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Thread: The ALTA Carbon Levy and Rebates

  1. #1

    Default The ALTA Carbon Levy and Rebates

    It's now time for some specifics. What dollar amounts, and on what usage, do you expect to pay? What will you do in response? How much do you expect to save.

    So I received this notice from ENMAX:
    "For 2017, you’ll pay $1.011 per gigajoule (GJ) for the carbon levy, before it increases to $1.517/GJ in 2018. Some Albertans may qualify for Alberta government rebates or exemptions.

    To help you prepare, we’ve developed a carbon levy estimate based on your natural gas usage over the past 12 months. Keep in mind this past winter was mild, so this estimate may be low.

    Last 12 Months of Natural Gas Usage
    "For 2017, you’ll pay $1.011 per gigajoule (GJ) for the carbon levy, before it increases to $1.517/GJ in 2018. Some Albertans may qualify for Alberta government rebates or exemptions.

    To help you prepare, we’ve developed a carbon levy estimate based on your natural gas usage over the past 12 months. Keep in mind this past winter was mild, so this estimate may be low.

    Last 12 Months of Natural Gas Usage
    {usage gragh}
    If the 2017 Alberta government carbon levy was applied to your last
    12 months of natural gas usage, your costs would have been about
    $112 more that year.
    There's really not much at all that I can do to reduce my household natural gas consumption. I could go from my mid efficiency to high efficiency furnaces but that won't save an appreciable amount.
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2016 at 08:30 AM.

  2. #2
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    ^

    the difference between the carbon tax and a sales tax like the gst or hst is that the carbon tax is cumulative and has no mechanism to provide "input tax credits". sales taxes are only paid once by the final/end consumer. because its cumulative the carbon tax becomes a tax on a tax on a tax on a tax... furthermore, the low income earner rebates are an illusion buying votes, not rebating tax, in that municipalities still need to recover what they're paying go provide everything from snow removal to transit just like school boards and hospitals and charities etc. all need to recover the additional costs from somewhere as well...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    the difference between the carbon tax and a sales tax like the gst or hst is that the carbon tax is cumulative and has no mechanism to provide "input tax credits". sales taxes are only paid once by the final/end consumer. because its cumulative the carbon tax becomes a tax on a tax on a tax on a tax... furthermore, the low income earner rebates are an illusion buying votes, not rebating tax, in that municipalities still need to recover what they're paying go provide everything from snow removal to transit just like school boards and hospitals and charities etc. all need to recover the additional costs from somewhere as well...
    Good points. However, are there many inputs prior to consumption? Does it apply to conversion as in turning feedstock into plastics, etc?

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    the difference between the carbon tax and a sales tax like the gst or hst is that the carbon tax is cumulative and has no mechanism to provide "input tax credits". sales taxes are only paid once by the final/end consumer. because its cumulative the carbon tax becomes a tax on a tax on a tax on a tax...
    I don't believe that is correct, carbon taxes have an exemption system, such that they apply to the end user. Very similar to a PST. A company that buys fuel for resale will often be able to get an exemption.

    http://www.alberta.ca/climate-carbon-pricing.aspx

    But a company that buys fuel to combust will not, normally. There is a lot of complexity around registering, and due to the different large emitter rules, there are some weird scenarios where large corporations that combust more might actually pay less tax per fuel combusted than a smaller company that emitted less. Maybe that's not surprising given a handful of very large corporations stood on stage with Notley and cheered this tax?

    As an aside, not sure why we have two threads on same topic:

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...te-Change-Plan
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-11-2016 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^



    As an aside, not sure why we have two threads on same topic:

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...te-Change-Plan


    There. I've corrected my opening post by removing my BTW which, by the way, I thought stood for: by the way. Sorry for the huge distraction.








    For the record, here's most of what I cut. How do I grey-shade text?
    potentially viable alternative to a broad based 'provincial sales tax'. Sales taxes in Alberta are not new though, as we've paid various sales taxes already - for years! Moreover we already have had a carbon levy too. The government though needs a more stable and predictable source of revenue if it is going to stop the insanity of relying on and highly volatile royalties. On the positive side via rebates much of this money will cycle right back into the Alberta economy where it will be immediately spent. Reductions in oil and gas consumption will allow Alberta to export what we don't burn here, which will turn a cost item into a profit item.


    As an aside, maybe all this time we've all been overlooking the greatest ADHD diagnostic tool ever: forum threads.
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2016 at 08:38 AM.

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    If they truly want to make a difference, they should rebate it back in the form of efficiency upgrades rebates, similar to the eco-energy rebates at the federal level a few years back. Or provide rebates to electric/hydrid vehicles such that there is no price difference between them and their regular counterparts. Just rebating it back so that people can blow that money on consumption stuff isn't going to make a difference or change behaviours.

    For 2017, our gas bill will increase by just over $5 a month. That's not worth mentioning. Family of 4 in a large SFH.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    If they truly want to make a difference, they should rebate it back in the form of efficiency upgrades rebates, similar to the eco-energy rebates at the federal level a few years back. Or provide rebates to electric/hydrid vehicles such that there is no price difference between them and their regular counterparts. Just rebating it back so that people can blow that money on consumption stuff isn't going to make a difference or change behaviours.

    For 2017, our gas bill will increase by just over $5 a month. That's not worth mentioning. Family of 4 in a large SFH.
    It might your household decisions in small ways such as fewer loads of laundry and dishes, maybe skip a shower or have more showers together (in the name of efficiency of course)... In the summer that is. In the winters the hot water tank serves as a furnace and much of the heat enters the house (displacing the gas furnace) before going down the drain. There are upstream carbon reductions though in terms of treatment and pumping I suppose.


    I can see people in older homes taking any efficiency credits and siding their homes with added insulation. However, foam over stucco leaves an air gap and I doubt if that EVER gets properly sealed, thus letting heat rise up and into the overhang's soffit and out through the attic.

    So new siding with foam board probably a cuts summer A/C load but does little to save on winter heating costs.
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2016 at 11:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    In the winters the hot water tank serves as a furnace and much of the heat enters the house (displacing the gas furnace) before going down the drain. There are upstream carbon reductions though in terms of treatment and pumping I suppose.


    I can see people in older homes taking any efficiency credits and siding their homes with added insulation. However, foam over stucco leaves an air gap and I doubt if that EVER gets properly sealed, thus letting heat rise up and into the overhang's soffit and out through the attic.

    So new siding with foam board probably a cuts summer A/C load but does little to save on winter heating costs.
    I don't think that's correct. There's certainly heat losses from the tank to the basement, but some of it will go out the flue/vent. Additionally the more water you use, the more you lose in heat going down the drain. Adding a DWHR unit to your main stack helps, but has a long payback at current gas prices. Maybe with the carbon taxes it gets more attractive. If you can install it yourself, it's about $500. Installed maybe 900. It only works for continuous supply/drain uses like showers.

    Adding attic insulation, insulating rim joists, new windows, high eff furnaces, planting trees and bushes to reduce heat loss from wind.
    We got one of those ultra low flow shower heads (1.5 GPM) and they are fantastic. Great pressure and flow (if that makes sense). Downside is that it takes a long time for the water to warm up initially since the flow is so low.

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    I calculated the payback of a DWHR at over 25 years for my household, but I put one in anyways for its ability to increase the recovery rate of my water heater. At 6 L/minute (1.5 GPM) I will never run out of hot water. At 10 L/min the hot water lasts 15 minutes or so, but even then it just goes lukewarm and is hot again 15 minutes later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I calculated the payback of a DWHR at over 25 years for my household, but I put one in anyways for its ability to increase the recovery rate of my water heater. At 6 L/minute (1.5 GPM) I will never run out of hot water. At 10 L/min the hot water lasts 15 minutes or so, but even then it just goes lukewarm and is hot again 15 minutes later.
    We did the same calculation when we built our house this year and came to the same calculation. This was before carbon taxes were announced. Given the design of our house, we wouldn't have gotten full benefit since we could only install one on one of the plumbing stacks (we have two). If you're heating water with electricity (as they do out east), there is definitely a benefit.

    If one has baths or even short showers, there's not much benefit to a DWHR. It's only use is for long hot showers really.

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    Carbon tax can be bad news for Canada. look what happened in Austraila

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/austral...ears-1.2709642
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    Carbon tax can be bad news for Canada. look what happened in Austraila

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/austral...ears-1.2709642
    Yeah, it's like raising taxes to fix infrastructure deficits, making social security sustainable, preparing for the aging of baby boom bulge, lessening Alberta's reliance on oil royalties, etc.

    People prefer lower taxes now, even when there's a fairly high probability of an even greater cost in the future. Just think of 1990s Aberta where every little tax increase was an uphill battle.

  13. #13

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    For all their claims to be hard-working, can-do people, Alberta conservatives sure like to imagine that a tiny change will do them in and whine that we should just give up if one individual contribution won't save the world.
    There can only be one.

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    Any thoughts on tankless hot water heaters versus regular tank natural gas heaters? The tankless options can get a rebate of up to $1000 but the cons seem to outweigh the pros from what I have been reading. We are looking to replace our tank soon and would love some opinions, tanks in advance lol.

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    There's another thread on here from the last couple months where they were discussed a bit, try looking for that one.

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    Thanks Marcel

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