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Thread: NDP to cap consumer power rates

  1. #1
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    Default NDP to cap consumer power rates

    Decided to start a thread instead of using the old "Trans Alta & Conservative Gov't" thread in the rant section that I started some 5+ years ago. Obviously, the Cons are no longer in power and there's some big changes coming to Alberta's electricity market. Perhaps now that thread can finally be retired and I no longer have to rant about inflated, expensive power and Trans Alta manipulating the market for their bottom line.


    Alberta consumer power rates to be capped for four years

    Alberta's NDP government plans to cap consumer power rates at a maximum of 6.8 cents per kilowatt hour for four years, starting June 1, 2017.

    "Alberta's energy-only electricity market is broken," Premier Rachel Notley said at a news conference in Edmonton on Tuesday. "It will not bring in the kind of investment that will be needed to power Alberta's future."

    The move is the government's first step in moving Alberta away from the deregulated power market that was implemented in the 1990s. More announcements are expected this week.

    Currently, consumers who are not on contracts pay a fluctuating rate based on market prices.

    The government decided on the rate based on the number forecast by private operators five years from now.

    The current average electricity price is 3.8 cents per kilowatt hour.

    The price ceiling will apply to people with a regulated rate option. If the RRO is below 6.8 cents, they will still pay the lower rate.

    Energy Minister Marg McCuaig-Boyd will lead a consultation with consumers and power companies starting in December on ways to reach that cap.

    Don MacIntrye, the Wildrose critic for electricity and renewables, said the government is laying out a larger strategy piece by piece as part of an underlying agenda.

    "As I back up and take a look at the puzzle pieces that are on table, things that we do know now, it is very clear to me that they are going to completely eliminate the deregulated system we currently have," he said.

    MacIntyre said under a deregulated system, power companies fund the construction of infrastructure through the rates they charge from consumers. If the system is regulated, the government takes on the costs of construction, which ultimately costs the taxpayer, he argued.

    Progressive Conservative energy critic Rick Fraser said the price cap shows the government isn't confident the province will have enough electricity when it shuts down coal-fired power plants and tries to replace them with natural gas and renewable energy sources.

    Like MacIntyre, Fraser said people will end up paying more through their taxes.

    "Ratepayers are also taxpayers," he said. "This only amounts to the government putting money into one pocket and taking it out of the other."

    Fraser said the deregulated system gave Albertans reliable power at an affordable price.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-cap-1.3862301


    I have absolutely no issue with this and as a matter of fact I applaud our NDP government for making electricity affordable for the average Albertan.

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    This was one of their campaign promises, so good on the NDP for following through.
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    How about dialling back the transmission and distribution charges and administration fees that make up 60% of my power bill and up to 90% of my gas bill? I don't mind paying a fair market price for energy. I do mind paying though the nose for pipes and wires regardless of how much I actually use them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    How about dialling back the transmission and distribution charges and administration fees that make up 60% of my power bill and up to 90% of my gas bill? I don't mind paying a fair market price for energy. I do mind paying though the nose for pipes and wires regardless of how much I actually use them.
    That's the real problem with the Ontario power bills. Usage doesn't matter as much as it should, with all kinds of fixed added on.

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    Ontario's market is structured very differently than ours. Along with their mix of generation it makes it very difficult to compare one market to another.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Keep in mind that the rates are performance-based & only when the D&T companies meet the expected productivity improvements (aka doing more with the same or less) can they expect to keep pace with inflation:

    As set out in Decision 2012-237, the PBR framework provides a formula mechanism for the annual adjustment of rates. In general, the companies’ rates are adjusted annually by means of an indexing mechanism that tracks the rate of inflation (I) relevant to the prices of inputs less an offset (X) to reflect productivity improvements that the companies can be expected to achieve during the PBR plan period. As a result, with the exception of specified adjustments, a utility’s revenues are no longer linked to its costs. Companies subject to a PBR regime must manage their businesses and service obligations with the revenues derived under the PBR indexing mechanism and adjustments provided for in the formula. The PBR framework is intended to create efficiency incentives similar to those in competitive markets.
    Taken from the most recent Decision from the AUC on the Distribution Tariff, located here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Ontario's market is structured very differently than ours. Along with their mix of generation it makes it very difficult to compare one market to another.
    Not comparing markets, simply stating that in Ontario, if you reduce your usage by 10%, or even 50%, the impact on your bill doesn't mirror this and there is little incentive to reduce your power usage. This needs to be avoided.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Not comparing markets, simply stating that in Ontario, if you reduce your usage by 10%, or even 50%, the impact on your bill doesn't mirror this and there is little incentive to reduce your power usage. This needs to be avoided.
    Yeah, but in Alberta we don't have extremely expensive power plants that need to be maintained & managed appropriately, regardless of usage, else they turn the golden horseshoe into Chernobyl.

    There's costs in Ontario that don't exist here & couldn't exist here due to the differences in how the market/industry is laid out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    How about dialling back the transmission and distribution charges and administration fees that make up 60% of my power bill and up to 90% of my gas bill? I don't mind paying a fair market price for energy. I do mind paying though the nose for pipes and wires regardless of how much I actually use them.
    Hear hear.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    How about dialling back the transmission and distribution charges and administration fees that make up 60% of my power bill and up to 90% of my gas bill? I don't mind paying a fair market price for energy. I do mind paying though the nose for pipes and wires regardless of how much I actually use them.
    Hear hear.
    These days we use maybe 20 cents a month on average of electricity at the lake. Many months it's zero usage. We pay a bit more than that for the privilege.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    How about dialling back the transmission and distribution charges and administration fees that make up 60% of my power bill and up to 90% of my gas bill? I don't mind paying a fair market price for energy. I do mind paying though the nose for pipes and wires regardless of how much I actually use them.
    Agreed, here's hoping in time we see some action on this.

    Here's an opinion piece written today from the Journal (full article posted due to Journal's paywall):

    Graham Thomson: NDP trying to keep electricity-system overhaul from shocking Albertans

    No need to panic.

    Here are the only two things you really need to know about the Alberta government’s plan to dramatically change our electricity system.

    The lights in your home will still go on when you flip the switch.

    The price of electricity will eventually rise but not exorbitantly.

    At least that’s the plan.

    The government is overhauling the province’s electricity market — moving from what’s called an “energy-only” model to a “capacity market.”

    This is the big policy issue right now in the legislature.

    The government is churning out detailed news releases and holding daily technical briefings to inform reporters and opposition politicians how the government’s plan will unfold.

    On Tuesday, Premier Rachel Notley held a hokey news conference in a homeowner’s house to explain one aspect of the plan.

    On Wednesday, Energy Minister Margaret McCuaig-Boyd held a news conference with industry officials to explain another aspect. Given that she had to defer so many times to industry experts to answer difficult questions, she might want to change her title to Minister of Low Energy.

    There’ll be more announcements/reports on Thursday.

    This is a complicated issue.

    The last time an Alberta government massively transformed our electricity system was 16 years ago when then-Premier Ralph Klein deregulated the power market.

    The NDP is not exactly re-regulating the market but it is stepping in where the PCs feared to tread.

    First off, the government is putting a cap on the price of electricity. It won’t be allowed to go above 6.8 cents a kilowatt-hour from June 2017 to June 2021 while the overhaul gradually begins. That’s about double the current rate but not exorbitant given how depressed the price of power is these days.

    The government doesn’t expect a huge spike in prices but costs will inevitably rise as coal-fired power plants are phased out and replaced by natural gas and renewable sources of power such as wind and solar.

    If the price does spike above 6.8 cents, the government will cover the extra cost by using money collected under its new carbon levy.

    Of course, that has the Opposition complaining that consumers will be paying for the new system one way or the other, if not on their monthly power bill then via the carbon tax.

    Even if that does happen, it would be more politically palatable than what happened under Klein’s de-regulation when the price of electricity quadrupled in a year.

    Klein blamed the spike on a booming economy, unexpected breakdowns at generating stations and the high price of natural gas.

    The public, however, blamed him. So, he spent $2 billion on electricity rebates to quell public unrest.

    This time around, the NDP government is getting ahead of any potential price spike with its cap.

    Notley said her government had no option but to overhaul the system.

    “Alberta’s energy-only electricity market is broken,” she said. “It will not bring in the kind of investments that will be needed to power Alberta’s future.”

    Under the current energy-only model, power generators are paid only for the electricity they produce, not how much they are capable of producing. The result has been a market dominated by wild swings in the price of electricity.

    In a capacity market, power producers are paid to build up, even overbuild, capacity so there is always enough electricity in reserve.

    To give you an idea of the relative success of the two models, Texas is the only other jurisdiction in North America to use the energy-only model while 38 states use the capacity market.

    Crown corporations run the electricity systems in most other provinces in Canada.

    McCuaig-Boyd said the government is creating a system “that is more reliable, delivers stable, affordable prices to Albertans, and is attractive to investors.”

    We won’t know if that’s really the case until the new system is in place. It won’t be fully operational until 2024.

    So, again, no need to panic.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...king-albertans

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    How about dialling back the transmission and distribution charges and administration fees that make up 60% of my power bill and up to 90% of my gas bill? I don't mind paying a fair market price for energy. I do mind paying though the nose for pipes and wires regardless of how much I actually use them.
    Rate riders, distribution charges, municipal franchise fee, the list is endless and most are just another word for hidden tax. I would rather not see those on my bill, just tell me the amount to pay and leave me alone. None of those 'extra' fees were ever tackled by the P.C's and yet, as you say, they make up a big chunk of the utility bills. Too many fingers in the pie.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Decided to start a thread instead of using the old "Trans Alta & Conservative Gov't" thread in the rant section that I started some 5+ years ago. Obviously, the Cons are no longer in power and there's some big changes coming to Alberta's electricity market. Perhaps now that thread can finally be retired and I no longer have to rant about inflated, expensive power and Trans Alta manipulating the market for their bottom line.


    Alberta consumer power rates to be capped for four years

    Alberta's NDP government plans to cap consumer power rates at a maximum of 6.8 cents per kilowatt hour for four years, starting June 1, 2017.

    "Alberta's energy-only electricity market is broken," Premier Rachel Notley said at a news conference in Edmonton on Tuesday. "It will not bring in the kind of investment that will be needed to power Alberta's future."

    The move is the government's first step in moving Alberta away from the deregulated power market that was implemented in the 1990s. More announcements are expected this week.

    Currently, consumers who are not on contracts pay a fluctuating rate based on market prices.

    The government decided on the rate based on the number forecast by private operators five years from now.

    The current average electricity price is 3.8 cents per kilowatt hour.

    The price ceiling will apply to people with a regulated rate option. If the RRO is below 6.8 cents, they will still pay the lower rate.

    Energy Minister Marg McCuaig-Boyd will lead a consultation with consumers and power companies starting in December on ways to reach that cap.

    Don MacIntrye, the Wildrose critic for electricity and renewables, said the government is laying out a larger strategy piece by piece as part of an underlying agenda.

    "As I back up and take a look at the puzzle pieces that are on table, things that we do know now, it is very clear to me that they are going to completely eliminate the deregulated system we currently have," he said.

    MacIntyre said under a deregulated system, power companies fund the construction of infrastructure through the rates they charge from consumers. If the system is regulated, the government takes on the costs of construction, which ultimately costs the taxpayer, he argued.

    Progressive Conservative energy critic Rick Fraser said the price cap shows the government isn't confident the province will have enough electricity when it shuts down coal-fired power plants and tries to replace them with natural gas and renewable energy sources.

    Like MacIntyre, Fraser said people will end up paying more through their taxes.

    "Ratepayers are also taxpayers," he said. "This only amounts to the government putting money into one pocket and taking it out of the other."

    Fraser said the deregulated system gave Albertans reliable power at an affordable price.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-cap-1.3862301


    I have absolutely no issue with this and as a matter of fact I applaud our NDP government for making electricity affordable for the average Albertan.
    "If the system is regulated, the government takes on the costs of construction, which ultimately costs the taxpayer, he argued."

    I guess he's pretty new to Alberta and doesn't know how regulation used to work. Rate payers paid when plant was deemed necessary and subsequently approved. Utilities faced huge risks over building plant that might not be required and so not earning an acceptable AFUDC, later a regulated return on the completed plant costs. The regulation controlled the approval process (access) so it was harder to overload the system with unnecessary production and costs, though a poor economy could do it. When plants required massive upfront costs and long lead times, regulation possibly lowered final costs for all. Tofpday with smaller incremental additions possible, that approved access to the market regulation may no longer matter.


    Here's a very good, long and detailed article giving some history. Here's just a small excerpt. It is a "MUST READ" in my opinion.

    January 22, 2001, pp. 36, 41

    Alberta's self-inflicted crisis

    The government's costly electricity fiasco provides a national example of how not to deregulate electricity

    By Mike Byfield


    ...

    Most Albertans, according to a persistent myth, have lived and died in favour of the unfettered free market. What nonsense! In the 1920s, the Progressives built up Alberta Government Telephones (now Telus). During the Depression, Social Credit established Alberta Treasury Branches, still one of just two government-owned banks in the U.S. and Canada (the other is in North Dakota). The Socreds also licensed Alberta Gas Trunk Lines, a government-regulated pipeline monopoly later renamed Nova. Peter Lougheed's Conservatives bought Pacific Western Airlines (later Canadian Airlines) and founded Alberta Energy, a highly successful petroleum producer. And that's not the entire list by any means.
    Unlike many others, however, Albertans have also been prudent about getting their government's nose out of businesses, not just into them. Until now, that is. Power deregulation already stands out as the most costly provincial government-administered industrial bungle in the West's history.







    ...
    When Mr. Klein headed Alberta's environment ministry, the department was convicted of defrauding Opron Construction on a contract to build the Paddle River Dam. It was the first time that the Crown had ever been found guilty of fraud in the history of the British Empire and Commonwealth. Far from punishing the senior civil servants involved in this nefarious act, Mr. Klein as premier promoted a couple of them, again displaying loyalty to his favoured technocratic policy-makers.

    Deregulation would prove no different. To design the proposed power auction for existing generation plants, the province assembled an independent assessment team steered by PricewaterhouseCoopers. The utilities, in particular TransAlta, reportedly spent $8.7 million to inundate that team and the government with studies and reports. "TransAlta had ready access to Steve West any time they wanted. We electricity customers could rarely see the minister and he ignored us anyway," complains Dan Macnamara, executive director of the Industrial Power Consumers and Cogenerators of Alberta. IPCCAA's 29 members buy about 40% of Alberta's electricity.

    In November 1999, IPCCAA arranged a meeting between Dr. West and representatives for 95% of Alberta's power consumption. "There were ... As to Klein, he has never met with electricity consumers. Instead he and West bent over backwards to protect the utilities, who have all profited handsomely from this disastrously expensive process."

    Mike Cardinal took over the energy portfolio in July 2000. A month later, the government held its long-prepared auction of Power Purchase Arrangements (PPAs). Each PPA committed the bidder to buying the entire output from an individual generating station for 20 years. Dr. West claimed that 40 serious bidders were interested. Wrong. Seven firms bid, and only five ...

    Why did so few companies bid? Because the PPAs were huge contracts. Few firms, ...

    Alberta should have abandoned the PPAs, critics charge, after they failed .... Instead, the Tories ploughed straight ahead. The so-called competitive market would be dominated by just a few big players, the very reason that utilities were regulated in the first place.

    http://fathersforlife.org/articles/r...-inflicted.htm



    Also interesting:


    Business Analysis

    The case for government-owned electricity

    by Mike Byfield

    ...
    The bottom line is plain: for decades, Albertans enjoyed power rates among the lowest in North America. Not much room for cheaper prices there. BC Hydro, SaskPower and Manitoba Hydro, all crown utilities, still function just fine. True, a regulated industry tends to be Cadillac quality. However, a regulated system is also reliable, prices will be stable and utility costs can be thoroughly verified by regulators. By comparison, deregulation of this particular industry carries short- and long-term risks of much higher prices. The gamble is not worthwhile.



    http://web.archive.org/web/200301141...7i010205f.html
    Last edited by KC; 24-11-2016 at 07:00 AM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Rate riders, distribution charges, municipal franchise fee, the list is endless and most are just another word for hidden tax. I would rather not see those on my bill, just tell me the amount to pay and leave me alone. None of those 'extra' fees were ever tackled by the P.C's and yet, as you say, they make up a big chunk of the utility bills. Too many fingers in the pie.
    Actually, most of those "extra" fees were a direct result of the PCs deregulating of power. When deregulation hit, all of the charges were unbundled so that consumers could see the constituent part of their bills & make a comparison between retailers. It also lets you more easily see what's charged on a fixed basis & what's charged on a consumption basis.

    Only you would be upset about the utility companies actually providing a breakdown of where your money is going & advocate ignorant opacity. Just don't flip the bill over, Gem & you won't be troubled by the pesky details. Just focus on the payment stub & call it a day.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    It's going to be so high living under the NDP. Look at Ontario, parts of it look like a third world country. Power or food. Disgusting, take note, one term Notley!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I have absolutely no issue with this and as a matter of fact I applaud our NDP government for making electricity affordable for the average Albertan.
    Its not going to be affordable when you don't have a job. Capping consumer rates, means business rates are going to skyrocket, which means Alberta business aren't going to be even less competitive than they already are right now / small business are going to fold. Great. Economic brilliance by our NDP - lets sock it to business when they are on their knees, that won't hurt the labor market, will it? Before you know it, we will be like Ontario, where it is now cheaper for companies to go off grid and produce their own energy, of course, that means though that everybody else still on the grid pays even more - regulatory death spiral.
    Last edited by moahunter; 24-11-2016 at 04:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I have absolutely no issue with this and as a matter of fact I applaud our NDP government for making electricity affordable for the average Albertan.
    Its not going to be affordable when you don't have a job. Capping consumer rates, means business rates are going to skyrocket, which means Alberta business aren't going to be even less competitive than they already are right now / small business are going to fold. Great. Economic brilliance by our NDP - lets sock it to business when they are on their knees, that won't hurt the labor market, will it? Before you know it, we will be like Ontario, where it is now cheaper for companies to go off grid and produce their own energy, of course, that means though that everybody else still on the grid pays even more - regulatory death spiral.
    Power will be double what it is now..

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I have absolutely no issue with this and as a matter of fact I applaud our NDP government for making electricity affordable for the average Albertan.
    Its not going to be affordable when you don't have a job. Capping consumer rates, means business rates are going to skyrocket, which means Alberta business aren't going to be even less competitive than they already are right now / small business are going to fold. Great. Economic brilliance by our NDP - lets sock it to business when they are on their knees, that won't hurt the labor market, will it? Before you know it, we will be like Ontario, where it is now cheaper for companies to go off grid and produce their own energy, of course, that means though that everybody else still on the grid pays even more - regulatory death spiral.
    You mean nuclear rehab death spiral.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    You mean nuclear rehab death spiral.
    Ontarios cost spiral is as much to do with renewables, and the gas plant they decided not to procure, as nuclear. You can't just throw away billions of dollars of capital that has been invested in coal power plants, by making them obsolete before their life has expired, and then expect no-body is going to pay for that capital which is replaced. That's the problem our NDP faces now, they pretend it can be done for nothing, the reality is, if consumers are capped the costs are going to be passed on to our businesses, who just can't afford yet another competitive disadvantage. I think coal should be phased out (it was happening anyway), but the natural and cost effective alternative for us is modern efficient natural gas plants like the massive new one capital power and enmax built on the edge of Calgary. It can't be rushed though and was happening via market forces over time anyway. Instead, by the NDP meddling in the market and giving the power companies justification to break contracts, we are going to see a massive spike, which wasn't necessary.
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-11-2016 at 07:54 AM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I think coal should be phased out (it was happening anyway), but the natural and cost effective alternative for us is modern efficient natural gas plants like the massive new one capital power and enmax built on the edge of Calgary.
    That's exactly the plan.

    The province’s Energy Minister Marg McCuaig-Boyd announced Thursday the province will pay Capital Power Corp., TransAlta Corp. and ATCO Ltd. a total of $97 million per year, beginning next year and payable every year until 2030, to shut down six of their 18 power plants early.
    The other 12 coal-fired electric generating stations in the province are all scheduled to close, or convert to natural gas, before 2030. Alberta’s NDP government has mandated that all coal-fired power plants either cease operations or eliminate all their emissions by that date as part of sweeping climate change legislation announced last year.
    12 of the 18 coal plants were scheduled to close & be replaced by natural gas plants (as they're the next most economical baseload generation in Alberta) long before the NDP decided to change things up. The other 6 plants aren't that far into their lifecycle & will now be decommissioned early & the province is compensating them $1.36B over the next 14 years.

    http://business.financialpost.com/ne..._lsa=0c04-f052
    Last edited by noodle; 25-11-2016 at 08:22 AM.
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    On the radio they were talking about the great health benefits that will acrue to Alberta over the years following shuttering coal plants.

    However, here in Alberta where do the exhaust plumes go?

    Geness / Wabamun units would very rarely pollute Edmonton's air.

    Sheerness, by Hanna would very rarely pollute Calgary's air.

    Do any of the plants actually pollute significant amounts of air over even small urban centres?

    So I get the feeling that the health analysis looked at the benefits of removing the pollutants from the air over cities and applied those health benefits to Alberta's population.


    Read this and note the sloppy association being made between air pollution's health effects and the source of the pollutants. As someone with asthma I prefer to see intelligent analysis and targeting the real causes of the health issues. So I may be wrong and those health problems are heavily weighted towards the rural parts of Alberta and so the coal plants may be the main culprit but I have my doubts.



    Read this with a critical eye.

    NOVEMBER 12, 2015 by PressProgress
    Alberta's air pollution is making people sick. Here are 4 good reasons to leave coal behind

    https://www.pressprogress.ca/alberta...ve_coal_behind


    In the video here you can see where the pollution is going. I'm surprised by how often the plume drifts over Edmonton so I was wrong above, yet, by the time it reaches Edmonton I still wonder about the concentrations and elevation of Wabamun/Genesse pollutants. In the video you can see the effect of industry around Edmonton. Note how Calgary gets almost nothing. I wonder how the pollution/hospitalization/premature death issues compare between the two cities.


    This is very good!


    New images of air pollution in Alberta
    BLOG - Oct. 8, 2015 - By Benjamin Thibault, Andrew Read, Joe Vipond
    http://www.pembina.org/blog/new-imag...ion-in-alberta
    Last edited by KC; 25-11-2016 at 10:55 AM.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I think coal should be phased out (it was happening anyway), but the natural and cost effective alternative for us is modern efficient natural gas plants like the massive new one capital power and enmax built on the edge of Calgary.
    That's exactly the plan.
    Not for 30% of it, which is a huge percentage to be subsidizing.

    http://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xI...9E36A4573C598B

    “Albertans are leaders. The plan we have put forward enables us to take real action on climate change, protect our electricity market and responsibly transition away from coal to up to 30 per cent renewable energy by 2030. This is good for our environment, good for our image in the world and good for the health of families.”

    - Shannon Phillips, Minister of Environment and Parks

  23. #23

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    Sweet Christmas Moa, try to keep current with your citations. That press release is a year old & speaks in generalities.

    This program is built on the recommendations from the AESO, who studied jurisdictions around the world to come up with the best possible program design in the interests of Albertans‎. This process will be competitive and transparent and will provide renewable electricity we need at the lowest possible price. The program will also complement the coal phase-out to ensure system reliability is maintained at all times.
    http://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xI...FCF5B5CA13C24C

    https://www.aeso.ca/market/renewable...icity-program/

    Your rhetoric is as stale as your information.

    "Successful projects will be financially supported by reinvesting a portion of carbon revenues from large industrial emitters."
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  24. #24

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    ^lets see what happens to power prices for businesses Noodle, we will know then who is right, and who is wrong, all of that uneconomic in Alberta green investment stuff isn't going to happen magically for free, it is going to be paid for, and passed on, not to consumers per the cap, but to small and large business struggling to survive.
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-11-2016 at 11:15 AM.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^lets see what happens to power prices for businesses Noodle, we will know then who is right, and who is wrong, all of that uneconomic in Alberta green investment stuff isn't going to happen magically for free, it is going to be paid for, and passed on, not to consumers per the cap, but to small and large business struggling to survive.
    It's almost like you don't know how power pricing works in Alberta & are being deliberately ignorant or disingenuous in your phrasing in order to stir the pot.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    It's almost like you don't know how power pricing works in Alberta & are being deliberately ignorant or disingenuous in your phrasing in order to stir the pot.
    Its almost like you imagine things get paid for, for free, and not passed on to anyone. If these projects for renewable generation made so much economic sense, they would have happened anyway / this government regulation wouldn't be needed. The cost will be passed on (assuming the NDP don't plan to borrow it all), in the form of passed on taxes, and higher power production costs (to recover lost capital investment and subsidize inefficient power generation). Since consumers are capped, its business who consume power who will pick up the burden - that means more business failures, less investment in Alberta, and fewer jobs (aside from Government who will need more people to manage all this nonsense).
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-11-2016 at 11:28 AM.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Its almost like you imagine things get paid for, for free, and not passed on to anyone. If these projects made so much economic sense, they would have happened anyway / this government regulation wouldn't be needed. The cost will be passed on (assuming the NDP don't plan to borrow it all), in the form of passed on taxes, and higher power production costs (to recover lost capital investment and subsidize inefficient power generation). Since consumers are capped, its business who consume power who will pick up the burden - that means more business failures, less investment in Alberta, and fewer jobs.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  28. #28

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    If these projects made so much economic sense, they would have happened anyway / this government regulation wouldn't be needed.
    You mean like 2/3 of the coal plants in Alberta already scheduled for retirement & replacement before 2030 with alternate fuel sources like natural gas, long before the NDP even came into power?

    The cost will be passed on (assuming the NDP don't plan to borrow it all), in the form of passed on taxes, and higher power production costs (to recover lost capital investment and subsidize inefficient power generation).Since consumers are capped, its business who consume power who will pick up the burden - that means more business failures, less investment in Alberta, and fewer jobs.
    What cost are you speaking to here? The subsidy built into the RFP process that'll determine the most cost-effective renewable generation? The one that's to be paid with the carbon tax from large emitters? Why would the NDP have to borrow anything?

    As to small commercial, commercial & industrial customers having to offset any residential possible price cap losses, you're dramatically overestimating the proportion of electricity usage in the province that is actually residential. >60% of EPCOR's electricity revenue comes from ~1800 customers. The same class of customers who've been exposed to the raw cost of power from the grid since the PCs deregulated the market 15 years ago. If they or any other utility consumer wants stability in their rates they're free to find a retailer who'll work with them to fix their rates in a contract. They'll have the same ability going forward.
    Last edited by noodle; 25-11-2016 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Added a blurb
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    If these projects made so much economic sense, they would have happened anyway / this government regulation wouldn't be needed.
    You mean like 2/3 of the coal plants in Alberta already scheduled for retirement & replacement before 2030 with alternate fuel sources like natural gas, long before the NDP even came into power?
    That was happening, natural gas was taking over. It can't anymore though - it won't be a complete switch from coal to natural gas, which makes economic sense, as was occuring. Rather, a large percentage is going to go into renewable projects, which will be paid for by taxes that will be passed on to businesses. Then add in all the costs of the broken contracts that Enmax and Capital power and others have been able to execute because of poorly thought through regulation, and its all going to spiral upwards. The harsh reality is in Alberta, renewable can't compete against natural gas without a subsidy, not unless its purchased from another province that has abundant hydro (e.g. B.C. - Site C), and even then its a stretch given the transmission loss. If you think these costs aren't real, and won't be born by business, why do you think the NDP had to bring in a consumer cap? Its paid for by business consumers, residential consumers, or taxpayers, it won't be free.
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-11-2016 at 12:22 PM.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    If these projects made so much economic sense, they would have happened anyway / this government regulation wouldn't be needed.
    You mean like 2/3 of the coal plants in Alberta already scheduled for retirement & replacement before 2030 with alternate fuel sources like natural gas, long before the NDP even came into power?
    That was happening, natural gas was taking over. It can't anymore though - it won't be a complete switch from coal to natural gas, which makes economic sense, as was occuring. Rather, a large percentage is going to go into renewable projects, which will be paid for by taxes that will be passed on to businesses. Then add in all the costs of the broken contracts that Enmax and Capital power and others have been able to execute because of poorly thought through regulation, and its all going to spiral upwards. The harsh reality is in Alberta, renewable can't compete against natural gas, not unless its purchased from another province that has abundant hydro (e.g. B.C.), and even then its a stretch given the transmission loss.
    No, moa, the natural gas plans are still going through. What's changed, however, is the province has committed to adding 5000 MW of renewable generation to the grid by 2030 via a parallel system designed to incentivize the construction of renewable generation through subsidies taken from large emitters, with projects chosen through a transparent & open selection process that's already currently underway. Renewable generation needs to be backed by base load generation. Currently our base load is a mix of coal & natural gas with the former being phased out.

    You have a comically incorrect "understanding" (and I use that word in the loosest connotation possible) of how the current deregulated market actually functions in Alberta, nor the actual changes that have recently been made, nor the ones proposed for the future. You have zero understanding of how the roles of the government, the various regulatory agencies, retailers, generators, customers & distribution companies intersect & interact.

    The cost to retire the coal plants early is $97M/year (about 2/3 of what EPCOR returns to the City of Edmonton as a dividend) over the next 14 years. In the grand scheme of things, given the sheer size of the utility industry in Alberta, it's negligible.

    As to the expensive lawsuits over broken contracts:

    At Thursday's announcement, the government said it has settled part of its lawsuit, filed last summer, to prevent companies from returning their PPAs to the balancing pool.
    As part of that settlement, Capital Power will pay $39 million to the balancing pool. The PPA, which was transferred to the balancing pool earlier this year, will remain with the balancing pool.
    In return, Capital Power has been dropped from the litigation filed by the government last summer.
    No details were available about the agreements with AltaGas and TransCanada, which were reached Thursday. The Alberta government is still talking with ENMAX, the last party involved in the lawsuit.
    Yeah that's an expensive lawsuit...for Capital Power. Once again, your information is out of date.

    (Oh, and at 1230pm on today, November 11, 2016 we were actually selling our cheap power to BC to the tune of 58MW)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    If these projects made so much economic sense, they would have happened anyway / this government regulation wouldn't be needed.
    You mean like 2/3 of the coal plants in Alberta already scheduled for retirement & replacement before 2030 with alternate fuel sources like natural gas, long before the NDP even came into power?
    That was happening, natural gas was taking over. It can't anymore though - it won't be a complete switch from coal to natural gas, which makes economic sense, as was occuring. Rather, a large percentage is going to go into renewable projects, which will be paid for by taxes that will be passed on to businesses. Then add in all the costs of the broken contracts that Enmax and Capital power and others have been able to execute because of poorly thought through regulation, and its all going to spiral upwards. The harsh reality is in Alberta, renewable can't compete against natural gas, not unless its purchased from another province that has abundant hydro (e.g. B.C.), and even then its a stretch given the transmission loss.
    No, moa, the natural gas plans are still going through. What's changed, however, is the province has committed to adding 5000 MW of renewable generation to the grid by 2030 via a parallel system designed to incentivize the construction of renewable generation through subsidies taken from large emitters, with projects chosen through a transparent & open selection process that's already currently underway. Renewable generation needs to be backed by base load generation. Currently our base load is a mix of coal & natural gas with the former being phased out.
    That's exactly what I said, a percentage will go to renewable generation. The difference between you and me (and the NDP who put in the cap), is you imagine that change will happen for free, whereas I, and the NDP now, realize it will be very expensive. That parrell system won't happen for free Noodle, it will be paid for by increases in carbon taxes and levies that are passed on in pricing to energy consumers. On the settlement, Capital Power got what it wanted, they broke a contract that was costing them a fortune (for a comparatively tiny fee).
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-11-2016 at 12:41 PM.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    That's exactly what I said, a percentage will go to renewable generation. The difference between you and me and the NDP who put in the cap, is you imagine that change will happen for free, whereas I, and the NDP now, realize it will be very expensive.
    No, moa, no amount of NDP policymaking will make renewable generation suitable for base load power generation. The transition will occur from coal to gas, with renewable offsetting the need for gas-fired generation whenever feasible & economically viable (which will be enhanced by subsidies paid for by emitters) just like it is now. This is part of the reason we're moving to a capacity pricing scheme than straight up free market as it is now, to incentivize investment in generation facilities that will not be used to handle the base load & instead can be dispatched (or laid fallow) as required. We're currently ridiculously oversupplied with generation capacity in Alberta & the NDP's plan is to accelerate that oversupply, while changing the rules so that generation facilities are still economically viable even if they're not constantly in use. Coal was on the cusp of viability in Alberta years ago. That's why Capital Power started moving forward on Genesee 4&5 in 2103, 2 combined-cycle gas plants, despite there already being 3 coal plants on-site and a coal mine across the road from it. Even with economies of scale & the lowest possible input costs, gas was already the superior choice.

    Also, where did I say it was going to happen for free? Of course there's a cost involved, as there should be. I just don't share your Chicken Little "sky is falling" fearmongering. The renewable generation has to tie into existing distribution & transmission systems, reducing the cost passed on to the consumer. Power will continue to be dispatched in order of cost effectiveness. It just means those that pollute & emit CO2 will bear the full costs of their actions, with that cost being used to incentivize & accelerate the transition which was already occurring.

    The moves the NDP are making are putting protections in place for the most vulnerable section of the market, residential customers while continuing the exact same message about businesses being responsible to manage their own costs that the PCs put in place 15 years ago with deregulation.
    Last edited by noodle; 25-11-2016 at 12:57 PM.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  33. #33

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    ^here, I said the cost would be passed on (which makes our business less competitive than places which don't have these costs, like anywhere South of the border) and you disputed it
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    The cost will be passed on (assuming the NDP don't plan to borrow it all), in the form of passed on taxes, and higher power production costs (to recover lost capital investment and subsidize inefficient power generation).Since consumers are capped, its business who consume power who will pick up the burden - that means more business failures, less investment in Alberta, and fewer jobs.
    What cost are you speaking to here? The subsidy built into the RFP process that'll determine the most cost-effective renewable generation? The one that's to be paid with the carbon tax from large emitters? Why would the NDP have to borrow anything?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^here, I said the cost would be passed on (which makes our business less competitive than places which don't have these costs, like anywhere South of the border) and you disputed it
    Uh, nowhere in there did I say free. I know reading comprehension isn't your forte, but at least try not to put words into my mouth to be used as springboards for your own ignorant rhetoric.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  35. #35

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    ^I'm glad we are in agreement then that the costs of this boondoggle is going to be borne by our economy and will make Alberta business less competitive compared to the US leading to job losses / loss of wealth.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I'm glad we are in agreement then that the costs of this boondoggle is going to be borne by our economy and will make Alberta business less competitive compared to the US leading to job losses / loss of wealth.
    Nope. I do not agree with your statement at all.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  37. #37

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    ^well I hope money tree you imagine will pay for it all / keep our businesses whole as the costs are passed down, grows as you imagine it will.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^well I hope money tree you imagine will pay for it all / keep our businesses whole as the costs are passed down, grows as you imagine it will.
    You're basically talking to yourself with your constant commentary & disagreement with things I never said but that you perceive I must believe.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  39. #39

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    ^the truth hurts (all of us), there is no free lunch.

    "The only reason you'd impose a price cap on electricity is if you anticipated making moves yourself as a government that would cause electricity prices to sky rocket and they aren't being forthcoming with Albertans about what those changes might be," said Justin Smith of the Calgary Chamber of Commerce.

    "Such massive regulation should really be done in consultation with the utility company, with rate payers and with Albertans as a whole and it's my understanding on this particular one that no consultation was done," said Mayor Naheed Nenshi.

    Enmax also released a statement saying the NDP is ignoring the fact that retailers have been providing price protection to consumers for a decade.
    http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/electricit...-ndp-1.3172445

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^the truth hurts (all of us), there is no free lunch.
    Where did I say free? What's your fixation with free? I didn't say free. I just don't ascribe to your Conservative ideology & fearmongering rhetoric that the sky is falling & that this dooms Alberta to being uncompetitive.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I didn't say free. I just don't ascribe to your Conservative ideology & fearmongering rhetoric that the sky is falling & that this dooms Alberta to being uncompetitive.
    You will might wake up eventually Noodle, like 80% of Albertan's have, even the Alberta party which I wouldn't describe as a fear mongering conservative hold out, or you can just keep your head in the sand and pretend these policies aren't sinking us.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...-more-spending
    Last edited by moahunter; 25-11-2016 at 01:58 PM.

  42. #42

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    The lack of irony that you call someone out for posting something as a "liberal rag" in a different thread while simultaneously posting an editorial from the Financial Post is astounding.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  43. #43

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    To drag this thread back on topic here's a trip down memory lane (and away from moa's axe grinding against the NDP). Let's revisit just how well things went 15 years ago when the current broken system was put into place by the patron saint of Alberta Conservatives, Ralph Klein:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle25442551/


    In December Klein tried to dampen the growing outcry by introducing an eight-cent per kilowatt-hour price cap for homeowners. This unexpected intervention in the marketplace shocked the utilities. Don Lowry, CEO of Epcor, quickly denounced the move, saying it would cost power companies nearly a billion dollars, given production costs. "We can't run with these kinds of rules," said Lowry. "It's kind of Ralph's own national energy program."
    I guess the NDP should have just waited until AFTER the poop hit the fan to put the cap in, since that's what the PCs did. Being proactive & giving years of notice regarding changes in the grid are just lefty socialist nonsense, clearly against the values of good, hardworking Albertan businesses.
    Last edited by noodle; 25-11-2016 at 02:44 PM. Reason: fixt muh grammurz
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    To drag this thread back on topic here's a trip down memory lane (and away from moa's axe grinding against the NDP). Let's revisit just how well things went 15 years ago when the current broken system was put into place by the patron saint of Alberta Conservatives, Ralph Klein:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle25442551/


    In December Klein tried to dampen the growing outcry by introducing an eight-cent per kilowatt-hour price cap for homeowners. This unexpected intervention in the marketplace shocked the utilities. Don Lowry, CEO of Epcor, quickly denounced the move, saying it would cost power companies nearly a billion dollars, given production costs. "We can't run with these kinds of rules," said Lowry. "It's kind of Ralph's own national energy program."
    I guess the NDP should have just waited until AFTER the poop hit the fan to put the cap in, since that's what the PCs did. Being proactive & giving years of notice regarding changes in the grid are just lefty socialist nonsense, clearly against the values of good, hardworking Albertan businesses.
    Also, the new NDP capped rate is even lower than what was set by the beloved St. Ralph of Regis (or is that just Ralph of St. Regis?) - the patron saint to all Alberta neo conservatives !!

  45. #45

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    Yeah, plus the 8 cents I mentioned in the quote isn't even what it was capped at, as it was changed to 11 cents before implementation.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I didn't say free. I just don't ascribe to your Conservative ideology & fearmongering rhetoric that the sky is falling & that this dooms Alberta to being uncompetitive.
    You will might wake up eventually Noodle, like 80% of Albertan's have, even the Alberta party which I wouldn't describe as a fear mongering conservative hold out, or you can just keep your head in the sand and pretend these policies aren't sinking us.

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...-more-spending
    Its obvious to a sock puppet what this is going to do..right now our power is just right, we will see it double soon.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Its obvious to a sock puppet what this is going to do..right now our power is just right, we will see it double soon.
    Even if it could double (and it can't, thanks to the cap that's going in), it'd still be half the price it was when Ralph finished screwing it over, which is coincidentally the current average for power per kWh in the US.

    If your business' success is predicated on the lowest utility costs and/or the lowest tax rate and/or the lowest interest rates I'm afraid you're not much of a business in the first place. If you could weather the PCs terrible job of deregulation at the turn of the century you'll be able to weather any minor hiccups that occur as the NDP shove the genie back into the bottle.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Its obvious to a sock puppet what this is going to do..right now our power is just right, we will see it double soon.
    I think power is way too cheap right now. It's like 3c/kwh. Cheap energy does not help conservation efforts. Just like cheap gas increases sales of SUVs.

    Cap it if they feel that's necessary, but 8 c/kwh is too low. 11-14c/kwh seems more appropriate and is the general average for most of north america. I'd prefer they bundle all the distribution and transmission fees into the variable rate as well so that the average residential consumer doesn't pay any more or less for all those fees.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Its obvious to a sock puppet what this is going to do..right now our power is just right, we will see it double soon.
    I think power is way too cheap right now. It's like 3c/kwh. Cheap energy does not help conservation efforts. Just like cheap gas increases sales of SUVs.

    Cap it if they feel that's necessary, but 8 c/kwh is too low. 11-14c/kwh seems more appropriate and is the general average for most of north america. I'd prefer they bundle all the distribution and transmission fees into the variable rate as well so that the average residential consumer doesn't pay any more or less for all those fees.
    Yes because people on on low income and seniors like my mother in law hate cheap power. Crawl down from that ivory tower..
    Last edited by H.L.; 25-11-2016 at 04:49 PM.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    You will might wake up eventually Noodle, like 80% of Albertan's have, even the Alberta party which I wouldn't describe as a fear mongering conservative hold out, or you can just keep your head in the sand and pretend these policies aren't sinking us.
    You say 80% but can you back that up? I think you're mistaking the ALL CAPS Facebook posts shared by the same handful of idiots you follow as some indicator of what's actually occurring out there.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  51. #51

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    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    All of them.

    I find it interesting these pocketbook measures. Capping power price, and now banning door to door sales. This is more 'classic' NDP - we will see if it improves their support in Alberta.

    In some ways the NDP and conservatives are alike in wanting to support 'families' and undertaking simplistic policy measures that people can easily understand. A cap here, a ban there. Nothing too complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    All of them.

    I find it interesting these pocketbook measures. Capping power price, and now banning door to door sales. This is more 'classic' NDP - we will see if it improves their support in Alberta.

    In some ways the NDP and conservatives are alike in wanting to support 'families' and undertaking simplistic policy measures that people can easily understand. A cap here, a ban there. Nothing too complex.
    I'll take it over privatization and deregulation. We wouldn't be in this mess in the first place without those ill advised shifts.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    Hopefully most of them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    Hopefully most of them!
    hello lady says: Oh please, dear scammer, please scam me on my doorstep! It's all I ever wanted! That evil NDP for putting a stop to it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    To drag this thread back on topic here's a trip down memory lane (and away from moa's axe grinding against the NDP). Let's revisit just how well things went 15 years ago when the current broken system was put into place by the patron saint of Alberta Conservatives, Ralph Klein:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle25442551/


    In December Klein tried to dampen the growing outcry by introducing an eight-cent per kilowatt-hour price cap for homeowners. This unexpected intervention in the marketplace shocked the utilities. Don Lowry, CEO of Epcor, quickly denounced the move, saying it would cost power companies nearly a billion dollars, given production costs. "We can't run with these kinds of rules," said Lowry. "It's kind of Ralph's own national energy program."
    I guess the NDP should have just waited until AFTER the poop hit the fan to put the cap in, since that's what the PCs did. Being proactive & giving years of notice regarding changes in the grid are just lefty socialist nonsense, clearly against the values of good, hardworking Albertan businesses.
    Also, the new NDP capped rate is even lower than what was set by the beloved St. Ralph of Regis (or is that just Ralph of St. Regis?) - the patron saint to all Alberta neo conservatives !!
    Wasn't the Regis it was the St. Louis that Ralph was the patron. I was living in Calgary when he was mayor and used to go downstairs myself and have a good helping of perogies and sausage. They had excellent food. Ralph's corner was always a hoot as him and his cronies could always be heard having a laugh. The good old days. The St. Louis recently reopened and has been nicely renovated.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    Hopefully most of them!
    hello lady says: Oh please, dear scammer, please scam me on my doorstep! It's all I ever wanted! That evil NDP for putting a stop to it!
    No, I have never said that, but nice try. Do you have anything else? Its not my fault the NDP are as hated as they are

  58. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    To drag this thread back on topic here's a trip down memory lane (and away from moa's axe grinding against the NDP). Let's revisit just how well things went 15 years ago when the current broken system was put into place by the patron saint of Alberta Conservatives, Ralph Klein:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle25442551/


    In December Klein tried to dampen the growing outcry by introducing an eight-cent per kilowatt-hour price cap for homeowners. This unexpected intervention in the marketplace shocked the utilities. Don Lowry, CEO of Epcor, quickly denounced the move, saying it would cost power companies nearly a billion dollars, given production costs. "We can't run with these kinds of rules," said Lowry. "It's kind of Ralph's own national energy program."
    I guess the NDP should have just waited until AFTER the poop hit the fan to put the cap in, since that's what the PCs did. Being proactive & giving years of notice regarding changes in the grid are just lefty socialist nonsense, clearly against the values of good, hardworking Albertan businesses.
    Also, the new NDP capped rate is even lower than what was set by the beloved St. Ralph of Regis (or is that just Ralph of St. Regis?) - the patron saint to all Alberta neo conservatives !!
    Wasn't the Regis it was the St. Louis that Ralph was the patron. I was living in Calgary when he was mayor and used to go downstairs myself and have a good helping of perogies and sausage. They had excellent food. Ralph's corner was always a hoot as him and his cronies could always be heard having a laugh. The good old days. The St. Louis recently reopened and has been nicely renovated.
    I'd forgotten about that. Heavy handed government intervention by the conservatives. How long was the PC rate cap in place?

    Interesting: 8 cent rate cap by Klein vs 6.8 cent by Notley


    And specifically this quote about Klein from the excerpt above. A billion dollars! So, who's anti-business

    "Don Lowry, CEO of Epcor, quickly denounced the move, saying it would cost power companies nearly a billion dollars, given production costs. "We can't run with these kinds of rules," said Lowry.

    More from that article:


    Prior to deregulation, Alberta boasted one of the cheapest and most reliable electricity regimes in North America, ranking 25th out of 173 jurisdictions in price competitiveness, according to Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters (CME). The province is now so electrically hard up that it has resorted to buying high-priced power from B.C., Saskatchewan and, of all places, the city of Medicine Hat, whose independent-minded utility avoided deregulation. Only California and Hawaii now have higher industrial electricity rates than Alberta. The disadvantage could spell job losses as high as 30,000 in manufacturing alone in the next year, predicts Jayson Myers, chief economist at the CME.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...1/?arc404=true
    Last edited by KC; 28-11-2016 at 09:27 AM.

  59. #59

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    Hated by who? You, your two Facebook friends, and that one bitter O&G guy with 78 fake accounts that spams alt-right hate?

    Myself and most of the people I know feel the NDP are knocking it out of the park right now.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Cap it if they feel that's necessary, but 8 c/kwh is too low. 11-14c/kwh seems more appropriate and is the general average for most of north america. I'd prefer they bundle all the distribution and transmission fees into the variable rate as well so that the average residential consumer doesn't pay any more or less for all those fees.
    The fixed costs on your bill are based on the fixed costs the business incurs to provide you service, whereas the variable charges cover the variable. Plus the distribution & transmission companies are separate from the company that procures & sells you your power.

    While I certainly understand the confusion & dislike for the unbundled charges (and how easy it is to perceive them as new or extra charges), the increased transparency & accountability that the current setup provides is a worthy trade off to me.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    How many of these measures can be/will be reversed if the NDP get the bums rush in the next election cycle?.
    Hopefully most of them!
    hello lady says: Oh please, dear scammer, please scam me on my doorstep! It's all I ever wanted! That evil NDP for putting a stop to it!
    No, I have never said that, but nice try. Do you have anything else? Its not my fault the NDP are as hated as they are
    Odd comment considering the PC's, that once had Alberta as an apparent birthright managed to crash even that train into the ditch. To the extent of one of the most stunning provincial election results ever witnessed in this nation.

    I support people being able to favor political stripe of their choice but I have less patience for such ardent support that ignores present reality.

    In Lougheed/Getty/Klein eras people figured the PC's owned this province. I daresay they spent a fair amount of time treating the province with that kind of regard. To the extent that the seemingly impossible occurred and the province pitched them out.


    As far as this topic only someone fairly incapable of political open mind could criticize the NDP for its latest Energy related moves and this one in particular. All you or Kenney are doing is showing your indelible, and inflexible stripes.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  62. #62
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    Get rid of the NDP, the job killers of Alberta. Why is it Ontario is in bad shape? Oh right, let's go green NOW, all solar powered bs.
    Yup Wynne is polling at 14%..That will be the NDP.
    Read it and weep...😁

  63. #63

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    Anyone can screw up anything. Wynne messed up power in Ontario by signing stupid contracts. NDP is putting caps and protections into place so that can't happen. But don't let facts or details get in the way of your mindless factless rants.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Anyone can screw up anything. Wynne messed up power in Ontario by signing stupid contracts. NDP is putting caps and protections into place so that can't happen. But don't let facts or details get in the way of your mindless factless rants.

    Oh my , how touchy the alt left are! I'm enjoying it..

  65. #65

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    Ha, if you think I'm alt-left you need to up your dose of anti-psychotics.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Ha, if you think I'm alt-left you need to up your dose of anti-psychotics.
    No thanks,they aren't working for you.
    Ciao..

  67. #67

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    Before we start drawing blind comparisons to electricity markets in Ontario and Alberta, you should read this:

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...-exactly-clear

    Alberta won't be going down the same path as Ontario and here's why.

  68. #68

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    Anyone with a flicker of brain activity knows Alberta is taking a good look at what went wrong in Ontario and will avoid those mistakes.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Cap it if they feel that's necessary, but 8 c/kwh is too low. 11-14c/kwh seems more appropriate and is the general average for most of north america. I'd prefer they bundle all the distribution and transmission fees into the variable rate as well so that the average residential consumer doesn't pay any more or less for all those fees.
    The fixed costs on your bill are based on the fixed costs the business incurs to provide you service, whereas the variable charges cover the variable. Plus the distribution & transmission companies are separate from the company that procures & sells you your power.

    While I certainly understand the confusion & dislike for the unbundled charges (and how easy it is to perceive them as new or extra charges), the increased transparency & accountability that the current setup provides is a worthy trade off to me.
    It is frustrating with those fixed costs that they are shared equally vs being proportional to usage. Again, that makes sense in some ways. Everyone needs power, there is a base cost that is equal for each meter (more or less). But when that base cost is higher than your consumption costs, and a reduction in power usage isn't proportional to your reduction in costs, there is little incentive to conserve.

    If we instead took the fixed costs, and made them shared proportional to usage, we would have more incentive to conserve. Keep them as separate, but not everyone needs to be equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Anyone with a flicker of brain activity knows Alberta is taking a good look at what went wrong in Ontario and will avoid those mistakes.
    Im sure they are,but with thousands out of work and a carbon tax,do you really think AB is going to be okay ?

    A few hundred here were interested in solar power, this isnt going to fly..you can hope all you like..just wait!

  71. #71

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    This will put people to work. Coal plants will need to be converted to gas - so there's construction jobs. Solar and wind construction will occur. More jobs. TransAlta announced they are expanding hydro power at their Drayton Valley hydro project. Hey, more jobs.

    Will it replace all the O&G related unemployment? Of course not. There's nothing the NDP can do outside of massive publicly-funded projects that specifically require the skills of the unemployed that will, and I'm pretty sure I know how you feel about government spending right now. This is probably the best incentive for power generators to invest in new projects and employ some folks.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post

    If we instead took the fixed costs, and made them shared proportional to usage, we would have more incentive to conserve. Keep them as separate, but not everyone needs to be equal.
    So rather than people paying for & being aware of their actual cost of service you'd like for some people to get a reduced cost borne on the backs of others?

    As it stands, people's bills are proportional to their usage, it just doesn't hit zero dollars when their consumption hits zero. You'd be obscuring & obfuscating information currently provided on the bill under the rather dubious premise that it'd result in people conserving in order to lower their bills more than the current scheme.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    This will put people to work. Coal plants will need to be converted to gas - so there's construction jobs. Solar and wind construction will occur. More jobs. TransAlta announced they are expanding hydro power at their Drayton Valley hydro project. Hey, more jobs.
    High energy costs = less jobs = less people to use the power from all those fancy projects that wouldn't be economic but for these taxes being passed on to business. While the US ramps up cheap energy, we are developing expensive energy. I know where I'd build a manufacturing plant, and its not where the energy is expensive, its South of the border.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I know where I'd build a manufacturing plant, and its not where the energy is expensive, its South of the border.
    Except that we're currently ~1/4 the price of the American average electric utility rate.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post

    If we instead took the fixed costs, and made them shared proportional to usage, we would have more incentive to conserve. Keep them as separate, but not everyone needs to be equal.
    So rather than people paying for & being aware of their actual cost of service you'd like for some people to get a reduced cost borne on the backs of others?

    As it stands, people's bills are proportional to their usage, it just doesn't hit zero dollars when their consumption hits zero. You'd be obscuring & obfuscating information currently provided on the bill under the rather dubious premise that it'd result in people conserving in order to lower their bills more than the current scheme.
    Turns out I needed to read more myself. The Delivery cost does have a fixed aspect, but also a variable portion. I retract all my previous concerns.
    Last edited by Channing; 28-11-2016 at 12:22 PM.

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    This will put people to work. Coal plants will need to be converted to gas - so there's construction jobs. Solar and wind construction will occur. More jobs. TransAlta announced they are expanding hydro power at their Drayton Valley hydro project. Hey, more jobs.
    High energy costs = less jobs = less people to use the power from all those fancy projects that wouldn't be economic but for these taxes being passed on to business. While the US ramps up cheap energy, we are developing expensive energy. I know where I'd build a manufacturing plant, and its not where the energy is expensive, its South of the border.
    Absolutely. Which is why it being regulated, having annual capacity reviews, and no long-term contracts (three huge things all missing in Ontario) are built in to ensure our costs can't shoot up. You can take the foil hat off
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  77. #77

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    ^So the government is paying for it all out of debt? Great - that means taxes longer term. Money trees don't exist, the costs of this will ultimately end up being paid by all of us, including our businesses who are already struggling.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^So the government is paying for it all out of debt?
    What is "it" in this sentence?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^So the government is paying for it all out of debt? Great - that means taxes longer term. Money trees don't exist, the costs of this will ultimately end up being paid by all of us, including our businesses who are already struggling.
    You keep saying that, but at no point have you pointed to what "it" is? The government isn't in the power business. Power companies build profitable projects and sell us electricity. Other companies build distribution networks and sell the distribution services. The government regulates these things so they can't screw us over.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^So the government is paying for it all out of debt? Great - that means taxes longer term. Money trees don't exist, the costs of this will ultimately end up being paid by all of us, including our businesses who are already struggling.
    You keep saying that, but at no point have you pointed to what "it" is? The government isn't in the power business. Power companies build profitable projects and sell us electricity. Other companies build distribution networks and sell the distribution services. The government regulates these things so they can't screw us over.
    So who is paying for this green investment - these billions of dollars in renewable energy? You think people are going to invest billions, and no longer get profits, that somehow NDP can force pension funds in Canada to demand a lower return on capital, than what the energy companies currently need to meet? If you mothball billions of capital early, and force investment of billions of capital early, it costs real money, not imaginary money. That gets passed down in our energy costs, or a ton of debt for government, it doesn't come out of some imaginary 1% per center fund.

  81. #81

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    Power companies that make money generating power will pay for that. Nobody is guaranteed any level of profit. They either generate profitable electricity within the regulatory framework, or not. They do it now, and they'll continue to do so.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^So the government is paying for it all out of debt? Great - that means taxes longer term. Money trees don't exist, the costs of this will ultimately end up being paid by all of us, including our businesses who are already struggling.
    You keep saying that, but at no point have you pointed to what "it" is? The government isn't in the power business. Power companies build profitable projects and sell us electricity. Other companies build distribution networks and sell the distribution services. The government regulates these things so they can't screw us over.
    So who is paying for this green investment - these billions of dollars in renewable energy? You think people are going to invest billions, and no longer get profits, that somehow NDP can force pension funds in Canada to demand a lower return on capital, than what the energy companies currently need to meet? If you mothball billions of capital early, and force investment of billions of capital early, it costs real money, not imaginary money. That gets passed down in our energy costs, or a ton of debt for government, it doesn't come out of some imaginary 1% per center fund.
    Exactly Moa, thanks for living in the real world

  83. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    So who is paying for this green investment - these billions of dollars in renewable energy?
    The successful winners of the competitions.


    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    You think people are going to invest billions, and no longer get profits, that somehow NDP can force pension funds in Canada to demand a lower return on capital, than what the energy companies currently need to meet?
    This is a stunning display of ignorance about how AESO, the grid & power pool actually works. Power producers set the rate they're willing to accept for their generation capacity, not the government. AESO dispatches orders for power based upon the need in the grid, in escalating order of price. The NDP can't force the power producers to sell their power at an unprofitable rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    If you mothball billions of capital early, and force investment of billions of capital early, it costs real money, not imaginary money. That gets passed down in our energy costs, or a ton of debt for government, it doesn't come out of some imaginary 1% per center fund.
    Coal was already on the cusp of being economically unviable & the cost to pre-emptively shut down the 6 plants before their life cycle is done is only $1.4B over a decade & a half. $97M/year, which is peanuts compared to the forecast revenues from the carbon tax from which it is to be paid (a little less than $2B/year). The other 12 out of 18 plants were already scheduled for replacement with non-coal sources long before the NDP came to power.

    That same carbon tax money will also go into subsidizing the renewable generation's operating costs, allowing it to move forward in the queue to be dispatched. At the same time, the payment of the carbon taxes will force the dirtier non-renewable generation facilities to account for the tax somehow, likely through the raising of rates (vs lower profitability), which will move them backwards in the queue, relatively speaking, shaking up the mix of generation in the province without requiring subsidies from general revenue.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  84. #84

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    We are all going to end up paying more. If not now, then later when taxpayers have to make up shortfalls for these bad ideas.

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    We are all going to end up paying more. If not now, then later when taxpayers have to make up shortfalls for these bad ideas.
    Exactly. I was talking this morning to someone from one of the corporations that cancelled an energy contract because of the new regulations (using the "Enron" clause) - he told me they couldn't believe their luck that the NDP was stupid enough to allow then to trigger their exit clause to get out of a coal contract. Its all going to cost real dollars, just like those renewable investments (when instead it should just be 100% gas) and all those real dollars are going to be passed down via carbon tax and higher energy costs, or to the extent its capped, government debt.

  86. #86

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    Real cost for shutting down the plants early:

    As compensation for the capital that Capital Power invested in coal generating assets that will be “stranded” effective December 31, 2030, Capital Power will receive cash payments from the Province of $52.4 million annually for 14 years, commencing July 31, 2017, for a total of $734 million. Capital Power has agreed to continue to participate in the Alberta electricity market, support the local communities surrounding the coal facilities through 2030, and fulfill its pension and other commitments to employees.
    All of which will be paid for out of the carbon tax, not current taxes or general revenue.

    And in regards to the PPA dispute:

    The Province has also agreed to discontinue its legal action against Capital Power and to arrange for the Balancing Pool to accept Capital Power’s termination of its role as a Buyer of the Sundance C Power Purchase Arrangement (the Arrangement), in accordance with the terms of the Arrangement. In consideration of these actions, Capital Power and its syndicate partners have agreed to pay the Balancing Pool $39 million, of which Capital Power’s portion is $20 million or $15 million after tax.
    Turns out the cancelling of the PPA had a real cost...to Capital Power & its shareholders. Not taxpayers.

    http://www.capitalpower.com/MediaRoo...1-24-2016.aspx
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    That same carbon tax money will also go into subsidizing the renewable generation's operating costs, allowing it to move forward in the queue to be dispatched. At the same time, the payment of the carbon taxes will force the dirtier non-renewable generation facilities to account for the tax somehow, likely through the raising of rates (vs lower profitability), which will move them backwards in the queue, relatively speaking, shaking up the mix of generation in the province without requiring subsidies from general revenue.
    Shouldn't renewable generation have near-zero operating costs, and thus always be at the front of the queue? Shouldn't any subsidies be aimed at reducing the cost of capital to build them?

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    We are all going to end up paying more. If not now, then later when taxpayers have to make up shortfalls for these bad ideas.
    Except... not. As noodle clearly articulated, we have multiple layers of protections to prevent all of that. If someone is telling you prices will skyrocket, ask them for details, and I can assure you they have none. They may point to Ontario and say "look, big bad green energy is bad!" without clarifying that Ontario was stupid and made error after error, none of which can happen in Alberta due to how our system is set up.

    Don't spread FUD without backing it up. So far, everyone that likes what the NDP is doing has backed it up with actual facts, while those that think it will hurt us have provided exactly zero evidence to support that theory.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  89. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    That same carbon tax money will also go into subsidizing the renewable generation's operating costs, allowing it to move forward in the queue to be dispatched. At the same time, the payment of the carbon taxes will force the dirtier non-renewable generation facilities to account for the tax somehow, likely through the raising of rates (vs lower profitability), which will move them backwards in the queue, relatively speaking, shaking up the mix of generation in the province without requiring subsidies from general revenue.
    Shouldn't renewable generation have near-zero operating costs, and thus always be at the front of the queue? Shouldn't any subsidies be aimed at reducing the cost of capital to build them?
    Of course it's not "near zero". Maintenance of any generating plant is high.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    We're talking about wind turbines and solar panels here. They have zero fuel cost, and maintenence costs are independant of whether they are producing power or not. They will need a minimum volume and price to make a positive return on investment, but selling power will always be better than not selling power, regardless of the price.

  91. #91

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    I don't think we need any subsidies at this point. Wind generation is economically viable. The things holding it back are NIMBYism (rightfully so, they're not insignificant) and distribution. It costs a lot to connect wind farms to the network, on a cost/benefit scale. Especially if the wind is nowhere near where the power lines are.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  92. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post

    Shouldn't renewable generation have near-zero operating costs, and thus always be at the front of the queue? Shouldn't any subsidies be aimed at reducing the cost of capital to build them?
    The price per MW generated at current renewable generation facilities in Alberta is currently much higher than coal or natural gas. I can't directly speak to why, but that's the current state of affairs & why the NDP are changing things the way they are.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  93. #93

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    As if we needed even more proof, Michigan's largest power producer is voluntarily moving away from coal even though Trump thinks it's the solution.

    DTE Energy CEO Gerry Anderson said the company plans to phase out the fuel, regardless.

    "I don't know anybody in the country who would build another coal plant," Anderson said.

    According to a February report from the Michigan Public Service Commission, the construction of a new coal plant cost $133 per megawatt hour, while new wind contracts from DTE and Consumers averaged $74.52 per megawatt hour.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post

    Shouldn't renewable generation have near-zero operating costs, and thus always be at the front of the queue? Shouldn't any subsidies be aimed at reducing the cost of capital to build them?
    The price per MW generated at current renewable generation facilities in Alberta is currently much higher than coal or natural gas. I can't directly speak to why, but that's the current state of affairs & why the NDP are changing things the way they are.
    I could see that if they are calculating the full life cycle cost, including construction, but if the marginal cost of producing a MWh with a wind turbine is greater than the marginal cost of producing a MWh with a gas turbine there is something seriously wrong. A wind turbine owner should want to sell as much electricity as the wind turbine can produce at any price.

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    Renewable is already the cheapest option or well on the way. Costs will only keep dropping. To think we are still burning coal. Welcome to 1930s. Future generations will look back and shake their head at all the hand-wringing over getting past coal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post

    Turns out I needed to read more myself. The Delivery cost does have a fixed aspect, but also a variable portion. I retract all my previous concerns.
    Thank you for this courteous post. I wish some others would be as courteous as you.

  97. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post

    Turns out I needed to read more myself. The Delivery cost does have a fixed aspect, but also a variable portion. I retract all my previous concerns.
    Thank you for this courteous post. I wish some others would be as courteous as you.
    That's how everything here should work. More learning, less debating, more intelligent behaviour. Being anonymous should open up the door for changing minds and positions too without it being used against them.

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Renewable is already the cheapest option or well on the way. Costs will only keep dropping. To think we are still burning coal. Welcome to 1930s. Future generations will look back and shake their head at all the hand-wringing over getting past coal.
    That statement raises loads of questions.

    All renewable or some renewable like wind and solar? ...and cheaper when storage and connection costs are included for an apples to apples comparison? Is it the cheapest option or cheaper than some established sources?

    I agree that new technologies should introduce huge efficiency and/or cost improvements, but those changes may occur among old sources as well.

    Also, emerging carbon capture technologies may soon put coal back in the running, putting coal into the 2030s, not 1930s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post

    Turns out I needed to read more myself. The Delivery cost does have a fixed aspect, but also a variable portion. I retract all my previous concerns.
    Thank you for this courteous post. I wish some others would be as courteous as you.
    I'm not always courteous, not nearly as patient as I need to be, and I have a good chunk of this place on ignore, but I try and go in with an open mind and I know how to use google and research actual facts when I try and reply. When noodle persisted and I wanted to tell them they were wrong, I wanted to back it up. Turns out I was wrong and that I learned something new.

    Easier when we're talking facts, not opinions. Easier to admit you're wrong about facts.

    Most of those on ignore, well they ignore facts or make them up to fit their views.

  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I could see that if they are calculating the full life cycle cost, including construction.
    This is exactly how it's calculated. The only way to recoup costs for building generation in Alberta is to sell power to the grid. Dollars for megawatt hours. This is also how the subsidies will work,

    For the first competition, an Indexed Renewable Energy Credit (REC) payment mechanism will be used, where winning bidders are paid a $/MWh payment for renewable attributes that reflects the difference between their bid price and a pool price. This method is preferred as the level of support varies with pool prices, avoiding a situation where windfall gains would flow to the bidder.

    To put that into a picture:

    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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