling down on its public break with the Obama administration, a furious Israeli government said Tuesday it had received "ironclad" information from Arab sources that Washington actively helped craft last week's UN resolution declaring Israeli settlements illegal.

    The allegations further poisoned the increasingly toxic atmosphere between Israel and the outgoing Obama administration in the wake of Friday's vote, and raised questions about whether the White House might take further action against Israeli settlements during Barack Obama's final weeks in office.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/palesti...tion-1.3913241

    Trump of course has spoken out against this. An interesting consideration is where Canada would stand. If Canada wants to win a seat on security Council, it will need to condemn not condone Israel. That's not Canadian government policy (under Liberals and Conservatives), which IMO is why Canada couldn't win a seat under Harper and won't win one under Trudeau no matter how many UN parties he and his ministers go to.

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    Alan Dershowitz Trump was right to try to stop Obama.

    "He will go down in history--President Obama--as one of the worst foreign policy presidents ever. What he did to Syria, and what he did, and was partially responsible for, in Aleppo, creating a vacuum for Russia. I have to tell you, you know, I supported his domestic policy, I liked him on Supreme Court appointments, but he created a terrible conflict for people, many like me, liberal Democrats who support his domestic policy but think he was an appalling, appalling president when it came to foreign policy."

    He sure will, weak president. Big ego.

  3. #3

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    Worst historical foreign policy legacy? Gonna be Trump no question.

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    ^I agree that blindly supporting everything Israel does, will be a foreign policy mistake by Trump (although its one that previous presidents, prior to Obama, also did, its also one that Canadian PM's naively follow). Its to early to say on other foreign policy issues though, clearly Trump was correct to state Obama was wrong to try and wage a proxy war on Assad.

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    Well Hamas is very pleased! ( sheesh)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Alan Dershowitz Trump was right to try to stop Obama.

    "He will go down in history--President Obama--as one of the worst foreign policy presidents ever. What he did to Syria, and what he did, and was partially responsible for, in Aleppo, creating a vacuum for Russia. I have to tell you, you know, I supported his domestic policy, I liked him on Supreme Court appointments, but he created a terrible conflict for people, many like me, liberal Democrats who support his domestic policy but think he was an appalling, appalling president when it came to foreign policy."

    He sure will, weak president. Big ego.
    What he did to Syria? Interesting because it seems he did little to nothing with Syria. Syria did a whole lot to itself. The US, or in this case the US President, is always damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

    It's also interesting that Bush-Iraq and a decade of war there doesn't seem to count as foreign policy gone slightly astray? Or for that matter the little skirmish in Vietnam a few decades ago. Or Europe somewhat re-embracing the US under Obama doesn't count either? Or the possible inroads towards peace with Iran, though highly debatable depending on what the real-reality is there with their nukes, doesn't count either?

    ....or is it that Syria now poses a risk to peace in the Middle East because Assad was NOT overthrown?

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    Obama has made friends enemies, and enemies friends. Everyone knows his foreign policy sucks! Sucks bigtime. Think what you like, the guys out of his league, sort of like our cream puff! Bye Bye Mr O! Thank god!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Obama has made friends enemies, and enemies friends. Everyone knows his foreign policy sucks! Sucks bigtime. Think what you like, the guys out of his league, sort of like our cream puff! Bye Bye Mr O! Thank god!
    Yeah unfortunately that may be the case. The old: your either for us or you're against us system. Under Trump the US will let us know who, what, when and where our troops will be going. As for Trump sticking with old alliances, we've already know that those loyalties mean nothing to him. He's sees himself as the alpha-dog. He'll fight when he wants to but not necessarily when expected.

    BTW, my own father had to renounce his dual CDN-US citizenship to join our forces in WWII. I believe because the US didn't follow us into battle. We'll see how that works when/if Trump takes on some nation and Canada hesitates.
    Last edited by KC; 27-12-2016 at 09:48 PM.

  9. #9

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    Kerry is giving a speech right now on why a two state solution is necessary. He is correctly pointing out how the Palestinians have almost no rights and are given no development permits, while Israel is settling / stealing their land. Its not what Americans or Canadians are used to hearing from their news media, but it is true - basically Israel is implementing apartheid. If you are Palestinian, you are dirt and have to live in controlled enclaves which cannot be expanded. If you are Jewish and believe the true religion, you can do what you want, can build nice resorts on the dead sea, land which is not yours, and the state will back you up because GOD says the land belongs to you. No doubt Kerry will be called an anti-Semite for getting close to saying this.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-12-2016 at 11:13 AM.

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    Yeah I'm watching it. The follow up coverage though will focus on the sound bites and leave out all his meaningful content.

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    Kerry is useless.Has he mentioned Hamas yet? No?

  12. #12

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    No problem. Trump will take of it.



    John Kerry warns Israel over peace deal with Palestinians - BBC News
    In two tweets issued on Wednesday morning New York time, Mr Trump said: "We cannot continue to let Israel be treated with such total disdain and disrespect.
    "They used to have a great friend in the US, but... not anymore. The beginning of the end was the horrible Iran deal, and now this (UN)! Stay strong Israel, January 20th is fast approaching!"
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu replied on Twitter: "President-elect Trump, thank you for your warm friendship and your clear-cut support for Israel!"

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38451258
    Last edited by KC; 28-12-2016 at 11:27 AM.

  13. #13

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    He'll bomb the $hit out of them using those nuclear weapons that are just sitting around doing nothing.

    Two problems solved.
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  14. #14

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    ^Israel has its own nuclear weapons (which it developed with the help of its former best friend, the white lead apartheid state of South Africa, which it emulates today in its policies against Palestinans).

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^Israel has its own nuclear weapons (which it developed with the help of its former best friend, the white lead apartheid state of South Africa, which it emulates today in its policies against Palestinans).
    You don't sound like a friend of Israel.

  16. #16

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    ^I'm a friend of balance, people who grew up outside North America (the media in North America is controlled by pro Israel groups), understand that the US is totally out of line unconditionally supporting a country that refuses to allow its indigenous population to live freely / prosper. Its no coincidence that I grew up in New Zealand, but that New Zealand sponsored the resolution speaking out against the illegal settlements. There is almost universal consensus outside North America and Israel that the settlements are wrong / damaging to peace.

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    http://www.dailywire.com/news/11858/...on-ben-shapiro

    This isn’t a major shock from the Obama administration, which has a long, inglorious history of Jew-hating activity when it comes to Israel. This is the same administration that signed an Iran deal that puts Israel’s very existence in jeopardy, that forced Israel to apologize for attempting to blockade arms shipments to the terrorist group Hamas, that tried to stymie Israel’s ability to defend herself during a rocket war with Hamas, that pressures Israel consistently to make concessions to would-be Jew-murderers, that goes silent when American Jews are killed in Israel, that funds a terrorist unity government.

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    Obama and Kerry are on their way out so I can't see why their policies or principals are even significant today.

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    Lame ducks, both of them.

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    How can they claim it's occupied Palestinian land when there has never been a country of Palestine?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    How can they claim it's occupied Palestinian land when there has never been a country of Palestine?
    The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel
    By Jeremy R. Hammond | Oct 26, 2010
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...rael/view-all/

  22. #22

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    Kerry: 'The settler agenda is defining the future of Israel'
    http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-476780


    Kerry Attacks Israeli Government, Defends UN Resolution
    http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...un-resolution/

  23. #23

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    Dershowitz: ‘Money Counts At the UN,’ U.S. Should Threaten To Defund UN Over Anti-Israel Bias
    http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/...i-israel-bias/

  24. #24

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    ^why are you posting random extremist stuff? If means something to you, then comment on it. That link makes no sense, if the US defunds the UN, it loses its vote and its veto, so can never protect Israel again (not to mention will lose the UN HQ in NYC, as a New Yorker Trump isn't going to do that).
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-12-2016 at 04:35 PM.

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    Is that such a loss? Look at who is in the UN?

  26. #26

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    Israel, along with the rest of the middle east, is a big steaming pile of crap. Everyone's killing each other over their slightly-different interpretation of a completely non-existant sky wizard. I can't wait until they either grow up or kill each other entirely. One day humanity will move past religious wars.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    How can they claim it's occupied Palestinian land when there has never been a country of Palestine?
    Ralph; How can you claim that you own your house and the land that your house sits upon when there has never been a country of ralph60?
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    How can they claim it's occupied Palestinian land when there has never been a country of Palestine?
    Ralph; How can you claim that you own your house and the land that your house sits upon when there has never been a country of ralph60?
    Because it's in an actual country? That would be "Canada."
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

  29. #29

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    ^Palestine is a region that has been recognized through antiquity, but it has almost always been under occupation. The British were the last occupiers. It was supposed to split then into two nations, Palestine, and Israel, one for the each of the religious groups. If Israel wants to claim all the Palestinan territories, fine, but they then have to give Israeli citizenship to all the Palestinian people, giving them the vote. It could no longer be a Jewish state then, given such a large percentage of its population, likely just over half, would be arab. A historical and accurate comparison is South Africa allowing black people to vote. All of a sudden, white people weren't in charge anymore. That is not what most Israelis want, they don't want to be under Arab leadership, just like many whites in South Africa didn't want to be under black leadership. The white South African regime also called the ANC terrorists, just like the Jewish regime calls the Palestinian groups terrorists, its much the same.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-12-2016 at 05:25 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    How can they claim it's occupied Palestinian land when there has never been a country of Palestine?
    Ralph; How can you claim that you own your house and the land that your house sits upon when there has never been a country of ralph60?
    ralph60 "owns" his house and the land that it sits upon under the authority and laws of the country in which it is located. it isn't dependent upon how that land was first acquired by canada. in fact, many would assume - and rightfully so in some cases - that the land was never rightfully acquired by canada. where that is the case, regardless of how that land was acquired and passed on, reparation is made by the state, not by the individual and that reparation is invariably monetary and not physical. and that's the precedent not only in canada but in south africa, new zealand, australia, tazmania...

    as for the thread topic itself, it should be merged with one of the previous ones. there is no real new ground here and no more likelihood of open discussion or changing of opinions in this one as in the others.
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    Actually Moa, the last occupiers of the region before Israel was Jordan. They took control of it in 1948 and annexed it in 1950.

  32. #32

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    Palestine is a de jure sovereign state that is recognised by 136 members of the UN.

    On Thursday, 29 November 2012, in a 138–9 vote (with 41 abstaining) General Assembly resolution 67/19 passed, upgrading Palestine to "non-member observer state" status in the United Nations. The new status equates Palestine's with that of the Holy See. The change in status was described by The Independent as "de facto recognition of the sovereign state of Palestine". Voting "no" were Canada, the Czech Republic, Israel, the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Panama and the United States of America.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

    Do you believe the road to peace in the Middle East is in a two state or one state solution?
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    The only reason this is an issue in my opinion is because it's Israel. If Jordan still had control of the West Bank there would be silence. The calls for a Palestinian state would not even resonate. It would not even be a hypothetical ask.

    Most of the Arab states and the Palestinians themselves will not be satisfied even if a Palestinian state is created unless it eventually leads to the destruction of the state of Israel full stop and a purge of any Jewish identity in the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Palestine is a de jure sovereign state that is recognised by 136 members of the UN.

    Do you believe the road to peace in the Middle East is in a two state or one state solution?
    This is the fundamental question regarding the resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. One state or two?

    The New York Times had an interesting editorial on the subject.

    What could be the endgame, if it does not include a Palestinian state? Mr. Kerry warned that without a two-state solution, Israel faces a choice between being a Jewish state and a democracy. If Israel annexes the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, this logic goes, Palestinians, many of whom are Muslims, would become the majority in the resulting state of Israel. At that point, Israelis could give these Palestinians full rights as citizens, thus diluting the Jewish character of their nation, or deny them rights and forsake democracy.

    But the Israeli far right has long imagined a different scenario: Egypt would be somehow induced to take control of the Gaza Strip, while Israel would hold most of the West Bank and somehow offload the bulk of its Palestinian residents into Jordan. Jerusalem, presumably, would be entirely under Israeli control.

    This one-state solution may remain a fantasy, but itís gathering adherents. In an opinion piece in The Wall Street Journal on Monday, John Bolton, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and a former American ambassador to the United Nations, advanced just this scenario. Mr. Bolton is said to be on President-elect Donald Trumpís list as a possible deputy secretary of state.
    The one-state solution of the far right in Israel and the US is the same one Hamas advocates. Except that Hamas wants the Jewish residents of Palestine to be offloaded into the United States and Europe.

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    The ignorance of history in here is staggering i . There is not a more documented land in all the world to who 1st ruled it to the babylonians . Jacob who the land was named after and his 12 sons the 12 tribes of Isreal that split up the former land of caanan was 100 % Jewish and that land was settled long before Palestine people ever settled there. And Moses brought the people back to the Land from the exdous from Eygpt and Moses of course is a decedent of Jacob who was his great great Grandfather The romans conqured the land in 70 AD under Titus. Palestinians 1st laid foot on the land in the late 7th century.
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  36. #36

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    Yes, the ignorance of history is truly staggering especially those who ignore anything more than an Old Testament view of history. Who is sure of the history of the Palestinians? Palestine is just a name of a people grouped together by colonial powers. That does not mean that the area was 100% Jewish at any time. In fact the biblical records state all types of peoples within and beyond the areas occupied by Israel. The key word is occupied. The area is one of the most disputed in all of history with constantly changing occupiers. Jerusalem itself has Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters


    Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

    If you look at the facts, Jewish control of Jerusalem has been less than 500 years in the past 4,000. So tell me, how does anyone determine who really owns anything in the Middle East?

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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    The only reason this is an issue in my opinion is because it's Israel. If Jordan still had control of the West Bank there would be silence. The calls for a Palestinian state would not even resonate. It would not even be a hypothetical ask.
    So, lets say, Canada decided, that First Nations people were no longer allowed to vote, and placed them all in reservations. You would be ok with that? That's what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the occupied territories who have been there for generations, they aren't granting them Israeli citizenship, because if they did, then Israel wouldn't be a Jewish state anymore. If you aren't going to let them vote, then you have to let them have a nation. Either that, or its genocide (what the Jewish / Christian god has promoted in the past with these issues) or expulsion (why would any other country feel obliged to take a people away from their homeland?). Those are the choices. The legitimate two are a State for the Palestinians, or granting them citizenship. Kerry correctly pointed out if its the later, which it seems are headed towards, then Israel will no longer be a legitimate democracy unless it ceases to choose to be Jewish state - i.e. grants the Palestinians the vote (in his long winded rambling manner).

    Since Israel wants to remain a Jewish state and not a secular one like Canada, this is the only answer, and it is completely inconsistent with building settlements:

    The principles included borders between Israel and a Palestinian state based on 1967 lines with land swaps; recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and an independent state of Palestine; accepting Jerusalem as a capital for both states; enabling normalized relations; and providing for Palestinian refugees and Israeli security needs.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/john-ker...nts-1482944129
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-12-2016 at 08:52 AM.

  38. #38

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    Moahunter, your analogy is an excellent example of the unfairness of the situation. The Palestinians were displaced after WWII and were promised that they would be placed in refugee camps for only one or two years and then they would be granted a homeland. That never happened and they live in the worst humanitarian conditions with an illegal embargo on nearly everything that has even included chocolate, soccer balls, wheelchairs, crayons and musical instruments. A collective punishment of an entire group because of actions of a few who are frustrated by the generational imprisonment of their people and choose to fight back with rocks and almost useless home made rockets against a massively armed Israeli army and airforce including attack jets, cluster bombs and tanks. Israel receives $3 Billion USD of US military aid that they use to pound the Palestinians into the stone age.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    The only reason this is an issue in my opinion is because it's Israel. If Jordan still had control of the West Bank there would be silence. The calls for a Palestinian state would not even resonate. It would not even be a hypothetical ask.
    So, lets say, Canada decided, that First Nations people were no longer allowed to vote, and placed them all in reservations. You would be ok with that? That's what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the occupied territories who have been there for generations, they aren't granting them Israeli citizenship, because if they did, then Israel wouldn't be a Jewish state anymore. If you aren't going to let them vote, then you have to let them have a nation. Either that, or its genocide (what the Jewish / Christian god has promoted in the past with these issues) or expulsion (why would any other country feel obliged to take a people away from their homeland?). Those are the choices. The legitimate two are a State for the Palestinians, or granting them citizenship. Kerry correctly pointed out if its the later, which it seems are headed towards, then Israel will no longer be a legitimate democracy unless it ceases to choose to be Jewish state - i.e. grants the Palestinians the vote (in his long winded rambling manner).

    Since Israel wants to remain a Jewish state and not a secular one like Canada, this is the only answer, and it is completely inconsistent with building settlements:

    The principles included borders between Israel and a Palestinian state based on 1967 lines with land swaps; recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and an independent state of Palestine; accepting Jerusalem as a capital for both states; enabling normalized relations; and providing for Palestinian refugees and Israeli security needs.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/john-ker...nts-1482944129
    What makes a "legitimate" democracy is highly debatable. As we all know, majority popular vote doesn't necessarily equate to winning elections. So there's likely all kinds of ways democracy could be sliced and diced and limited in a one state solution. However, when one or both religions require total spiritual as well as political control over their followers plus everyone else in a physical territory that's just not going to happen.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    As we all know, majority popular vote doesn't necessarily equate to winning elections.
    Israel has proportional representation for the people it allows to vote (i.e. those who don't live in Palestinian territories) - so the majority popular vote there does hold sway, as does the minority vote, due to the nature of their system which doesn't require minimum support - extremist religious groups have a lot of power as coalition deal makers. That's why the settlements keep being built, even though its inconsistent with a two state solution.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-12-2016 at 09:42 AM.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Yes, the ignorance of history is truly staggering especially those who ignore anything more than an Old Testament view of history. Who is sure of the history of the Palestinians? Palestine is just a name of a people grouped together by colonial powers. That does not mean that the area was 100% Jewish at any time. In fact the biblical records state all types of peoples within and beyond the areas occupied by Israel. The key word is occupied. The area is one of the most disputed in all of history with constantly changing occupiers. Jerusalem itself has Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters


    Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

    If you look at the facts, Jewish control of Jerusalem has been less than 500 years in the past 4,000. So tell me, how does anyone determine who really owns anything in the Middle East?

    Great post. My understanding is that many Palestinians just considered themselves as Arabs. If anything it was largely tribal countryside.

    Additionally, democracy never ruled those lands. Rule was determined by the most aggressive people to occupy the land at any one time, and if it was ever 100% anything, that's only likely if they forced religious conversion on people(s) or forced others off the land or prevented the many nomadic peoples/traders off the land.
    Last edited by KC; 29-12-2016 at 09:45 AM.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel
    By Jeremy R. Hammond | Oct 26, 2010
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...rael/view-all/
    Thank you for this excellent link. It should be a first read before anyone comments on this subject.
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    Who is really owns the land of Israel ?? Abraham is the father of Hebrew people.

    Genesis 12:1-7

    12 The Lord said to Abram, “Leave your country, your relatives, and your father’s family, and go to the land I will show you.
    2 I will make you a great nation,
    and I will bless you.
    I will make you famous,
    and you will be a blessing to others.
    3 I will bless those who bless you,
    and I will place a curse on those who harm you.
    And all the people on earth
    will be blessed through you.”


    4 So Abram left Haran as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. At this time Abram was 75 years old. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and everything they owned, as well as all the servants they had gotten in Haran. They set out from Haran, planning to go to the land of Canaan, and in time they arrived there.
    6 Abram traveled through that land as far as the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. The Canaanites were living in the land at that time. 7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your descendants.” So Abram built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

    so now you see, Obama wants 2 state solution. what does Palestinians wants ??

    Here the answer



    Palestinians want Samaria and Judea, so why is so important to them ? it is about Temple mount.
    if there were to have 2 state solution, it will make Israel defenseless and vulnerable to attacks by enemies.

    that is why Israel will never give up the land to their enemies and will continue keep building homes for Jewish people.
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  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel
    By Jeremy R. Hammond | Oct 26, 2010
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...rael/view-all/
    Thank you for this excellent link. It should be a first read before anyone comments on this subject.
    Except it's all history and nearly everyone involved in the 1920s is long dead as are many from the '40s.

    What's interesting is that inheritance and 'property'/cultural rights are supreme the world over. Whether it's land or religion or language, or culture, everyone alive always believes that they have an inalienable right to what a prior generation possessed (often by blood-lines) even if it was stolen in the first place or even if the prior generation only had it as a result of coercion.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    that is why Israel will never give up the land to their enemies and will continue keep building homes for Jewish people.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    Which is sad, they should learn to love their neighbor, and share their land. If they want one state, one country - fine. But give Palestinians then in the occupied territories the rights of Israelis, the right to vote - Israel becomes no longer a Jewish state, but a modern secular state like Canada.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    Who is really owns the land of Israel ?? Abraham is the father of Hebrew people.

    Genesis 12:1-7

    [FONT="]12 The Lord said to Abram, “Leave your country, your relatives, and your father’s family, and go to the land I will show you.[/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="]2 I will make you a great nation,
    and I will bless you.
    I will make you famous,
    and you will be a blessing to others.
    3 I will bless those who bless you,
    and I will place a curse on those who harm you.
    And all the people on earth
    will be blessed through you.”[/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="]4 So Abram left Haran as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. At this time Abram was 75 years old. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and everything they owned, as well as all the servants they had gotten in Haran. They set out from Haran, planning to go to the land of Canaan, and in time they arrived there.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]6 Abram traveled through that land as far as the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. The Canaanites were living in the land at that time. [/FONT]7 The [FONT="]Lord[/FONT] appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your descendants.” So Abram built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

    so now you see, Obama wants 2 state solution. what does Palestinians wants ??

    Here the answer



    Palestinians want Samaria and Judea, so why is so important to them ? it is about Temple mount.
    if there were to have 2 state solution, it will make Israel defenseless and vulnerable to attacks by enemies.

    that is why Israel will never give up the land to their enemies and will continue keep building homes for Jewish people.
    I gather it sucked to be a Canaanite thereafter. I guess you could say that they had a slight refugee problem on their hands.


    The term Canaanites serves as an ethnic catch-all term covering various indigenous populations - both settled and nomadic-pastoral groups - throughout the regions of the southern Levant or Canaan.[1] It is by far the most frequently used ethnic term in the Bible,[2] which commonly describes Canaanites as a people which, in the Book of Joshua are marked down on a list as one of the nations to be exterminated,[3] and later as a group which the Israelites had annihilated.[4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

    Imagine the conversations. "Say again? You've arrived on 'my' land, my land of many, many generations, because your God promised it to you. So, we were here first. Wouldn't you consider that theft?..."


    bolding is mine
    Promised Land

    The concept of the Promised Land is the central tenet of Zionism, whose discourse suggests that modern Jews descend from the Israelites and Maccabees through whom they inherit the right to re-establish their "national homeland". Palestinians also claim partial descent from the Israelites and Maccabees, as well as all the other peoples who have lived in the region.[1]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_Land
    Last edited by KC; 29-12-2016 at 11:28 AM.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    that is why Israel will never give up the land to their enemies and will continue keep building homes for Jewish people.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    Which is sad, they should learn to love their neighbor, and share their land. If they want one state, one country - fine. But give Palestinians then in the occupied territories the rights of Israelis, the right to vote - Israel becomes no longer a Jewish state, but a modern secular state like Canada.
    And as a minority under another intolerant dominating political religion, they (their religious beliefs or actual people) slowly get exterminated.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    Who is really owns the land of Israel ?? Abraham is the father of Hebrew people.

    Genesis 12:1-7
    Although I believe in the Bible, it has no legal bearing in International Law. History shows that the Muslims have occupied the area for most of the past thousand years. Prior to 1947, Jews only owned some 7% of the land and the rest was owned by Palestinians, Arabs and others.

    In moahunter's analogy, can you imagine the outcry if the First Nations in Canada won the right to take control of more than half of Canada and force the people of Ottawa, Regina, Vancouver and Calgary into refugee camps on the very same reserves they once were forced into for the next 70 years with military force and FN occupy the entire country? As it is in Gaza, where 1.85 people must live in an area less than half the size of Edmonton and are under a constant embargo where even to work or travel outside Gaza you must get permission from either the Israeli or Egyptian governments

    In 2014, the EU's opinion was: "Today, Gaza is facing a dangerous and pressing humanitarian and economic situation with power outages across Gaza for up to 16 hours a day and, as a consequence, the closure of sewage pumping operations, reduced access to clean water; a reduction in medical supplies and equipment; the cessation of imports of construction materials; rising unemployment, rising prices and increased food insecurity. If left unaddressed, the situation could have serious consequences for stability in Gaza, for security more widely in the region as well as for the peace process itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    that is why Israel will never give up the land to their enemies and will continue keep building homes for Jewish people.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    Which is sad, they should learn to love their neighbor, and share their land. If they want one state, one country - fine. But give Palestinians then in the occupied territories the rights of Israelis, the right to vote - Israel becomes no longer a Jewish state, but a modern secular state like Canada.
    Learn to love Hamas?Right!

  50. #50

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    ^there wouldn't be a Hamas if there wasn't an oppressed people in an occupied territory.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^there wouldn't be a Hamas if there wasn't an oppressed people in an occupied territory.
    I'm a know nothing on all this but my guess is that there would be. There would still be the battle for the 'ancient' lands.

    Look at other disputed territories around the world. Places no one would ever want to live on but nations will go to war over them for other reasons.

    Also, the 'occupied' territories are somewhat occupied by people that have lived there for centuries, its just a matter of who is (or what label the leaders describe themselves with) in control at any point in time. Look at Ukraine and Crimea.


    Some biased information/propaganda but maybe truth to it as well.

    Arab-Israeli Conflict: Role of religion

    Syrian columnist Khayri Hama:
    "... the conflict with the Zionist enemy has never been a border issue, nor an interstate conflict but rather a total confrontation concerning the survival of our [Arab] nationalism . . . against threats posed by the Israeli entity."
    From Syrian daily Al-Ba'th, July 26, 1994

    ...Many Islamist groups already declare that their aim is to re-establish one Muslim Nation (Islamic ummah) encompassing all Muslim nations, ruled by Islamic law replacing secular governments. "


    "...The Islamic-Arab intolerance against non-Moslems is not limited to Jews (see: Islamic-Arab Persecution of Christians). Throughout centuries Arabs have systematically persecuted and ousted both Christians and Jews. The sizable Christian communities in Arab countries have dwindled to insignificant numbers with the mass emigration of Christians. The Jewish refugees from Arab countries were mostly absorbed by the modern State of Israel, whereas the Christians have emigrated to Europe and America"



    http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict-2.asp
    Last edited by KC; 29-12-2016 at 12:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^there wouldn't be a Hamas if there wasn't an oppressed people in an occupied territory.

    So they would just stop digging tunnels,with the intent to kill.Right!
    What about Iran, they want to wipe Israel off the map, Hamas agrees!

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    What about Iran, they want to wipe Israel off the map, Hamas agrees!
    If Israel was a secular state with Muslims and Jews, and other religions, living together, why would Iran want to wipe them out? The reason they do at the moment, is because it is a Jewish state, oppressing / preventing certain Muslim people (the Palestinians in the occupied territories) from having a reasonable life. There are only two solutions that can result in peace - two religious states, or one secular state.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-12-2016 at 01:03 PM.

  54. #54

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    ^^ Hello Lady, you have such a myopic view of a huge problem.

    It's like saying that if the people in the Warsaw Ghetto did not try to escape or fight back, all would be peaceful...
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 29-12-2016 at 01:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^^ Hello Lady, you have such a myopic view of a huge problem.


    It's like saying that if the people in the Warsaw Ghetto did not try to escape or fight back, all would be peaceful...
    We have good friends in Israel, that know far more than you! I'll take them at their word.

  56. #56

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    ^so what are your friends solution? Keep the Palestinians in a ghetto? Very humane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel
    By Jeremy R. Hammond | Oct 26, 2010
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...rael/view-all/
    Thank you for this excellent link. It should be a first read before anyone comments on this subject.
    an excellent link indeed... from the same site that publishes articles on 9/11 insider trading because we all know who is responsible for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^^ Hello Lady, you have such a myopic view of a huge problem.

    It's like saying that if the people in the Warsaw Ghetto did not try to escape or fight back, all would be peaceful...
    it's like no such thing. and using false equivalencies doesn't help in carrying on constructive discussion.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  59. #59

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    ^So why doesn't Israel give the Palestinians in the occupied territories the right to vote, if it isn't willing to give them a country? Its pretty clear where the Israelis learned their lessons of oppressing / controlling people from, its sad, a child born in Palestine is every bit as good a person as a child born in Tel Aviv.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-12-2016 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ...
    as for the thread topic itself, it should be merged with one of the previous ones. there is no real new ground here and no more likelihood of open discussion or changing of opinions in this one as in the others.
    not to say "i told you so" but "i told you so".
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  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ...
    as for the thread topic itself, it should be merged with one of the previous ones. there is no real new ground here and no more likelihood of open discussion or changing of opinions in this one as in the others.
    not to say "i told you so" but "i told you so".
    Talking to yourself doesn't make your acceptance of the oppression / prevention of voting rights or statehood, of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories right. There are no personal attacks here, I realize its painful to face realities, spelled out by Kerry, that you don't like though.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ...
    as for the thread topic itself, it should be merged with one of the previous ones. there is no real new ground here and no more likelihood of open discussion or changing of opinions in this one as in the others.
    not to say "i told you so" but "i told you so".
    Right you are. It's never going to go away.

    It's also fascinating that the middle east seems to attract such a disproportionate share of political, media and personal attention and emotional positioning. (And that doesn't even count the massive war and peace making budgetary dollars.) The world is a big place with problems near everywhere but all the focus goes to this little part of the world.

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    The Myth of the U.N. Creation of Israel
    By Jeremy R. Hammond | Oct 26, 2010
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...rael/view-all/
    Thank you for this excellent link. It should be a first read before anyone comments on this subject.
    an excellent link indeed... from the same site that publishes articles on 9/11 insider trading because we all know who is responsible for that.

    I also provided a somewhat anti-Islam link and quotes from the: Israel Science and Technology website - www.science.co.il

    I think it may be equally deserving of some criticism for possible bias as well.

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ...
    as for the thread topic itself, it should be merged with one of the previous ones. there is no real new ground here and no more likelihood of open discussion or changing of opinions in this one as in the others.
    not to say "i told you so" but "i told you so".
    Talking to yourself doesn't make your acceptance of the oppression / prevention of voting rights or statehood, of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories right. There are no personal attacks here, I realize its painful to face realities, spelled out by Kerry, that you don't like though.
    A defence of a position doesn't necessarily imply acceptance of a situation. Similarly, Canadians being opposed to taking in Syrian refugees doesn't imply their acceptance of their mistreatment and oppression in Syria. Acceptance is often just that, acceptance and in these cases, it's acceptance of a bad situation including the suffering of some people in the hope it will eventually get better.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^^ Hello Lady, you have such a myopic view of a huge problem.


    It's like saying that if the people in the Warsaw Ghetto did not try to escape or fight back, all would be peaceful...
    We have good friends in Israel, that know far more than you! I'll take them at their word.
    All of my Jewish friends agree with a peaceful two state solution.
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    Well, good for them. My Jewish friends live there, so I'm very pro Israel.

  67. #67

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    So tell us great oracle, what is their suggestions to solve the ongoing situation?
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    Why? When you already agree with the very petty Obama?

  69. #69

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    Keep avoiding the question. We have plenty of popcorn...

    ...we'll wait until you formulate an opinion and then imply that your friends are all on board.
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    Do you honestly believe Obama would have pulled this anti-Israeli crap if we were talking about president-elect Hillary? No way. Instead, I bet Obama relishing in having hit Netanyahu, the country of Israel AND Trump with a single shot. Such an extremist position and action, its no wonder no one appears to agree with what he did.

  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Do you honestly believe Obama would have pulled this anti-Israeli crap if we were talking about president-elect Hillary? No way. Instead, I bet Obama relishing in having hit Netanyahu, the country of Israel AND Trump with a single shot. Such an extremist position and action, its no wonder no one appears to agree with what he did.
    He is actually doing Trump a favour here - he plays bad guy and Donald gets to be nice guy to Israel. I suppose it is easier when you are leaving to say some things that have been on your mind for a while, which probably have already been said privately anyways. I don't think it is so much driven by a dislike for Netanyahu, as a frustration with him.

  72. #72

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    Netanyahu is the Israeli version of Trump. Many people don't like his right wing views and the extremists he panders to, to keep in power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Do you honestly believe Obama would have pulled this anti-Israeli crap if we were talking about president-elect Hillary? No way. Instead, I bet Obama relishing in having hit Netanyahu, the country of Israel AND Trump with a single shot. Such an extremist position and action, its no wonder no one appears to agree with what he did.
    He is actually doing Trump a favour here - he plays bad guy and Donald gets to be nice guy to Israel. I suppose it is easier when you are leaving to say some things that have been on your mind for a while, which probably have already been said privately anyways. I don't think it is so much driven by a dislike for Netanyahu, as a frustration with him.
    The two have never liked one another. I just find Obama incredibly petty. I have since his line he drew, and then erased..

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    Expelled Russian diplomats and brought in sanctions. This guy is losing it. Couldn't he just go to Hawaii surfing for a couple of weeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Expelled Russian diplomats and brought in sanctions. This guy is losing it. Couldn't he just go to Hawaii surfing for a couple of weeks?
    LOL,great post!

  76. #76

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    Shallow and petty on your part...
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    It's like Obama is cleaning out his office and thinking what have I forgotten before I'm done. Oh ya, start a war with Russia, almost forgot. Jesus, did Trump pay him to do this? Trump will look like a hero coming in to save the day. Idiotic if you ask me. Dems are looking worse by the minute. Just think if Hillary had gotten in. She would be looking for revenge and then some, add her failing foreign policy and no one to stop it we would be in it deep.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 30-12-2016 at 10:31 AM.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It's like Obama is cleaning out his office and thinking what have I forgotten before I'm done. Oh ya, start a war with Russia, almost forgot. Jesus, did Trump pay him to do this? Trump will look like a hero coming in to save the day. Idiotic if you ask me. Dems are looking worse by the minute. Just think if Hillary had gotten in. She would be looking for revenge and then some, add her failing foreign policy and no one to stop it we would be in it deep.
    Or Putin saying: How do I become the new Czar of the Soviet Union? Oh, right, make sure "our man" is in place in the USA

    As for Hillary seeking revenge? I don't think she was anywhere near as emotional as Trump. She'd have just continued on with whatever crazy strategy it is, that the US seems to be playing against Russia.

    I like Trump's approach to Russia, but I sure don't know what is really going on. I suspect that the people able to read the secret hacked communications of each country really know how the world works. (Those people would be Putin, Obama and Clinton, CIA, NSA, etc).
    Last edited by KC; 30-12-2016 at 10:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It's like Obama is cleaning out his office and thinking what have I forgotten before I'm done. Oh ya, start a war with Russia, almost forgot. Jesus, did Trump pay him to do this? Trump will look like a hero coming in to save the day. Idiotic if you ask me. Dems are looking worse by the minute. Just think if Hillary had gotten in. She would be looking for revenge and then some, add her failing foreign policy and no one to stop it we would be in it deep.

    Putin made me grin,he is not sending anyone back to the US. He made Obama look small and petty, and I'm no fan of Putin!.

  80. #80

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    Right...
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    Yes right! The democrats have had their hissy fit, people are looking at Obama and shaking their heads. Go Trump!

    Happy new year!

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    Default facebook emulates c2e...

    [IMG]sub-buzz-21306-1479490053-1 by cdnklc, on Flickr[/IMG]
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  83. #83

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    as c2e emulates the middle eastern peace making efforts
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    facebook emulates c2e...
    [IMG]sub-buzz-21306-1479490053-1 by cdnklc, on Flickr[/IMG]

  84. #84

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    Yeah, and???

    This is news to you Ken?

    The fun is not in the winning, it is making the cheap shots along the way. LOL
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  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It's like Obama is cleaning out his office and thinking what have I forgotten before I'm done. Oh ya, start a war with Russia, almost forgot. Jesus, did Trump pay him to do this? Trump will look like a hero coming in to save the day. Idiotic if you ask me. Dems are looking worse by the minute. Just think if Hillary had gotten in. She would be looking for revenge and then some, add her failing foreign policy and no one to stop it we would be in it deep.

    Putin made me grin,he is not sending anyone back to the US. He made Obama look small and petty, and I'm no fan of Putin!.
    ...but it seems you're more of an enemy of a Canadian ally? Why?

    Now, let's just suppose that what the US intelligence services have is incontrovertible proof that the Russian state actively and covertly tried to throw the US election. So, it's not like just blowing up a building or downing a plane and killing a few US citizens (what many would consider an act of war), but actually changing the results of an election by the US's most coveted 'institution' for unknown reasons. (Coveted - somewhat like blowing up the Golden Temple or collapsing the World Trade Centers), Is that not a serious attack?

    Now if the evidence against Russia is incontrovertible and serious, what should the US response be? Nothing?
    Last edited by KC; 30-12-2016 at 12:15 PM.

  86. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    as c2e emulates the middle eastern peace making efforts
    That would be 100% correct
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  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    as c2e emulates the middle eastern peace making efforts
    That would be 100% correct
    Some might say: "Religious people are just plain evil war mongers".

  88. #88

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    You don't have to be religious, to be a just plain evil war monger.
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    If Russia disclosed all the covert misdoings of the CIA, FBI and other US organizations and disorganizations in Russia and around the world I suppose people would be in disbelief of it. If the dems still think they lost the election because of Russia they are in such denial there is no hope. If they could not field a better candidate than Hillary Clinton, oh well. Most anyone else would have beaten Donald Trump. Sad. Move on already. I like the way Putin handled this as well, and do not call me a fan of Putin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If Russia disclosed all the covert misdoings of the CIA, FBI and other US organizations and disorganizations in Russia and around the world I suppose people would be in disbelief of it. If the dems still think they lost the election because of Russia they are in such denial there is no hope. If they could not field a better candidate than Hillary Clinton, oh well. Most anyone else would have beaten Donald Trump. Sad. Move on already. I like the way Putin handled this as well, and do not call me a fan of Putin.

    Bingo!

  91. #91

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    Hamas was helped by Israel to be a counterpoint to the PLO. Much like the US assisted Bin Laden to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, Israel assisted tHamas in the fight against the PLO. Now they've made peace with the PLO (Now the Palestinian Authority) and use Hamas as an excuse to not proceed with a peace plan.

    " To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise.

    At the time, Israel's main enemy was the late Yasser Arafat's Fatah party, which formed the heart of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah was secular and cast in the mold of other revolutionary, leftist guerrilla movements waging insurgencies elsewhere in the world during the Cold War. The PLO carried out assassinations and kidnappings and, although recognized by neighboring Arab states, was considered a terrorist organization by Israel; PLO operatives in the occupied territories faced brutal repression at the hands of the Israeli security state."


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.3d89a7c5914f

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